Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Thank you shivji
I hope you excluded the armed forces otherwise JEM Saar will come back at you with a.303 rifle
I hope you excluded the armed forces otherwise JEM Saar will come back at you with a.303 rifle
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Usually when corruption is confined to at the high end then it provides a semblance of stability for the masses. The corruption in India is ubiquitous. It is an equal opportunity trait, that pervades at high, medium and low end. So, the masses get shafted at every step of the process. Indians actually end up paying not just double taxation but multiple taxation (ok. more like multiple hafta). It is amazing endurance, the people have learnt to put up with this. The system has been set in motion such that it spawns more avenues for corruption.
Well, unfortunately when society believes in generously shafting others, all the time wondering how come one is getting shafted when they try to obtain services from others. RTO gets shafted at educational office, and educational officer gets shafted at RTO.
This is direct fall out of license quota permit raj. The system is set up for failure.
The situation gets even more complex when the rural folks try dealing with sarkari naukars. All kinds of intimidating forms, procedures, rank etc are pulled. Have seen many a times some of my relatives with rural background actually believe that actual process to get stuff done is by corruption, while not recognizing that as corruption. While most city denizens, use corruption to fast track(or bring it onto normal speed) the process.
One way to reduce unfortunately is to reduce manual intervention in many processes. If money can be spent to automate UID scheme, surely there are many places that can be automated, where the actual meeting of people at government offices are reduced.
The non-civilized way to deal with corruption will be to allow Rahul Mehta's Right to carry guns. When death lurks for everyone be it a bank naukar or a sarkari naukar, because some yahoo might actually go postal to correct the wrongs. with everyone having the potential to become a yahoo, then the corruption at the low level will disappear due to intimidation. Every one will be forced to greet everyone with "how you doing today',"top of the morning to you" facade. Enforced discipline. Actually some friends from Bihar used to narrate how the sarkari naukars in electricity board, water supply board used to get to office with armed protection, after a power failure or water supply failure. Because, yahoos would blow up the office itself. Another sure way to end corruption, but also a sure way towards pakistaniyat.
But as a society Indians have so far have chosen to accept corruption as a price to pay instead of living on the edge. But will we be wiser to put in systems that actually deals with increasing trust in the society?
Well, unfortunately when society believes in generously shafting others, all the time wondering how come one is getting shafted when they try to obtain services from others. RTO gets shafted at educational office, and educational officer gets shafted at RTO.
This is direct fall out of license quota permit raj. The system is set up for failure.
The situation gets even more complex when the rural folks try dealing with sarkari naukars. All kinds of intimidating forms, procedures, rank etc are pulled. Have seen many a times some of my relatives with rural background actually believe that actual process to get stuff done is by corruption, while not recognizing that as corruption. While most city denizens, use corruption to fast track(or bring it onto normal speed) the process.
One way to reduce unfortunately is to reduce manual intervention in many processes. If money can be spent to automate UID scheme, surely there are many places that can be automated, where the actual meeting of people at government offices are reduced.
The non-civilized way to deal with corruption will be to allow Rahul Mehta's Right to carry guns. When death lurks for everyone be it a bank naukar or a sarkari naukar, because some yahoo might actually go postal to correct the wrongs. with everyone having the potential to become a yahoo, then the corruption at the low level will disappear due to intimidation. Every one will be forced to greet everyone with "how you doing today',"top of the morning to you" facade. Enforced discipline. Actually some friends from Bihar used to narrate how the sarkari naukars in electricity board, water supply board used to get to office with armed protection, after a power failure or water supply failure. Because, yahoos would blow up the office itself. Another sure way to end corruption, but also a sure way towards pakistaniyat.
But as a society Indians have so far have chosen to accept corruption as a price to pay instead of living on the edge. But will we be wiser to put in systems that actually deals with increasing trust in the society?
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
People who interact with the govt machinery on a daily basis know the pervasive nature of corruption at all levels. Couple of years back I had to renew passport. I also had a change of address so I needed to change my license, ration card, bank address and finally apply to the passport office. Even with all the influence I had (knew a minister, DSP, magistrate etc in the contacts of extended family) I had to bribe at every level. It was either that or spend more time and energy. I had the latter but not the former. Some of the top people were indeed honest and they did not take a cut. But there is only so much they could do and still carry out regular duties smoothly.
The only fix is to design processes that involves as little govt folks personally as possible.
The only fix is to design processes that involves as little govt folks personally as possible.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
One fix would be to demonstrate that corrupt people in high places like Raja and Kalmadi are punished. If those guys can be punished it puts the fear of god in many smaller poeple's hearts. What will actually happen is that those top guys will all get away - sending the signal that corruption is fine, and people will protest and not vote for the neta if they are forced to be uncorrupt.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
We are not a corrupt nation from bottom to top. In fact, we are a corrupt nation from top to bottom. Big difference. Actually, from top to those elements of the bottom that are above level zero of the food chain. The bribe you pay to the clerk goes all the way to the high command via auctioning of posts.shiv wrote: Smart Sanskrit cliches from ancient days is the nonsense we like to hide behind as we want to deny that we are a corrupt nation from bottom to top. Netas deny that they are corrupt of course. You are welcome to think what you like. If you live in India an that is what you see you are blessed. My life is not as blessed as yours.
Last edited by Pranav on 21 Nov 2010 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
/rantPranav wrote:It is unlikely that an honest cabinet could not run a clean administration if it wanted to. On the other hand, the commoners can scarcely be blamed for coughing up to extortionist administrators. Which is why it is Yatha Raja Tatha Praja, and not vice versa.shiv wrote: Could be. In this case BJP.
Pranav-ji,
How dare you argue with the doctored opinion, once the blame is put on communal-BJP, hain-ji? That said officer joined his duties only AFTER bjp govt took office.
On top of it, you bring an Indic-adage to support your claim, you kufr???
The top is some times corruption free, the higher you go the more times it gets. Since there is one and only royal family, they are never corrupt. At the same time the bottom layer is completely corrupt, because our doctor says so!
You must not argue in such issues, if you are an NRI. Only the people who live in India and face these situation on a daily basis (they go to DMVs on a daily basis) have the knowledge/authority to make such claims. If still in doubt, visit TSP-dagha. Pakis say the same thing "only pakistanis understand how much Pakistan is suffering from terrorism. Others cannot judge our actions sitting outside".
/rant-off
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
My conspiracy theory (or fond hope) is that Dawood is a Raw agent.ShivaS wrote: What should Dawood Bhai be saying any guess?
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
This penchant to ONLY blame the politicians and babus is BIG cop out and one reason why we are progressing and reforming slowly.Pranav wrote:Which is why it is Yatha Raja Tatha Praja, and not vice versa.
Some of the pro-BJP BRFites (I am one), ought to be man enough, at least on BRF, to accept the possibility that BJP will/can/might have corrupt people in its ranks too. The trend in BRF is to reject any notion that BJP can be even slightly corrupt and that Indians are goody-goody people and only the leaders are corrupt. Why can't we admit that the system in the last several hundred years has broken the will, motivation and hope of common people, huh? When one loses hope and opportunities are removed then humans will resort to means to survive. Dharma be damned.
