Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 22 Nov 2010 03:07

India is and was never a poor country, It has been plundered and poorly managed country.

Because we are a chalta hai nation and ise each chelga

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 22 Nov 2010 03:58

So has Burqa Dutt got away with this? It appears the media wallas have closed ranks and are hoping viewers will soon forget or ignore this episode.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Nov 2010 04:25

http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... -in-india/

DEATH OF PUBLIC OUTRAGE IN INDIA
By janamejayan
Tuesday, November 9, 2010
V SUNDARAM I.A.S (r)

The unscrupulous politicians of India are declaring every day that private character has virtually no impact on governing public character. What matters above all is a healthy economy and that moral authority is defined solely by how well a Prime Minister or a Cabinet Minister deals with public policy matters. If these arguments are allowed to become legal tender in the public realm, we, the ordinary people of India, would have validated them and all of us will come to rue the day we did so. We should all remember that these sordid and unscrupulous arguments define us down; they assume a lower common denominator of behaviour and leadership than we Indians, as responsible citizens, ought to accept.
And if we do accept it, we will have committed an unthinking act of moral and intellectual disarmament. In the realm of Indian ideals and the great tradition of public debate, the high ground will have been lost. And when we need to rely again on this high ground, as surely as we will need to from time to time in the future, we will find it drained of its compelling moral power. We cannot allow our unscrupulous politicians to define public morality down.

The following table gives a clear idea about how the unquestioned hereditary
principle has operated at all levels in India after independence:

Prime Leader

Indira Gandhi, Sanjay Gandhi,
Maneka Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi,
Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi,
Priyanka Gandhi
Ravi Shankar Shukla
V. C Shukla, S. C Shukla
Karunakaran
Muraleedharan
M. Karunanidhi
M.K Stalin, Alagiri, Kanimozhi
G.K Moopanar
G.K Vasan
Dr S. Ramdass
Anbumani
Murasoli Maran
Dayanidhi Maran
Sheik Abdullah
Farook Abdullah, Omar Abdullah
Rafi Ahmed Kidwai
Mohsina Kidwai
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad Najma Heptullah
Charan Singh
Ajit Singh
Devi Lal
Chautala, Ranjit Singh
G.B Pant
K.C Pant
V.P Naik
Shalini Naik
Sharad Pawar
Supriya Sule
P.A Sangma
Agatha Sangma

Jawaharlal Nehru

Family Members

SOON AFTER INDEPENDENCE, THE CONGRESS PARTY CREATED A
POLITICALLY FASHIONABLE PERSONALITY CULT TO PUBLICLY PROCLAIM
ABOUT THE EXCEPTIONAL AND OUTSTANDING QUALITIES OF SOME OF ITS
LEADERS AND POLITICAL HEROES. BY THE ORCHESTRATED REPETITION
OF SEVERAL SUCH FALSEHOODS, THE CONGRESS PARTY CREATED A MAKE-
BELIEVE NATION. Nehru worship till 1962 was one such deliberate exercise
in cult. There was never any objective evaluation of Nehru, his ideas, his
achievements, his contradictions, his successes, his follies and his failures.
And of course there was no evaluation of the long-term impact of his catastrophic
economic policy and foreign policy failures. Everything Nehru did, real or
imaginary, and what he failed to do were all camouflaged in a humdrum
of raucous praises. The Congress party, after independence, converted
politics into a sordid arena of business not only for the Nehru family but also
for every leading member of the Congress party.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Nov 2010 04:54

Acharya wrote: You mean they are also involved in the scam. Are they like Nira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nira_Radia- who deals with the politicians and power brokers during cabinet and business deals.

No I DO NOT mean that.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Nov 2010 04:54

sunnyP wrote:So has Burqa Dutt got away with this? It appears the media wallas have closed ranks and are hoping viewers will soon forget or ignore this episode.

I have no hope something will happen in this era. I pray that I am still wrong. Atleast for this maginitude, even the most powerful like Rajiv Gandhi lost polls. There is no will power to change the governments. Anti incumbancy, anger against government due to price rise or corruption is dead. By that logic, there is no poor in India too.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Nov 2010 04:55

SwamyG wrote:
No I DO NOT mean that.

Then general NRIs dont matter

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 22 Nov 2010 05:25

Sakai Gaya Mai wahi purana
Tera bahana
kuchna Karan
wada toh nibhaya
oh mera Raja

Johny mera nam

hotome aise ba'ath Mai Daba ki
cheli ayee
hai re hai

jewel thief

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 22 Nov 2010 05:27

It is going to be very difficult to ascertain if the corruption flows top down or bottom up because corruption is everywhere. It is almost as omnipresent as God. In that respect Shiv has the right pulse on India. My own observations of India concur with his. As such corruption is a very broad term and many acts can be really characterized as corrupt. Why just stop at the elites of India? One thing I have learnt about politicians is that they are a cream of Indian society as much as IITians or IIM graduates are in their own respective fields. Managing crores of people takes immense amount of various skills that too when there are so many others competing with them to rule those crores. When you distill common Indians for intelligence and put other qualities in them you get Indian politicians.

