Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by shukla »

Delhi HC slams army''s policy on posting of injured personnel
MSN News
Delhi High Court has slammed as "grossly deficient" the central government''s policy on posting of military personnel who have suffered injuries during the course of duty and asked the Indian Army not to transfer them frequently. The court was hearing a petition filed by one Vinod seeking a direction to the Army not to transfer him from Delhi as he lost his fingers due to frostbite during the course of duty in Siachen. "The existing policy or working of any policy which may be in existence is shown to be grossly deficient in ensuring justice to such personnel", said a division bench of Justice Gita Mittal and J R Midha recently.

"The importance of these issues which are necessary not only for rehabilitation of injured personnel in the service but also essential for ensuring a sense of justice to the personnel serving in the armed forces of the nation", the bench said. "It has been brought to our notice that there are several positions and assignments in the service where such personnel can be effectively and usefully deployed while at the same time ensuring continuity of a posting so that they are not required to shift periodically," the court added.

Pointing to inaction on part of the government despite several observations passed earlier in similar issues, the court asked Atul Nanda, Standing Counsel of the Union of India, to bring it to the notice of the Defence Ministry for proper implementation of the existing policies.Rejecting the government stand that wounded personnel cannot be posted at any particular place beyond a length of time, the court suggested the government consider a policy for inter-corps transfer so that injured personnel can be placed at a post where longer tenures may be possible.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Prima facie, the above seems to be right thing on compassionate grounds....but is fraught with danger and IMO, not advisable.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Kanson »

orbat.com
Second batch of two Indian mountain divisions under raising The first batch of two was for the Northeast; the second division will complete raising in March 2011. The next batch of two is for Ladakh, and we thought they would be raised in 2012-2014, but but it seems raising is already under way, because the divisions have been assigned numbers. We will be unable to give numbers until Mandeep Singh Bajwa, or South Asia correspondent, confirms and says its okay.

We're wondering if Beijing realizes how unnecessary and how stupid its provocations and efforts to intimidate India have been. Previously, India had a true offensive capability against China only in the Sikkim/West Bhutan area. But now India is building a major offensive capability for Ladakh, for Middle Arunachal, and for the extreme Northeast. India is to also add an independent armored brigade and independent infantry brigade to its forces in Ladakh, with the result that from two brigades its capability will increase four-fold.

And these four divisions are only the start. The Indian Army has asked for seven more divisions, of which three are likely to be approved soon, the rest will probably wait till the next round of Chinese provocations.

How has any of this helped China? For years it has gotten by with just two brigades and frontier troops in Tibet; now it will have to respond with a major counter buildup - which of course the Indians have foreseen, which is why the Army has asked for another seven divisions, which will require China to do yet another buildup. The Chinese ego has been boosted by picking on India, but all that China has succeeded in doing is making its position in Tibet very much more difficult.

(India had a total of 11 divisions - one infantry and ten mountain - for deployment against China prior to 1971. This came down to 9 divisions by the 1990s. By 2012-13 it will be up to 12.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Kanson wrote:
We're wondering if Beijing realizes how unnecessary and how stupid its provocations and efforts to intimidate India have been. Previously, India had a true offensive capability against China only in the Sikkim/West Bhutan area.
They have not realised what is the full implications yet.

And these four divisions are only the start. The Indian Army has asked for seven more divisions, of which three are likely to be approved soon, the rest will probably wait till the next round of Chinese provocations.

How has any of this helped China? For years it has gotten by with just two brigades and frontier troops in Tibet; now it will have to respond with a major counter buildup - The Chinese ego has been boosted by picking on India, but all that China has succeeded in doing is making its position in Tibet very much more difficult.
They have foreseen the end of their middle kingdom as it is.
This is the end of PRC occupation of Tibet.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Just one question. Are the new divisions being created from the existing manpower pool of the Army in which case the combat potential may not be enhanced by a great deal. Or they are being raised through additional recruitment?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Hero for the day. Maj Gen SK Razdan, the Indian Army's first paraplegic General officer.

Generally speaking

Image

Wheels of fortune: Razdan is all set to leave for his office / Photo: Arvind Jain

DAWN TO DUSK

S.K. Razdan is the Indian Army’s first paraplegic major general


By Rekha Dixit

It is a nippy November morning. We are in the defence officers’ colony at Dhaula Kuan, Delhi; a verdant locality teeming with peacocks, babblers and sparrows. Sunil Kumar Razdan is expecting us, his front door wide open. The nameboard, however, still says Brigadier S.K. Razdan, although he picked up the rank of major general on October 27. “Hah, these things don’t matter,” he says. “Those who know me know the rank. It doesn’t concern others.”

Razdan may brush off his rank lightly, but his promotion is no trivial matter. He is the Indian Army’s first paraplegic major general.
We step into the drawing-room. There is a walnut wood side-table with chinar leaf patterns. A dragon motif carpet. A wooden rhino with a distinct Assam provenance. Every bric-a-brac a memento of the officer’s assignments, from freezing Demchok in the north to Andaman in the south and the furthest reaches of the northeast.

“October is a significant month for me,” says the Libran. “I was born on October 8, and 40 years later in 1994, at the hour of my birth [10:10 p.m.], I received the paralysing shot.” It was again in October, a year later, that Razdan resumed his military duties.

