LCA News and Discussions

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 29 Nov 2010 14:37

Kailash wrote:Completely agree. But how soon can IAF give a green flag? and how soon can HAL ramp up the rate of production hence?

No idea. Only HAL & IAF can tell us that.

The only concern is IAF might come back saying "its too little too late, let me wait for LCA Mk2 (when I increase the MRCA number from 126 to 226)"

IAF may do many things in the future. But we cannot predict that. So, how can we blame IAF for something it has not even done?

What we do know for certain is that IAF has ordered X mk1s which will be produced at Y production rate. Regarding that, I feel that IAF has taken not only the best, but also the only feasible route available. Ordering 100-200 mk1s at 40 units per anum would have been a madness beyond belief.

LCA is not only important for IAF but for Indian Aviation Industry. So, we cannot just gamble with it based on some "percieved" short term benefits.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 29 Nov 2010 15:19

I dont think IAF will buy more than 40 Mk1 that they have ordered , since they are not happy with 404 performance and would like to move to 414 which is Tejas Mk2 , this is what P Rajkumar has said

Lack of engine power leads to lack of performance. The main shortcoming would probably be in manoeuvring flight and the ability to take off with the required load from runways in hot and high conditions. There will be increase in time to climb to height and it won’t accelerate as fast. So the Indian Air Force (IAF) in its wisdom has said that they are not happy with the performance of the LCA with its current engine. One of the points mentioned is that the sustained turn rate has been lower than specified. One must understand that the performance parameters laid down in the Air Staff Requirement (ASR) have been arrived after a lot of debate in Air Headquarters. I don’t understand the argument of reducing the payload to meet performance. The IAF requires a certain level of performance to be delivered for the payload that is being asked for. Engine power is important and having arrived at the conclusion that thrust on the current GE-404 engine is insufficient,

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 29 Nov 2010 15:34

^^
Perhaps they will not order more mk1s. Perhaps they will. What I am saying is that it is too early so say either way. Till now, their decision to acquire 20 +20 mk1s at a low rate makes a lot off sense.
So, now let them first test out 40mk1s and sort out various issues. After that, IMO it will all depend upon when mk2 will achieve IOC. Some sources state 2014 while others state 2018-2020. So, all this gets very confusing.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby prabhug » 29 Nov 2010 15:51

Thanks to the Senior BR for the Video -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX4W-goLSIo

sometimes we have to show it as well

Cheers

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 29 Nov 2010 18:40

vic wrote:
Kanson wrote:>>IIRC HAL set the 8 per year initial speed, right?! It is not Kamra which is getting CKDs to assemble!

Yes, so far from the available information, initial speed is 8 per year followed by 12. It is the IAF who sets the agenda. So if IAF started feeling the LCA, as they ordered more Akash after intial 2 Sqds, there is a chance of getting more orders and so the speed of realizing those orders by HAL.



Subramanium from ADA has already stated that they want order/s for 60 LCA Mark-1s. I think IAF is doing an Arjun on LCA Mark-1 without even having a T-90 up its sleeve. In any case first batch of 20 SPs were ordered way back in March 2006 and thereafter IAF has still not placed foraml order for second batch of LCAs and is negotiating/read foot dragging.


http://www.frontline.in/fl2517/stories/ ... 704400.htm
Take for example, aeronautics. We are into a programme for the LCA. What started off as one project has become three: LCA for the Indian Air Force [IAF] and the Navy and a trainer version of the LCA. This trainer will be far superior to the Hawk, with the kind of advanced features that it will have, especially in avionics….

Naturally, when we draw a road map, we see the fructification of these three taking us to a medium combat aircraft, a multi-role combat aircraft with fifth generation technologies, where there can be commonality of parts with LCA in avionics or radar, and eventually, 15 years from now, building an unmanned aerial combat vehicle [UACV].
Range of vehicles

So, if one looks at just this spectrum of vehicles, five in number, I see a good potential to build all together, about 1,000 aircraft, over a period of time. The LCA could be 400 in number for the IAF, 100 for the Navy; the trainer could be 150; the medium combat aircraft 250; and 100-150 for the UACVs.