I have heard numerous times that all the politicians should be killed only then the country will progress. Even if such a thing is possible and done nothing much will happen. There are many more competitors of these elites just waiting in the wing to take the reins and they are as bad as current elites. Major reason that they are not the elites is simply because the elites are better than them at what they do. In other words we cannot escape pinning the blame on elites. The rot is everywhere.

As we all know corruption comes in various shapes, sizes and disguises. It is a much wider phenomenon that we typically see. It is very much related to morality which is not limited to elites only. Since we are discussing about it on BRF let us talk about morality of people without power. Assuming a majority here is from IT field let us take that example. I have seen many people using fake resumes to get a job. Is it corruption? So far nobody has said that they do it because elites are corrupt. They do not fake their resumes because Narayan Murthy faked his credentials or Azim Premji did it. They are honest in admitting that they do it for their own sake, to get job. Also It is often seen that people indulge in tactics at work to increase their importance by creating dependency on themselves? Some really deserving candidates may loose positions or even jobs due to these people. Now is it a mere self preservation or can it be characterized as morally corrupt practice?

The whole point as Shiv mentioned is that a lot of people are corrupt in one way or the other. Elites are more corrupt simply because they have power and hence afford to be more corrupt. Just making those elites disappear will not solve the problem of corruption. Second rung elites will simply replace them and the same thing will continue. Solution to this problem lies somewhere else. I will post my thoughts on that in a separate post as it is OT so admins can delete it if they think it does not add value.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 22 Nov 2010 05:27

.

People behave only in two situations. Either when they are afraid of law or when they are afraid of God.

Now the problem is people are not uniformly afraid of law. Only the weaker section is afraid of law and the powerful ones have ways to bend the laws to suit their interests. In the hierarchy of society as the power increases fear of law decreases. There are various shades of this in between. Hence law will not be able to uniformly make people behave. It is important to motivate the people to see how beneficial it is for them to get rid of corruption. Nothing much will happen without the support of masses. One way to do that is to instill the fear of God. This is where religion as an instrument comes into picture. Unfortunately I have to say that the religion of majority Indians that is Hinduism fails miserably on this front. Allow me to explain.

I will start with anecdotal experience of myself and my friends. While growing up I did not have business acumen (neither do I have now) but still ventured into selling petty stuff then. All my impression of business was that it is all about corruption and cheating others to make a gain for ourselves. This was picked up from the surrounding, from the perception of older friends or family members etc. I bought some stuff from the market then padded it with paper and sold it to others to make less than five rupees. Now it sounds really really stupid but at that time it was a triumph of doing business or in other words indulging in corruption as that was the idea of business. I was too young (in school at the time), too naive, too stupid then but growing up discussions between friends continued. A friend of mine openly and shamelessly supported corruption and declared that he do not see it as wrong but rather just a necessary evil. Now we all are grown up and recently when he bought a new car we went on a joy ride and at an intersection where other vehicles were stopped he found a small space on the side and brazenly crossed the red light and fled. I was sitting next to him and was aghast. As if that was not enough he turned to me with smile on his face and a sparkle in his eyes and pointed backwards to vehicles stopped at the light and said they are loosers for stopping at the light. I was speechless. All this happened in one of the Indian metros. It taught me that there is no fear of law. This guy is far from being an elite and still sees no reason to behave.

Now you guys can choose to brush this all aside saying I was raised in a dysfunctional environment but that is certainly not the case. At least some of you must have experienced similar incidences while growing up. Many of the people who may be corrupt in certain cases or certain phases of life are successful in contemporary terms of the word. Being corrupt did not hinder their success instead helped them in certain cases. So what is the harm in corruption? Just use the same trick and more successful you get. The more powerful you become the more corruption you can afford to do and even more successful you become.

Coming back to original theme of this post it is all about lack of fear of law or God. As I realized that the rot is not limited to elites I started thinking about the reasons of such a case. What can cause such a problem on such a massive scale? Answer is, it is either wrong training or the lack of training. At this point it was clear to me that I was part of the second group. My training was limited to what I got in school that too only initial years and training from my parents. Besides this I was like a raw animal left in this world to learn on my own from my experiences. It takes a lot of courage to be morally uptight. How do one get that courage? It was all left on me to figure out. Later as I witnessed it was the same case with my relatives and friends. Learn yourself and make yourself.

A lot of people face this problem but then they are left to the mercy of their luck. Those fortunate enough to get right associations and experiences turn into good human beings and some unfortunate ones turn into criminals. Majority of people fall between these two extremes. As relevant to this thread, various shades of corruption. In my case after around 7th standard in school it was all about competition, studying maths & science, earning good scores etc. My training was mostly focused on that. Making me a good human being was then left to my parents or on myself. I wonder how many BRFites got a formal training after their school years on not judging people or not being too greedy or how to gain courage to become morally strong. Please note the emphasis on formal training and discount the learning by experience. Learning by experience is not inferior but the problem with it is that it is not uniform and produces very uneven results. There is no pattern between people that is required to create a cohesive society.

