Indian Military Aviation

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 30 Nov 2010 06:36

BAE Systems Fined for supplying defective components for the Hawk AJT

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Nov 2010 14:13

Rookie pilots still train on aging MiG-21s

By Rajat Pandit

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Nov 2010 14:47

Cobham signs £18m Indian air force deal

Dorset-based aerospace and defence group Cobham is to supply weapons carriage and release equipment for the Indian Air Force Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer programme, under an £18m contract with Hawk manufacturer BAE Systems. Cobham's 'Mission Equipment' strategic business unit will deliver "significant quantities" of Light Duty Ejector Release Units and Carrier Bomb Light Stores (CBLS) training aids to BAE Systems between 2012 and 2014.

Both of these systems are integrated onto a variety of platforms around the world and are already in service with the Indian Air Force following its first purchase of Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers from BAE Systems in 2004. Cobham's contract award follows India's purchase of 57 BAE Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer Aircraft (AJT) in July 2010, to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics in India. Forty aircraft have been assigned to the Indian Air Force and the remaining 17 will be operated by the Indian Navy.

Iain Gibson, vice-president of Cobham Mission Equipment, said: "We are delighted to receive this order which will further strengthen our long standing ties with BAE Systems and the Indian Armed Forces, Cobham's largest export market. The ERU-119 and CBLS are established market leaders and continue to deliver consistently high performance and reliable service."

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Dec 2010 04:38

ERU-119 = launch rails for weapons. The brochure shows AAMs mounted on a Hawk-200

http://www.cobham.com/media/36698/cob_m ... _uk_02.pdf

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 01 Dec 2010 18:25

U.S. Approves Boeing C-17 Globemaster Sale to India

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2010 11:35

I don't know why the C-17 thread was locked,it was a good thread,perhaps a new one on "transport aircraft and helos" should be started.

You know this is the season for the birds to migrate south.I am ecstatic! A little bird told me news of a feathered friend which performed fabulously in the heights in high company.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Dec 2010 11:44

Can you be a little less cryptic for some block head like me.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2010 17:34

I was told that that the ****** of the &^@@$ were top****** and that the ***** was done in the *******of the ****! I'm sure that you now get the picture! There are enough clues.

The latest test of B'mos-3 meant for "mountain" terrain,indicates perhaps why the induction of extra heavylift transports are required.It is now cleart that tactical versions of the missile are going to be extensively used in any future spat with the Dragon,and the missiles need to be transported to a variety of locations from east to west.The announced refurbishment and upgradation of old WW2 high-alt. airstrips will ensure that the missile can be at short notice airlifted in the event of a crisis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Dec 2010 18:01

Philip wrote:I was told that that the ****** of the &^@@$ were top****** and that the ***** was done in the *******of the ****! I'm sure that you now get the picture! There are enough clues.

The latest test of B'mos-3 meant for "mountain" terrain,indicates perhaps why the induction of extra heavylift transports are required.It is now cleart that tactical versions of the missile are going to be extensively used in any future spat with the Dragon,and the missiles need to be transported to a variety of locations from east to west.The announced refurbishment and upgradation of old WW2 high-alt. airstrips will ensure that the missile can be at short notice airlifted in the event of a crisis.

Yes. I noted the "mountain terrain" mention too. I wonder what mountains they mean?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2010 18:17

Shiv,call me please.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Dec 2010 18:28

Philip wrote:I don't know why the C-17 thread was locked,it was a good thread,perhaps a new one on "transport aircraft and helos" should be started.

started one.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 54&start=0

we already have a helo thread.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2010 20:43

I was using google maps to check the nato airbase in ramstein germany . its a incredible piece of work - there are around 200 hardened shelters around the 2 runways for fighters - some are dispersed in typical style (see hindon) and some (dozens) are side by side in rows. two giant parking aprons for large a.c . the first one is around 1km x 150m and the second one is also similar size. literlly dozens of strategic transports, awacs, tankers could park and work from there.
also check out "aviano italy" - not as humongous but could house 4-5 squadrons of fighters which it did in the kosovo war.

I wish we had something half as big, but we dont - time to cower in my soiled dhoti back in the goat cave.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Dec 2010 20:45

Philip wrote:I was told that that the ****** of the &^@@$ were top****** and that the ***** was done in the *******of the ****! I'm sure that you now get the picture! There are enough clues.

