PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 19 Nov 2010 02:08

Viv S wrote:[

Hi there Sancho I was wondering if I'd see you around. - Vnomad

With regard to your post,

Exactly which sensor does the Rafale field, that the EF/SH/MiG-35 don't? The IRST, TV guidance, MAWS, LWR, TRD are all featured on the EF. And the DASS does provide 360° protection. Also, the PIRATE can be used for passive kills just like the SPECTRA.

Also, with regard to the Rafale's RWR range being twice that of EF, what are we taking as a benchmark? A ground or AWACS based pulse doppler may up at a very long range while an fighter sized AESA may not show up until its close to visual range. Until we've got all the figures at hand I don't think we can make any conclusions based on open sources figures without any clarification from the original source.

Hi, good to see you again!

It's not only the sensors, its the capability of the EWS itself, because it is not used in defensiv only, but can be used in offensive too. EF at the moment does not have comparable capabilities and DASS/Pretorian can't be used to guide weapons (PIRATE = FSO, DASS = SPECTRA, so in this case the EWS is the important system that makes use of the IRST).
The F18SH will get most of the features that Rafale offers only after the Block 3 upgrade, like integrated IRST, speherical MAWS, latest cockpit design...however, this discussion might fit better in the MMRCA thread I guess. I just pointed out that the Rafale, or better SPECTRA offers even now capabilities that are comparable to those in F35 and that we need such capabilities for FGFA too, to make it really capable.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Nov 2010 02:53

Sancho wrote:It's not only the sensors, its the capability of the EWS itself, because it is not used in defensiv only, but can be used in offensive too. EF at the moment does not have comparable capabilities and DASS/Pretorian can't be used to guide weapons (PIRATE = FSO, DASS = SPECTRA, so in this case the EWS is the important system that makes use of the IRST).
The F18SH will get most of the features that Rafale offers only after the Block 3 upgrade, like integrated IRST, speherical MAWS, latest cockpit design...however, this discussion might fit better in the MMRCA thread I guess. I just pointed out that the Rafale, or better SPECTRA offers even now capabilities that are comparable to those in F35 and that we need such capabilities for FGFA too, to make it really capable.

Reply posted on MRCA thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1080

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Nov 2010 09:45

CM,

I was wrong about the inlets of the PAKFA. I had thought that there was a significant S curve only in the vertical plane. That would shield the upper semicircle of the compressor blades. However, what about the lower part of the compressor blades. Notice the below picture carefully.

The upper part of the intake seems to bend down. The same happens with the lower surface till it reaches its lowest points near about the auxiliary air intakes. The dip in the lower surface is higher than the top surface. I think this is to increase the volume of the nacelle at this point. Notice that landing gear housing is thickest (houses the wheel) at this point. So I am sure the designers have kept the inside cross sectional area for the air constant. From the side, the intake would look more like this.

I had not thought about how much lateral space the landing gear was going to take. this picture

makes it clear that atleast the outer lower quarter of the compressor is well covered by the landing gear housing. On the other hand, notice that inside lip of the air intake curves outward which will also cover part of the inside lower quarter of the compressor blades. Whether it will completely cover it, I couldn't decipher that much.

However going back to the first picture, notice the strake like thing on the inside of the inner wall of the intake. Wonder if that covers, part of the compressor blades which are not guarded by the bend of the inside of the intake + the end at the lip. Obviously it works as a strake too. But I wonder whether it serves a dual purpose.

I remember a frontal picture of the PakFA where the compressor blades were visible. After researching a bit I read that it was most probably a PS job (with people even pinpointing the exact picture from where the insides of the intake was pasted onto the PakFA pic. Even the markings on the compressor blades matched between the source and the PS pic of the PAKFA) Going by what I see in the pics I have posted above, I firmly believe in the photoshop theory now.