Now interesting question is "Is this the case everywhere"? Answer I found was "Certainly not". There are better ways of training or polishing the the people mainly younger generation to make them successful without making them think that tedhi ungli is the only way to get ghee. In my pursuit of finding the solution one day had a unique opportunity. Got an invitation to join the Church. I went ahead and joined and found a distinct difference between my experience in Hindu temples and the church. The preacher was very good in explaining the Bible and relating it todays world. There were many lessons I learnt that I wished I had learnt much earlier. To give one quick example he preached about why thoughts should be watched and how thoughts leads to actions, actions lead to habits and habits leads to character. I had some ideas about it earlier too but nobody had taught that to me formally. There were many such lessons to learn. Also it made a lot difference due to me being well grown up now and have plenty of experience to back me. What I had to learn on my own hard way during my younger years was being repeatedly taught to kids day in and day out.
y
My apologies for a ridiculously long post, so I will wind up quickly...that church experience lasted for quite a while and then gradually ended. Apart from all the nice teachings, it involved political tones including current day politics which made me very uncomfortable. The final straw was when the preacher supported smuggling Bible in Iraq and urged everybody to get together and support the cause in whatever they can. So all the good training was accompanied with "this" training as well. In short my initial enthusiasm turned into disappointment and also realized that there is no magic in making a society else many countries with a majority following specific ideology would be flawless but are far from it.

On a side note, as I moved on, I found some Hindu institutions as well that provide formal training about these ideas but unfortunately are not as mainstream as the Church is so they are just an extended version of school or parent training in that it is limited to only those who seek for it as opposed to the active participation sought by the Church.

Finally want to summarize my finding that we are what we are trained to be. All the strengths and weaknesses of "The West" and the "Arabic Peninsula" is due to the training their population got. It is up to us to learn from others and pick up and implement good ideas from where ever we get otherwise future generations of BRFites will repeat todays BR spirit "WE ARE LIKE THAT ONLEE".

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 22 Nov 2010 05:57

Everybody in India knows that whole country runs on corruption and scams
hence there is no outrage the country is highly cynical and have already factored the costs into pricing their product and services
I feel we as citizens are shafted for along times

added later
comparing IT fake resume to custodians of the nation is great BS

public service is not IT job
after getting the job if the chap does not perform he is fired

the problem we have in india is institutional failure to discharge duty
that's entirely different ball game
so postulate half baked piscology
thanks

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 22 Nov 2010 06:04

http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/columnis ... 24477.html

Things are going so badly for the Congress that princeling Rahul Gandhi this week in UP announced he was finally getting married. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is rumoured to have considered quitting once the Supreme Court asked why he sat on his hands while A Raja was looting the country.

Not so fast. It is like mafia. once in, decision of being out is with the cabal.

Despite Subramanian Swamy’s complaint against Raja in the 2G scam, the prime minister reappointed Raja as telecom minister in UPA-II. For his passive collusion the prime minister is guilty. India’s dirtiest scam has claimed India’s cleanest PM.

Our prime minister is such a brave man that faced by a SC tongue-lashing, all he can think to do is remove the Solicitor-General. The only way he would go would be due to pressure from the Opposition. So would it not be better for the Opposition to persist with the pressure on the government vis-à-vis the investigation into the 2G scam, force it in the proper direction to its logical conclusion and at the doorsteps of the highest and the mightiest? This is after all, the biggest scam that has come out into the open in Indian public life.

Read it all. jai ho. wedding bells eh?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Nov 2010 06:05

The media has been bought over for the last 30 years and it a tool of the political and business group which are the main drivers of corruption

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Nov 2010 06:26

Only if we have strong participation in politics from honest middle class citizens (must be majority), we can see a strong value for zero tolerance on corruption. It starts at home when a mother feeds the baby and dad teaches about good virtues. It is going take another 50 years if we think positive on this now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 06:37

darshhan wrote:
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ic-tsunami

Darshan thanks for posting this thought provoking article. The interesting thing about the widespread occurrence of personal greed that takes precedence over national interest is the difference in scale of consequences at a personal and national level.

If 50 crore consumers of electricity manage to avoid paying Rs 100 a month towards their electricity bills (by some form of cheating) the electricity boards will lose 60,000 crores a year. But the electricity boards are already making perhaps 10 times that amount - assume 600,000 crores. If one corrupt politician sets aside 1% of that for family and party and friends he makes 6000 crores. In this hypothetical scenario the country loses 66,000 crores but the country is still earning more 590,000 crores and every one of 50 crore consumers benefits a little from cheating. The minister benefits more. But everyone is cheating. Percentage wise the minister may be cheating less than a consumer who may be getting 10% less in his bill. The minister is taking only 1%.

Everyone feels happy that he is gaining a little. The country is not losing much. But a new problem arises when you try and correct this. Electricity boards take action to stop this theft (Various things are being done - won't go into detail). Small consumers get angry and may protest - but they can't do much. But the big politicians are unfazed by this. They are still skimming 1% of 6 lakh crore plus. If you try and stop them they react in ways where they say they will bring the country down. This is extremely common. It all depends on how powerful the corrupt man is:

Look at al the recent scams:
1) IPL scam: Modi not powerful - ran out of country
2) CWG scam: Kalmadi not powerful enough: Runs out of country
3) Karnataka mining scam: Reddy brothers very powerful. Threaten to bring down government. Nothing happens
4) Yediyurappa housing/land scam: Yeddi threatens to bring down the Karnataka government
5) 2G scam- Spectrum Raja is influential. The central government can lose DMK support and may fall. So nothing will happen.