“Let’s walk back to that day, 16 years ago,” says Razdan. His tale is like an Alistair MacLean plot, full of guts and glory. He was part of a crack team in Kashmir sent to rescue women taken by the Lashkar-e-Toiba as sex slaves. “Women, whatever the situation, have to make noise,” he grins, recounting the squeals and jangles that alerted terrorists to the ‘silent’ rescue operation afoot. Just then, an animated telephone conversation floats from the bedroom, “See, she must be talking to her sister,” he says of his wife, a twinkle in his eye.

Going back to the story, he recounts killing two terrorists. The third fell face up. “I thought he was dead, but he fired,” he says. “The shot went through my abdomen, my intestines spilled out and my spine broke. I knew I would never walk again. Yet, I shot him dead.” Razdan bends his head and clutches at his hair, his face twisted in agony. I think the memory is painful; later, I learn it is a particularly sharp stab of neurotic pain, a result of the damaged neurons.

Razdan refused to be evacuated till the encounter was over, sustaining himself on self-administered intravenous drips. He was later awarded the Kirti Chakra.

The active life of a Parachute Regiment officer, often picked for dangerous and sensitive missions, must be very different from the present one. “But I was trained in an elite force whose work starts when everyone else gives up,” he says. “I am used to challenges.”

Razdan’s day starts early; he does his ablutions without help, then exercises. The self-designed regime includes push-ups, stretches and a session on a self-made pulley-operated gym. In the sunny front yard, Razdan demonstrates his exercises, pulling off his sweatshirt to reveal enviable biceps. At this moment, his wife, Manju, steps out. “Arrey, what are you doing? Are you Salman Khan?” she says, taking in the scene. “Salman Khan, wow, let me have a glimpse, too,” giggles a neighbour from the balcony upstairs. Manju is in a hurry; she has to run several chores. Razdan reluctantly puts back his shirt. “I will take her to the bank and then we will continue,” he says. He wheels himself to the car shed and shifts without assistance from wheelchair to the driver’s seat. “It is important to know driving,” says Manju. “If I could, I wouldn’t be so dependent on him.”

With the couple gone, their son Parth, a medical student, says, “I was three when dad was injured. But he has always been so self-reliant.” Parth is talkative like his father, but his introvert elder sibling Ishaan shares the passion for adventure. He has just been selected to train as fighter pilot with the Air Force. “Together, all they talk is bullets and ballistics. I don’t understand anything,” says Parth.

When the general returns, he has the look of one who can play truant because the lady is away. “Let me cook for you,” he says, heading to the kitchen and rustling up a spicy dish of cabbage cooked with apples. “Actually, my speciality is mutton do pyaaza and roomali roti. Manju is pure vegetarian. But for us men, apart from a charpoy in the four-legged category and a kite among flying objects, everything else is a tasty dish!”

Razdan and Manju make jokes at each other’s expense. “She is a sham cook, only entering the kitchen when there is a party,” he guffaws. But what they don’t articulate in words is obvious everywhere—love. He regards her as his strength, she insists he is the pillar of support. “I quit teaching for two years, I was so broken. But he resumed work in a year, and I, too, picked up my career again,” says Manju.

The general has a demanding career, he often returns by 8:30 p.m. “Fortunately, the Army preferred to see the skills I have instead of the disability,” he says. He is now assistant chief of the Integrated Defence Staff. His speciality is counterinsurgency.

At work, the biggest challenge is to perform like others; he hates sympathy. “I am lucky I have not received help I didn’t want,” he says. The Vishisht Seva Medal he received last year is testimony to his professionalism.

He has given the service a lot, what has he got in return? “See, this is not a give-and-take business transaction,” he says. Yet, he believes the military gives much more than money. “It is a wonderful life, isn’t it?” he says to his mongrel, curled up in a patch of sunshine. The dog looks at him disdainfully before dozing off.

Despite work pressure, Razdan actively pursues several hobbies. “I go to the Rajputana Rifles’ range regularly,” he says. “I can shoot from any position, except sitting on my haunches.” He recently finished Orhan Pamuk’s Snow. “I love Forsyth, Doyle and Puzo—authors who explore workings of the human mind,” he says. Sometimes he sketches; once he even wrote a book on a military topic. “I never bothered getting it published. I think we used the pages for having samosas,” he chuckles.

Razdan is a whiz with gadgets. He once designed a gun that could be fired by the solar-powered battery of a calculator. More practically, he customised his urine bag, from a plastic rum bottle. Yet, he won’t use a mobile phone.

The general doesn’t take lunch. “I have to keep my weight under check,” he says. He dines at 9 p.m., the meal often preceded by a peg of his favourite Scotch whisky. There is no fixed time for calling it a day. “It depends on the pain; sometimes I am asleep by 11 p.m., sometimes I toss till 3 a.m.,” he says. He refuses painkillers, preferring to conquer the pain himself.