P.S. Mods, I have purposefully kept the pictures in the post inspite of them being big (already shared) as it would help describe the aspects better and reader doesn't have to keep changing windows. Please change to links if you find that more suitable.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Nov 2010 09:51

^^ Thats one theory but like all other things highly speculative , this S curve etc are hotly debated on various fora but no body knows for sure what is the solution in place to deal with direct engine blade exposure or if at all there is any thing on the first prototype.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Nov 2010 10:12

Guys,

WRT, the S shaped intake and the turbine blade exposure. One theory to find out just how much of the turbine face is exposed. Would it not be a simple and straight forward excercise to look into the Intake with a flash light and see what section of the turbine blade is visible.

I know that this is right out of my musharraf. But is every one is comming up with a theory why not me.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Nov 2010 10:26

Designers won't need a torchlight. They would have the whole thing in CAD. so they can see for sure what the intake will look like.

But they won't let us see those CAD diagrams or shine our torch light ... so you have to go through these roundabout ways.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Nov 2010 10:44

Pratyush wrote:Would it not be a simple and straight forward excercise to look into the Intake with a flash light and see what section of the turbine blade is visible.

Possible if powered by Eveready batteries , sorry couldn't resist

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Nov 2010 10:49

Pratyush's idea actually is not that silly, we see all those fancy pics of the Raptor/JSF every now and then and despite that there is no single pic on the www which lets one peek into the engine manifold of these aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Nov 2010 11:01

not even from static airshow lineups?

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Nov 2010 11:07

GD I am no longer as active on aviation forums as before, but afaik I have not come across any such pictures for the Raptor or JSF in fact their nozzles too are covered during static displays. Remember I had asked Purushwa to take one such pic of JSF , but he too returned empty handed.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Nov 2010 11:16

This one is on the ground but looks like the mesh is up in front in the intakes .

GD san, you'll love that thread!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Nov 2010 14:20

^^ No they have blocked those intake or its a smart PS job , they dont want us to see what they do not want show.

F-22 really has a huge vertical stabilizer , the small all moving VS on PAK-FA is a welcome relief

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Nov 2010 17:00

May be the russkies did a "radar black hole"!

. There could be deflection from the angle of the first cold compressor blade design - 3d woven composite matrix materials as well.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Nov 2010 17:45

Russia, India 'likely' to sign 5G fighter contract in December
RIA

Russia and India are highly likely to sign a fifth-generation fighter design contract in December, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Thursday. Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet. India confirmed that it had finalized a draft contract at a meeting with Russia in early October.

"If all procedures are completed by the time of our president's visit [to India] in December, the contract will be ready for signing," Ivanov said. The new aircraft will be based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made several test flights, and is expected to enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2015.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2010 15:00

Russia's second 5G-fighter to fly before yearend

Flight trials of the second prototype of Sukhoi's fifth-generation fighter aircraft are due before the end of the year, Sukhoi holding CEO Mikhail Pogosyan said on Monday.

The first prototype of the fighter, codenamed T-50, made a maiden flight in late January and has conducted 40 in total, Pogosyan told journalists in Russia's Far East.

"The flight trial program is moving ahead faster than we expected," Pogosyan said.

He said talks with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on the joint development of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft are due to conclude before the end of the year.

Earlier reports said an agreement would be signed in December.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Nov 2010 02:02

I don't know if this has been posted here before.

It is an article from 2007. But all the things written is this article are facts of today (including the almost the right shape of PakFA)

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/ ... detail.asp

Russian 5th Generation Tidbits

Commenting on Russia’s 5th generation fighter plans, one Russian source affirmed that a first flight for their new generation fighter would take place in 2009. Other Russian sources were less optimistic, noting the 5th generation fighter might fly by 2012. Russian Premier Ivanov recently noted the first flight would occur in 2010. This fighter would combine 5th generation levels of advance in terms of stealth, supercruise and advanced electronic systems, to include a new active phased array radar system. While responding to unique Russian requirements, this source asserted the new 5th Generation fighter would be “better than the F-35” and close to competitive with the F-22. Such a distinction flows more from Russia’s unique requirements for its 5th generation fighter which does not include a requirement to match or exceed the F-22 in all aspects. This source also suggested that there would be a naval carrier version of this new aircraft. Fully aware of the Russian government’s gathering commitment to build a new fleet of up to six nuclear powered aircraft carriers, this source noted, “if there is a new ship there should be a new aircraft.” This source noted that existing Russian naval aircraft designs like the Su-27KUB would not be the design to meet future Russian naval combat aircraft requirements.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2010 07:16

roy says it has already made 40 flights!