The rise of regional parties is like the rise of regional satraps. Central parties ignore the corruption of regional parties. Regional power brokers ignore the corruption of their supporters. Each of these supporters bring votes by allowing a vote bank to gain advantage at the expense of the country. (eg keep a slum from being improved but bribe with sarees, TV sets etc)

The government at the center is is supported by a vast number of corrupt people who in turn are supported by corrupt people below them. Personal greed and survival of all the parties requires that all the corrupt people cooperate and not bring the government down. The only way the government can be brought down is by an alternate set of greedy and corrupt people with their own independent "grass roots" support.

In this sort of system if a great leader arises in say Karnataka and says that Karnataka is a fertile land with its own ports, its own infratsructure etc but the state is losing out because of a corrupt central government supporting corrupt people in BIMARU states the stage is being set for a powerful regional party that can affect the center (at best). At worst you can have a situation in which the state (Kanataka state) wants to break free as an independent republic. The movement can get stronger if Karnataka and Tamil Nadu can cooperate.

The country stays together ONLY because the people are basically patriotic for the land. But that patriotism does not go so far as to allow people to understand the message of how small acts of personal greed at every level translate up to massive greed and corruption at the top. Today I am a small man. I get great pleasure if I can retain 100 rupees from every 1000 rupees I handle. Tomorrow I win an election and I find myself handling the fate of 1000 crores. I retain only 1 crore for myself and feel I am less corrupt. But the fact is too many people are corrupt from bottom to top, top to bottom. Whichever way you want to look at it.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 22 Nov 2010 07:12

Here is a precedent.
So how many union ministers have actually been prosecuted and sent to prison so far?
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/exuni ... il/427948/

Former Union Communications Minister Sukh Ram was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in a 13-year-old disproportionate assets case by a New Delhi court on Wednesday. A fine of Rs 2 lakh was also imposed on him under the Prevention of Corruption Act.

Additional Sessions Judge V K Maheshwari observed, "Political corruption is the worst form because its consequences are far-reaching. When our leaders, who are the role models of society and whose actions should be above board, are themselves corrupt, how can we expect honesty and virtue from public at large?"

"If the public servants are corrupt, the whole structure of society would get upset and the policies of the government, howsoever beneficial it may be, would be adversely affected," the judge noted.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 22 Nov 2010 07:19

Thanks to Raja our prince will get married on the same shub muhoo rath
when prince William will get married
jai hind

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 22 Nov 2010 07:51

SwamyG wrote:
Pranav wrote: The higher the rank, the graver the crime. You can't judge a peon by the same yardstick that you use for Sonia Gandhi.
Where did I judge that, say or every imply huh? I am saying we can not blame just any one varg; if we take collective pride then let us be ready to take collective shame too. No where I have ever said leaders are good and ONLY people are to blame.

Seriously some of you need to have the patience to read what is being written before jumping up and down.

If you agree that the culpability primarily falls on the high command, then that is good. Nobody is saying that the peons and clerks are blameless.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Nov 2010 08:23

^^^^
Culpability at any level be it high or low level should be assigned on a case to case basis. What I am against is saying that ONLY leaders are to be blamed.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Nov 2010 08:47

ShivaS wrote:India is and was never a poor country, It has been plundered and poorly managed country.

Because we are a chalta hai nation and ise each chelga

that is one of the myths created IMO ShivaS garu. It is same as saying Hindus are timid against Islamic onslaught; which we learned to be untrue.

Indians defeated, without ambiguity, anyone who is against Indian interests. They are patient though as they prefer the leaders to have realization of their purpose and the national destiny. It started longtime back with Maareecha in Ramayana, Sisupala in Mahabharata etc...

All the mr. Clean image of MMS that helped UPA to win the second term is destroyed now. MMS mukhda is over for Rajamata. The real faces will be forced to take accountability and responsibility now

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Nov 2010 08:55

shiv wrote:If 50 crore consumers of electricity manage to avoid paying Rs 100 a month towards their electricity bills (by some form of cheating) the electricity boards will lose 60,000 crores a year.
If one corrupt politician sets aside 1% of that for family and party and friends he makes 6000 crores.

A somewhat off-topic post which is better suited to the "Know your India" thread, if it's still around.

This thread is about the 2G Spectrum sale scam. So in the telecom analogy, most of the crores of customers are neither cheating nor corrupt, because the cost of telecom services is so low that they happily pay their bills.

So it's futile claiming that the crores of citizens "cheat" in a larger proportion, while the individual politicians/bureaucrats/media flunkeys only took x percent of the loot..... This ginormous scam of Rs. 1,760,000,000,000 lies in depriving the nation of the proper price of the spectrum, it's not about those in charge skimming a little off the top. The full extent of people's involvement will be revealed when licences are canceled.....the alleged 10% of A Raja, the alleged 30% of Sonia, etc.

The main thing, as S Swamy says, is to provide protection to the scapegoats/masterminds like A Raja. In the past, politicians who became threats to their party leadership, have met "accidental" deaths. Naming them would be somewhat off-topic

.