Let us see what happens. The current order is only tip of the iceberg.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 29 Nov 2010 19:57

Kanson wrote:-----
http://www.frontline.in/fl2517/stories/ ... 704400.htm
So, if one looks at just this spectrum of vehicles, five in number, I see a good potential to build all together, about 1,000 aircraft, over a period of time. The LCA could be 400 in number for the IAF, 100 for the Navy; the trainer could be 150; the medium combat aircraft 250; and 100-150 for the UACVs.


Let us see what happens. The current order is only tip of the iceberg.

Yes Kanson, you can say that, and I can say that, and everyone on this forum can say that it is only the tip of the iceberg. But we need the IAF to say that, and they don't. I've only been a blind optimist since KH2001 first flew. Others have been holding the faith for much longer than that, others with real contributions.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 29 Nov 2010 21:56

I guess the more pertinent question is the LCA better than the Mig-27(which are on the fast track to retirement) and the Jaguar( say it takes about 10 mil $(figure pulled out of my musharraf) to re-engine and and other upgrades, why not simply buy a much more capable aircraft for 20 mil$).

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 29 Nov 2010 22:46

PratikDas wrote: Yes Kanson, you can say that, and I can say that, and everyone on this forum can say that it is only the tip of the iceberg. But we need the IAF to say that, and they don't. I've only been a blind optimist since KH2001 first flew. Others have been holding the faith for much longer than that, others with real contributions.


Hi...initially i thought of writing long paragraph on how my optimism is not blinded even though i have criticized IAF brass several times over LCA. But then, it is not the time to look back but look forward. Thing is IAF team is yet to 'taste' the LCA. Based upon that assessment by IAF, combat profile of LCA will be decided and then suitable role can be allotted. I think, the misunderstanding if any is in this part. But considering that they ordered 20 based on progress made in 2006 and another 20 on further judgment of the programme lately(2008?), the total order stands as of now at 40. When is the first flight test of Mk2? Dec 2014 When is the date for Mk2 entering production? Dec 2016. BTW LCA Mk1 production end and Mk2 start, there is one and half year to 2 year gap. This is where P.S. said, he preferred the order to be of atleast 60, another 20 in the gap . Based upon the way they ordered over years(as explained), one can see that there is possibility of filling that gap. When one can expect IAF to do that? It could be after IOC gets over or after their assessment by IAF team. I think this the gist of matter. I'm not here to predict IAF behaviour. I can only hope based upon LCA success which will eventually comes throu, we can expect more orders.

Just like you i had kept much hope on Arjun induction in numbers. But the difference between Arjun and LCA is, over the years, the expected order apart from the base 124 which was rumoured for Ajrun declined over years. At present we are at 124 + 124. Lets see.

From P.S. Interview...

What is the update on the LCA Naval version?
The ‘Power On’ for the Navy version has to take place where we test all the functions; this will be followed by four to six weeks of exhaustive testing. If we are able to demonstrate the naval variant at the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) in Goa, then the navy may consider orders for the Mk-1 variant of Tejas itself, to fill the gap for light fighters to operate off its careers :eek: . We also expect the navy to order around 2 squadrons of the Mk-2 variant.
In addition to 40 existing order, we can expect more from Navy if we are successful.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 29 Nov 2010 22:57

to add to what kanson says, IAF's treatment of LCA could not have been more different from army's attitude to arjun.

they have regular audits and inputs, presided over by a AVM, top brass has come out in support of going indigenous and there has been no critical comments from IAF.

and all we can crib about is, 'they are not ordering today' :(( . big deal !
right now they don't know if Mk2 will be ready for production when current order for Mk1 is completed. they would wait to see how Mk2 project goes and order accordingly. perfectly understandable approach.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 29 Nov 2010 23:34

The LCA is a significant improvement over the Mig-21 of which around 450 were in service some years back. After the bison upgrade, 125 bisons and 225 or so bis were in service. Shouldn't that number (375) be the LCA MK1s first target? MK2 should target the replacement of the 150 (approx) Mig 27s, 150 (approx) Jags, 50 M2ks i.e. 350 a/c/. Additionally 100-150 NLCAs could/should be ordered. And there would be a lot of trainers for both the IAF and the IN. Therefore a production run of 1,000 of all types (without any export) could be possible.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 30 Nov 2010 10:52

Rahul M wrote:and all we can crib about is, 'they are not ordering today' :(( . big deal !