The PV2 version going to take to sky soon.

Indian FGFA to fly by 2017.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Nov 2010 09:49

^^^ Na na sir ... this is an article from 2007.

Of course we know better now. Was just posting it as a read (hopefully good

)

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 24 Nov 2010 18:24

shukla wrote:Russia, India 'likely' to sign 5G fighter contract in December
RIA

Russia and India are highly likely to sign a fifth-generation fighter design contract in December, Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Thursday. Russia's Sukhoi holding and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) agreed in early 2010 to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter jet. India confirmed that it had finalized a draft contract at a meeting with Russia in early October.

"If all procedures are completed by the time of our president's visit [to India] in December, the contract will be ready for signing," Ivanov said. The new aircraft will be based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made several test flights, and is expected to enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2015.

2015? Really?

Assuming that's true (doubt it, honestly), what timeline for the FGFA and beyond? 2 more years for the FGFA? And another 2 for a naval FGFA?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2010 18:28

I don't doubt the pak-fa entering Russian forces by 2015. Why do you think so? Remember this is not LCA project that we started off from scratch basis. They have an established setup, and now got a shot in the arm after we pumped money into it.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Nov 2010 05:46

SaiK wrote:I don't doubt the pak-fa entering Russian forces by 2015. Why do you think so? Remember this is not LCA project that we started off from scratch basis. They have an established setup, and now got a shot in the arm after we pumped money into it.

Russians have a different way of developing and inducting new aircrafts compared to the Western-methodology. 2015/17 date is probably just for inducting a "very-limited" LSP-IOC version. Case in point is to look at the MKI development and induction with the IAF. It would probably take at least until 2025 for the PAK-FA to be fully build to its full-specs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Nov 2010 22:50

Russia will not abandon its own project fifth-generation fighter

Russia will concurrently conduct their own projects to build fifth-generation fighter and a similar machine, the designed in conjunction with India, said on Thursday Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov.

"We do not keep their project going. We will go forward in parallel," - "Ivanov told reporters.

He said that Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi in December, plans to sign a contract with the Government of India in designing fifth-generation aircraft to be produced for the BBC the two countries.

Moreover, Russia continues to test its own similar machines, said Deputy Prime Minister.

At the beginning of November a new domestic military aircraft have carried out 36 missions.During the tests, practiced the basic parts of the machine and the parameters of the engine, said Ivanov.

"So far no major complaints there," - he said.

Ivanov also confirmed that before the end of this year, the air must rise to the second flying prototype for this project.

Russia and India agreed on joint development and construction of fifth generation fighter aircraft, which first flew in January of this year. It is assumed that they would create two versions of this combat vehicle - single and double. Framework contract to build fifth-generation fighter has been signed earlier. Costs to be split roughly equally.Russia and India plan to create a fifth-generation fighter to the 2015-2016 year (T-50 Russian version of the aircraft). It is assumed that a new generation of fighter aircraft to be delivered to the Russian troops in 2015 (single version), and by 2020 will appear in the Indian Air Force.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Nov 2010 13:53

What does Ivanov mean by, "We do not keep their project going. We will go forward in parallel". That the PAk FA and the AMCA are diffrent project and that the Russians will have nothing to do with the AMCA.

Is my reading correct?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Nov 2010 13:59

Dont bother trying to interpret it. Its translated version and sometimes the english gets screwed up

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Nov 2010 14:23

^^^ Well what Ivanov said was Russia will continue with PAK-FA development as it joins India in parallel to develop FGFA.

