Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Nov 2010 06:40

[/quote]
Hmmm....what were the principles?[/quote]

Gurusji whatever are the principles at that time now it is -

Italian "family" comes first and last.

most of this tapes are on you tube. Down load before they are also gone. I got Burkha and vir.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Nov 2010 07:05

shiv wrote:
SwamyG wrote:A serious question. How do these guys steal or accept bribes involving huge amounts of money? It is not like they have hard currency notes in a suitcase under their bed or backyard, right? A dissident from their own camp can alert IT folks.

Wrong. Money is stored and exchanged in bags/suitcases. Dissidents are paid off. IT folks are paid off. Or threatened. With the police under the thumb of a corrupt state politico - people can and do get bumped off. India is a corrupt country. Period.

Don't have any lllusions to the contrary. That is why all supporters of any major party make me laugh. They are all corrupt.

Agreed. I have no illusions. But then why are people like Subramania Swamy still alive. I might not agree with all that he says but I would like him to be safe and alive. He has been a pain in the ass of several politicians.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2010 07:08

RamaY wrote:
Nice excuse for inaction. If we can piscolocize everything there is no need for progress. We must justify lack of toilets and be happy.

Go ahead and act sir. No need to talk to me or address me at all. It's a waste of time. You only get satisfaction from saying something different - but you will do zilch. The outermost limits of your power extend to being critical of me. You too make me laugh. I sometimes read your posts for that reason.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Nov 2010 07:16

BTW, who have been recording all these tapes?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Nov 2010 07:23

^^

CBI. They are part of evidence submitted to Supreme Court. In their response, the Open Magazine says they went to press because the tapes are now part of public record.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 20 Nov 2010 07:32

Barkha Dutt's statement that journalists do not influence govt formation is laughable. What is apparent from the tapes she is not a journalist but a fixer (at least part time). She might have been a journalist at some point but from the tapes she appears to have graduated beyond that.

As someone pointed out, some of new thinking of these eminent journalists on Kashmir could be coming from people trying to mould public opinion.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Nov 2010 07:34

hmm I missed all the fun on BR being bizy this whole week.

I am confuzed why these tapes are a big deal. See the structure of our media and when they come from "sources" with an intention to make the news BIG, it becomes seven page story on BR too. However, extremely longtime back Daily Pioneer (the dirty hindutva supporting news paper run on shoe string budgets ) ran a story as early as 2006 about Raja. There was no action and he became minister again in UPA-2.

The public life has become so shameless. Even the mighty Rajiv Gandhi was defeated due to corruption during the previous generation. The current India did not care to defeat the dirty government in 2009. I am not saying the alternative is great but the electorate has atleast a check on these guys. The confidence of "nothing will happen" even exposed brought to this level.

The tapes of Rada-the lobbyist and Raja hitting the journalists in Chennnai airport are all shown on HT TV about six months back too. Then also there was no discussion in public life.

When corruption should be discussed or make it a big isssue and when it should not be an issue is orchestrated in a planned way. As I said earlier, this time too the tapes came first from Outlook magazine. Anything coming form Outlook or The Week will have FULL approval from Gandhi family. That is the drift.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2010 07:45

SwamyG wrote: Agreed. I have no illusions. But then why are people like Subramania Swamy still alive. I might not agree with all that he says but I would like to be safe and alive. He has been a pain in the ass of several politicians.

There are many people with conscience, but the political system is dirty. The reason I compared with Pakistan but said that we are not yet there is that murders and intimidation have not yet gone to the extent that they have gone in Pakistan. We have a judicial system that works somewhat. We do have some upright judges and some upright officials and politicians. There are some non corrupt corporate bodies.

One reason why I strongly agree with brihaspati's call for not blindly smearing individuals is that every individual who enters politics in India is smeared. That makes the act of entering politics difficult. One has to face a few criminal charges to understand how the system works and what bends the system. No wonder the most corrupt find it easy to survive in politics. Even if you are not corrupt you will automatically be accused falsely. You cannot be a politician and have a clean image. For people like us - the clean image is important. We would rather die than be considered criminals or as being corrupt. So politics becomes a no-no for squeamish cowards like us, leaving the field open for the people who are most comfortable while bring accused of being criminals.

But if you think about it - we need to look out for people who may not be corrupt in politics rather than smearing everybody. However that becomes difficult because of the party system where one party gains from declaring everyone in the other party corrupt. Since the people anyway consider all politicians as corrupt - any politician of any party will have supporters who will agree with him in describing someone else as corrupt.

The fact is corruption starts from the ground level up. The way I see it is that my duty is to reduce corruption at my level where I can do something. I can do something at local level by electing non corrupt politicians and ensuring clean governance where government impinges on society around me. But this is not the only way. Others have other ideas and priorities. Everyone must do what he or she can.

Money and bribery start from the business and corporate level and extend to government. Some corporations and businesses are more corrupt than others but we often do not check them because the benefit us personally. In the field of medicine - the company that sells a substandard drug at cut rate prices and allows the drug store the largest profit margins gets more business than the pure drug seller who can only offer higher margins. In turn the profits are channelled into bribing doctors with gifts and free tickets to conferences in exotic destinations, or in contributing to the organization of conferences by buying exhibition stall space.