Sorry Rahul, you have misunderstood. Throwing rona dhona accusations around is easy. I didn't ask for an order. I asked for the promise of a substantial order. There is none. Where do you think the fear that the Gripen, if chosen, could kill the LCA program comes from? There is no visible commitment from the IAF to the LCA program apart from the token orders so far.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby narayana » 30 Nov 2010 10:57

Vivek K wrote:The LCA is a significant improvement over the Mig-21 of which around 450 were in service some years back. After the bison upgrade, 125 bisons and 225 or so bis were in service. Shouldn't that number (375) be the LCA MK1s first target? MK2 should target the replacement of the 150 (approx) Mig 27s, 150 (approx) Jags, 50 M2ks i.e. 350 a/c/. Additionally 100-150 NLCAs could/should be ordered. And there would be a lot of trainers for both the IAF and the IN. Therefore a production run of 1,000 of all types (without any export) could be possible.


Numbers will increase after IAF is comfortable with AC's capabilities may be after FOC,LCA has reached Point of no return,so dont worry

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2010 11:39

To add to that if IAF was not interested in the platform it wouldn't have asked for a speedy selection of the engines ... The Tejas program lingering on and on would have been in IAF's interest if it didn't want the Tejas, isn't it?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2010 11:54

I doubt that the IN would want 100 LCA-Ns,because the aircraft is too small for the extended role that carrier aircraft have to perform.A mix of single (LCA-N) and twin-engined fighters might allow a few more aircraft to be carried aboard our future carriers,but with the planned induction of 4+ PLAN large sized carriers ,which are large enough to operate SU-33 sized aircraft,with the Chinese developing their own version if Russia refuses to sell it to them,the LCA-N will be outperformed by larger more capable fighters apart from land based Flankers,etc..If we are acquiring 48+ AESA equipped TVC MIG-29Ks as the spearhead of the fleet air arm,then initially one sqd. of LCA-Ns would be ideal to validate its performance at sea which would be aboard IAC-1.The aircraft would also have to have the new 414 engine.Two sqds. of aircraft would keep HAL's LCA production line quite busy along with IAF orders.If IAC-2 is going to be a still larger carrier,then in all probability larger moire capable stealth aircraft would be required.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 30 Nov 2010 12:04

yummy :mrgreen:

Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/11/29/awx_11_29_2010_p0-272592.xml&headline=Tejas%20Ready%20For%20Sea%20Trials%20In%20Goa

India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready to undergo another round of crucial sea trials in Goa.

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank. The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa. Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.

“The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,” a source said. “We will also test the radar warning receiver.”

................

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 30 Nov 2010 12:22

So that puts to rest all speculation about radar and all

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 30 Nov 2010 12:34

Sid wrote:yummy :mrgreen:

Tejas Ready For Sea Trials In Goa

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=india&id=news/awx/2010/11/29/awx_11_29_2010_p0-272592.xml&headline=Tejas%20Ready%20For%20Sea%20Trials%20In%20Goa

India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready to undergo another round of crucial sea trials in Goa.

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank. The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa. Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.

“The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,” a source said. “We will also test the radar warning receiver.”

................


Am not clear of the signifance of the news article. The IAF version would have accomplished all the above by now. Then why repeat the prosess for the Navy. The test if any IMO needs to concentrate on the STOBAR capability of the aircraft. It Has already undergone all the other tests mentioned above.

Alternatively,

This makes sense onlee if it is a user trial by the Navy. If that is the case. Then I will offer burfees the weight of LCA. Like the ones offered by Admiral Koshee a long time ago :P

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 30 Nov 2010 12:46

^^
I do not think that the trials are for Navy. The article says "sea" trials not "Naval" Trials.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nrshah » 30 Nov 2010 12:55

From the link:
“Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage.”

Tejas also can carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.


Gurus can use fuel data to extrapolate the range of tejas in various combat profile

Also, looks derby is confirmed BRV weapon on Tejas or are these trials for Navy(as it is speculated Naval version have derby)

Added later: The Internal fuel is 2400 liters and not 3000 liters (2500)kg as we are using to get take off weight a few posts ago
Last edited by nrshah on 30 Nov 2010 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 30 Nov 2010 13:25

Then no mithai for you :P

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 30 Nov 2010 13:49

Very good summary of what LCA did and can do as Mk1

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank.