Last edited by SwamyG on 21 Nov 2010 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Gus-ji,Gus wrote:People who interact with the govt machinery on a daily basis know the pervasive nature of corruption at all levels. Couple of years back I had to renew passport. I also had a change of address so I needed to change my license, ration card, bank address and finally apply to the passport office. Even with all the influence I had (knew a minister, DSP, magistrate etc in the contacts of extended family) I had to bribe at every level. It was either that or spend more time and energy. I had the latter but not the former. Some of the top people were indeed honest and they did not take a cut. But there is only so much they could do and still carry out regular duties smoothly.
The only fix is to design processes that involves as little govt folks personally as possible.
You provided the answer too. When we change our address, it is our 'duty' to change all the items you mentioned above. Since we do not have "time" (Yes, we do not have a central place to make such changes), we take help of "agents", who does that for us. It is only fair to "pay" the consulting fees for the "agent".
In a ideal scenario, one needs to give a "GPA" to the agent to represent us for such changes, and that itself takes "time".
That is how the corruption at lowerlevel happens. The is nothing but the greese in the system. Whoever blames the bottom level of corruption for Indian problems is not only is ignorant, but a moorkha (like sri Subrahmanyam Swami said). These people can be overwritten, if you follow the process to the t, or have an honest officer.
The lower level corruption will not help one to change the ownership of a land, granting an industrial license or such large items. That corruption is done at higher levels. The higher the favor, the higher the level you need to reach.
***
My personal example:
Recently I sold a piece of land in Hyderabad. We got all the paperwork prepared afront. I noticed a typo in my name in my land deed and corrected in the new deed so it reflects my passport, and other verification documents and we went to sub-registrar. The registrar caught it in the first 10seconds and asked us to change the deed (luckily he did not ask me to correct the name/address documents such as Passport). Since the buyer did not have "time" (15 mins to change it and reprint it), he wanted to push for registration. The subregistrar asked Rs 50,000 bribe for one letter correction.
The buyer have one of his relative (DCPolice) call subregistrar for a favor and the process was complete in 10 mins.
In the entire process, we offered hardly Rs2000-3000 to all clerical staff as a "tip". They didn't ask any bribe.
***
The lower level corruption can be changed by bringing process changes. Such as having a Aathar ID and allowing people to change thier change of addresses (or such issues) thru e-seva centers over Internet. Govt AP achieved lot of success in that area.
But the higher-level corruption cannot be addressed like that, because these people have information advantage. Look at 2G example. The minister wanted to grant 2G spectrum on first come first serve basis. Who will know the information first? Who will get the project details first? this information influences who comes first and who gets served first. For example, even if someone knows the details and submits the application first, they can be delayed by asking for additional information.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Yes he is as was declared by spinster in circa ....
Seriously the laddu scam arjitha seva kalyanam seba tickets of TTD need to be probed
all kinds of saturated fat is being used in prasadam and sadam
this is of national importance than catching the waves (thrieves)
Seriously the laddu scam arjitha seva kalyanam seba tickets of TTD need to be probed
all kinds of saturated fat is being used in prasadam and sadam
this is of national importance than catching the waves (thrieves)
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Perfect. The prosecution should be done in open court. Not only will people who are directly being prosecuted, but also they will expose the network. They will be forced to name names and in bargain for clemency, muted sentence, all the kings men will become bare naked. The top honchos will not be prosecuted, because they will sing and it will be very damaging. The information Raja and Kalmadi hold will alone serve as golden parchutes for them, because they will be paid to keep their silence. Hence no honest prosecution.shiv wrote:One fix would be to demonstrate that corrupt people in high places like Raja and Kalmadi are punished. If those guys can be punished it puts the fear of god in many smaller poeple's hearts. What will actually happen is that those top guys will all get away - sending the signal that corruption is fine, and people will protest and not vote for the neta if they are forced to be uncorrupt.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
The higher the rank, the graver the crime. You can't judge a peon by the same yardstick that you use for Sonia Gandhi.SwamyG wrote: This penchant to ONLY blame the politicians and babus is BIG cop out and one reason why we are progressing and reforming slowly.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
This is the best it can be put. "National Plunder". Modern day Ghori's,Thuglaks , Ghaznis etc...
@Chellaney
Brahma Chellaney
India is witnessing not mere corruption but national plunder. India tops the list of stolen national wealth stashed in Swiss bank accounts.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Top people have more responsibilities and must be punished harder.Pranav wrote:
"SwamyG"
This penchant to ONLY blame the politicians and babus is BIG cop out and one reason why we are progressing and reforming slowly.
The higher the rank, the graver the crime. You can't judge a peon by the same yardstick that you use for Sonia Gandhi.
If political parties dont have a vision and a social plan but only do social engineering then it becomes politics without principles. This kind of institutional sick ness comes over several decades - 30-40 years
http://www.mkgandhi.org/mgmnt.htm#politics
Politics Without Principle
If there is no principle, there is no true north, nothing you can depend upon. The focus on the personality ethic is the instant creation of an image that sells well in the social and economic marketplace.
You see politicians spending millions of dollars to create an image, even though it's superficial, lacking substance, in order to get votes and gain office. And when it works, it leads to a political system operating independently of the natural laws that should govern - - that are built into the Declaration of Independence : "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness . . . . "
In other words, they are describing self-evident, external, observable, natural, unarguable, self-evident laws: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident." The key to a healthy society is to get the social will, the value system, aligned with correct principles. You then have the compass needle pointing to true north - true north representing the external or the natural law - and the indicator says that is what we are building our value system on : they are aligned.
But if you get a sick social will behind the political will that is independent of principle, you could have a very sick organization or society with distorted values. For instance, the professed mission and shared values of criminals who rape, rob and plunder might sound very much like many corporate mission statements, using such words as "teamwork," "cooperation," "loyalty," "profitability," "innovation," and "creativity." The problem is that their value system is not based on a natural law.
Figuratively, inside many corporations with lofty mission statements, many people are being mugged in broad daylight in front of witnesses. Or they are being robbed of self-esteem, money, or position without due process. And if there is no social will behind the principles of due process, and if you can't get due process, you have to go to the jury of your peers and engage in counterculture sabotage.
In the best societies and organizations, natural laws and principles govern - that's the Constitution - and even the top people must bow to the principle. No one is above it.
Commerce (Business) Without Morality (Ethics)
In his book Moral Sentiment, which preceded Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith explained how foundational to the success of our systems is the moral foundation : how we treat each other, the spirit of benevolence, of service, of contribution. If we ignore the moral foundation and allow economic systems to operate without moral foundation and without continued education, we will soon create an amoral, if not immoral, society and business. Economic and political systems are ultimately based on a moral foundation.
To Adam Smith, every business transaction is a moral challenge to see that both parties come out fairly. Fairness and benevolence in business are the underpinnings of the free enterprise system called capitalism. Our economic system comes out of a constitutional democracy where minority rights are to be attended to as well. The spirit of the Golden Rule or of win-win is a spirit of morality, of mutual benefit, of fairness for all concerned. Paraphrasing one of the mottos of the Rotary Club, "Is it fair and does it serve the interests of all the stakeholders?" That's just a moral sense of stewardship toward all of the stakeholders.