The cabbage apple sabzi is ready now; the sahayak serves it to us. It is yummy, but a tad too spicy. I reach for water and he says, “Don’t. Try to overcome the discomfort. After a bit, you will learn to deal with it. That is the way to approach every irritant in life, minor or major.” A lesson I humbly take back with me.
Dont miss what a simple life they have. He even drives his wife to the bank.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Wow,

He is to my inadequate memory the second handicaped officer to have reached such a rank. The first was an officer who had lost his leg in a land mine expolosion. Am not remembering his name at the moment.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Hiten »

^^^
Lt. Gen Pankaj Joshi
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Pratyush wrote:Just one question. Are the new divisions being created from the existing manpower pool of the Army in which case the combat potential may not be enhanced by a great deal. Or they are being raised through additional recruitment?
Pratyush - any new raising will consist of men and material drawn from other formations.

For example, the IA may withdraw a battalion each from three existing brigades of multiple divisions to raise the first Infantry Brigade of a new Infantry Division. Similarly, the men who form the Division and Brigade HQ plus the support troops. In due course of time, additional battalions will be raised for the net increment of the troop level and equipment purchased to make-up for additional requirement.

In case of infantry, additional battalions will be raised in some of the Regiments - the process may well be already underway. When these battalions within the Regiment are raised - for example the Dogra Regiment has 18 battalions at present - this number will go up if the Dogra Regiment, in addition to others, has been chosen for increase in strength. So, you may see 19th Battalion of the Dogra Regiment being raised. This battalion will initially draw seasoned officers and men (especially, JCOs and Senior NCOs) from other battalions in the Dogra Regiment. The vacancies which become vacant in existing battalions will be filled in due course of time.

So, while there will be immediate drop in net strength of some of the formations, it will be made up in due course of time.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Kanson wrote:orbat.com
Second batch of two Indian mountain divisions under raising The first batch of two was for the Northeast; the second division will complete raising in March 2011. The next batch of two is for Ladakh, and we thought they would be raised in 2012-2014, but but it seems raising is already under way, because the divisions have been assigned numbers. We will be unable to give numbers until Mandeep Singh Bajwa, or South Asia correspondent, confirms and says its okay.

We're wondering if Beijing realizes how unnecessary and how stupid its provocations and efforts to intimidate India have been. Previously, India had a true offensive capability against China only in the Sikkim/West Bhutan area. But now India is building a major offensive capability for Ladakh, for Middle Arunachal, and for the extreme Northeast. India is to also add an independent armored brigade and independent infantry brigade to its forces in Ladakh, with the result that from two brigades its capability will increase four-fold.

And these four divisions are only the start. The Indian Army has asked for seven more divisions, of which three are likely to be approved soon, the rest will probably wait till the next round of Chinese provocations.

How has any of this helped China? For years it has gotten by with just two brigades and frontier troops in Tibet; now it will have to respond with a major counter buildup - which of course the Indians have foreseen, which is why the Army has asked for another seven divisions, which will require China to do yet another buildup. The Chinese ego has been boosted by picking on India, but all that China has succeeded in doing is making its position in Tibet very much more difficult.

(India had a total of 11 divisions - one infantry and ten mountain - for deployment against China prior to 1971. This came down to 9 divisions by the 1990s. By 2012-13 it will be up to 12.
A short analysis of the development -

(a) With the raising of two additional divisions under the Northern Command, not only does the IA addresses the imbalance on the Tibetan front, it also raises many options for itself on the Pakistan front - especially, the Northern Areas.

(b) These two new divisions will be most likely Northern Command Reserves - that is, formations for offensive roles. So, the much whined about desire to take Northern Areas (or parts thereof) on BRF - can be implemented -with forces present in the theater....and this is where it gets interesting.

(c) Not only does it mean that PA cannot thin out troops from this area for other regions, it may have to positively beef up the sector. Which means, lesser flexibility for PA - which has been its strength due to better lines of lateral communication. For, Northern Command can deploy these forces for offensive tasks across the entire length of the LOC.

(d) And the AHQ might not need to pump in troops from other sectors into Northern Command (like the dual tasked divisions from NE) - more flexibility for AHQ in terms of deploying troops for offensive actions.

(e) As no news about raising of new Corps HQ has been announced so far, it seems that these two new divisions will be with existing Corps HQ. My guess is, one each with 15 and 14 Corps. Northern Command can easily switch forces from China or Northern Areas to the other - depending on the situation.

(f) The new Independent Mountain Brigade will put more troops on ground in holding role and add to the present force levels represented by lone brigade of 3 Division (the other brigade of the division is in reserve).

(g) Plus, the (I) Armor Brigade for Ladakh gives tremendous fire power to the IA. It seems that the strategy for Ladakh Sector is to emulate the PLA - keep minimum forces on the LAC itself - but keep the iron fist ready for any eventuality.

(h) In due course of time, in addition to the above capability - I expect another Mountain Strike Corps HQ with two additional Divisions to come up.

(i) Plus, another Corps HQ for Southern Section of Ladakh and Himachal-Tibet Border with complimentary troops.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

My whine is that, we are not equipped to operate inside Tibet.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

chackojoseph wrote:My whine is that, we are not equipped to operate inside Tibet.
CJ, can you expand the statement, please? As in, what are the objectives that you envisage and how we lack?

Thanx.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

rohitvats wrote:CJ, can you expand the statement, please? As in, what are the objectives that you envisage and how we lack?