MMS statement on the 2G spectrum auction in 2007

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stressed the efficient use of spectrum as it is a limited resource. “We must realise that we need to make use of this precious and limited resource optimally. All technological options must be explored to maximise its utilisation,” said Singh.

Focusing on the revenue potential of spectrum, Singh said, “The revenue potential to the Government must not be lost sight of. After all, governments across the globe have harnessed substantial revenues while allocating spectrum.”

In Europe and the USA, spectrum is auctioned and governments earn substantial amounts. For example, in the USA the reserve price for spectrum in 700 MHz band is $10 billion.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Nov 2010 09:07

If 50 crore consumers of electricity manage to avoid paying Rs 100 a month towards their electricity bills (by some form of cheating) the electricity boards will lose 60,000 crores a year. But the electricity boards are already making perhaps 10 times that amount - assume 600,000 crores. If one corrupt politician sets aside 1% of that for family and party and friends he makes 6000 crores. In this hypothetical scenario the country loses 66,000 crores but the country is still earning more 590,000 crores and every one of 50 crore consumers benefits a little from cheating. The minister benefits more. But everyone is cheating. Percentage wise the minister may be cheating less than a consumer who may be getting 10% less in his bill. The minister is taking only 1%.

Shame on you Shiv-ji!

You are blaming 50 crore consumers (Indian average family size is about 5 by the way) to hide a PM questioned by SC for his inaction. What a sad way to present a POV.

What next? That INC is taking only $50 (<3%) from a $1.5T economy while running it at 8% growth rate and india is better off with 5% net growth and compare it with USA GDP growth rate???

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 09:09

Airavat wrote: So it's futile claiming that the crores of citizens "cheat" in a larger proportion, while the individual politicians/bureaucrats/media flunkeys only took x percent of the loot.

I have made no such claim sir. I have stated that it is a hypothetical analogy. The larger point is that this 170,000 crores is money that came in to the government from people who paid that money. That money was not paid by the most suitable parties. It was paid by business houses that were willing to pay large sums to the political coffers.

There is a bribe giver and a bribe taker here. The bribe taker (politician) gains initially, and the bribe giver (business house) seems to lose. But he is merely competing against other business houses and wins by unfair means and makes up his money very quickly by charging miniscule amounts of money to several hundred million cellphone users. All you need to do is fiddle with the pricing of an SMS of which billions are sent every day in Indai with a cellphone base of 500 million.

Who has lost anything in this scam?

The customers lose a few paise. They don't notice or fight that as long as the customer base is continuously rising. It is rising a 15 million cellphone customers a month. The business houses that lost honest bids do not actually lose money. The business house that wins by bribery makes up its money because all those thousands of crores can be made up by fiddling with prices at the consumer level. In this case the biggest gainers are the politicians. But the customers do not lose much. Only a few paise. In fact because of new users coming in even that "loss" may not be seen. It is a lovely scam. These scams work because they are such great scams. The losses are minimal and spread out. The gains are enormous.

Teh scope for such "perfect scams" are enormous. We are talking about this only because it is so big and has hit the headlines. If we could only have a new 26/11 in a few days this scam will be forgotten by the media. It is only one of many.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 09:12

RamaY wrote:
Shame on you Shiv-ji!

Stop talking crap.

I am an utterly shameless person. But in India that makes me a patriot. Shame is meant for people with a conscience. In a dog eat dog nation a person who feels shame is the real "moorkh". Better to stick to your scriptures and meditation. It is a nice balm to cover for reality.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 22 Nov 2010 09:14

SwamyG wrote:^^^^
Culpability at any level be it high or low level should be assigned on a case to case basis. What I am against is saying that ONLY leaders are to be blamed.

The peon is not responsible if Sonia's Italian relatives get their hands on loot. On the other hand, the leader is responsible for corruption at any level.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 22 Nov 2010 09:18

shiv wrote:
If 50 crore consumers of electricity manage to avoid paying Rs 100 a month towards their electricity bills (by some form of cheating) the electricity boards will lose 60,000 crores a year. But the electricity boards are already making perhaps 10 times that amount - assume 600,000 crores. If one corrupt politician sets aside 1% of that for family and party and friends he makes 6000 crores. In this hypothetical scenario the country loses 66,000 crores but the country is still earning more 590,000 crores and every one of 50 crore consumers benefits a little from cheating. The minister benefits more. But everyone is cheating. Percentage wise the minister may be cheating less than a consumer who may be getting 10% less in his bill. The minister is taking only 1%.

.

I would take note of a fundamental law of economics here, which states that logical decisions can only be based on absolute numbers, and not percentages. And yet people base flawed decisions on percentages all the time.

For example. Let's say there is a TV set being sold in your town for $200, and in the next town for $100. Many consumers would happily drive to the next town instead of purchasing at their local store, thinking "I am getting it there for 50% off... half price!"

But let's say there is an item of jewelry being sold in your town for $2000, and in the next town for $1800. Market research shows it is far less likely that consumers would go to the next town to buy the item of jewelry, thinking "oh, it's just 10% difference, why spend the time and effort to drive all the way"... when actually they would be saving more money relative to the purchase of the TV set.