The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa.

Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.

“The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,” a source said. “We will also test the radar warning receiver.”

In addition to firing a Russian-made R-73 air-to-air missile, the pilots are scheduled to test the safe drop tank separation from the aircraft.

“We have done all the ground-based tests. We are planning four-five drops at various speeds, altitudes and angles of attack,” a source said. “Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage.”

Tejas also can carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.

“We have fired an R-73 missile in October 2007 against a zero target. It is important to see the safe separation of the missile,” the source said. Plume separation studies, which involve interaction with a missile’s exhaust, also will be carried out during the trials.

Various Tejas platforms have performed 1,481 flights, clocking about 878 hr. Tejas also has achieved Mach 1.6 at 15 km. altitude and a calibrated air speed of 1,350 kph.

Tejas is scheduled to complete its pre-initial operational clearance requirements by Dec. 27.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 30 Nov 2010 14:40

indranilroy wrote:To add to that if IAF was not interested in the platform it wouldn't have asked for a speedy selection of the engines ... The Tejas program lingering on and on would have been in IAF's interest if it didn't want the Tejas, isn't it?

Yes Indranil, good point. I just wish it wasn't such a mysterious Eid ka chaand affair. It goes without saying that the LCA must thrive, and in numbers. For an organisation such as the IAF that must surely understand what it takes to motivate and to preserve morale of those within, they haven't learnt the art of dangling the carrot rather only wielding the stick.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2010 16:05

Wow! Wealth of information here.

RKumar wrote:Very good summary of what LCA did and can do as Mk1

Sources tell AVIATION WEEK that this time the testing will involve the firing of a missile and the jettisoning of a drop tank.

The trials are set to take place this week at Naval Air Station Hansa, Dabolim, in Goa.

Tejas successfully completed earlier sea trials in September as part of its Out of Station Flight Test Plan.

Pilots from the Bengaluru-based National Flight Test Center will perform the weapon trials this time.

“The density of air and humidity is very high in Goa. This time during the sea-level trials we are evaluating the radar, helmet-mounted systems and instrument landing systems,” a source said. “We will also test the radar warning receiver.”

In addition to firing a Russian-made R-73 air-to-air missile, the pilots are scheduled to test the safe drop tank separation from the aircraft.

“We have done all the ground-based tests. We are planning four-five drops at various speeds, altitudes and angles of attack,” a source said. “Tejas can carry 5,000 liters of fuel, including 1,200 each in drop tanks [and] 2,400 in wings and fuselage.”

Tejas also can carry two outboard R-73 missiles and two mid-board beyond visual range (BVR) Derby missiles from Israel.

“We have fired an R-73 missile in October 2007 against a zero target. It is important to see the safe separation of the missile,” the source said. Plume separation studies, which involve interaction with a missile’s exhaust, also will be carried out during the trials.

Various Tejas platforms have performed 1,481 flights, clocking about 878 hr. Tejas also has achieved Mach 1.6 at 15 km. altitude and a calibrated air speed of 1,350 kph.

Tejas is scheduled to complete its pre-initial operational clearance requirements by Dec. 27.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Nov 2010 17:01

Good. Interesting to know how they would test RWR.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 30 Nov 2010 17:09

Tejas LSP-4 Fires R-73 Missile Again

This flight test demonstrated the following important requirements of the user:
a) Safe separation of the missile from the test aircraft.
b) No Missile plume effect on the engine operation
c) Avionics and Weapon system functionality and safety interlocks
d) Aircraft Handling quality assessment during missile release
e) Effect of missile plume on the composite structure.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 30 Nov 2010 18:01

Livefist:Tejas LSP-4 Fires R-73 Missile Again
Continuing from Austin's post:
More firings of the missile are planned during the current week leading to CCM firing envelope clearance for the Tejas.
Excellent!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Suppiah » 30 Nov 2010 18:09

A measure of their confidence, even the chase plane was a Tejas..congrats team...btw why waste a missile, why not mis-fire it at some Paki outpost?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 30 Nov 2010 18:13