Thanx.
Rohit, we are geared to fight on the border. We do not have mobility to operate inside Tibet. In future, any border war will have to escalate to grabbing as much territory into Tibet and create a liberated / buffer zone. Even the Vikas regiment is not for area control. Its for area denial.

The next round of negotiations (if at all) after the border war should begin for Tibetian areas with the one step forward and two steps backward chinese policy. The status Quo should not be allowed as being experienced now. We should push them back from the high areas and to lower areas or at least plains in Tibet. We should not want them in proximity with mc mohan line.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

A short analysis of the development -

(a) With the raising of two additional divisions under the Northern Command, not only does the IA addresses the imbalance on the Tibetan front, it also raises many options for itself on the Pakistan front - especially, the Northern Areas.
Rohit, we are geared to fight on the border. We do not have mobility to operate inside Tibet. In future, any border war will have to escalate to grabbing as much territory into Tibet and create a liberated / buffer zone.
Rohit: Thanks for the analysis. Its always enlightening to read your viewpoint on orbat matters.

My views are as follows, and I would request you to pls comment:

1) I actually tend to agree with CJ on this, and believe that the response thus far has been more defensive rather than offensive. Actually, its quite sensible on IA's behalf. IA response is typically a 4 step graduated response from (1) pure defensive to (2) defensive with offensive element to (3) offensive with major defensive elements in most theatres to (4) offensive with large area holding capability. My sense is that with respect to Pakistan, we are in stage 3 and trying to move to stage 4, but with China, we are in between stage 1 and 2.

2) With the new China specific raisings, the aim appears to be to first plug the existing gaps in the line. Hence, the 2 divisions for the NE, which really are gap fillers for earlier divisions that used to be there. Similarly, the 2 new divisions for Ladakh will really fill the gap and capability deficit in Central and South Ladakh, especially South Ladakh. Yes, it will provide us a ready reserve to delpoy aagainst Paki NA is required, but the focus appears to be to plug the existing gap.

3) The next three divisions that the IA is seeking will probably be deployed for : HP-Tibet border, Utttarakhand -Tibet Border and one division for Central Command reserve - AOR being Eastern-Central Nepal and left flank of 33 Corps' AOR.

4) Once the above 7 divisions are in place, then we can start focusing on true strike/offensive capabilities through 2 mountain strike corps. Hence, 4 more divisions for these two strike corps. By the time the above 7 divisions are in place, IA would have had time to study the Chinese response, and then the IA can decide on the deployment zones for the mountain strike corps, and this deployment area is quite significant for mountain warfare because lateral movement across our China borders will remain restricted simply because lateral movement across mountain theatres is very difficult compared to theatre movements in plains. So, IA over the next 3-4 years would have enough time to study PLA's moves to counter IAs current moves and will then deploy their strike assets accordingly. Our own road links should be up by then.

So, while I agree with you that the two latest divs for Northern Command will offer us flex across North Comm's AoR against China and NA, I think we are still a few years away from true mountain strike corps capability.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by aditya.agd »

I just read this in Wikipedia. It seems that IA did not capture all the territories back from Pakistan. We must highlight this to media. In India all the open discussions are throttled by Politicians and artificial pacifists....

"Withdrawal and final battles

Following the outbreak of armed fighting, Pakistan sought American help in de-escalating the conflict. Bruce Riedel, aide to then President Bill Clinton reported that the US intelligence had imaged Pakistani movements of nuclear weapons to forward deployments for fear of the Kargil hostilities escalating into a wider conflict between the two countries. However, President Clinton refused to intervene until Pakistan had removed all forces from the Indian side of the Line of Control.[58] Following the Washington accord on July 4, where Sharif agreed to withdraw Pakistani troops, most of the fighting came to a gradual halt, but some Pakistani forces remained in positions on the Indian side of the LOC. In addition, the United Jihad Council (an umbrella for extremist groups) rejected Pakistan's plan for a climb-down, instead deciding to fight on.[59]

The Indian army launched its final attacks in the last week of July; as soon as the Drass subsector had been cleared of Pakistani forces, the fighting ceased on July 26. The day has since been marked as Kargil Vijay Diwas (Kargil Victory Day) in India. By the end of the war, India had resumed control of all territory south and east of the Line of Control, as was established in July 1972 as per the Simla Agreement.

However it had failed to occupy strategic peak Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge and Dalu Nag.[60] Point 5353 is the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil; it remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.
[61]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Avik, good to hear from you. My comments on your post:
Avik wrote:
<SNIP>

1) I actually tend to agree with CJ on this, and believe that the response thus far has been more defensive rather than offensive. Actually, its quite sensible on IA's behalf. IA response is typically a 4 step graduated response from (1) pure defensive to (2) defensive with offensive element to (3) offensive with major defensive elements in most theatres to (4) offensive with large area holding capability. My sense is that with respect to Pakistan, we are in stage 3 and trying to move to stage 4, but with China, we are in between stage 1 and 2.
Generally, true. But not applicable always. Like the Orbat.Com article mentions, IA has had strike/offensive capability in Sikkim for quite some time as well as in Tawang (though not mentioned in the article).