I like that Smith says every economic transaction. People get in trouble when they say that most of their economic transactions are moral. That means there is something going on that is covert, hidden, secret. People keep a hidden agenda, a secret life, and they justify and rationalize their activities. They tell themselves rational lies so they don't have to adhere to natural laws. If you can get enough rationalization in a society, you can have social mores or political wills that are totally divorced from natural laws and principles.
I once met a man who for five years served as the "ethics director" for a major aerospace company. He finally resigned the post in protest and considered leaving the company, even though he would lose a big salary and benefit package. He said that the executive team had their own separate set of business ethics and that they were deep into rationalization and justification. Wealth and power were big on their agendas, and they made no excuse for it anymore. They were divorced from reality even inside their own organization. They talked about serving the customer while absolutely mugging their own employees.
Last edited by svinayak on 21 Nov 2010 22:20, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
One thing that strikes is is something that was suggested by someone on here . That is to institutionalize corruption and unfair advantages. The difficulty is in making the system fair to all. Discard that. Part of the reason why we lament corruption is that we are told that the country suffers. Country is an inanimate concept. How can it suffer? Better that country suffers than you suffer.
Some things can be solved straight away by this attitude. For example all this "poverty", "debts", maldistribution, malnutrition etc can be ignored. That is "country's problem". Country has to look after itself. You should look after yourself and country will look after itself. People getting water, toilets, food etc should not worry you. Are you doing OK? If you are balls to other things.
One thing that worries people is "land". Is your land safe? If it is we should not worry about other people's land. The only problem here is that near the country's borders the land grabbing is done more by foreigners rather than by Indians. But if we worry about that then we have to worry about maintaining armed forces. But those armed forces have weapons so they must be loyal and honest. These are all problems. When the whole country is corrupt - the armed forces guy is seeing the corruption everywhere. You cannot be more strict with him than others. Let him also have some corruption.
If you go sufficiently far down this path you find that "country" is unnecessary. The larger the unit of land, the more powerful the leaders are. If you divide up the land you get smaller leaders. At some level of division you too can rule over some people and some land. You have your bunch of goons, your peronal police force and you control some land.
In fact this is Indian history to a T. It is only the formation of the Indian nation state that is a problem. Pakistanis have figured out all the problems in a nation state and are fixing it. Indians are a little behind Pakistan. Not having a country that works is not really a problem. You can have lots of happy and wealthy people. Again Pakistan is a good example. We may need to get rid of artificial concepts like "borders of India". That should not be difficult. Only one or two generations ago, my own ancestors were loyal to Mysore state - not to India. Why not? Split the country into small interest groups. If you want to get really wealthy you cannot loot from all of India. You have to fight a war and defeat your neighbor and then his neighbor and all. Building a huge state is not easy because the country can be divided into multiple small and easily dominated (or governed) states. No Sonia, Yuvraj or Raja can sit in Delhi and make money out of the whole. No need for South Indian Unnikrishnan to go and die to save the ass of Bal/Uddhav Thakre's land. Every man for himself. What a man gets is only what he can capture and hold. If you are small fry - you will rule over small people. If you are big shot - you get bigger kingdom. This is brought out in the statement of truth
If you are bigger and lead more goondas or have more wealth to hire goons, you can grab more. It really is every man for himself in india. National unity in terms of national purpose to keep the country free, united and strong is present only in patches. There are too many people with local interests and self interest. United India is like equator. Virtual reality. It can be made into reality by romantic people but they have to be realistic and not in denial - imagining that a little cleaning at the top level will make India into Ram Rajya. There are 100 milllion Rajas ruling 100 million little kingdoms in India. Central government is a coalition of those rajas. If you bring down the rajas they will bring down the centre because they do not want to lose their kingdom. If you want "clean up india" and make it united you need to clean up the majority of those 100 million rajas who rule India ranging from one village or one city slum to a whole state.
Some things can be solved straight away by this attitude. For example all this "poverty", "debts", maldistribution, malnutrition etc can be ignored. That is "country's problem". Country has to look after itself. You should look after yourself and country will look after itself. People getting water, toilets, food etc should not worry you. Are you doing OK? If you are balls to other things.
One thing that worries people is "land". Is your land safe? If it is we should not worry about other people's land. The only problem here is that near the country's borders the land grabbing is done more by foreigners rather than by Indians. But if we worry about that then we have to worry about maintaining armed forces. But those armed forces have weapons so they must be loyal and honest. These are all problems. When the whole country is corrupt - the armed forces guy is seeing the corruption everywhere. You cannot be more strict with him than others. Let him also have some corruption.
If you go sufficiently far down this path you find that "country" is unnecessary. The larger the unit of land, the more powerful the leaders are. If you divide up the land you get smaller leaders. At some level of division you too can rule over some people and some land. You have your bunch of goons, your peronal police force and you control some land.
In fact this is Indian history to a T. It is only the formation of the Indian nation state that is a problem. Pakistanis have figured out all the problems in a nation state and are fixing it. Indians are a little behind Pakistan. Not having a country that works is not really a problem. You can have lots of happy and wealthy people. Again Pakistan is a good example. We may need to get rid of artificial concepts like "borders of India". That should not be difficult. Only one or two generations ago, my own ancestors were loyal to Mysore state - not to India. Why not? Split the country into small interest groups. If you want to get really wealthy you cannot loot from all of India. You have to fight a war and defeat your neighbor and then his neighbor and all. Building a huge state is not easy because the country can be divided into multiple small and easily dominated (or governed) states. No Sonia, Yuvraj or Raja can sit in Delhi and make money out of the whole. No need for South Indian Unnikrishnan to go and die to save the ass of Bal/Uddhav Thakre's land. Every man for himself. What a man gets is only what he can capture and hold. If you are small fry - you will rule over small people. If you are big shot - you get bigger kingdom. This is brought out in the statement of truth
The lower level corruption will not help one to change the ownership of a land, granting an industrial license or such large items. That corruption is done at higher levels. The higher the favor, the higher the level you need to reach.
If you are bigger and lead more goondas or have more wealth to hire goons, you can grab more. It really is every man for himself in india. National unity in terms of national purpose to keep the country free, united and strong is present only in patches. There are too many people with local interests and self interest. United India is like equator. Virtual reality. It can be made into reality by romantic people but they have to be realistic and not in denial - imagining that a little cleaning at the top level will make India into Ram Rajya. There are 100 milllion Rajas ruling 100 million little kingdoms in India. Central government is a coalition of those rajas. If you bring down the rajas they will bring down the centre because they do not want to lose their kingdom. If you want "clean up india" and make it united you need to clean up the majority of those 100 million rajas who rule India ranging from one village or one city slum to a whole state.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
What does Brahm Chellaney know? Just clean up a few people at the top - Sonia, Yuvraj, MMS etc and India will be squeaky clean because the people are all so honest.praksam wrote:This is the best it can be put. "National Plunder". Modern day Ghori's,Thuglaks , Ghaznis etc...
@Chellaney
Brahma Chellaney
India is witnessing not mere corruption but national plunder. India tops the list of stolen national wealth stashed in Swiss bank accounts.

Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Yes what does Brahma know? He is but a fizzle!
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
ShivaS wrote:Yes what does Brahma know? He is but a fizzle!

In fact I think the country needs some threat to break it apart. Holding it together means putting up with people who steal from Delhi. I have some control over who can steal for me in Karnataka but my money disappearing from Delhi to Switzerland a problem. Let UPwallahs deal with Rajmata and Yuvraj. They hold no charm in Karnataka anyway. I think we can do well with some locals over whom I can have some influence. After all we have our own scamsters. I don't need1 Lakh crore. 100 crores will be enough.
Center has control over armed forces and that is a threat to me. Undermine the armed forces and the peripheries get more freedom.
If you can't fix it, bringing it down is a good philosophy. Even my own CM Yediyurappa has said he will bring the govt down if he is removed for a scam that is 100 times smaller than 2 -G scam
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
I came across some introductory material on organizational culture, in particular the section on Organizational Culture and Change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_culture
The consensus view stated is that cultural change must start at the highest level in the organization. Ideally in a democratic system, this means that a change in government is sufficient for such a change. But this has a flaw in that big change in a democratic fashion requires a 2/3rds majority, and incumbents can always bribe voters by doling out benefits in order to prevent people desiring change from getting such a majority. In turn, supposed change agents have to dole out bribes themselves because they have to live with the existing organization as the 2/3rd requirement prevents them from having the power to change.
I think nothing short of changes to democratic procedures (direct elections to certain government posts, right to recall, referendums, right to bear arms) can help given this constraint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_culture
The consensus view stated is that cultural change must start at the highest level in the organization. Ideally in a democratic system, this means that a change in government is sufficient for such a change. But this has a flaw in that big change in a democratic fashion requires a 2/3rds majority, and incumbents can always bribe voters by doling out benefits in order to prevent people desiring change from getting such a majority. In turn, supposed change agents have to dole out bribes themselves because they have to live with the existing organization as the 2/3rd requirement prevents them from having the power to change.
I think nothing short of changes to democratic procedures (direct elections to certain government posts, right to recall, referendums, right to bear arms) can help given this constraint.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Just few days ago someone posted in states-discussion thread how CMs of few states are changing the economic, social, and political scene with the same administrative, policy, and civic structures.
If Gandhi got us Independence, Nehru the 5-yr plans
, IG emergency, RG tamizh-terrorism, VP Singh Caste-reservations, PVNR HM and Bribary scandals, Vajpayee yindoo-terrorism, MMS incredible-india and so on, is it wrong to hope next ahmedi to bring corruptio-free governance?
I am getting corrupted, mentally

If Gandhi got us Independence, Nehru the 5-yr plans

I am getting corrupted, mentally



Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
One can personally not take money. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to be in politics and government machinery and clean things up as things are. 'Open courts' etc won't work at lower levels....what we are looking at is a small changes over long term that improves things gradually.
Living in western country, it is easy to say "it is your duty to change address when you change your address". When you go to the RTO office to change address, he asks for a "no objection" certificate from the previous RTO office for changing the address. You spend a day to travel to the old place to get that and that officer says come back tomorrow. Now, is it possible for me to come back tomorrow? yes. But I would rather throw 200 rs at that person than spend another day and another 200 for expenses.
All these processes should be reviewed and redesigned with the end user in mind. That will lessen the need for greasing. This is one type of corruption. The other one where policy makers accept bribes to benefit the briber - that is something that can be discouraged by jailing them.
Living in western country, it is easy to say "it is your duty to change address when you change your address". When you go to the RTO office to change address, he asks for a "no objection" certificate from the previous RTO office for changing the address. You spend a day to travel to the old place to get that and that officer says come back tomorrow. Now, is it possible for me to come back tomorrow? yes. But I would rather throw 200 rs at that person than spend another day and another 200 for expenses.
All these processes should be reviewed and redesigned with the end user in mind. That will lessen the need for greasing. This is one type of corruption. The other one where policy makers accept bribes to benefit the briber - that is something that can be discouraged by jailing them.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
No Gus-saar! I wasn't saying that you were wrong. I was just presenting the possible (I do not exact) process and the issues involved in it. If I take an attorney's help I pay consulting fees in USA. If I take an agent's help in India I am paying "commission/corruption", while the end objective is the same.
My main point of that post was that, the low level corruption is mainly caused by aam-admi like us who do not "know" the process or do not have time. And it can be changed using simplified process, single-window e-seva type service centers, and technology. But the high-leve corruption has to be handled by punishing people.
What irks me mainly, is the fact that people bring unrelated aspects in to every issue making it an unsolvable, unending discussion. For example, we are discussing 2-G spectrum issue and people want to include entire corruption (including psychological and spritual corruption) in to this issue.
Proof - congress attempting to link Yadyurappa corrpution scandal into 2-G spectrum corruption JPC.
My main point of that post was that, the low level corruption is mainly caused by aam-admi like us who do not "know" the process or do not have time. And it can be changed using simplified process, single-window e-seva type service centers, and technology. But the high-leve corruption has to be handled by punishing people.
What irks me mainly, is the fact that people bring unrelated aspects in to every issue making it an unsolvable, unending discussion. For example, we are discussing 2-G spectrum issue and people want to include entire corruption (including psychological and spritual corruption) in to this issue.
Proof - congress attempting to link Yadyurappa corrpution scandal into 2-G spectrum corruption JPC.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.RamaY wrote: What irks me mainly, is the fact that people bring unrelated aspects in to every issue making it an unsolvable, unending discussion. For example, we are discussing 2-G spectrum issue and people want to include entire corruption (including psychological and spritual corruption) in to this issue.
Proof - congress attempting to link Yadyurappa corrpution scandal into 2-G spectrum corruption JPC.
INC linking it to Ktaka is a cheap one since when is Ktaka a total representative of all BJP party and that also a national one. If they had gone after Modi it would have been worth it. But this is a weak response.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Ha we haven't even brought the word
ELITE
ELITE
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Absurdities like PIO and OCI schemes are enabling this now. Probably NDA government did not think how these facilities would boomerang.Acharya wrote:Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
^^ Were there no wheeler dealers prior to the introduction of OCI and PIO? OCI's are bound by Indian law too btw
Last edited by shyamd on 22 Nov 2010 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Yes, Congress in every forum and media that is there only handle of defining Corruption that is 1,760000000000 Cr Vs 20 crl...Acharya wrote:I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.RamaY wrote: What irks me mainly, is the fact that people bring unrelated aspects in to every issue making it an unsolvable, unending discussion. For example, we are discussing 2-G spectrum issue and people want to include entire corruption (including psychological and spritual corruption) in to this issue.
Proof - congress attempting to link Yadyurappa corrpution scandal into 2-G spectrum corruption JPC.
INC linking it to Ktaka is a cheap one since when is Ktaka a total representative of all BJP party and that also a national one. If they had gone after Modi it would have been worth it. But this is a weak response.

Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
There were people like Quattrochi, yes. But Indian citizens have to live under the threat of CBI and long jail term without trial. OCIs and PIOs do not because foreign governments will get involved, and they can always skip the country using foreign passport.shyamd wrote:^^ Were there no wheeler dealers prior to the introduction of OCI and PIO? OCI's are bound by Indian law too btw
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Shiv ji.After reading your posts I was reminded of a post that I made some months back on Future strategic scenario thread.At that moment I was actually unsure whether this would really play out.I am reposting it here.
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ic-tsunami
If we do not make substantial changes to our political and administrative setup soon(infact we have to completely revamp them) then we are going to end up like Pakistan within 2 decades.In my opinion the current form of Parliamentary democracy that we practice has run its course and is of extremely limited or no utility in future.The very foundation of a Nation State is justice and this parliamentary system has been totally ineffective in dispensing it.
As Rahul Mehta and Vera k earlier have said at this point of time we do need Direct elections for certain posts(PM,CM etc) akin to presidential semocracy,Right to recall and even Right to bear arms.
Those who are justifying corruption and want to legalise it might want to explain what happens when Armed Forces too become corrupt(relatively they are stll much cleaner).
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ic-tsunami
And while corruption is not explicitly mentioned in this article as a reason , the pillars which support our nation state are definitely getting eroded because of it and will definitely be one of the causes of the above scenario.Just to give you a context of the amount involved in the 2-g scam alone.170,000 crores.Means you could have actually made 170,000 families crorepati if direct payments were made to them which means about 1 million people would be covered.If Rs 5 million per paid instead then 2 million people would have been covered(I am not justifying this technique but just giving you a context of how much money was involved).And here we are not even giving the tribals adequate compensation whose lands are being taken for mining and other uses .The Kesroli Group is a modest-sized, close-knit think tank of top professionals from the world of business, finance, policy, public affairs, media and non-government organisations, comprising Indian citizens and those of Indian origin under the age of 50. In late 2009, key members initiated discussions on ongoing and impending situations with a view to generating awareness and solution-oriented discussion with what one member with extensive consulting experience termed “thought triggers”. The idea was that eventually these would contribute to policy and implementation that seek to make India a better place.
India’s Demographic Tsunami derives from that exercise. This section, titled ‘A Modified Internal Geography’, assumes all the ‘upside’ stories about India, from the growth of the economy and purchasing power to greater relevance in the global arena; these have generally tended to fuel exuberance and dampen realism to the point of delusion.
And so, this paper also assumes the ‘downside’, bad news that continues to escalate with the good, and the continuation of endemic corruption and official callousness that haven’t yet been dented by the gradual spread of instruments such as the Right to Information Act; and increasing political maturity of the electorate. Polity, government, administration and, to an extent, business, will for the sake of palatable expediency continue to ignore no-brainer solutions that have repeatedly, for decades, been suggested by some of the best minds from India and overseas.
Several of India’s hard-won gains locally and globally appear to be threatened in the near and medium-term future. It is becoming increasingly clear that, unless addressed quickly and emphatically, India’s inherent national crisis will witness greater churn in the next 25 years. There is reason to be concerned that this churn could, quite easily, extend to the next 50.
This churn will mainly be on account of population pressure; mismatch of aspiration and reality; and roots of conflict such as caste-related and tribal alienation. In the foreseeable future, India will also continue to have to deal with several violent reactions and movements that, like the present cycle of Maoist rebellion, will be rooted in issues of right to livelihood; defence of property; delivery of law and order; and justice. India’s embedded corruption will continue to exacerbate these lamentable deficiencies.
In addition, there is a high possibility of continuing identity-related conflict, especially in northeastern India. Several of these issues are likely to be influenced by external factors, such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, and in the foreseeable future, Nepal and Myanmar.
While in several instances these could be state-mandated—such as Pakistan, China and Bangladesh’s on-again, off-again policies of destabilising various aspects of India—there is the equally high possibility of change and churn in neighbouring countries directly affecting the internal dynamics of contiguous areas in present-day India. For instance, a breakdown in Nepal’s political and social fabric will directly affect the bordering present-day Indian states of Uttarakhand, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal. Or, a huge displacement of population in Bangladesh on account of a rise of sea levels or population will directly impact the neighbouring present-day Indian states of West Bengal, Assam, Meghalaya, Tripura, and Mizoram.
In both cases, there will be an export of people, politics and religious beliefs into areas of India already stretched due to their own resource pressures and deep feelings of an imminent takeover by ‘outsiders’ glaringly evident in the present day.
Even a medium intensity progression along these lines is likely to lead to conditions of implosion of the Indian State—in form and substance—as we know it today. While this has obvious ramifications for the state of the nation and India’s internal security horizon, India’s ‘health’ will continue to affect the country’s external behaviour, from diplomatic efforts to security initiatives and responses.
Such a crisis-ridden state, as outlined above, could be significantly closer than might appear. Consider the challenges.
How Will We Feed So Many People?
In 2020, just over a decade from now, India’s urban population will have gone up from around 23 per cent of the total at present to 40 per cent. In absolute numbers, this would mean a shoot up from 285 million to 540 million—an immense challenge, even with a rapidly growing economy. Alongside, while the proportion of rural population would lessen, it would still be in the region of 820 million. The same area, 350 million more people, and around the same number of new jobs to be created. As for feeding them: foodgrain production would have to increase to 260 million tonnes a year, up from the present 190-200 million tonnes, using roughly the same amount of arable land.
This is mild compared to the scenario closer to 2050. India’s foodgrain requirement would then be an estimated 400 million tonnes a year for a population in excess of 1.5 billion. According to an estimate, the ‘replacement level’ (a couple replaced by two children) should ideally have been reached by 2000. This ‘stabilisation’ of population is unlikely to be reached till the close of this century.
At current levels of incapable irrigation, uneven agricultural productivity, and increased rates of rural displacement on account of direct human intervention (watershed and water-table loss, deforestation), this could prove impossible. There will be no recourse but to import vast quantities of food, but what of the effect of people ‘on the move’ with nowhere to go but crushed urban and semi-urban zones? Human displacement will be on a scale bigger than anything seen thus far in India.
India would need to provide productive opportunities for nearly 600 million people who are now aged 30 or less, in an environment of shrinking agricultural activity, massive leakage of development funds in rural, semi-urban and urban areas, and continual overburdening of urban spaces.
In this situation, India will be further hampered by the official and policymaking tendency to play percentages and not absolute numbers:
The Numbers Are Scary
One per cent in India equals more than 10 million people—and will soon equal 15 million.
An estimated 50 million live in urban slums. This number will dramatically increase, through the creation of new slums.
Estimates of those displaced by projects since India’s Independence average 50 million. Of these, a majority have been resettled, but not rehabilitated. Ongoing displacement will get more acute.
India’s landless rural peasantry is estimated in the range of 18-20 million. This will increase with further fracturing of landholding, and destitution on account of non-family issues (indebtedness; crop failure; non-remunerative pricing; cheaper imports; rising input costs on account of ‘terminator’ seeds and chemical fertilisers.)
A 10,000-strong armed Maoist cadre may appear minuscule when dealt within the blinding framework of percentages, but it is prudent to remember that it took 19 people and a relatively small logistics team to bring down the World Trade Centre towers, among other attacks, and trigger the nearly decade-long ‘Global War Against Terror’.