Examples are endless and the corruption thread in the hijab forum was to talk about the way corruption pervades society. You can be as honest as you like but fighting corruption makes you lose time and money. For example - you need to renew a driver's licence after age 50. You go to the office and they tell you that they have run out of (free) application forms. But just outside the office a man on the pavement sells the same forms for Rs 20 each. He is paying money to the chap in the government office who cannot be blamed because the government office has "run out" of forms. Either you pay Rs 20 and feed the system, or re visit the office 2-3 times, taking time off from work to get the free forms at a time when they may be available. The really honest fighters and the poorest people will do exactly that. Most people who translate time into money will just pay.

Sorry. OT

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Nov 2010 07:47

SwamyG wrote:
New Delhi: In the backdrop of a number of high-level scams, Congress President Sonia Gandhi on Friday said "graft and greed" are on the rise, putting in danger the principles on which independent India was founded and stressed the need for a "more effective and efficient" government.
Hmmm....what were the principles?

Family first
Party second
Country last

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2010 07:49

Airavat wrote:
Family first
Party second
Country last

Family first
Community/caste second
Party third
Country...what country?

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 20 Nov 2010 07:56

I have been downloading from http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268069

I have done around 35 odd downloads from the top in the above page. Can some begin from "Imp- MK Vinu-20090709-084733 "

But there more pages like:

The Ratan Tata, Barkha Dutt & Other Tapes : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268068

The Vir Sanghvi- Niira Radia Tapes : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268066

The Raja-Radia Tapes : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268064

The Kanimozhi-Radia Tapes : http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268065

Guys can we share the download work? We can then create a repository and then map people & things (as ramana ji has suggested)

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 20 Nov 2010 08:08

RamaY wrote:
shiv wrote:Don't have any lllusions to the contrary. That is why all supporters of any major party make me laugh. They are all corrupt.
Nice excuse for inaction. If we can piscolocize everything there is no need for progress. We must justify lack of toilets and be happy.

arjunm wrote: Look at the audacity of bloody her to call whole India greedy and corrupt ,the fact of the matter is is the damn Congress party under her is becoming more greedy and corrupt .Unable to bring honest governance in Congress rule states, her party men and the coalition partners have increasingly engaged in loot bonanza as if there is no tomorrow. Bloody one scam after another just keep coming, be it NGRE (60,000 crores),Adrsha housing Scam, CWG scam(70,000 cr), and just wait for the big defence contracts, God knws what % she and her retarded son have decided to settle for, and after all that, she with a bindi spotted straight face declare whole India is becoming corrupt and Greedy.We need a public outrage to throw her and her party out of power.
You forgot mother of all scams by late YSR. His gang of congressmen stole '00,000 crores and virtually funded 2009 congress win at center.

Yeah, you are right Rama Yji, I saw her sobbing in an interview she gave at that time after the immediate news of the death of YSR in a plane crash. YSR was her right hand man in the south and also a fellow Christian that one other thng that matters to her most.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Nov 2010 08:21

shiv wrote: There are many people with conscience, but the political system is dirty. The reason I compared with Pakistan but said that we are not yet there is that murders and intimidation have not yet gone to the extent that they have gone in Pakistan. We have a judicial system that works somewhat. We do have some upright judges and some upright officials and politicians. There are some non corrupt corporate bodies.

Either you pay Rs 20 and feed the system, or re visit the office 2-3 times, taking time off from work to get the free forms at a time when they may be available. The really honest fighters and the poorest people will do exactly that. Most people who translate time into money will just pay.

Sorry. OT

One more OT. Please check the website below to get an idea. Roughly, 1800 people reported paying bribe, 200 people reported not paying bribe and 80 people reported as did not have to pay bribe. A quick glance shows, about 80 situations out of 2000 situations did not warrant bribe.
http://ipaidabribe.com/
Anyways, post away on the website, if you feel like. Every small step helps.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Nov 2010 08:31

RamaY wrote:
If MMS is any smart, he should implicate both mother and son so an end is put to this tamasha...

Exactly. The Samson option.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 20 Nov 2010 08:33

RamaY wrote:nkumar garu,

Please do not take my response as criticism against you. I am just offering a different POV. You can take my posts to task if they do not make sense.

People think that they are honest if they do not take money. But what about them watching others steal thousands of crores of public money? Does it constitute financial integrity? One should see MMS from that reference.

What value he has to take the job of PM, with no hold on the party nor on the cabinet colleagues? Why is he working ~20 hrs/day at this age when he can happily retire. What makes him get up in the morning and face the nonsense from RG/SG and their coterie?

Let me give you a scenario. If you were in MMS's shoes, would you sacrifice your PM seat if it results in say Rs 170,000 crore savings to GOI (That is ~$40B) and puts say top 10 corrupt leaders behind bars?

Let me raise your value a bit. How about your ability to bring say $150B of corrupt money from foreign banks to India paying up all external debts of this nation???

What more value MMS thinks he is giving the nation? What more (even if it is self-satisfaction) value he is getting by staying in his position.