Percentages thus mean next to nothing when discussing economic choices, even the choices that corrupt people make and the rewards that accrue to them.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2010 09:18

The usual path of all large scams in India.

http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/columnis ... 24477.html

Cleanest PM, dirtiest scam

Aditya Sinha
20 Nov 2010

Things are going so badly for the Congress that princeling Rahul Gandhi this week in UP announced he was finally getting married. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is rumoured to have considered quitting once the Supreme Court asked why he sat on his hands while A Raja was looting the country. Congress chief Sonia Gandhi is rumoured to be irritated by the varying degrees of incompetence displayed by her government in defending itself in the 2G spectrum allocation scam. Pranab Mukherjee, attending a marriage in Madurai, said the alliance with the DMK was strong despite potential ally Vijayakanth’s open calls to dump Mr Kalaignar; but he said this only after he was told that if Raja is named as prime accused in the 2G chargesheet then Raja would ensure the PM is the second accused. Journalists close to the royal dynasty, including Barkha Dutt and others, have been recorded on telephone with public relations specialist Niira Radia, Dutt seemingly negotiating berths with the DMK after last year’s Lok Sabha elections; the transcripts of these tele-conversations have dealt a huge blow to the Congress’s media machine. Tonight, TV channels will show exit polls from the Bihar assembly elections, and it won’t be good news for the Congress. What a mess. Rahul, you have my blessings.

Yet it is this column’s view, today, that the prime minister should not resign. Yes, he has been an unimaginative head of government with a single-point agenda; and more than that, he has used the existence of a greater power centre — that of Sonia Gandhi — to avoid decisions on ticklish matters and to cling on at Race Course Road. As the 2G scam shows, he willfully allowed Raja and Co to take the nation for a ride. Despite Subramanian Swamy’s complaint against Raja in the 2G scam, the prime minister reappointed Raja as telecom minister in UPA-II. For his passive collusion the prime minister is guilty. India’s dirtiest scam has claimed India’s cleanest PM.

Acquiescence, however, does not mean actually dipping one’s beak into the till. Some experts estimate the money going to politicians from this deal was anywhere between `25,000 to `30,000 crores. A chunk of it is suspected to have found its way to a political party that would understandably need it to avoid defeat in its next state assembly elections. The rest? No prizes for guessing how high the big money went.

The talk in Delhi has been that much of the loot from the Commonwealth Games went to the same place. Such talk occasioned denials from the princeling’s advisor Kanishka Singh (son of former foreign secretary S K Singh, and a young man who apparently hopes to one day become super-PM) that he had any connection with the Dubai-based property developer Emaar-MGF, which made some serious money in constructing the CWG residential village. The point of the CWG-related corruption, however, is this: once chief organiser Suresh Kalmadi’s head rolled, the public and the media forgot about the scam. Sure, a few bureaucrats’ heads will roll (and some may even do prison-time), but without public pressure the justice system will not go near where the real money went.

The concern here is that if the prime minister were to resign for his passivity in the 2G scam, then it would naturally be a big deal, and our focus would shift. The public and the media would forget about the scam, thinking that investigations were in progress and that “the law will take its course”, as party spokesmen enjoy saying. Everyone would focus on the new prime minister, new government, and possibly new scams. And once again, the big fish to whom the big money went will slip away.

So I wonder whether it is worth it to get rid of the prime minister, though it is doubtful if he truly wants to resign (if he did, he wouldn’t threaten to do so; he would go ahead and do so). Our prime minister is such a brave man that faced by a SC tongue-lashing, all he can think to do is remove the Solicitor-General. The only way he would go would be due to pressure from the Opposition. So would it not be better for the Opposition to persist with the pressure on the government vis-à-vis the investigation into the 2G scam, force it in the proper direction to its logical conclusion and at the doorsteps of the highest and the mightiest? This is after all, the biggest scam that has come out into the open in Indian public life.

Or consider this: the government is in a tizzy and the prime minister is irretrievably weakened. A series of assembly elections are coming up, the climax of which will be UP, where, post-Ayodhya verdict, the Congress is extremely poorly placed. The princeling has obviously already got a whiff of the drubbing that he is going to get in UP in 2012. It could be the beginning of the end of his political career. Yes, there are those who think that a stint in Opposition will mature him as a politician. This is laughable. He is past 40 years of age, so there’s not much maturing left for him to do at this point. And he can only be effective in Opposition if he takes a stand on issues. As noted by the Economist lately, the princeling avoids taking a stand on most issues. He is only comfortable with bland positions on general issues like poverty, and that too, only in front of small, distant audiences. In Parliament, no matter how many wise advisors he surrounds himself, he will have to take charge. We have not seen any evidence of an ability to do so in his two terms as MP.

It would be a good Opposition strategy to keep the government off-balance and one way to do this is to ensure that the head of government remains a weak person. A replacement is an unknown quantity; and if it’s someone like Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit, then that could even work to the Congress’s advantage. With Manmohan Singh remaining PM, his government will continue its drift, the electorate will get fed up, and all of the princeling’s plans will implode.

Perhaps this is why Rahul Gandhi is suddenly in a hurry to get married. Things don’t look too sparkly for him and his party. Let the PM stay; for the Opposition’s party has only just begun.