Also, the move (and definition) from (1) to (2) is not applicable to all the locations on LAC and Sino-India border. As I mentioned in my write-up, with respect to Ladakh, the aim it seems is to have forces in reserve with the minimum required foot-print on the ground. After all, what PLA forces are we facing in Ladakh? PLA Border troops and some main PLA Infantry. Unlike Kashmir LOC, I don't need to match the opposition for each of his soldier (and where, we'd move from (2) to limited (3)).

There is no threat in being - in case of shooting match, PLA will have to bring the whole set of forces from outside - and IA is preparing for the same by raising forces within the theater. So, not only do I have dedicated troops in the theater, I can augment the same with formations from outside. So, in place of starting from zero, 14 Corps starts from 1 and other formations come in as required. This is biggest difference between India-Pak and Sino-India equation. Just because the 4 Corps is not termed "strike" does not mean they will not be used in offensive - PLA will have to first match each and every IA formation on LAC and then think of Offense.
2) With the new China specific raisings, the aim appears to be to first plug the existing gaps in the line. Hence, the 2 divisions for the NE, which really are gap fillers for earlier divisions that used to be there. Similarly, the 2 new divisions for Ladakh will really fill the gap and capability deficit in Central and South Ladakh, especially South Ladakh. Yes, it will provide us a ready reserve to delpoy aagainst Paki NA is required, but the focus appears to be to plug the existing gap.
Like I said earlier - it takes two to tango. The gap in Indian defense on LAC is also gap on Chinese side in Tibet. It is not as if PLA is sitting in those areas...if PLA is going to be on the offensive, then even assuming 1:3 ratio of defender to attacker, what is force level required by PLA? Does it have that force level?

I'm not saying that we don't need additional troops - all I'm saying is that let us not automatically assume that a division is required for "defensive" purpose everywhere. Why are we automatically on defensive?

Two divisions raised for Northern Command, IMO, will end up as reserves for offensive actions against the Chinese or the TSPA. In case of shooting match with PLA, we can have additional formations from the plains. Like I said, these formations, even those with 14 Corps, might not be on the LAC itself. Those might well continue to be manned by Brigade worth of troops and ITBP. With additional (I) Mountain Brigade and (I) Armored Brigade, the ability of PLA to make mischief reduces.

As for NE, true - the existing structure is being balanced out. Only thing missing in short term is the Mountain Strike Corps.

3) The next three divisions that the IA is seeking will probably be deployed for : HP-Tibet border, Utttarakhand -Tibet Border and one division for Central Command reserve - AOR being Eastern-Central Nepal and left flank of 33 Corps' AOR.
I don't see it happening this way. I'm again repeating - IMO, IA will not deploy troops in eyeball to eyeball confrontation with the PLA. It will keep bulk of troops in reserve - and move them against TSPA as and when required. For example, the 6 Mountain Division is AHQ Reserve and triple tasked for UP-Tibet/Kashmir/Ladakh - as may be the situation. While the additional (I) Mountain Brigade for UP-Tibet border will add to existing Brigade, the IA may well be happy to keep 6 MD in reserve. Similary, in case of HP-Tibet Border, IA may well deploy Brigade worth of troops up-front+ITBP for patrolling and 'feet-on-ground'.

Formations dedicated to certain sectors on LAC will not only allow IA to take defensive positions but offer strong offensive potential as well.
4) Once the above 7 divisions are in place, then we can start focusing on true strike/offensive capabilities through 2 mountain strike corps. Hence, 4 more divisions for these two strike corps. By the time the above 7 divisions are in place, IA would have had time to study the Chinese response, and then the IA can decide on the deployment zones for the mountain strike corps, and this deployment area is quite significant for mountain warfare because lateral movement across our China borders will remain restricted simply because lateral movement across mountain theatres is very difficult compared to theatre movements in plains. So, IA over the next 3-4 years would have enough time to study PLA's moves to counter IAs current moves and will then deploy their strike assets accordingly. Our own road links should be up by then.
MSC is a different development alltogether conceptually. For example, tomorrow IA may decide to make 14 Corps responsible only for Siachen to Souther Ladakh LAC and add two more divisions in addition to 3 Mountain Division (with 8 MD going to 15 Corps)....Now, 14 Corps can manage the feet-on-the ground function with two brigade worth of the troops...let us assume that 3 Div moves south and takes care of Central and Southern Ladakh sector with (I) Mountain Brigade responsible for DBO and Chang Chenmo complex. With (I) Armored Brigade and two additional divisions (suitably equipped), 14 Corps is more than capable to take on and deter PLA from any misadventure.