In ‘urban’ and ‘industrial’ spaces, India will need to absorb a vast, continually increasing workforce. The incidence of physical emigration for work or change of residence will dramatically lessen as traditional overseas ‘buyers’ of manpower look to replace such human resources with their own. Outsourcing or back-office employment is finite.
India’s growth of population and construct of education combine to ensure a disturbing spillover of the unemployed and the unemployable: a population that is increasingly vulnerable to radicalisation—from religious to the ideological.
Together, these problems represent vast pools of negative energy in the country, and there is little doubt that these problems are worsening.
India’s Map Will Change
By whatever name, manifestations of this negative energy, extreme left-wing movements or otherwise, will increase. Urban areas will see the emergence of livelihood-related violence that is currently being leveraged in several Indian cities around issues of ethnic identity and religion.
Several Northeastern states are in a condition of violent flux. The question of Jammu & Kashmir is, of course, a vastly disquieting matter (along with global, radical Islamism).
Current policy initiatives are worrying, as these are not oriented towards solutions, but towards the maintenance of conflict at ‘acceptable levels’ as deemed by the State. Insurgency scenarios and counter-insurgency capabilities take precedence over addressing issues of administration, skill sets and education (positive/negative job creation); food security; addressing the dispossessed (destitute, abandoned, resentful); and issues of urbanisation and migration. All this is bound to have deep political and geographic implications.
The map of India will surely change. More states and autonomous regions are likely—some estimates suggest close to 50 states from the present 28 in a matter of years. Telengana, Bundelkhand, Vidarbha, Marathwada, Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh, Uttar Kannada, Dakshin Kannada, ‘Gorkhaland’, ‘Bodoland’, separation of the present Khasi and Garo Hills—are all likely units.
However, there is a limit to how much the drawing of lines and setting up of separate administrations can address inherent ills, as India’s present rot in politics and governance and great public apathy helps to perpetuate so many problems.
In extreme situations brought on by a combination of both internal and external factors, the de facto external boundaries of India too could change, in a replay of ‘Pakistan Occupied Kashmir’ and Aksai Chin. In this context, Northeastern India is particularly vulnerable.
A Modified Internal Geography
Extreme left-wing movements will spiral beyond present-day comprehension and reach, driven by increasing urbanisation in spaces around present-day metropolitan areas; continual pressure on rural and forested areas to cede space to extractive and related business (such as mining); increasing political, financial and development (health care, sanitation, education, job creation) focus by central and state governments on urban spaces that will lead to greater resentment in, and alienation of, rural spaces/ populations. The momentum for accountability will—as now—increase in urban spaces and reduce in rural spaces. The Right to Information and similar devices are and will largely remain urban phenomena.
The fabric will stretch, and could finally tear. Large areas of India will be reshaped along fault lines of internal conflict. The Indian polity will be radically altered. Left-wing, tribal and caste militias will control central, east, south-central, and west-central India. Driven by a chain of militia ‘conglomerates’ that will recruit from local and/or ‘victim’ populations, with leadership largely drawn from this pool, militias will form a bulwark against the Indian Union of City States.
City states already exist in all but name. Mumbai/Navi Mumbai; Delhi/New Delhi that would, in the foreseeable future, see an administration for the National Capital Region (NCR); Kolkata and Greater Kolkata; Chennai; Bengaluru; Hyderabad; and so on.
These metropolitan areas are already among the largest in the world. These will form security and trade corridor links with growing secondary hubs, and ultimately form a longer, secure chain that will run along northern and peninsular India’s extremities, approximating the present-day idea of the ‘Golden Quadrilateral’ system of expressways.
NCR will link northwards with Chandigarh and further on towards Jammu, which will form the northern bulwark of a re-ordered Indian state, with the loss of Kashmir Valley.
This corridor will travel southwest towards Jaipur to link with a hub in Ahmedabad and further, down towards Mumbai.
Mumbai will form the western hub along with an extension to Pune/Aurangabad, and form the link southward along the Konkan Coast with present-day Thiruvananthapuram (which will become part of the ocean-front city state of Kochi-Karwar).
A similar, south to east corridor will from here travel up to Chennai (then link with the inland hubs of Bengaluru and Hyderabad) as far as Vishakhapatnam; and then to the hinterland of Kolkata (Haldia) and finally to Kolkata. The intervening coastal space will be controlled by left-wing and tribal militias just short of the missile testing area of Chandipur on the southeastern edge of Orissa, which forms an important defence/ commercial zone along with Haldia. Militias will, however, control Orissa’s Paradip Port.
The north-to-east link will not be secure, as a severe breakdown of socio-economic and political cohesion, aided also by effects of the implosion of Nepal on account of a complete breakdown of the present-day political and economic process, will create vast null spaces devoid of ‘conventional’ administration. The region of the Gangetic plains will form a patchwork of rural and semi-urban communities that will be feudalistic in administration, collapsing into a ‘medieval’ format run by warlords or conglomerates of warlords.
The northern borderlands of this region will form alliances with the ‘Central’ Indian administration to oversee its ‘border defences’ by proxy. This will be to offset the southward push of displaced Nepali communities deeper into the Gangetic plains.
As the left-wing and tribal militia region will lie directly to the south of the Gangetic plains, the Government of India will have to deal with the possibility of warlords from the Gangetic plains entering into loose agreements with these militias to ensure flow of arms and ammunition and trade —including natural and chemical narcotics—and provide sanctuary for mutual benefit. These two groups will not impinge on the other’s territorial ambit after repeated failure of the Gangetic plains group/s to wrest control of central and eastern Indian mineral concentrations.
The United States of India
The concept of the ‘Centre’ of India will change. The Government of India will really be governing the United States of India, with a new Charter/ Constitution that provides for alliances with administrations of City States/ Hinterland Entities by agreement of their respective local representatives and referendum—unlike singular entities (as with the Subcontinent’s Partition exercise).
The ‘state’ or ‘province’ will merely be the hinterland to these cities, providing—with regional variations—food, industrial zones, trade parks, ports, airports, and defence hubs. Core areas of the City State will entirely be residential and service oriented. It will not be unusual for foreign governments or corporations to enter into separate diplomatic and business arrangements with preferred City States, after informing the ‘Central’ government.
The remainder of present-day Central, Centre-East, and Peninsular India will be outside the agglomeration of New States, dominated by several left-wing militias. Like the present-day Shan Region that forms the core of the so-called Golden Triangle of Myanmar, Laos and Thailand, the ‘Leaders’ or ‘Politburo’ of each region will hold sway over vast patches of territory.
This belt will comprise the present-day regions of Marathwada and Vidarbha in Mahrashtra; Chhattisgarh; Madhya Pradesh; Jharkhand; Orissa; and areas of West Bengal that have not been swamped by a population shift that moves steadily westward.
These pseudo-socialist zones will skirmish or maintain peace with the other, essentially to protect territories of agrarian activity, but overwhelmingly to control mineral resources and rivers/waterways in their territories. The Narmada river system; Mahanadi river system; and Godavari river system, for example, will be part of these zones.