The latest test of B'mos-3 meant for "mountain" terrain,indicates perhaps why the induction of extra heavylift transports are required.It is now cleart that tactical versions of the missile are going to be extensively used in any future spat with the Dragon,and the missiles need to be transported to a variety of locations from east to west.The announced refurbishment and upgradation of old WW2 high-alt. airstrips will ensure that the missile can be at short notice airlifted in the event of a crisis.

Aha......... Thanks, the light bulb moment.

I can be most stupid at times.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2010 21:17

ramstein is also the logistics and medical hub for us forces in europe

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Dec 2010 21:26

These are probably bases made with heavy investment by NATO during cold war , suitably hardened with parallel takeoff/landing strip to remain operational in backdrop of full Nuclear War.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Dec 2010 21:37

ramstein, bitburg, spangdahlem, bruggen, wildenrath... and many more... all the ex-Luftwaffe bases turned into hardened jet bases in the 60's and were reinforced in the 70's

quite a few have been retired now and function as budget airline airports

ramstein and spangdahlem remain as major centres still

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Dec 2010 03:01

Singha wrote:I was using google maps to check the nato airbase in ramstein germany . its a incredible piece of work - there are around 200 hardened shelters around the 2 runways for fighters - some are dispersed in typical style (see hindon) and some (dozens) are side by side in rows. two giant parking aprons for large a.c . the first one is around 1km x 150m and the second one is also similar size. literlly dozens of strategic transports, awacs, tankers could park and work from there.
also check out "aviano italy" - not as humongous but could house 4-5 squadrons of fighters which it did in the kosovo war.

I wish we had something half as big, but we dont - time to cower in my soiled dhoti back in the goat cave.

IAF could probably focus on creating one of these types of massive airfields per Command (based on strategic location) as a starting point. Here is my list:

WAC -> Halwara AFS
SWAC -> Jamnagar AFS (already has two runways)
CAC -> Bareilly AFS
EAC -> Tezpur AFS
SAC -> Car Nicobar AFS

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2010 06:52

The Americans are powerful
They have huge air bases
Therefore having huge air bases will make us like Americans
It will make us powerful.
I am not interested in why the Americans have such large bases and why we don't.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 03 Dec 2010 12:06

shiv wrote:The Americans are powerful
They have huge air bases
Therefore having huge air bases will make us like Americans
It will make us powerful.
I am not interested in why the Americans have such large bases and why we don't.

epic

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2010 12:27

shiv wrote:The Americans are powerful
They have huge air bases
Therefore having huge air bases will make us like Americans
It will make us powerful.
I am not interested in why the Americans have such large bases and why we don't.

Shame on you for asking such intelligent questions......people like you are stopping the progress of India to the super-duper powerdom......finger on your lips and heads down on table.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Dec 2010 13:45

IAF: Air courier services to Kargil for winters

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Dec 2010 14:09

sarcasm and jokes aside, ramstein is so big because it is the LOGISTICS HUB for US forces in Europe
it is very definitely a symbol of American power in Europe
we don't have the same projection needs (as yet)

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Dec 2010 16:15

srai wrote:
Singha wrote:I was using google maps to check the nato airbase in ramstein germany . its a incredible piece of work - there are around 200 hardened shelters around the 2 runways for fighters - some are dispersed in typical style (see hindon) and some (dozens) are side by side in rows. two giant parking aprons for large a.c . the first one is around 1km x 150m and the second one is also similar size. literlly dozens of strategic transports, awacs, tankers could park and work from there.
also check out "aviano italy" - not as humongous but could house 4-5 squadrons of fighters which it did in the kosovo war.

I wish we had something half as big, but we dont - time to cower in my soiled dhoti back in the goat cave.
IAF could probably focus on creating one of these types of massive airfields per Command (based on strategic location) as a starting point. Here is my list:

WAC -> Halwara AFS

SWAC -> Jamnagar AFS (already has two runways)

CAC -> Bareilly AFS

EAC -> Tezpur AFS

SAC -> Car Nicobar AFS

All this requires is a Ding Dong with a tactical nuke to take out a concentrated chunk of IAF. What is really needed are few hardened sites for accomodating and protecting the heavy birds like transports, AWACS and refuellers who anyway are slow and not easy to hide.
For Fighters and Helis numerous, distributed, small, easy to maintain/ repair landing and take off strips will more than do for a guerilla style sustainment. This makes use of Tactical nukes harder and costlier. Ring them with cheap Akash and AAA to make life difficult for conventional strikes.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Dec 2010 16:29

All Hawk trainer issues with India resolved: BAE Systems
Defenseworld

BAE Systems has asserted that issues concerning the Hawk trainer jet deliveries have been resolved to “both parties’ satisfaction” and that there are no outstanding concerns regarding the delivery of parts for the aircraft which is being manufactured under licence in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

“The follow on Hawk contract signed this summer for a further 57 aircraft is testimony to both the aircraft’s performance for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the strong relationship existing between HAL and BAE Systems”, said Guy Douglas, BAE Systems spokesperson in India.