***

In another thread people were talking about what would a common man do in such a situation? I would welcome a different PM every 5 years if they do one thing at a time. A JK here, A UCC there, A universal-education here, a universal health care there, a nuclear triad here, a LCA there, a renewable energy source here, a highway network there.... and the list goes on...

RamaY saar...me no garu...just a chella

I did not took your response as a criticism, I was just clarifying my stand on MMS. I don't know why our PM wants to be a puppet PM, what pleasure or pride he derives from that. It is shameful actually.

I agree with you there are tons of thing missing in the way MMS has behaved. In the first place, someone who is accountable to the people of India should have been the PM, not someone thrust on the junta from back door entry. Worst thing is that now the precedent has been set. Best MMS can do right now is to put everything on record in parliament and resign.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 20 Nov 2010 09:03

Look at the gem of legal experts representing our honourable PM -
In the matter of Supreme court's inquiry in inaction in granting sanctions in prosecuting scam star Raja, honorable PM's legal team will be headed by Attorney General Vahanbati who has already been tainted in suppressing vital evidence earlier while representing A Raja in Delhi high Court-

Documents available with The Pioneer show that Vahanvati, while appearing on behalf of Raja, had concealed the fact in the Delhi High Court that the Prime Minister had directed the former Telecom Minister to keep in abeyance the 2G spectrum allotments and consider transparent auction. Suppressing the PM’s direction, Vahanvati had submitted in the court only Raja’s letter to the PM to create the impression that Raja had PM’s concurrence on 2G spectrum allotment.

Vahanvati’s role in Raja’s dubious spectrum allotment was first exposed by The Pioneer. The newspaper had cited a December 26, 2007, letter of Raja to the PM that he (Raja) was “enlightened” by Pranab Mukherjee and Vahanvati to go ahead with the allotment. “In these circumstances, the discussions with the External Affairs Minister and the Solicitor General of India have further enlightened me to take a pre-emptive and pro-active decision on these issues as per the guidelines and rules framed there under to avoid any further confusion and delay,” Raja wrote to the Prime Minister. Vahanvati was then the Solicitor General.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/297861/PM-u ... shows.html

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 20 Nov 2010 09:05

shiv,

Interesting take as allways. Just to share my own experience FWIW. When I mention to some of my friends that I went enrolled as a primary member in the BJP, the first questions are Why? What is wrong with you? Politics, are you crazy? You won't last long?

Then comes the usual, Why BJP? They are no different, they are corrupt too. You can't make a difference. All of them are corrupt etc.

Although nothing much has progressed, thanks largely due to my inability to participate and allocate time, though I am trying to be at least a week end politician, seeing some of the press conferences, and based on my interactions, I can say one thing for sure. There are quite a few decent men and women in political parties. They have been uniformly encouraging and welcoming people like me, who have had no political background coming in.

They seek me out for ideas, take criticisms and suggestions. I have also found that there are a lot of very intelligent people. They may not speak English or management jargon, but they do have clear ideas and ways of getting things done. They are also very aware of issues. Many of them are eager to learn more, get into technicalities of even something as legal clauses on nuclear liability bill without having any background. And they grasp quickly.

Of the media, I am disappointed, some of them are good and understand issues, come up openly and say, yes what you say is true, but we cannot say that on our paper/outlet. But we can help where we can, can you come and talk to us. Many of them are mercenary. They are there for the money, for the freebies, for the food and liquor. Many do not display the intelligence that political workers show. Almost all are arrogant. They do not understand issues at all. They do not read what is given. They take no effort to improve themselves.

This is just based on my experience. I am sure that the Congress too has such well meaning and sincere people. In DMK and AIADMK too. I was surprised by some of the smaller parties in TN. Their leadership were open to me coming and talking to their folks on National Security.

Overall, my view is this. The much maligned politcal class is better than the media. There is corruption and the system is such that no party can be totally free of corruption or vested interests. Even the sincere and well meaning ones or the idealists will have to compromise. But that does not being totally blind to such things and being a total hypocrite. That is where the fine line is.

RayC once posted here, that it is easy to sit and say what we want, but what is needed is action. That is what spurred me to give this politics thingy a try. It is hard. I have not had the courage to go full hog at it. I have only tipped my toes in the water (or cess pool as some may call it). What I find is that there are people who will help you. But it takes a lot of mental toughness to be true to yourself and join full time. In my case, I am still struggling to make such a decision.

In 2002, I took a decision to come back to India. That was easy. This one of trying politics is a lot tougher. Gentle rakshaks, there are a lot of you here who can make a difference, whatever is your prediliction, join one of the parties and see for yourself. Or join some of the outreach forums of the political parties, if you still do not want to associate directly. Then you will realise that to change, you should be ready to work for it.

I am sure that the Congress, like the BJP will give ample opportunities to try it. Although I have not tried interacting with them too much.

Sorry for the OT post. Shiv's post triggered in me a desire to share my experience.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2010 09:05

JwalaMukhi wrote: http://ipaidabribe.com/
Anyways, post away on the website, if you feel like. Every small step helps.