Probably FGFA may turn out to be a different fighter in size/weight class ?

After reading Paralay work on FGFA http://paralay.com/fgfa.html and HAL Chairman statement some time back given to force , it seems FGFA will be slightly different fighter in a light weight/class with different wings.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Nov 2010 15:30

I got a response from flateric who is more knowledgeable on PAK-FA development , this is what he has to say

it will be two-seater, in Russia FGFA got designation PMI (Persektivny Mnogotcelevoy Istrebitel = Advanced Multifunctional Fighter)

if T-50 can be compared to T-10, and serial PAK FA to T-10S/Su-27, FGFA/PMI will be new T-10PMK/Su-30

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 Nov 2010 15:48

Pratyush wrote:What does Ivanov mean by, "We do not keep their project going. We will go forward in parallel". That the PAk FA and the AMCA are diffrent project and that the Russians will have nothing to do with the AMCA.

Is my reading correct?

Better translation.. This is what he likely meant

"I think that very soon, in December, we will sign a contract," Ivanov said. He added that Russia would not neglect its project for building a fifth generation fighter. The work on both projects will proceed in parallel, said Ivanov.

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm ... &PageNum=0

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 28 Nov 2010 14:52

Why exactly are they in big trouble? And how does this prove that the a/c does not have curvature from inlet to engine compressor face?

Obvious it proves nothing. I just meant that if those drawings are real (they probably aren't) russia still has a lot of work cut out for it. Hopefully, some sort of curvature is there to shield the engine compressor face b/c a radar blocker can only do so much.
Anyone know if there is going to be structural changes in the second flying prototype? Hopefully something is in the works for a new stealthier IRST.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 29 Nov 2010 14:15

Russian requirements and Indian requirements are different for PAK-FA. Indian requirements call for a two seater aircraft while the Russian requirements call for a single seater aircraft. Though the Russians will operate a very few double seater aircraft and Indians will also operate a very few single seater aircraft, predominantly Russians will operate the single-seater version of the aircraft while India will predominantly operate the twin-seater version.

PAK-FA is a 5th generation Heavy aircraft meant to compete with F-22 in capability and if fesable even surpass it in certain aspects.
AMCA is going to be a 5th generation Medium aircraft. Meant to fill the slot between SU-30MKI/PAK-FA and the LCA.
I dont know if AMCA and PAK/FA will have a naval version capable of operating out of aircraft carriers.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 29 Nov 2010 18:18

Indian Government Comments on Indo-Russian FGFA (PAKFA) Programme

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 29 Nov 2010 18:51

india has signed a deal for 200 double seater & 50 single seater 5g's

so does that mean we can start getting our single seater versions from 2017-2018 while the double seater will be on testing phase ???

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Nov 2010 02:41

hmmm what happened to the joint development part??

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Nov 2010 05:25

Craig Alpert wrote:hmmm what happened to the joint development part??

Joint dev of FGFA. Confusion seems to be WRT the "single seater". Which Russia is developing. So it looks like that Russia will develop/build the PAK-FA single seater, India will buy 50 of them. Then Indo_Russia will develop the FGFA, and, India will build them (with some help from Russia I would assume).

Recall that Brazil was supposed to pitch in too and they backed out. The PAK-FA that is flying around was funded by Sukhoi.

Which is why I feel that the Russian MoD/DM has to, on a regular basis, say that Russia will not back out. Honestly my feel is that Russia cannot fund the 100s pf PAK-FA they seek. They cannot even fund a proper engine or anything else. Looking back they were hoping to rope in a few nations to provide funds and it did not quite materialize the way they wanted. The 50 single seaters that India is supposed to get - I think - is an arm twist frankly.

?????????

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Nov 2010 05:41

Well if this report is anything to go by then one would say all is well

NEW DELHI, November 29 (Itar-Tass) -- Indian Minister of External Affairs Somanahalli Mallaiah Krishna confirmed his country’s intention to expand military-technical cooperation with Russia.