Once, the MSC comes as an entity to Northern Command, suddenly PLA will find itself in a tight spot - it better bring in the best Group Armies from Coastal MDs to the battle.
So, while I agree with you that the two latest divs for Northern Command will offer us flex across North Comm's AoR against China and NA, I think we are still a few years away from true mountain strike corps capability
True - but like I said, I don't expect IA response to PLA and latest developments to be linear.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

rohit, you are pinning this analysis on the assumption that PLA doesn't have too many ready forces in tibet. in my cursory search I could get the names of only two brigades, the 52nd and 53rd mtn bde, PLA.

however, tibet is covered by 2 military region with 4 group armies(corps equivalent) in all with no other threat to cater for. what is to say that haven't amassed troops in the border districts already ? I don't recall reading anything covering PLA deployment in tibet. IA might know the situation but do we ?

we can take this to the china mil thread if you want.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Rahul M wrote:rohit, you are pinning this analysis on the assumption that PLA doesn't have too many ready forces in tibet. in my cursory search I could get the names of only two brigades, the 52nd and 53rd mtn bde, PLA.

however, tibet is covered by 2 military region with 4 group armies(corps equivalent) in all with no other threat to cater for. what is to say that haven't amassed troops in the border districts already ? I don't recall reading anything covering PLA deployment in tibet. IA might know the situation but do we ?

we can take this to the china mil thread if you want.
Not true, Rahul. All I'm saying is that unlike TSPA and Indo-Pak border, there is no threat in being. For example, like you pointed out, there are supposed to be two PLA Mountain Brigades in Tiber plus there are four Group Armies in the MR. Now, are these four GAs and 2 MDs ( 12 Divisions+brigades) automatically supposed to be on offensive? Even if they are - what ratio is required of us on defensive? AFAIK, and these are not the gold plated stuff PLA has. That is all I'm saying.

As for reports, I've not heard of PLA moving these troops to border - like India-Pakistan on LOC. So, like the Chinese themselves, we'll maintain troops in the theater (though far more localized and dedicated and top-quality equipped than the Chinese).

My ideal orbat for Ladakh is:

(a) 14 Corps - Siachen, Partappur Sector, Northern and Central Ladakh: new (I) Mountain Brigade, 102(I) brigade, brigade equivalent of Ladakh Scouts plus two Infantry Divisions.

(b) 17 Corps (new) - Southern Ladakh with independent command for HP-Tibet border: 2 RAPIDS[with 3xInfantry+1xArmored Brigade] plus the (I) Armored Brigade. (I) Mountain Brigade for HP-Tibet plus division for this sector on stand-by.

(c) 18 Mountain Strike Corps - Northern Command Reserve: 2xInfantry Division with add-on armor brigade each and integral air-assualt.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

Thanks Rohit. Now, continuing,
After all, what PLA forces are we facing in Ladakh? PLA Border troops and some main PLA Infantry. Unlike Kashmir LOC, I don't need to match the opposition for each of his soldier (and where, we'd move from (2) to limited (3)).
PLA is not exactly on the LAC, but they do have a considerable force in being. The Xinjiang MD has about 4 PLA divs with 2 of them being armoured/mechanized. I think these would be the deployed against South and Central Ladakh prior to the deployment of PLA troops from Gansu MR etc.
So, not only do I have dedicated troops in the theater, I can augment the same with formations from outside. So, in place of starting from zero, 14 Corps starts from 1 and other formations come in as required.
In case of shooting match with PLA, we can have additional formations from the plains.
My main problem with the assumption of bringing in troops from outside stems from the fact that the valley conditions are very different from the Ladakh environment. Frankly, unless, its 8 MD being moved, I dont think movement of any other 15 Corps formation to 14 Corps AoR will require any less acclimatisation that troops being moved from the plains.
The thing is we have a two-fold possibility here:
(1) Deploy both new divs north of Zoji La and then, both divs become available for action either, against China or Paki NA. But the downside is the current supply chain being able to support the logistics for this upsurge.
(2) Deploy one div in 15 Corps AoR with the other one going to 14 Corps. In such a case, I am not too sanguine against any significant move of formations from 15 to 14 Corps. Further, I think we can take it for granted that if the Chinese are heating up the LAC, their chamchas on the LoC will do their bit to tie down forces in 15 and 16 Corps AoR. In any case, the Pir Panjal can absorb troops like a sponge. In this scenario, overall, we have a largely defensive capability in 14 Corps AoR.
I don't see it happening this way. I'm again repeating - IMO, IA will not deploy troops in eyeball to eyeball confrontation with the PLA. It will keep bulk of troops in reserve - and move them against TSPA as and when required. For example, the 6 Mountain Division is AHQ Reserve and triple tasked for UP-Tibet/Kashmir/Ladakh - as may be the situation. While the additional (I) Mountain Brigade for UP-Tibet border will add to existing Brigade, the IA may well be happy to keep 6 MD in reserve. Similary, in case of HP-Tibet Border, IA may well deploy Brigade worth of troops up-front+ITBP for patrolling and 'feet-on-ground'.
The reason I made the comment earlier was the assumption that the two bdes in Uttarakhand and HP will be supplemented by additional bdes to turn them into full fledged divs. I actually tend to think that , one bde from each of these divs will be fwd delpoyed while the other two will provide a limited offensive capability, for both the UK and HP sectors. Once this happens, 6 MD will be clubbed with another div to form the first MSC. The reason I say this is because 6 MD has deployment/battle expereince across both LoC and LAC and is also, like you mentioned, AHQ's rapid deployment reserve. So, it will be able to lend all that experience to the first MSC HQ.
MSC is a different development alltogether conceptually. For example, tomorrow IA may decide to make 14 Corps responsible only for Siachen to Souther Ladakh LAC and add two more divisions in addition to 3 Mountain Division (with 8 MD going to 15 Corps)....Now, 14 Corps can manage the feet-on-the ground function with two brigade worth of the troops...let us assume that 3 Div moves south and takes care of Central and Southern Ladakh sector with (I) Mountain Brigade responsible for DBO and Chang Chenmo complex. With (I) Armored Brigade and two additional divisions (suitably equipped), 14 Corps is more than capable to take on and deter PLA from any misadventure.
This is a possibility. And I would like to analyse this further, in terms of how soon, 14 Corps is split into two Corps with one holding the ground, while the other is a strike formation.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Avik »

My ideal orbat for Ladakh is:

(a) 14 Corps - Siachen, Partappur Sector, Northern and Central Ladakh: new (I) Mountain Brigade, 102(I) brigade, brigade equivalent of Ladakh Scouts plus two Infantry Divisions.