Hi...initially i thought of writing long paragraph on how my optimism is not blinded even though i have criticized IAF brass several times over LCA. But then, it is not the time to look back but look forward. Thing is IAF team is yet to 'taste' the LCA. Based upon that assessment by IAF, combat profile of LCA will be decided and then suitable role can be allotted. I think, the misunderstanding if any is in this part. But considering that they ordered 20 based on progress made in 2006 and another 20 on further judgment of the programme lately(2008?), (has the second order been formally signed??) the total order stands as of now at 40. When is the first flight test of Mk2? Dec 2014 When is the date for Mk2 entering production? Dec 2016. (If Mark-2 starts production if everything goes well as per you, then the first Mark-2 LSP will roll out in 2018?? & perhaps SPs in 2020??) BTW LCA Mk1 production end and Mk2 start, there is one and half year to 2 year gap. This is where P.S. said, he preferred the order to be of atleast 60, another 20 in the gap . (The gap will be better filed by producing 12 LCA mark-1 per month till 2020) Based upon the way they ordered over years(as explained), one can see that there is possibility of filling that gap. When one can expect IAF to do that? It could be after IOC gets over or after their assessment by IAF team. I think this the gist of matter. I'm not here to predict IAF behaviour. (thats the problem, IAF silence clearly shows that they are not interested in aggressively pushing LCA )I can only hope based upon LCA success which will eventually comes throu, we can expect more orders.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 30 Nov 2010 18:53

>>If Mark-2 starts production if everything goes well as per you, then the first Mark-2 LSP will roll out in 2018?? & perhaps SPs in 2020??

early 2017.

>>The gap will be better filed by producing 12 LCA mark-1 per month till 2020

If Mk2 starts coming by 2017 (as planned) why to extend the run till 2020? It is fine if there is customer willing to take Mk1 and if it has a separate production line.

>>thats the problem, IAF silence clearly shows that they are not interested in aggressively pushing LCA.

You know i already criticized several times, including Barbora stand on LCA right in this thread as not putting much meat behind his words. Given the situation, i think, let give them the LCA in IOC standard. Once we achieve this success, no one is going to sit quite. There will be lot of pressure on IAF to do more. I'm sure considering the situation IAF currently in, there will be more orders.

>>has the second order been formally signed??

Def. Min. confirmed the second order, afaik. Plus Mk1 can get addl. order from Navy in addition to the Mk2 ~40 nos.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Nov 2010 19:01

the 'minimum outcome' is to learn from the industrialisation and operationalisation of the Tejas to stand us in good stead for the FGFA and AMCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby David Siegel » 30 Nov 2010 19:52

Not sure if this is most recent test-firing video. The chase aircraft is not a LCA in this case.
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-video-tejas-successfully-test-fires-r-73-missiles/20101130.htm

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Nihat » 30 Nov 2010 19:54

Tejas LSP-4 Fires R-73 Missile Again

DRDO Statement: As a run up to the impending achieving of IOC and release to service, a Tejas detachment has been operating from INS Hansa in Goa, conducting the last phase of flight trials. One of the main objectives of the current phase of flight trials was clearing the firing envelope of air to air close combat missile from the Tejas. The R-73 missile, which is the chosen air to air close combat missile for the Tejas. The missile is integrated with the on-board Digital Stores Management System (SMS) and Open Architecture Mission and Display Computer. The missile selection is performed from the high resolution Multi Function Display (MFD) pages integrated with the state of the art on-board avionics. All of this equipment form the IOC standard of Avionics.

The test firing was done from the Tejas LSP-4 aircraft, piloted by Gp Capt. George Thomas, Group Director (Flight Test Operations) of the National Flight Test Centre, ADA. The test aircraft was accompanied by a chase Tejas piloted by Gp Capt Suneet Krishna. This critical test was closely monitored and controlled by the Test Director Wg Cdr Toffeen, supported by the safety pilot, Gp Capt (Retd) RR Tyagi, from the mobile telemetry positioned at the test location. The data and video from the test aircraft were also available at the base station in Bangalore through a dedicated fibre optic link set up for this purpose.

