Discussion on Indian Special Forces

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Nov 2010 21:51

Wouldn't the SPG have been a better choice to send than the NSG?

Btw, the Latvian and other SPGs look straight out of a hollywood movie...very TFTA..

compared to the SDREs:

What is the red badge on their right pockets?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Nov 2010 22:05

nothing beats the serb presidential guards in hollywood quotient.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Nov 2010 22:29

The Latvians look like they are taking part in a fashion show.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 07 Nov 2010 22:42

Surya wrote:oh boy

There is no such thing as Special group

just a typo

Indeed.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Nov 2010 23:32

Gaur wrote: 4> There have been rumors of recent dip in SFF disciplinary standards.

I think you are referring to a rumour floated long time back (it might even be mentioned somewhere on B-R in one of the articles) - it was and should be considered just a rumour.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 08 Nov 2010 00:19

Surya wrote:
And mind you, lot of Para officers and Soldiers can take on and clear the SF Probation.......

The SF is looking at a mental toughness - thats the diff in the 3 month para training and the 6 month SF probation

In other words the paras are ending when the SF is only just getting into the middle of the probation.

The ability to keep going for another 3 months with only one sunday in 2 off, hours and hours of training, little sleep, 10 minutes to grab something to eat wears them out.

When I was watching one of the probation group - it was wiry little Sikh Infantry guy who was impressing the CO. I cannot tell you why - but the guy was brilliant in utilizing every minute to advantage for rest, food etc. Its an interesting sight as you watch troops from every regiment in the IA trying out.

This is why Lt gen Nirbhay sharma (retd)- who decided that Para = SF (per interview in FORCE) made (IMO) a huge mistake and this is why the SF needs to have its own regiment.

The paras simply do not understand the SF.

In addition to the fitness part a successful special operator should also have an aptitude for unconventional thinking.After all operating behind the enemy lines(sometimes for extended periods) requires a lot of mental ingenuity and resourcefullness.There are lot of differences with regards to tactics between SF and Infantry.Just because somebody is a very good pehelwan or a marathon runner doesn't mean he is cut out to be a special operator.

That is why I do not think that you should convert whole infantry regiments even if they are Para to SF regiments.Because you cannot switch on the unconventional thinking skills just like that.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 08 Nov 2010 02:55

Para SF using Tavors

The Tavors are being really liked by the SF. Some-time in wide-spread use, its cutting edge he said. As a lot of other things especially with regards to quicker target acquisition being comfortably fired from the hip too. The MARS sight is under some critisism however as its holographic sight is not as fast in CQB environment. The MoD in order to rectify this had taken out an RFI for a accessories upgrade of the Tavors for half-length picatinny rails, vertical grips, IR sights and attached tactical lights. Do not know what happened of it.

As far as the 5.56 vs 7.62 debate, his personal views were that most of the Tavor's being used are the Regular Length 16'' barrel ones. These gave an effective range of 400 mtrs and also minimize the terminal performance issues common with the 5.56 round. Comparable SF weapons he had tried, for example the G36K has an effective range of 300-350 mtrs. It also now allowed the operatives to carry almost double loadout's of magazines at around 10-12 magazines. It also has more 'exotic' options in terms of rounds (like a new long range round) other than the FMJ steel core 5.56mm. For an SF team, the ability to employ heavier amount of firepower is a very crucial factor when engaging/disengaging a much larger adversary as is usually the case. The Tavor allows them to do just that unlike the AK where it's an issue to consistently put out rounds on the target beyond 250 mtrs in sustained fire mode. He had not idea on the 6.8 SPC, so would not comment.

That said, the SF Teams employ a hybrid combo, where in a third of the operators still carry the venerable AK for pure stopping power in CI Ops. Thus, maximizing the effectiveness of the SF Team. Hope this helps!!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 08 Nov 2010 03:50

Again, thanks a lot for providing us with valuable information. But how did your friend get the opportunity to fire G-36K? AFAIK, we have never had joint army exercise with any G-36 equipped force. Did PARA SF once tested G-36 and its variants for evaluation?

Eagerly waiting for your answers regarding this and other previous topics.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 09 Nov 2010 19:57

Gaur wrote:But how did your friend get the opportunity to fire G-36K? AFAIK, we have never had joint army exercise with any G-36 equipped force. Did PARA SF once tested G-36 and its variants for evaluation?

No Idea, But getting hands-on with other weapons isnt that uncommon. You are required to be fairly proficient and have know-how for similar weapon types.

I have no inputs on the AMC Docs training pattern also.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Nov 2010 20:50

^^
I see. Do you have any inputs on the previous questions? Let me list them below so you would not have to search the thread.

I see. I have some level of understanding that Para (non SF) are a cut above the rest. However, I was talking more about overall training than fitness (which is only a part of training). What I mean is...Do Paras (non SF) go through some course which other regiments do not generally have to (other than Para jumps)?
Thanks.

Which PARA battalion is taking part in Yudh Abhyas in Alaska?