I spoke to the creators of the website in Bangalore last week to register a complaint about the site. It required (at that time) the download of software called "Microsoft Silverlight" to work and I use Linux. They apologised and said that they are in the process of shifting to Adobe.

Seems OK now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2010 09:18

The problem about attacking Sonia Gandhi personally is that it will cause the supporters who benefit from the name of the "first family" to benefit. I saw an interesting (and boring

) program last week in which Manish Tiwari of Congress had a ball criticizing Arnab Goswami for saying something against MMS, successfully diverting the topic from the Adarsh discussion.

I may be a murderer and pedophile myself - but if you make the mistake of criticizing my leader (instead or criticizing me) I am on safe ground. My position is safe and I will fight to support my leader. That is what happens when people attack Sonia Gandhi. The family survives on the stupidity and myopia of its opponents who attack figureheads rather than attacking the sycophant supporters. Figureheads are protected as being clean. The real dirt is always with the lower downs who remain anonymous.

Who the fck is this Niira woman anyway? Has anyone heard of her?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 20 Nov 2010 09:23

Rahul Mehta wrote: Thanks ShivaS . And Yes ArmenT, please include this term in BRF dictionary, along with usage. I doubt if you can include sentence "Who accidented YSR", given that MA's name is rumored to be one of the key players. So pls use some other sentence. And pls also add the word "suicided" . [eg Asthana, the clerk who was witness against 35 judges' money siphoning in Ghaziabad PF scam, was sucided in Ghaziabad prison. He was sucided via poison, and rumors say that 3 Supreme Court judges, who were accused, sucided him. ]

Done sir.
http://sites.google.com/site/brfdiction ... accidented
http://sites.google.com/site/brfdiction ... s/suicided
I did include the sentence "Who accidented YSR" in the notes. Just out of curiosity, who is MA? Ambani senior?

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 20 Nov 2010 09:28

Money trail by CBI-

The CBI probe into the spectrum scam has traced the dubious telecom firms’ money trail to countries like the UAE, Mauritius and Cyprus.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/297858/Spec ... s-CBI.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Nov 2010 10:21

arjunm wrote:Money trail by CBI

The CBI probe into the spectrum scam has traced the dubious telecom firms’ money trail to countries like the UAE, Mauritius and Cyprus.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/297858/Spec ... s-CBI.html

I have seen the scandals history and details starting from Bofors onwards. I have keenly observed how the politics and especially media are shaped around scandals.

If investigated impartially, I am sure that money would have flown into some friends, benamis and relatives of Gandhis. It is just that history is repeating itself.

I can with full confidence say that most of the media that we have now is the worst may be since independence.

Bias towards the men in power is always there but still the systems inside media worked towards good. When Bofors scandal came out, Arun Shourie was Dy.Editor and Prime Editor was close friend of Gandhi family and his name is Suman Dubey. IE asked Suman to go as he was not willing to go extra step in publishing the investigative portions. He resigned and Shourie took over. Under him several scandal were brought to light on a daily basis. RG government had fallen. Similarly when N.Ram published using Chitra Subhramanium's expose of Bofors' dairies where the references to late Mr.G were clearly there, there was fued in the family between N.Kasturi and N.Ram. Hindu paper did not come out for a week. Chitra has publised them via IE. But still better sense prevailed in the Hindu and finally N.Ram continued with his investigative pieces.

Media houses being very close to congress or publish anti-establishment is norm those days. Public had confidence in the media and hence they really used to take it seriously and even the mighty governments did fall because of media stories. Ministers, CMs did resign. In summary the system of "expose" did work.

What happened after BJP became prime time in the national politics (Initally after the fall of VP singh government and more after PVNR government's fall), there was an ideology based challenege to the media folks. Using the western construct of left Vs Right, 99.999% of the journalists and their clerks/staff are either left or left of center. The so called "left of center" are all nothing but congress friends. The ideological challenge is that do anything but let us make sure that BJP does not get advantage. To all these folks that has become national interest as opposed to having an independent path to expose the wrong doings of the government. This mindset has destroyed the earlier systems of media and in this pursit they make a lot of press about any failing from BJP folks. They even go to an extent of exposing "cash for questions in parl" which is like taking 20,000 rupees to question on certain issues in parliament. They are ready to expose the peanuts because it is BJP. Media became extremely corrupt and they just took the "saving the ideology" as cover for all the wrong doing. It is in a way like that of Paki ideology. You can rape and wash off sins if the victim is kafir.

In this pursuit over the last decade or so they just became part of the corrupt political system by just overly concentrating on BJP. The two UPA governments had many tectonic levels of corruption incidents which are completely in the public domain but none wanted to take an extra step like that of Shourie, Chitra Subramaniam or like N.Ram. They ignored so that BJP does not get advantage. Even today when Raja's expose is inevitable, they have to balance it by means of land deals of Yeddiurappa.

If it was 80s the media would have directly blamed Sonia Gandhi as accountable. The current media is so cautious to call PM is accountable and no way they will even say a word against Gandhis.

Urban middle class is the reason for change in India in the 70s against emergency, 80s/early 90s against corruption. This class was a keen reader of news papers of that times and influence was great. It was always their agitations that led the nation and later rural mindset in influencing and creating the required anti-incumbancy or the change.