(b) 17 Corps (new) - Southern Ladakh with independent command for HP-Tibet border: 2 RAPIDS[with 3xInfantry+1xArmored Brigade] plus the (I) Armored Brigade. (I) Mountain Brigade for HP-Tibet plus division for this sector on stand-by.

(c) 18 Mountain Strike Corps - Northern Command Reserve: 2xInfantry Division with add-on armor brigade each and integral air-assualt.
Agree that this would be the ideal force structure against the Chinese, but the logistics links are currently just not there to support this volume of forces. To support this, we require atleast 2X 2-3 laned , 24 hr, all weather, black topped roads and 2 X 10,000 feet airstrips. Frankly, I think we are quite some years away from being able to support this orbat.

BTW , what would be the KLP for 18 MSC and its constituent units?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by vic »

Rohit

A beautiful post and more importantly a very good post because it gives a positive feel, great vibe and we can do it attitude. I am tired of hackneyed defensive defeatist posts in relation to China, as if China is going to come tomorrow and occupy India till Mumbai.

Tibet is a great barrier for Indian forces to foray deep in China but then it is an equal barrier to China also. Why do all our analysts, ignore that Chinese supply lines are going to be way stretched and Indian SF will not be sleeping.

On a secondary note, Do Indian forces practice scenarios of loosing major arterial roads to air/SF strikes and or Chicken area getting blocked. My feeling (right or wrong) is that if something like this happens then the brass may lose their collective cool as in 1962. Is it possible to comment for you, on this issue?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Not true, Rahul. All I'm saying is that unlike TSPA and Indo-Pak border, there is no threat in being. For example, like you pointed out, there are supposed to be two PLA Mountain Brigades in Tiber plus there are four Group Armies in the MR. Now, are these four GAs and 2 MDs ( 12 Divisions+brigades) automatically supposed to be on offensive? Even if they are - what ratio is required of us on defensive? AFAIK, and these are not the gold plated stuff PLA has. That is all I'm saying.
is it 4 GA + 2 Mtn Bde ? the mtn bde's are part of the GA's AFAIK. the GA 's are roughly equivalent to a corps in IA structure.

info on PLA forces, especially in tibet is very hard to get if you don't know chinese.
wiki says about lanzhou MR
The International Institute for Strategic Studies attributes the Region with an estimated 220,000 personnel, a single armoured division, two motorised infantry divisions, one artillery division, one armoured, two motorised infantry, one artillery, one anti-aircraft brigades plus a single anti-tank regiment. However, due to on-going reorganisation and reductions virtually all figures for numbers of Chinese military formations should be taken as indicative only.
.......
12th Armoured Division ('84701 Unit') at Jiuquan, Gansu. The region also includes the Xinjiang Military District, unusual among PRC military districts in that it contains a significant number of combat troops (the 4th Infantry Division, 6th Infantry Division, 8th Infantry Division, and, apparently, the 11th Highland Motorised Infantry Division reportedly either at Urumqi or in the Karakoram Mountains
and about chengdu MR
The International Institute for Strategic Studies attributes the region with some 180,000 personnel, with four motorised infantry divisions, one artillery division, two armoured brigades, one artillery brigade, and two anti-aircraft brigades.
I agree that these numbers are only indicative, and many units have been downsized * but that is still a lot of troops in an area with no major threat other than us.
Now, are these four GAs and 2 MDs ( 12 Divisions+brigades) automatically supposed to be on offensive?
I'm not saying that. but we don't know where they are do we ? the GA HQ's might be far in the interior but the formations might be in the border districts. how do we (we as in folks here, not IA) analyse the situation without considering how the PLA is deployed ?
* f.e some divisions have been converted to combined arms bde's and the PLA commanders seemed to have found it difficult to manage these formations.

to both Avik and Rohit, if you have PLA orbat in and around tibet please share.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Austin »

What ever happened to the Armored Car competition for 4 wheel Light Armoured Vehical ( MLV ) , any news on who has won the deal ?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

I do this very often and know lots of others who do the same. This guy is right, once bitten the bug never really leaves you.
You can leave the military, but it never really leaves you


By Ken Burger, The Charleston Post and Courier

Thurs, March 4, 2010

Occasionally, I venture back out to the air base where I'm greeted by an imposing security guard who looks carefully at my identification card, hands it back and says, "Have a good day, tech sergeant."

Every time I go back onto Charleston Air Force Base it feels good to be called by my previous rank, but odd to be in civilian clothes, walking among the servicemen and servicewomen going about their duties as I once did, years ago.