5> What is the interoperability level of PARA SF with other SFs like Marcos, SFF and Garud. I know that Marocs take part in CI ops in J&K. Do PARA SF also perform joint operations with them? Also, information about their interaction with other SF would be most welcome.

10> Which helmet do the PARA SF generally use? Patka or the lower protection helmets which other armies seem to prefer (like Israeli OR-201 which also seems to be in use with IA).

12> Joint Indo Russian exercise INDRA 2010 was recently conducted. Did PARA SF take part in it? I ask this because there were some pics of that exercise in which the some IA soldiers were not wearing regular gear.
[ur]http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/ph ... rcise.html[/url]

Now a question for your friend. Did he note any striking difference between PARA SF and US Army SF? I mean, like some standard procedures which both have a unique way of doing,some differences in which both are managed, differences in organization and composition of teams etc. Or any other observations that he might be able to share.

BTW, thanks for being so patient in answering the questions.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Nov 2010 21:07

Saw Navy Special on Headlines Today at 7:30 pm. I am fairly sure that I saw one Marcos operative carrying a shotgun. I was fairly surprised as I have never seen shotgun in use with Indian Armed Forces.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Nov 2010 21:28

Gaur they do

Especially on CI duty in NE

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Nov 2010 21:33

^^
I see. This is news to me.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Nov 2010 21:50

If memory serves me right there was an article from The Week about a CI ops which mentions it

I think BR had the article

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 26 Nov 2010 21:52

Its news for me too. Which shotgun do they use?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Nov 2010 06:54

MARCOS training @ RIL rig. Note the 'mittens' used to repell down the chopper

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Nov 2010 07:02

atreya wrote:Its news for me too. Which shotgun do they use?

Possible to tell from this screengrab?

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2010 08:01

Gaur wrote:Saw Navy Special on Headlines Today at 7:30 pm. I am fairly sure that I saw one Marcos operative carrying a shotgun. I was fairly surprised as I have never seen shotgun in use with Indian Armed Forces.

I completely forgot to post this image of Karnataka police which appeared in the paper and I photographed using a cellphone. Kelik on image for a larger pic

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 Nov 2010 08:28

shotgun can be seen in this video
Link
looks likes Remington 870

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Nov 2010 15:07

Now,now......the pic of MARCOS shows the men with all the gold plated stuff we talk about when whining about Indian SF, but, but...wait...no TFTA gloves onlee....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2010 15:08

Aditya G,
Thanks for the picture. It was excellent. Where did you get that from? Do you have any more pics (other than the one on Aroor's Blog)?
Thanks.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2010 15:10

Shiv Saar,
Thanks. That pic was even more surprising.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Nov 2010 20:49

The one posted by Shiv is definitely an OFB product:

MARCOS one has a short barrel ... natural for SF use. Infact OFB makes the model in two versions, so marcos are using same one as well (guesstimate).

Code: Select all

Length of Barrel 
I. 	Civilian use - 510 mm (20") NPB 
II. 	Military / Police - 478 mm (18") P

Rohit, my comment on the gloves was an observation and not a whine

Gaur, it is a screengrab from the headlines today program.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Nov 2010 22:27

Aditya G,
The video posted at HT website is of unbelievably low quality. Certainly the screenshot is not from that video. Did you record the program yourself? If so, could you please upload it to some free filesharing service like ifile?
Thanks.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 28 Nov 2010 13:45

Nice to see the Three Point Sling finding its place with the SpecOps community in India..Seen pics of Army SF and Garud with the same.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 28 Nov 2010 16:47

MARCOS

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 767299.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 772490.jpg

NOTE the Picatinny Rails on the MP-5s

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 29 Nov 2010 20:45

Aditya G wrote:Infact OFB makes the model in two versions, so marcos are using same one as well (guesstimate).
Code: Select all
Length of Barrel 
I. 	Civilian use - 510 mm (20") NPB 
II. 	Military / Police - 478 mm (18") P

From what I have heard, the civil version is no longer available for sale (and the production has ceased completely). People, please feel free to correct me on this.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Nov 2010 09:27

Yesterday's HT has a obituary for Major Udai Singh ( same person whose blog has been featured on BRF many times) and another jawan for a 2003 operation and has been published by "officers and jawans of Special Group".

Am seeing the mention of Special Group in a newspaper for the first time...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Nov 2010 09:55

^^
Perhaps not SG specifically, but SFF has been mentioned. Here is a famous article on SFF. If you have perchance missed it, then it may interest you.
The curious case of establishment 22

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Nov 2010 10:30

Yup, have seen this too earlier ( where else but on BR!!!) but never had seen SG ever in a newspaper, esp the SG guys themselves mentioning their unit name ...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Nov 2010 10:46

^^
True. Perhaps they are realizing that in the age of internet and mass media, at least the name has become an open secret? Or it could just be an oversight. I don't know.

In any case, thanks for posting the info.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Nov 2010 14:13

^^^The same edition of TOI also had Major Uday Singh obituary on behalf of 1 Para(SF)...his parent regiment.