In today's strategy, the media was able to succesfully pump-in that BJP's ideology is wrong and need to keep them out of power "at any cost". This success story is the main reason for people not thinking of even changing the government as a punishment as they are convinced that corruption is okay as compared to demon called communal-BJP. The movements against corruption get very less press and prominance which was not the case in earlier days.

The rot that has set inside media houses is so deep and they have become part of the power structure. Now in these tapes revelation, I see that this as having a potential for change. Now media has an oppurtunity to do serious thinking and they can comeout of the shell. They themselves stand exposed. Thre may be good afterall.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Nov 2010 10:31

shiv wrote:The family survives on the stupidity and myopia of its opponents who attack figureheads rather than attacking the sycophant supporters. Figureheads are protected as being clean. The real dirt is always with the lower downs who remain anonymous.

An astute observation. Be it DMK, Congress or any other party that exhibits characteristic of dynasty, it is the coterie around the kings and queens that support them. Without the support of this inner ring, the kings and queens will be powerless. But without these kings and queens from whose shadows these people benefit, they would be nobody. It is symbiotic relation. The inner circle has an outer circle and network to get their dirty work done. Defanging these chamchas is a must for any reform.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Nov 2010 10:33

shiv wrote:There are many people with conscience, but the political system is dirty. The reason I compared with Pakistan but said that we are not yet there is that murders and intimidation have not yet gone to the extent that they have gone in Pakistan. We have a judicial system that works somewhat. We do have some upright judges and some upright officials and politicians. There are some non corrupt corporate bodies.

I'd say India is becoming more like the USA in this respect. In that corruption no longer causes huge impact because too many people are on the take in one way or the other, and the economy has provided many legal avenues of deriving benefit from being involved in governing. If the middle class is punch drunk on escalating real estate values or 8% growth and the Sensex, the poor have their NREGA, so why begrudge the Raja or MMS his share of the pie.

Only time people will care is when it impacts their pocketbooks i.e. when the economy suffers, they lose their jobs and the government dole falls behind inflation.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Nov 2010 10:35

Muppalla wrote:

What happened after BJP became prime time in the national politics (Initally after the fall of VP singh government and more after PVNR government's fall), there was an ideology based challenege to the media folks. Using the western construct of left Vs Right, 99.999% of the journalists and their clerks/staff are either left or left of center. The so called "left of center" are all nothing but congress friends. The ideological challenge is that do anything but let us make sure that BJP does not get advantage. To all these folks that has become national interest as opposed to having an independent path to expose the wrong doings of the government. This mindset has destroyed the earlier systems of media and in this pursit they make a lot of press about any failing from BJP folks. They even go to an extent of exposing "cash for questions in parl" which is like taking 20,000 rupees to question on certain issues in parliament. They are ready to expose the peanuts because it is BJP. Media became extremely corrupt and they just took the "saving the ideology" as cover for all the wrong doing. It is in a way like that of Paki ideology. You can rape and wash off sins if the victim is kafir.

THis is good history. Now connect the media money and paid news which started to enter this and how even external countries such as Pak and other countries could sway public opinion in the name of "saving the ideology". This was pushed into anti-India and anti-Hindu during the 2004 campaign which resulted in the Kanchi seer controversy.
Anybody who wanted to take advantage of this media manipulation figured out that they can really do serious damage to the Indian/Hindu ethos in the country. They got the confidence and invited the foriegn NGO/EJ and maoists into the ring.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Nov 2010 10:41

shiv wrote:The family survives on the stupidity and myopia of its opponents who attack figureheads rather than attacking the sycophant supporters. Figureheads are protected as being clean. The real dirt is always with the lower downs who remain anonymous.

This is not completely true. During UPA-1 and leading to 2009 polls, BJP attacked MMS calling him puppet etc. It attacked national-security handling. It still lost. As a post mortem, everyone said attacking the most gentlest-man MMS is the reason for the backfire. Gandhis were spared and only the internet warriors (who really does not matter much) were after Gandhis. The perception that there is a lot of opposition that blames Gandhi heads is not true. As others have put it - there are smart folks in all parties.

Tid bit - when the party candidates of TDP go to campaigning, the strict rule is not to blame or even criticise Gandhis. They only criticise the local leaders and candidates. The belief is that criticising Gandhis in rural areas only makes them lose votes.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Nov 2010 10:46

So how to make the Gandhis irrelevant in politics. That is the question that ought to be discussed. Leting them fade into obscurity is the best solution for the nation.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 20 Nov 2010 11:35

Muppallaji good analysis. I think this news is planted by the Congress Bureau of Investigation at madam's behest to deflect the real money trail. In an NDTV interview Swami insisted that just mere resignation of a foot soldier would not end the culpability of the real crime.The real issue is to find out who are the stake holders of the rest 90 % of the loot after Raja got his 10 %.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Nov 2010 11:55

Subramaniam Swamy said on NDTV that now is not a good time for mid-term polls - first the EVM issue needs to be sorted out.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Nov 2010 12:07

Congress appoints only tainted people to positions of power, then its easier to control them
CVC is a tainted
Election commissioner Navin Chawla is tainted ( runs scam NGO, leaked details of EC meetings, during emergency imposed by congress acted as congress goon)
Governor Bhardwaj is tainted (bofors scam)
and now corrupt person is as appointed as Attorney General

Swamy objects to Vahanvati’s appearance in SC http://www.deccanherald.com/content/114 ... ce-sc.html

Janata Party president Subramaniam Swamy, who has approached the Supreme Court seeking sanction for the prosecution of A Raja, on Friday said he would object to Attorney General Ghulam Vahanvati’s appearance in the court if it has anything to do with the spectrum scam.