The military is a comfort zone for anyone who has ever worn the uniform. It's a place where you know the rules and know they are enforced -- a place where everybody is busy but not too busy to take care of business.

Because there exists behind the gates of every military facility an institutional understanding of respect, order, uniformity, accountability and dedication that becomes part of your marrow and never, ever leaves you.

Personally, I miss the fact that you always knew where you stood in the military, and who you were dealing with.
That's because you could read somebody's uniform from 20 feet away and know the score.

Service personnel wear their careers on their sleeves, so to speak. When you approach each other, you can read their name tag, examine their rank and, if they are in dress uniform, read their ribbons and know where they've served.

I miss all those little things you take for granted when you're in the ranks, like breaking starch on a set of fatigues fresh from the laundry and standing in a perfectly straight line military formation that looks like a mirror as it stretches to the endless horizon.

I miss the sight of troops marching in the early morning mist, the sound of boot heels thumping in unison on the tarmac, the bark of sergeants and the sing-song answers from the squads as they pass by in review.

To romanticize military service is to be far removed from its reality, because it's very serious business -- especially in times of war.
But I miss the salutes I'd throw at officers and the crisp returns as we crisscrossed on the flight line.

I miss the smell of jet fuel hanging heavily on the night air and the sound of engines roaring down runways and disappearing into the clouds.
I even miss the hurry-up-and-wait mentality that enlisted men gripe about constantly, a masterful invention that bonded people more than they'll ever know or admit.

I miss people taking off their hats when they enter a building, speaking directly and clearly to others and never showing disrespect for rank, race, religion or gender.

Mostly I miss being a small cog in a machine so complex it constantly circumnavigates the Earth and so simple it feeds everyone on time, three times a day, on the ground, in the air or at sea.

Mostly, I don't know anyone who has served who regrets it, and doesn't feel a sense of pride when they pass through those gates and re-enter the world they left behind with their youth.

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010 ... er-really/
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

A very nice, human, article. Thanks for posting.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

They have been presenting this upgrade for a long time IIRC last 5 years at least.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

are these instructors going to be drill and PT instructors or lecturers?
the latter would make more sense
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

It says Captain level instructors - basically, the Direscting Staff (DS)...AFAIK, drill and PT ustaad are senior NCOs and JCOs.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

Lalmohan wrote:are these instructors going to be drill and PT instructors or lecturers?
This would be as lecturers (as rohitvats already pointed out), and so mostly would be from the officer ranks of IA. Drills etc. would be certainly be in the domain of British NCOs (Academy Sergeant Major and his pals), as the weapons, the ceremonials and the drills etc. is different from the one currently followed by IA. Language barriers also would be a problem (for Indian NCOs and JCOs).
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

thats exactly my point (sorry i wrote it in a hurry), teh DDM is off at a tangent as usual
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

A sad commentary on our times.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/300056/Smal ... f-NDA.html
Smallest batch of 180 passes out of NDA
November 30, 2010 11:11:37 PM

Parwinder Sandhu | Pune

The smallest batch passed out of the National Defence Academy (NDA), Khadakwasla, since its conception, with a total of 180 cadets crossing the ‘Antim Pag’.

The passing out parade of the 119th course — which included two foreign cadets, one each from Tazakhistan and Afghanistan — was reviewed by Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal PV Naik. Other dignitaries included Commanders-in-Chief of Southern Command, Pune, Western Naval Command, Mumbai and South Western Air Command, Gandhi Nagar.

The event also witnessed a spectacular flypast by Sukhoi fighter jets of the Indian Air Force and a formation of four Super Dimonas aircraft of the Air Force Training Team based at the academy. A Sukhoi aircraft piloted by Wing Commander Sajjan gave a spectacular solo aerobatic display in addition to the IAF Sarang Helicopter Aerobatic Team.

The Air Chief reminded cadets that while they were well on the way to becoming members of the elite fraternity of the armed forces, it was by no means a guarantee to a life of ease and comfort.

“The physical toughness, mental agility and professional competence that you have imbibed in NDA and will build on at your respective service academies, will hold you in good stead. Whether you are in a bunker in the snowy reaches of the Himalayas, on the bridge of a ship in the Indian Ocean, or in the cockpit of a fighter jet, danger and loneliness will never be far from you,” he said.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »


So they are saying they can make 45 cal length barrels. Have they done a few for proof of concept and tested them or is this an offer to go figure it out?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

chetak wrote:A sad commentary on our times.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/300056/Smal ... f-NDA.html
Smallest batch of 180 passes out of NDA
November 30, 2010 11:11:37 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but this article that ive reproduced below says that 315 cadets of the 118 course passed out in May of this year. Why is there another batch passing out in Nov?

http://www.sakaaltimes.com/SakaalTimesB ... 748947.htm
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

my memories are foggy but IIRC a friend of mine was delayed by about 6 months for a physical course he had to repeat. something like that ?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

Thats what I also thought. Or is there a twice a year intake into the academy?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

Intake is indeed twice a year.

http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/inner.aspx ... id=51&id=1

Also, as Rahul M said, some cadets have to repeat one or more semesters. This is generally due to injury..though poor performance can sometimes be the cause too.
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