The entity known as United States of India will enter into separate arrangements with the administrations of these militia-controlled regions for procuring primary materials and metals. Also, to ensure waterway flows, in exchange for major concessions—including maintenance of status quo until the ‘national’ entity feels suitably strengthened to begin to make forays to reclaim territory from warlords and militias.
This status quo, however, will remain in place for a considerable time. After a period of great churn leading to major dislocation of primary economic activity, there will be a balance imposed by realisation by ‘Indian’ authorities that, strategically, the requirement of troops and defensive/ offensive capability is more crucial along western, northern and eastern borders. Equally, that policing capabilities will be of critical value for maintaining control/ peace in the City States and Hinterlands. Safe-Passage Agreements for goods/ produce with warlord- and militia-controlled areas will, therefore, be of realpolitik value.
A further play of reality will come to emerge on account of protecting business and industry. There will be vast paramilitary commitment to protect business enclaves (including Economic Zones); factory sites; power plants; dams and waterways; highways and subsidiary roads. Urban policing will be more ‘militarised, with forces trained in urban warfare. The penal system will be among the first ‘infrastructure’ spaces to be upgraded. This is a natural progression in spaces that will have among the densest and most inequitable conditions on the planet.
There will be a growing incidence of urban and industrial areas controlled entirely by business in nominal partnership with administrators—a more concretised version of, for example, the system in Jamshedpur, which is run by the Jamshedpur Notified Area Committee, on which executives of the Tata Group and its nominees have representation, as does the Government of Jharkhand. (In this scenario, Jamshedpur will be over-run. The Tata Group and other businesses will have to sue for peace with militias.)
This realisation will be arrived at after a series of developments in relatively rapid succession in a matter of 5-15 years: a massive tribal uprising along central, eastern and southern areas as a reaction to large infusion of troops by India to protect mineral and related production areas. This will be managed by successors of present-day Maoists and newer left-wing militias that will ride on spontaneous outbursts and procurement of arms. After cities like Raipur, Jamshedpur and Nagpur are over-run by these militias, there will be strong public and business demands in other parts of India to impeach the administration of the day in New Delhi and demand a rethink of the Constitution, and insist on a new Charter of Unity.
A Proxy War with China
By this time, West Bengal would be under severe pressure to staunch the inward migration from Bangladesh; and Nepal would have imploded, leading to a proxy war there between China and India. Proxy wars would also have erupted between the two countries of Bhutan and Sikkim, leading to the increasing vulnerability of the so-called Chicken’s Neck region in West Bengal—for long the post-Partition gateway for India to its northeastern region, and the corridor to enable force projection against China in the eastern sector.
Waterway and roadway treaties signed with Bangladesh would have long-collapsed on account of turmoil in that country, leading to a squeeze in transit of goods and people from ‘Mainland’ India to Northeastern India.
This will lead the Northeast to effectively become another area of proxy war between China and India. While China will retain the advantage of a superior logistics position, India will attempt to use a counter-faction in Myanmar to supply proxy wars from western and southwestern Myanmar to retain control of the various tribal homelands in the present-day Northeast. Global opinion will ensure the conflict remains a non-nuclear one, bolstered by the heightened presence of Nato and Asean navies, air defence forces and troops in the Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean area.
As a concurrent development, there will be a move towards greater ‘nationalism’ and an accompanying consolidation of right-of-centre ideologies and politics—though not necessarily through present-day political approaches.
The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in its current form would lose meaning. The Congress would move closer to the right in its actions. The driving force of this shift will be a sense of survival—an ‘Indian-ness’ that has organically evolved since Partition in vast areas of the Republic of India, even as this sentiment/reality has fallen woefully short in other areas.
If we do not make substantial changes to our political and administrative setup soon(infact we have to completely revamp them) then we are going to end up like Pakistan within 2 decades.In my opinion the current form of Parliamentary democracy that we practice has run its course and is of extremely limited or no utility in future.The very foundation of a Nation State is justice and this parliamentary system has been totally ineffective in dispensing it.
As Rahul Mehta and Vera k earlier have said at this point of time we do need Direct elections for certain posts(PM,CM etc) akin to presidential semocracy,Right to recall and even Right to bear arms.
Those who are justifying corruption and want to legalise it might want to explain what happens when Armed Forces too become corrupt(relatively they are stll much cleaner).
Last edited by darshhan on 22 Nov 2010 01:01, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Where did I judge that, say or every imply huh? I am saying we can not blame just any one varg; if we take collective pride then let us be ready to take collective shame too. No where I have ever said leaders are good and ONLY people are to blame.Pranav wrote:The higher the rank, the graver the crime. You can't judge a peon by the same yardstick that you use for Sonia Gandhi.SwamyG wrote: This penchant to ONLY blame the politicians and babus is BIG cop out and one reason why we are progressing and reforming slowly.
Seriously some of you need to have the patience to read what is being written before jumping up and down.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
Folks are unfortunately ranting too much on this thread as opposed to finding some important linkages. Let me try fro the following post. See the one in red below.
http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galax ... 58074.html
Westland Helicopters - Does anyone remember the story of these helicopters in India during late 80s? Pawan Hans, Rajiv Gandhi, Margaret Thacher and the story goes on. Here is some portion of the story.Acharya wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nira_Radia
Nira Radia is an Indian PR consultant and lobbyist with a British passport.[1] She came into prominence after several tapes allegedly recorded by the Indian Income Tax Department in 2008-09 [2] showed her lobbying for appointment of Cabinet Ministers ex DMK, including A Raja, through influential journalist Barkha Dutt and DMK chief Karunanidhi's daughter Kanimozhi[3][4].
She was subsequently shown involved in influencing the highly controversial 2G spectrum allotment in 2008 by lobbying with A Raja[5], resulting in an alleged swindling of $39bn as per BBC[6], in what is supposedly the biggest financial and economic crime in India till date. [7][8][9]. The tapes which were first made public by the OPEN magazine also featured prominent Indian journalist Vir Sanghvi setting agendas dictated by Radia [10].
[edit] Biography
Radia's family had moved to Britain after they fled Lagos, Nigeria, in the aftermath of the Idi Amin-led upheaval in Uganda in the 1970s, and she, the youngest sibling of four sisters and a brother, grew up in Londons suburbia.
Nira Radia's father, who converted to Islam and was rechristened Iqbal Menon, was an agent for Westland Helicopters in East Africa, and soon started an aircraft charter business in the UK.[citation needed]
A British citizen, Radia moved from England to Surajkund, India with her three sons after her marriage to a Kutchi businessman, Janak Radia failed.[11] In 2003, Dheeraj Singh, a business partner, was arrested with an accomplice for allegedly kidnapping her 18-year-old son.[12]
http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galax ... 58074.html
So the summary for me is that the entire corruption and money laundering by Sonia via Rajiv ( ok to be politically correct for some gentlement here let me say alleged and not yet proven ) just continued into UPA. The earlier shady mafia is still there and is intact and the loot is just continuing. This Radia is just a new gen person in the mafia.India has sold its entire fleet of Westland helicopters back to Britain for the scrap value of just £900,000, nine years after the machines were found to be technically faulty and grounded.