“If Vahanvati pleads for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, then I have no problem. But if he speaks on spectrum then it is a violation of law. Because Raja has written a letter to the PM on December 26 saying he got the advice from the then Solicitor General Vahanvati,” he said.

Swamy was reacting to reports that Vahanvati has replaced Solicitor General Gopal Subramanium in the Supreme Court. He said according to the rules governing SG’s service, the Solicitor General cannot render advice unless the law ministry asks for it. “He (SG) cannot do it on his own. So (Vahanvati) he cannot argue on spectrum. He can plead for the PM, I have no objection.”

On the Congress saying that there should be a complaint lodged with the magistrate first for holding an inquiry, Swamy said: “Why SC judges did not say so. Who is this Congress spokesperson who says so. Those who do not know law would say so.”

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 20 Nov 2010 14:28

The Radia Papers– Raja, Tata, Ambani connection

http://indiasreport.com/magazine/data/t ... onnection/

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Nov 2010 14:40

Muppalla wrote:hmm I missed all the fun on BR being bizy this whole week.

I am confuzed why these tapes are a big deal. See the structure of our media and when they come from "sources" with an intention to make the news BIG, it becomes seven page story on BR too. However, extremely longtime back Daily Pioneer (the dirty hindutva supporting news paper run on shoe string budgets ) ran a story as early as 2006 about Raja. There was no action and he became minister again in UPA-2.

The public life has become so shameless. Even the mighty Rajiv Gandhi was defeated due to corruption during the previous generation. The current India did not care to defeat the dirty government in 2009. I am not saying the alternative is great but the electorate has atleast a check on these guys. The confidence of "nothing will happen" even exposed brought to this level.

The tapes of Rada-the lobbyist and Raja hitting the journalists in Chennnai airport are all shown on HT TV about six months back too. Then also there was no discussion in public life.

When corruption should be discussed or make it a big isssue and when it should not be an issue is orchestrated in a planned way. As I said earlier, this time too the tapes came first from Outlook magazine. Anything coming form Outlook or The Week will have FULL approval from Gandhi family. That is the drift.

It is a big deal because:

Hearing vague talk that such things happen is very different from actual concrete directly verifiable evidence of corruption in the form of everyday normal sounding conversations between people is very powerful. Before listening to some of the tapes tonight I had some hope that maybe the story was exaggerated. B. Raman was saying the same thing on his blog, the transcripts were inaccurate and interpolated where the tape was not clear etc. It is a very human thing to want to believe in some corner of the mind that such casual disregard of ethics is not the norm, but the truth cannot be evaded when the evidence is so stark.

I only listened to a few segments. From what I listened to, I think B. Raman is absolutely wrong on this one. Barkha Dutt is so obviously a fixer, she has no business calling herself a reporter. Vir Singhvi has a very slight shred of plausible deniability--he discusses what sort of slant he would put on his article / interview, but he could claim he was just encouraging Radia to talk.

It is interesting that Sonia Gandhi goes public blaming Indian people as a whole for becoming corrupt and greedy, when it is the ruling coterie and their journalistic sidekicks that are the culprits. The real question is, with such stark evidence, what is the Indian public going to do about it all? The rulers and journos seem to be betting on a big fat nothing.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 20 Nov 2010 14:52

Hence the slogan

" A million mafia ruling Billion people"

Folks due to Ratan Tata medeling in G waves will Tata Venture get delayed?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Nov 2010 15:02

AjayKK wrote:The Radia Papers– Raja, Tata, Ambani connection

http://indiasreport.com/magazine/data/t ... onnection/

This woman is way too powerful and connected, including CPI-M leaders ! Not much will happen to her. How did she manage to develop such contacts ?

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 20 Nov 2010 15:10

shiv wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote: Societies that have better management process for these issues progress. Well for others pakistaniyat will be the result.
Well said. The differences between India and Pakistan are surprisingly small. People just do not want to believe it. Enforcement of the simple ethical values dharma is the only way forward. Lies and corruption need exceptinal punishment. Every Indian knows how bad lies and corruption can be but the punishment in our folklore is far more stringent than the punishment in the British inspired Indian Penal Code that allows the corrupt to get away.