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About The Author;

Aditya Sinha is the Editor-in-Chief of The New Indian Express and is based in Chennai

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Nov 2010 09:31

shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote:
Shame on you Shiv-ji!
Stop talking crap.

I am an utterly shameless person. But in India that makes me a patriot. Shame is meant for people with a conscience. In a dog eat dog nation a person who feels shame is the real "moorkh". Better to stick to your scriptures and meditation. It is a nice balm to cover for reality.

in a dog eats dog (they don't actually unlike RNIs) world what kind of dog one has to be to keep his dynasty in power?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Nov 2010 09:36

shiv wrote:Who has lost anything in this scam?

The exchequer of the GOI. Money which could have paid for upgrading defence capability, or invested in infrastructure projects, or indeed in providing sulabh toilets to millions (billions?).

reposting MMS statement in 2007: Singh said, “The revenue potential to the Government must not be lost sight of. After all, governments across the globe have harnessed substantial revenues while allocating spectrum.”

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 09:37

Rudradev wrote:
Percentages thus mean next to nothing when discussing economic choices, even the choices that corrupt people make and the rewards that accrue to them.

Percentages have been given a lot of meaning to people at a personal level. If I I am thirsty and there is only a baby's milk bottle accessible to me I will feel guilty and take "just a sip". If I am sitting next to an ocean - I take several buckets and don;t worry because it is, after all, an ocean. '

This is human behavior. My late father - I mean him no disrespect, but he was a PhD in Chemical Engineering from the US in he 1940s. I one asked him about effluents when I was old enough to understand and he told me that it was standard practice to discharge effluents into rivers because the amount of effluent would just be a drop in the ocean. Every single chemical company was quite free of any guilt because each one of them was only discharging a mere drop into the ocean. But 1,000,000 chemical companies started making a difference to the environment. One Bhopal gas tragedy is noticed more than 10 million minor leakages of gas or chemical.

There is an assumption that a 170,000 crore scam is really big and is not comparable to the minor corruption at a lower down level. the analogy is exactly like the chemical companies where were each is only discharging a drop into the ocean. It is significant, but we ignore it using some rationalization or the other that keeps us mentally comfortable. The same people who are minor offenders in a low post, when put in a high post become major offenders.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 09:40

Airavat wrote:
shiv wrote:Who has lost anything in this scam?
The exchequer of the GOI. Money which could have paid for upgrading defence capability, or invested in infrastructure projects, or indeed in providing sulabh toilets to millions (billions?).

reposting MMS statement in 2007: Singh said, “The revenue potential to the Government must not be lost sight of. After all, governments across the globe have harnessed substantial revenues while allocating spectrum.”

No. Money for that will easily come from people paying a few extra paise. It is a loss but it is not seen as a loss because the loss is passed on to hundreds of millions of customers in the guise of new services for which they pay a few paise extra. That is why scams work. The loot is spread out and diluted so much that nobody complains.

Your principles are right of course, But those principles do not exist across vast swathes of India. Scams are a dime a dozen. There are there everywhere, all around you in India. They come in all sizes. This is just the biggest one so far. But in total value of all scams it will only be a small percentage.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 22 Nov 2010 09:49

>>>Cleanest PM, dirtiest scam

That is not true IMO..If he is clean, he should not have allowed Raja for the second term as a minister. Still worse, with his active connivance Raja's secretary was made the CVC, when there is a corruption case pending against him in Kerala, and he had actively participated in the 2G scam. The dissent by the leader of opposition was disregarded while appointing the CVC.

How can people say the PM is clean? He is as corrupt as others. Only question is, whether he has taken his share of the loot or not.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 22 Nov 2010 09:51

No. Money for that will easily come from people paying a few extra paise. It is a loss but it is not seen as a loss because the loss is passed on to hundreds of millions of customers in the guise of new services for which they pay a few paise extra.

How will that few extra paise come to the Govt kitty? It will go to the service provider, isn't it?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 09:54

geeth wrote:
How will that few extra paise come to the Govt kitty? It will go to the service provider, isn't it?

The service provider who got the licence unfairly by paying the bribe will make up his bribe+licence money and make his profit. He will pay tax on the profit. The govt has already made licence money+bribe.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 22 Nov 2010 10:04

The service provider who got the licence unfairly by paying the bribe will make up his bribe+licence money and make his profit. He will pay tax on the profit. The govt has already made licence money+bribe.

According to CAG, the Govt has lost 1.75 Lakhs in 2G scam. Let us assume the figure is correct for the moment.

Now, irrespective of the amount paid to Govt, service tax/tax on profit is paid by the service providers (unless they under quote the number of subscribers, which is another scam by itself).

So, what is lost is lost and the Govt is not gonna get it back unless they re-auction the whole thing.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Nov 2010 10:12

shiv wrote:

No. Money for that will easily come from people paying a few extra paise.

What "extra" paise??

Prices for 2G services remain the same. Prices for 3G services are also low, despite the spectrum sale at higher prices. Moreover citizens would have paid money for services (and the corporates would have paid taxes) regardless of a scam taking place.