As for SG - the name has been appearing for quite some time in the media.....generally, one would see 22 SF (Special Group) mentioned in the awards/citation notification.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Nov 2010 20:13

sum wrote:Yup, have seen this too earlier ( where else but on BR!!!) but never had seen SG ever in a newspaper, esp the SG guys themselves mentioning their unit name ...

Actually about 6-8 years back you would see quite a few Special Group obits in ToI.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2010 03:36

delete..Mixing and matching from memory..

Anyways..here is something from old

Now, our investigation reveals many of these warnings were coming from a shadowy covert operations unit called Special Group III, made up of Gujjar residents of the high mountains. This fact invalidates claims that photo-reconnaissance by newly-acquired Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), backed by aviation corps helicopters and equipment such as thermal imagers, were the key to whatever success Operation Sarp Vinash has achieved. All seven of the Army's reports on the Hil Kaka operation either credit Special Group III, managed by the Jammu and Kashmir Police, or its smaller sister organisation, Special Group II. The information, the investigation has found, was at first ignored; it was taken seriously only after the organisation's leader spoke to several top political and military figures in Rajouri, Jammu and New Delhi. Based on their inputs, the 9 Para-Commando Regiment, a crack unit which earned a formidable reputation for counter-terrorist operations when it operated in Kupwara, made a first attempt on Hil Kaka in early January. That attempt, and another timed for January 26, were foiled by heavy snow

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2013/stories/2 ... 300400.htm

Anybody know anything about these Special Groups??!!

Also There was news of Indian Soldiers going to ISrael to form a new unit..anybody remmember anything on that?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Dec 2010 03:52

^^
Is there a possibility that the obviously biased reporter got confused between SG and J&K Police Special Operation Group (SOG)? At least, this seems to be the case considering that the the article cites SG being managed by J&K police.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2010 04:06

its possible but the author refers to SG III specifically in a Joint op with 9 Para and also metions SG II seperately.. and the whole thing of Gujjar residents .. Dont think SOG is limited by local ethnicity

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 01 Dec 2010 04:19

^^
I am only guessing. But there is certainly something wrong with the accuracy of the report. Either the unit is not SFF SG or they are not managed by J&K Police. It has to be one of those.

Regarding the Gujjar part, it could have been either lack of research on the part of ddm or plain miscommunication. This is because "no" unit, not even SG, is made exclusively of only one community. There could be a majority, but not exclusiveness. For instance..I guess that the reporter would have described JAKLI to be "made up of Muslims" simply because they have the majority.

PS: My personal opinion is that this article, which is an obvious smear campaign, should not be publicized.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2010 04:30

PS: My personal opinion is that this article, which is an obvious smear campaign, should not be publicized.

No doubt..i was just curious about the SG part of it thats all.

Btw SF units were to be raised with the Help of the Israelis.. Sent to Israel..anybody have any idea what happened on that front

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2010 04:31

>> Also There was news of Indian Soldiers going to ISrael to form a new unit..anybody remmember anything on that?

when ? NSG or SPG people were trained in israel in its formative years.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2010 07:47

when ? NSG or SPG people were trained in israel in its formative years.

During the time the TAVOR contract was being signed there was news about India sending men to Israel for training.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms. ... d=36279627

Indian special forces to be trained in Israel

AP[ SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 02, 2003 06:55:03 PM ]

NEW DELHI: The Indian army will send thousands of special forces troops to Israel for training to fight militants in Jammu and Kashmir, and the two countries have signed a multimillion-dollar weapons deal, a news report said on Sunday.

An Indian defence ministry delegation will visit Israel next week to discuss anti-insurgency warfare training for its special forces, the Press Trust of India quoted unidentified ministry officials as saying.

India and Israel have also signed a US$30 million agreement to arm special forces with advanced light weapons systems, the news agency said.

Brig. Shrutikant, an Indian army spokesman, gave no immediate comment on the report.

Israel will train about 3,000 selected Indian soldiers in batches.

The army's special forces are trained in desert, mountain and jungle warfare, along with anti-hijacking operations and hostage crises.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story ... t_id=17747

India to send elite commandos to Israel for training

Press Trust Of India

New Delhi, February 2: With Islamabad showing no signs of relenting on infiltration in Jammu and Kashmir, the government has given a go ahead to the raising of four more battalions of special forces, who will be trained in Israel for specialised counter insurgency strikes.

The proposal for raising these new elite commando forces, specially in ‘‘irregular warfare’’, has been cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) and additional funds have been allocated for it, highly placed Army officials said.

This was last year i think

senior Indian Army official said that under the proposed agreement, a select group of Israeli commandos will train Indian troops at different unnamed locations in India, including jungles, mountains and highly populated urban zones. Without divulging specifics, the Army official said the Indian forces will undergo intense close-quarter operations training with the aim of learning how to kill insurgents or terrorists without harming the local population.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3714649