This flight test demonstrated the following important requirements of the user:
a) Safe separation of the missile from the test aircraft.
b) No Missile plume effect on the engine operation
c) Avionics and Weapon system functionality and safety interlocks
d) Aircraft Handling quality assessment during missile release
e) Effect of missile plume on the composite structure.

More firings of the missile are planned during the current week leading to CCM firing envelope clearance for the Tejas. The composite team of ADA, HAL, NAL and ADE designers is involved in the planning of the subsequent firing tests. The aircraft are being supported outstation by a composite HAL and IAF team with DGAQA and CEMILAC personnel. The result of this critical test has added yet another feather on the cap of ‘Team Tejas’ and the entire team is looking forward to the successful completion of the balance tasks.

Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2010 20:02

Katare wrote:more orders will not work, example Arjun orders. If they do not meet acceptance tests they'll not be accepted even if produced. What counts is progress in project and product maturity, a good example is Akash.


The Akash claim actually supports the possibility more LCA can & should be ordered.

Akash had similar complaints when benchmarked against far more expensive systems and only 2 squadrons were placed as an initial order. Subsequently, the IAF realized its worth and ordered 6 more squadrons. This was also because the IAF needed a capable system ASAP, and went for a pragmatic choice & did not just hanker for the next series of unattainable ASRs. They could well do the same for the LCA. The numbers clearly support the fact that the LCA MK-1 is currently ahead of the best IAF light fighter (MiG-21 Bison) and also offers several capabilities an upgraded medium strike fighter cannot (upgraded MiG-27 Flogger). Both of these types are deployed across the PAF & the LCA MK-1 could replace the non upgraded MiG-21 M/MF and MiG-27s (no orders have been placed beyond 2 Upgrades), even as the MK-2 comes online.

Against firm order of 28 LCAs, only 5 have been produced in last 5 years. Where is the case for ordering more and how would it help LCA if they can't use that money because they don'y have IOC/FOC? Order's must be won not given as favors.


Irrelevant, as nobody is saying order in advance but once IOC/FOC is done. The first statement is not correct as prototype/R&D production rates are invariably slower than those of final delivery units, which are of relatively fixed production variants and are hence brought out faster. Take the projected JSF rates vis a vis current prototype production & tests for instance.

DRDO's R&D is funded from a separate budget they are not reliant on profits generated from sales of their products like private western companies.


This has nothing to do with DRDO's R&D as the LCA program is funded till 2018. We are speaking of enhancing the IAF's combat power, avoiding gaps while simultaneously giving local industry a benefit.

As of now LCA does not have manufacturing or production related issues that need further investments. HAL has received ~$500MM from IAF to build production facilities for series production. Another order of 20 is assured if HAL/ADA can build capacity and execute current order. R&D funding has been fully approved for Mk1 and Mk2 til 2018 and MCA too have started to receive funding.


The LCA is beyond HAL. Further orders benefit a wide variety of small, medium industries across the length and breadth of India which subsist on such orders for their equipment. The more LCA MK1s there are, the better for Indian aerospace. Not to mention the boost they'll give to the IAF which is the primary criteria for placing the order.
Last edited by Karan M on 30 Nov 2010 20:38, edited 1 time in total.

Kapil
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kapil » 30 Nov 2010 20:12

8)

Wow!

What a day.

Look at the people involved,their seniority,their experience. Amazing work!

Kapil

Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2010 20:27

Austin wrote:I dont think IAF will buy more than 40 Mk1 that they have ordered , since they are not happy with 404 performance and would like to move to 414 which is Tejas Mk2 , this is what P Rajkumar has said


That is fine, and we don't need even P Rajkumar to look at it, as the numbers speak for themselves in the discussion. I agree the IAF intends to standardize on the MK2 rather than the MK1, but the discussion was around the combat capability even a LCA MK1 brings to the class & that hopefully, the IAF would add a squadron or two more, based on the capabilities it would offer.