No sir. This ginormous sum will be realized when licences are canceled, the corporate thugs made to feel the heat, and the money trail traced.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 10:23

geeth wrote: According to CAG, the Govt has lost 1.75 Lakhs in 2G scam. Let us assume the figure is correct for the moment.

Now, irrespective of the amount paid to Govt, service tax/tax on profit is paid by the service providers (unless they under quote the number of subscribers, which is another scam by itself).

So, what is lost is lost and the Govt is not gonna get it back unless they re-auction the whole thing.

This is the crux of the issue. the government "could have realised" upto 160,000 crores had the auctioning and valuation been done differently. Since it was a "valuation" versus known cost it will be argued forever. But we do not yet know what else is under the surface.

These companies who got licences cheap apparently sold some licenses to others at very high prices. As far as I know the typical way I would set up a scam is as follows:

I, Shiva, am minister. I agree to a value of sale of a licence as 5000 crores. Others may value it at 15,000 crores. But I am valuing it (wrongly) at 5000 crores. I then sell the licence at the marked down price to my relative Vishnu. Vishnu is my illegal/benami partner in this. Vishnu has already struck a deal with some third party - say Geeth to buy the licence at 10,000 crores. So what happens is that Vishnu pays the government 5000 crores at a false low valuation. He then sells to Geeth at 10,000 crores and makes 5000 crores profit. he pays half of this profit as bribe to Shiva. So Government gets 5000 crores as per a false (questionable valuation). But Government gets money. It just does not get enough because the "valuation" is wrong. In the meantime both Shiva and Vishnu are enjoying their bribe profit of 2500 crores each. Geeth makes up his 10,000 crores from customers.

The government's loss is a "virtual loss" because of issues of valuation. That virtual loss is huge as per CAG. But actually everyone has made money except the people. The government has not made enough and the people lose paise. The real questions may come in seeing how the valuations were done and how the licenses were handed out. But these can be covered up.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 22 Nov 2010 10:30

This is the crux of the issue. the government "could have realised" upto 160,000 crores had the auctioning and valuation been done differently. Since it was a "valuation" versus known cost it will be argued forever. But we do not yet know what else is under the surface.

And that figure is not plucked out of thin air..The 3G spectrum was sold for more than one lakh crores - and 2G is more basic and hence more in demand. The CAG arrived at the figure after considering various factors and IMO the actual figure that could have realised is much more substantial than the what the Bandicoot Raja realised.

In short, the general agreement is that the Govt lost substantial amount of money, and that is not going come from anywhere else, unless they re-auction it afresh.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2010 10:40

Interestingly the DMK which has distributed color TV sets to voters can claim that money made illegally from this scam is being used for the people's benefit. It can be said that if the center had made that money it would be used to fund something in Bihar and allow some Bihari scamster to make money. But because of Raja and 2G scam, Tamil Nadu voters can now get free satellite dishes for their TV sets.

For every loss there is some gain.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 22 Nov 2010 10:54

geeth wrote:How can people say the PM is clean? He is as corrupt as others. Only question is, whether he has taken his share of the loot or not.

MMS and Sonia are corrupt and rotten to core, just as former PM ABV was.

====

CWG bribes = Rs 40000 cr (over seven years)
2G bribes = Rs 50000 cr (in few weeks)
....

Totals are crossing almost 1 lakh crore a year to 2 lakh crores a year. Let me put my answers to the two obvious questions :

1. who is getting this bribe money's lions share?
2. Where are they stashing this money?

The Nbjpr including PM, super-PM, SCjs etc now 100% slaves. There is now way all these slaves can keep so much rupees.

My take is : American Elitemen are collecting all these bribes in cash or kind, and then they are re-investing in India to take control over real estate, mineral mines, media and also Christianize India. The re-investment keeps Indian economy growing. But the control over economy/polity ensures that India's Military and manufacturing remains weak. So whenever American Elitemen want to take over India, US Military can it with ease. The high growth rate ensures that gullible activists keep believing that everything is hunky dory, and no system change is needed. And when US Military knocks door, there will be no time left to improve Military.
If India lets this bribery go on peacefully, India will become like SoKo - no Military, reasonably good economy, Christianity all over and US-puppies in polity. And if India resists, US will Iraq India.

So situation is much worse than what most BRites and non-BRites think. The beneficiaries of bribery are American Elitemen, not local Nbjprie.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Nov 2010 11:02

shiv wrote:Interestingly the DMK which has distributed color TV sets to voters can claim that money made illegally from this scam is being used for the people's benefit. It can be said that if the center had made that money it would be used to fund something in Bihar and allow some Bihari scamster to make money. But because of Raja and 2G scam, Tamil Nadu voters can now get free satellite dishes for their TV sets.

For every loss there is some gain.

The TVs are being distributed out of government money. So it is not as if some Biharis are being deprived, but rather some Tamil Nadu people are going hungry or dying prematurely because the local government is buying votes by running socialist schemes.

Which makes me wonder if all this corruption is merely an outgrowth of socialism. If government was cut back to the bone, it would care about loss through corruption because it would have very limited avenues to get revenue. Today if the government does not raise enough money via the spectrum auction, it can always rob the tribals and sell their land to their favourite corporation. Perhaps one way to attack corruption is to increase federalism (devolve more power to states), and reduce direct government involvement in the economy.