With the (mera) Adarsh scam we are even Generally equal equal onlee. TSPakis in general are a little ahead of us.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 20 Nov 2010 15:11

A quick check on Google shows that the MSN (India), India Today, Outlook and ExpressBuzz in the mainstream media (besides some blogs and smaller websites) are at least showing the news related to 2G Spectrum Scam Tapes (with names of Barkha Dutt and Vir Singhvi included in their news). Twitter and Face Book are buzzing. I also checked some online Hindi news papers. They apparently haven't yet picked this story. What about other regional papers? If the internet warriors keep blazing hopefully some more mainstream media and regional newspapers (who are not directly involved) will be forced to pick up this story.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 20 Nov 2010 15:43

The Andhra Pickle:

****
M.K. Venu: You saw Rohini’s story. It has come today.

Niira Radia: No, I haven’t seen it. I’m going to see it now. I finished at 1.30 in the night.

MK: But it’s all tucked away. You’re also keeping Manoj Modi’s timings. 2 o’ clock!

NR: It’s tucked away, is it?

MK: Yeah, but in ET you can’t miss it. It is the inside page but it’s the top half, the lead story of the page.

NR: You know this one, Ganapathy has been chasing me but I don’t want to give it to him. I have a letter from the Andhra chief minister.

MK: Hmm.

NR: I don’t want to give it to him, I am scared to give it and find the story killed. What do you think I should do? He has given a scathing attack. He has written to the PM.

MK: The Andhra CM. Two years ago, he used to sing Anil Ambani’s tune. It is a very strong letter, yaar.

NR: Kya karoon yaar. I don’t want it tucked away.

MK: Objective advice. Isko aise akhbar ko do jo isko lead flyer carry kare. Isko CNBC ko do. Then these people will be adequately provoked. If CNBC carries it as a lead 10 times a day, then everyone will start running helter skelter. If I was the editor, Rohini’s story was a clean Page 1, top half, like a lead story. Do you think a letter to the MD is possible? Broadly saying that we congratulate the launch of ET Now and then you can raise this issue that there is this raging controversy that is of national interest and we hope you can take which is, you know, which is in keeping with what Y.S.R. Reddy has written. Aisa karke you should lagao one.

NR: How is Prabhakar Sinha in Times?

MK: My information is that he and his brother Arun Kumar are retainers on the other side. About Arun Kumar, I am quite sure. He and Sandeep Bamzai used to be so openly partisan. I met Shekhar Bhatia at dinner, he used to be executive editor then, he told Sandeep Bamzai ki kam se kam ek hafta to chhod do. At least three to six months, you don’t plug him. This is what Shekhar Bhatia told him publicly.

NR: Yes, I don’t blame him. I met Sukumar and Sanjoy Narayan.

MK: That Sanjoy Narayan has an old friendship with that Tony (Jesudasan), na? They have some great common interests.

Full Monty: The Power Tapes

***

PRINT Share COMMENTS

Also In This Story

radia tapes
All Lines Are Busy
There was not one pie Niira Radia didn’t have her hand in nor any area—media, corporate or government—she didn’t have a contact in

radia tapes
‘I Know Who Planted In Congress That Azhagiri Knows No English’
A. Raja, Former telecom minister

radia tapes
‘How Do I Make Dad Understand? He Doesn’t Understand...’
Kanimozhi, Rajya Sabha MP

radia tapes
‘I Am Surprised Raja After All You Did For Him Is Playing This Game’
Ratan Tata, Chairman, Tata Sons

radia tapes
‘What Do You Want Me To Tell Them (The Congress)? Tell Me. I’ll talk To Them.’
Barkha Dutt, Group editor, English news, NDTV

radia tapes
Who Do You Want Congress To Talk To? Karunanidhi? I’ll Speak To Ahmed Patel.’
Vir Sanghvi, HT advisory editorial director

radia tapes
‘So, How Did You Find Sunil (Mittal)? What Did You Think Of Him?’
Tarun Das, Former CII honcho

‘Mukesh Said, Haan Yaar, Ranjan, Congress To Ab Apni Dukaan Hai’
Ranjan Bhattacharya, Former PM Atal Behari Vajpayee’s foster son-in-law

the PM
The Truth Conditions
Manmohan Singh’s time, strangely, has seen more scams than any of his predecessors. What price the ‘Mr Clean’ image?
Saba Naqvi

the PM
There Was A Swan, It Had A Tale
Media grandstanding aside, it was the Pioneer that broke open the 2G scam
Debarshi Dasgupta

cag report
Those Missing Zeroes
What punishment awaits the guilty? And can the loss be recouped?
Arindam Mukherjee

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People: Niira Radia|M.K. Venu
Section: National|Business
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Daily Mail
Order by Oldest Latest Liked Disliked HAVE YOUR SAY

Nov 20, 2010 05:04 AM
2 Is it too late to clean up in India. What I see is a complete corruption of moral values at all levels. Apathy of people is astounding. I never ordinary people take to street to do even a token demonstation. The opposition does it but only to capture power and do exactly the same things as this.

This rises the question were Indians always like this and is that the reason we easily became slaves? Are all the greatness only in epics and stories?