To recap: Based on all the data we have now, what we have here are ASRs which are fairly hard to meet. In a MiG-21 footprint (size wise), we have a radar/sensor footprint required which is in the Mirage 2000/upgraded MiG-29 class (100 Km+ for small targets), a payload (3.5T) which is in the Jaguar/MiG-27 class (medium weight category for IAF) and capabilities which are only being inducted via upgrades in the strike fleet (Litening, PGM, glass cockpit). STR/ITR (per original reports) and aerodynamic performance, were also tabulated based on performance obtained in early generation F-16, Mirage 2000, and MiG-29 fighters, which were amongst the best in terms of having relatively spartan onboard equipment and hence, credible maneuverability/agility.

So the LCA MK1 as it stands, with payload limitations (thanks to weight having overshot by 1T),
has payload/pylon flexibility and hence payload/range profile which currently beats the Bison/Mig-21 class, but is lesser than that of the MiG-27 & Jaguar. However, it brings far more situational awareness and self defence capability than these other 2 aircraft, since it is designed for air to air to begin with, full digital avionics and handling, and not to mention the older upgraded aircraft will get pretty hard to maintain in the coming decade.

Overall, it still provides quite a useful capability relatively cheap to the IAF ($26 Million, per Raman Puri, November 2010) which comes in as a fair deal compared to the heavy costs for upgrading earlier fighters (e.g. Mirage 2000's at $41 M, December 2009, even if half is for the airframe and rest for weapons, the LCA is well placed).

The LCA MK1 cannot act as a deep strike bomb truck, but in everything else, it will still be very useful as we have seen via the numbers. Even with a 2T payload, the LCA can handle a variety of tasks credibly in air to air, and air to ground.

The Chinese have followed the same approach with the J-10 building capabilities up in blocks and ordering tranches of around 100-150 aircraft. In our case, we can think of a LCA MK-1 force of around 100 aircraft. There are also proposals to upgrade the MK1s to better aircraft performance even as the MK2 is being inducted, so even there we can have better performance.

shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2010 20:37

David Siegel wrote:Not sure if this is most recent test-firing video. The chase aircraft is not a LCA in this case.
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-video-tejas-successfully-test-fires-r-73-missiles/20101130.htm


This is the same old one

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2010 21:42

Quite frankly, that news is rather confusing. It provides a lot of data once again, but no real information:

So the LCA fired R73, but it did so in 2007 as well, what is the difference? Firing at sea level? Listed below are the objectives of the previous test:
Accordingly the main objectives of test firing were to validate:

•Safe separation of the missile from the parent aircraft.
•Effect of missile plume on engine air-intake
•Functionality of store management system (SMS) including safety interlocks
•Effect of missile plume on composites structures
•Handling quality assessment during missile launch


Here are the objectives from current tests:
This flight test demonstrated the following important requirements of the user:
a) Safe separation of the missile from the test aircraft.
b) No Missile plume effect on the engine operation
c) Avionics and Weapon system functionality and safety interlocks
d) Aircraft Handling quality assessment during missile release
e) Effect of missile plume on the composite structure.


The internal fuel weight of the LCA, if only 2500 liters (~2000kg), is a bit on the low side for a 6500kg a/c.

As far as the speed for the testing program goes, it is still wonlee crawling imho. They took 2 damned years to make a decision for the engine. And someone was saying this decision was rather quick! In 2 years the Gripen went from being a seedha-sada a/c into the Gripen NG with AESA radar, increased payload, fuel, engine etc. Even the Thundaar is rumored to have tested a cheeni BVR mijjile! The J10 is also sporting new frills. WTF! How can mango jingo be overjoyed because his fighter phires the R73 one more time?

One possible good news - confirmation of Derby as BVR.

CM

Gaur
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Gaur » 30 Nov 2010 22:03

^^
This is important because earlier there was no radar. Notice the part about this being only one of the series of missile tests this week. So, this could only be the primarily test which mainly reconfirms safe missile separation.

I think this is going to be a very interesting week.

Cain Marko
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2010 22:10

Gaur wrote:^^
This is important because earlier there was no radar. Notice the part about this being only one of the series of missile tests this week. So, this could only be the primarily test which mainly reconfirms safe missile separation.

I think this is going to be a very interesting week.


Yes, I spaced that radar bit - so the R73 is cued via radar. More tests the merrier!

CM

ramana
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2010 22:26

To recap can we have a list of LCA test goals accomplished to date?
Note the info about IOC standard suite of avionics in this round of 'sea trials'.


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