...........

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the two countries had reiterated their readiness to implement the agreements reached by the inter-governmental commissions on military, trade, economic, scientific, technical and cultural cooperation.

“We are discussing the implementation of projects in various sectors, including the creation of a fifth generation fighter plane,” Lavrov said.

Russia and India may sign an agreement on the conceptual design of the fifth generation fighter plane in December of this year, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) President Alexei Fyodorov said earlier.

“We hope to sign [it] in December,” Fyodorov said.

Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) said that an agreement with India on the fifth generation fighter plane would be signed shortly.

“The reconciliation process is underway now,” FSMTC First Deputy Director Alexander Fomin said.

“We hope to sign the agreement shortly,” he said, referring to the end of 2010.

Fyodorov said it was unlikely to be signed outside Russia or India.

In March 2010, Sukhoi head Mikhail Pogosyan said the “the signing of the agreement is a matter of several months.

“We are in the process of negotiation right now. It will be completed shortly, and we will sign a contract on the sketch of the plane,” Pogosyan said back then, adding that such big projects took long time.

Fomin confirmed earlier that India and Russia would need at least 6-10 years to build a fifth generation fighter plane.

“It takes some time to create a plane. The manufacture of such a sophisticated piece of equipment is a science-consuming process that requires big investments. At least six to ten years will pass before we build a sample of the fifth generation fighter plane and being its serial production,” Fomin said.

In the future, Russia and India plan to sell these planes not only on the national markets, but also in third countries. “We will export it in cooperation with Indian partners,” the official added.

He said Russia and India were moving towards signing the first contract for the front-end engineering design of the new fighter plane. “We are close to signing a contract for the front-end engineering design,” he said, adding, “This is just the beginning.”

At the same time, he noted that “we have passed a long and important stage of bureaucratic work: Our Indian partners and we are open to practical tasks under the project.”

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation will work on the new fighter plane.

According to India media reports, the two parties will invest 8-10 billion U.S. dollars in the project. Experts believe that the new plane will exceed Western analogues by the cost-efficiency criterion and will not only enhance the defence capabilities of the Russian and Indian navies, but will also take a worthy place on the world market.

...........

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Nov 2010 07:29

front-end engineering!?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Nov 2010 07:55

As in design.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 02 Dec 2010 18:54

Feast your eyes on this:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1301 ... ontaje.jpg

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Dec 2010 19:09

this was posted before ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Dec 2010 19:11

India-Russia to ink biggest defence deal ever

According to an agreement signed in October 2007, India joined Russia in Sukhoi's FGFA programme, and the two countries will complete all procedures, finalising a commercial contract for the aircraft deal during Medvedev's visit starting December 21. Apart from developing the FGFA, the two countries will also develop the Multirole Transport Aircraft together, of which the India is expected to order 45 for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

According to IAF officials, the 30-tonne advanced FGFA, priced around $100 million, will have very advanced avionics, stealth to increase survivability and enhanced lethality. Expected to enter service in 2017, the FGFA's developing cost will be shared between India and Russia. The Indian side so far has put in $250 million.

The fighter's first prototype has already made as many as 36 test flights and the second prototype is expected to be flying soon. It is expected to take 8-10 years before entering the testing phase. During this period India will be responsible for developing software for on-board computer systems, aircraft self-defence systems, and a host of other important components.

While India is developing its own two seater version of the FGFA, Russia's version is single seater jet. The IAF alone plans to acquire around 300 of the combat jets and the option to acquire more has been kept open.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Dec 2010 19:13

tejas wrote:Feast your eyes on this:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1301 ... ontaje.jpg

Nice...but already posted near the time when PAK-FA first took flight. There was also another version with red sunset background...very TFTA. Same PAK-FA picture was used for that too..it was just tilted in other direction. If you like this picture..it may be worth your time to look for that one too.