In an ignominious epilogue to the Westland saga, nine of the 19 helicopters acquired by India for £65m in the mid-1980s have been shipped back to the UK to be stripped down for spare parts. The second and final consignment is expected to leave Bombay by the end of the year.
India's state-owned helicopter firm, Pawan Hans Helicopters, which operated the Westland 30s, dispatched the first shipment to AES Aerospace, a British firm based in West Sussex, in July. The flawed machines had spent the previous eight years rusting in crates at New Delhi's Safdarjung airport.
"We have not made any firm plans about what to do with them," AES's managing director, Vic Aven, said last night. The contract to ship the helicopters back to his firm's depot in East Grinstead was agreed two-and-a-half years ago but only signed last year, he said. He denied that the final shipment had been withheld due to "payment problems". The troubled helicopters might be repaired and flown commercially, he added.
India bought 21 Westland 30s in 1985 after Margaret Thatcher persuaded Rajiv Gandhi, then prime minister, to ignore the advice of his aviation experts, who were against the sale. The money came out of Britain's aid budget and was given to India on condition it bought the helicopters.
The deal - later described by officials as a "catastrophic waste of money" - bailed Westland and Mrs Thatcher out of trouble (though it failed to prevent the resignation of Michael Heseltine, then defence secretary).
The 14-seater Westland 30s proved to be highly unreliable and a commercial disaster. Soon after their arrival in India in 1987 two crashed - one in the north Indian state of Jammu, and another in Nagaland killing 10 people. They proved to be unsuited to the tropical climate, needed constant servicing and repairs, and were flown only sporadically.
In 1991 the helicopters were withdrawn from service on safety grounds. Two years later, after obtaining permission from the British government under the original 1985 "sale" agreement, Pawan Hans invited global tenders for the Westland 30s. But no one wanted to pay the £1.9m reserve price. Eventually AES Aerospace emerged as sole bidder. So far it has paid £450,000, half the sale price.
Last night Pawan Hans said that the return of the helicopters to Britain would soon be completed.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
While I agree we have deviated to quiet an extent here; but if one if going to point to foreign passport holders, I am afraid we might have many in BRF itself, no?Acharya wrote: I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
What a brilliant and as@$@! Analysis by Vera and co
it's not PIO and OCI to blame but the stupid greed of RI
just line up the guys offering bribe or pedeling influence
I don't think Dawoos Bahia is NRI or PIO anymore no?
it's not PIO and OCI to blame but the stupid greed of RI
just line up the guys offering bribe or pedeling influence
I don't think Dawoos Bahia is NRI or PIO anymore no?
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
You mean they are also involved in the scam. Are they like Nira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nira_Radia- who deals with the politicians and power brokers during cabinet and business deals.SwamyG wrote:While I agree we have deviated to quiet an extent here; but if one if going to point to foreign passport holders, I am afraid we might have many in BRF itself, no?Acharya wrote: I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
I know you recommended we ignore each others posts, but I am a too corrupted-a-mind to honor it... so here it goes swamyG-garuSwamyG wrote:Where did I judge that, say or every imply huh? I am saying we can not blame just any one varg; if we take collective pride then let us be ready to take collective shame too. No where I have ever said leaders are good and ONLY people are to blame.

Collective shame - As in whole India paying with 60 years of blood and money for the decision of one man in JK and Aksai-chin? Or whole India hanging their heads in collective shame for the political jealosy of some individuals post-godhra riots?
On the otherhand, the collective pride truly came from collective hardwork and sacrifices, be it 1972, 1974, or 1998.
This is another problem with bringing the "collective" shame/blame to every issue.While I agree we have deviated to quiet an extent here; but if one if going to point to foreign passport holders, I am afraid we might have many in BRF itself, no?
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Law of the land should not and cannot run at group level. It handles the issues at individual level. Did an individual commit a crime per laws of the land? If yes, punish him/her.
In 2-G spectrum issue too that is what needs to be done. If an individual include the PM or super-PM has done anything wrong they should be punished. Same goes to RNIs, NRIs, and NIs.
If this is done without any compromise and excuse, collective corruption too will start going down one individual at a time.
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
That's a very important point. India has lot of wealth. It is quite rich country, but inhabited by very poor people too. The systems have encouraged looters to plunder its wealth and render the poor to destitution. This has continued for sometime. Now, with the people in power, it looks like it is not just greed, that's in play. The corruption is used as a tool to keep India, a rich country, to be perrenially inhabited by poor people. Corruption has probably become a strategic asset for who wants to exploit it. Subversion through corruption, makes India not only loose money, but also erode independence.Acharya wrote: I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.
Are the king pins of corruption being strategically deployed?
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Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
^ That reminds what sri KS garu said (Ramanaji's post)
The next generation wars will be played in economic domain. Perhaps we are seeing the next EIC in making.
And our head-constable is caught sleeping at the door.
The next generation wars will be played in economic domain. Perhaps we are seeing the next EIC in making.
And our head-constable is caught sleeping at the door.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
RamaY wrote:^ That reminds what sri KS garu said (Ramanaji's post)
The next generation wars will be played in economic domain. Perhaps we are seeing the next EIC in making.
And our head-constable is caught sleeping at the door.
He was made head-constable in the part of the process. Why is he caught? when his assigned role is that one.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
The image was built but that is not enough. enforcing the rule of law at the top is important.ShyamSP wrote:
He was made head-constable in the part of the process. Why is he caught? when his assigned role is that one.
http://www.mkgandhi.org/mgmnt.htm#politics
Politics Without Principle
If there is no principle, there is no true north, nothing you can depend upon. The focus on the personality ethic is the instant creation of an image that sells well in the social and economic marketplace.
You see politicians spending millions of dollars to create an image, even though it's superficial, lacking substance, in order to get votes and gain office. And when it works, it leads to a political system operating independently of the natural laws that should govern - - that are built into the Declaration of Independence : "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness . . . . "
In other words, they are describing self-evident, external, observable, natural, unarguable, self-evident laws: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident." The key to a healthy society is to get the social will, the value system, aligned with correct principles. You then have the compass needle pointing to true north - true north representing the external or the natural law - and the indicator says that is what we are building our value system on : they are aligned.
Re: Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up
People are pissed off and will go angrily press button for non-congress candidates in the next elections. Congress wins by thumping majority. NDTV with mostly like Burqa Dutta will be hosting a program on how communal propaganda on Sonia got defeated.JwalaMukhi wrote:That's a very important point. India has lot of wealth. It is quite rich country, but inhabited by very poor people too. The systems have encouraged looters to plunder its wealth and render the poor to destitution. This has continued for sometime. Now, with the people in power, it looks like it is not just greed, that's in play. The corruption is used as a tool to keep India, a rich country, to be perrenially inhabited by poor people. Corruption has probably become a strategic asset for who wants to exploit it. Subversion through corruption, makes India not only loose money, but also erode independence.Acharya wrote: I felt the same way. Here now 2-G is also a national security angle since foreign passport holders are in the middle of this mega scandal. Links to other govts have to be found out.
Are the king pins of corruption being strategically deployed?
Last edited by ShyamSP on 22 Nov 2010 04:27, edited 1 time in total.