Anu
SFO, United States
Like (1) | Dislike (0) | Report Abuse | Permalink
Nov 20, 2010 03:21 AM
1 So, the cat is finally out of bag. But the real tragedy is that very few people in the country believe it would lead to even an attempt to cleanse the system. If the indications so far are anything to go by, the Congress-led government appears determined to do everything possible to prevent a full disclosure of what went on behind the scenes. And if everything does ultimately come out in the open, brazen it out just as it had done in the Bofors case.

sandeep sahu
bhubaneswar, India
Like (0) | Dislike (0) | Report Abuse | Permalink

Nov 20, 2010 03:21 AM
1 So, the cat is finally out of bag. But the real tragedy is that very few people in the country believe it would lead to even an attempt to cleanse the system. If the indications so far are anything to go by, the Congress-led government appears determined to do everything possible to prevent a full disclosure of what went on behind the scenes. And if everything does ultimately come out in the open, brazen it out just as it had done in the Bofors case.

sandeep sahu
bhubaneswar, India
LIKE (0) | DISLIKE (0) | REPORT ABUSE | PERMALINK
Nov 20, 2010 05:04 AM
2 Is it too late to clean up in India. What I see is a complete corruption of moral values at all levels. Apathy of people is astounding. I never ordinary people take to street to do even a token demonstation. The opposition does it but only to capture power and do exactly the same things as this.

This rises the question were Indians always like this and is that the reason we easily became slaves? Are all the greatness only in epics and stories?

Anu
SFO, United States
Nov 20, 2010 05:04 AM Is it too late to clean up in India. What I see is a complete corruption of moral values at all levels. Apathy of people is astounding. I never ordinary people take to street to do even a token demonstation. The opposition does it but only to capture power and do exactly the same things as this.

This rises the question were Indians always like this and is that the reason we easily became slaves? Are all the greatness only in epics and stories?

Anu
SFO, United States

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 20 Nov 2010 16:30

SSridhar wrote:
This woman is way too powerful and connected, including CPI-M leaders ! Not much will happen to her. How did she manage to develop such contacts ?

Apparently, Radia tried to launch an airline, surely it must be benami.

MagicAir cruises back into turbulent skies
TNN, Jul 21, 2005,

NEW DELHI: Nira Radia-promoted budget airline MagicAir seems to be heading back into turbulent skies with the department of economic affairs (DEA) seeking to refer its application for a flight permit to the Union Cabinet. The bone of contention: Radia's British citizenship and PIO (person of Indian origin) status.

Read more: MagicAir cruises back into turbulent skies - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... z15otefBku

Another report on the same: http://www.dancewithshadows.com/busines ... rlines.asp

Her Wikipedia page was edited, here is the information posted on it before the edit:

Link

Why Raja remains important:

http://indiasreport.com/magazine/data/r ... important/

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Nov 2010 18:54

KLNMurthy wrote:
Muppalla wrote:hmm I missed all the fun on BR being bizy this whole week.

...
...
However, extremely longtime back Daily Pioneer (the dirty hindutva supporting news paper run on shoe string budgets ) ran a story as early as 2006 about Raja. There was no action and he became minister again in UPA-2.

...
...
The tapes of Rada-the lobbyist and Raja hitting the journalists in Chennnai airport are all shown on HT TV about six months back too. Then also there was no discussion in public life.

When corruption should be discussed or make it a big isssue and when it should not be an issue is orchestrated in a planned way. As I said earlier, this time too the tapes came first from Outlook magazine. Anything coming form Outlook or The Week will have FULL approval from Gandhi family. That is the drift.
It is a big deal because:

Hearing vague talk that such things happen is very different from actual concrete directly verifiable evidence of corruption in the form of everyday normal sounding conversations between people is very powerful. Before listening to some of the tapes tonight I had some hope that maybe the story was exaggerated. B. Raman was saying the same thing on his blog, the transcripts were inaccurate and interpolated where the tape was not clear etc. It is a very human thing to want to believe in some corner of the mind that such casual disregard of ethics is not the norm, but the truth cannot be evaded when the evidence is so stark.

I only listened to a few segments. From what I listened to, I think B. Raman is absolutely wrong on this one. Barkha Dutt is so obviously a fixer, she has no business calling herself a reporter. Vir Singhvi has a very slight shred of plausible deniability--he discusses what sort of slant he would put on his article / interview, but he could claim he was just encouraging Radia to talk.

It is interesting that Sonia Gandhi goes public blaming Indian people as a whole for becoming corrupt and greedy, when it is the ruling coterie and their journalistic sidekicks that are the culprits. The real question is, with such stark evidence, what is the Indian public going to do about it all? The rulers and journos seem to be betting on a big fat nothing.

I guess you did not undestand my point. It has become a big deal only after the GOI released the tapes thru its one of the pets Outlook magazine. What I am trying to tell is Pioneer published evidence (not just story) during 2006 and HT aka India Today aka AajTak plays portions of tapes that has conversations between Rada and Raja and also some telecom officials during late 2009 and early 2010. When HT journos asked Mr.Raja about the tapes, he punched on the face of the HT journo in Chennai airport. This was also in way back.

From that perspective, these tapes are no big deal.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Nov 2010 19:10

Pratyush wrote:So how to make the Gandhis irrelevant in politics. That is the question that ought to be discussed. Leting them fade into obscurity is the best solution for the nation.

The question is more relevant in the JLN thread {ducks for cover}