India’s defence minister A.K. Antony had told Parliament earlier this week that BAE Systems had been fined for supplying defective components which in turn had caused a delay in the supply of the aircraft by HAL to the IAF. "In view of the delay in delivery of Hawk by HAL due to the receipt of defective components, jigs and fixtures from the foreign manufacturer, on whom liquidated damages have been levied, the original training plan by Hawk AJT for 2010-11 has been modified," he had said.

A HAL source told defenseworld.net that damages were in the region of $10 million which was required to enable retooling and fixtures necessary for the assembly which had not been originally supplied by the manufacturer. The licence manufacture of Hawk trainers at HAL is again as per schedule and supply of aircraft to the IAF should be normalized from the beginning of next year, he said.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Dec 2010 16:43

India’s top diplomat for western European affairs, Joint Secretary T.P. Seetharam, told reporters in New Delhi on Dec. 1 that while no major defense deals are likely to be signed during Sarkozy’s stay, the visit is likely to advance plans for French companies to upgrade 51 Mirage-2000 jet fighters built by Dassault for the Indian Air Force 30 years ago.

Thales SA will push to clinch the upgrade deal that may include new avionics and radar and be worth up to $2 billion, La Tribune newspaper reported on Sept. 28.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-0 ... visit.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 19:31

well sirji the US philosophy was to go on the offensive and make sure no hostile airpower reaches these big exposed aprons crowded with large planes (the fighters and helis are ok enough in their shelters) .... in WW3 ofcourse it would attract a soviet SS25 or two if the war went nuclear .... not that it would matter in that phase ... the world would end.

my vision was having large airbases and good repair infra gives you flexibility in loading / unloading / repair that small sdre type bases cannot - for instance you could comandeer a dozen civilian planes and fly them to Leh within a 1 hr landing window in the night (for safety) and unload/refuel all at the same time, and in parallel IL76/C17 sorties could continue.

faster and heavier the airbridge the better concentration of force/recovery from weak positions.

its also fairly cheap to create and upkeep vast aprons and parallel runways...cheap compared to both the costly modern a/c or losing a short war due to insufficient resources in theater. PRC Is building large and long runways in tibet which arent even in much active use in peacetime.

95% chances are a future war will not be nuclear - let us optimize and try to win this 95% - a extra regiment of Pinaka or 155mm cannons could mean the diff between life and death for a batallion of troops or the gain/loss of some strategic chokepoint.

Johann saar once said "if you really want to scare your neighbours, invest heavily in logistics"

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Dec 2010 19:55

i don't agree
the triad generates stability w.r.t. china (rational player)
nothing changes with pak (irrational player)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2010 21:09

The best bunkers are the invisible ones. There are some reports of what Pakistan has.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Dec 2010 21:31

shiv wrote:The best bunkers are the invisible ones. There are some reports of what Pakistan has.

you mean like the invijible dawg phiter?

arya · Post by **arya** » 03 Dec 2010 23:01

cross-posting from FGFA thread [What Uncle Jee think about India]

Strengthen economic and military-to-military cooperation with India. India’s involvement in the PAK FA program could be potentially helpful. A large fighter fleet in the hands of the world’s largest democracy and a key American partner could counterbalance China’s growing air power capabilities and other powers in the region. Given the historical rivalry between India and China, New Delhi will likely seek to convince Moscow to restrict exports of advanced weapons technology, such as the PAK FA fighter, to China. Indeed, India may make its participation in the project contingent on such restrictions. India is increasingly relying on U.S. weapons technology and equipment to fulfill its military modernization requirements, while still maintaining a strong defense relationship with Russia, its long-standing friend. The U.S. should continue to strengthen economic and security cooperation with India. The U.S. Air Force and Indian Air Force should continue to conduct joint wargaming exercises, such as Red Flag in 2008.[132] Just as Lockheed Martin reportedly offered the F-35C to the Indian Navy to deploy on its future aircraft carriers,[133] the Administration should encourage the Indian Air Force to acquire the Joint Strike Fighter, allowing it to operate alongside the FGFA.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Report ... or-America

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Dec 2010 01:49

http://ibnlive.in.com/printpage.php?id= ... ction_id=3

IAF: Air courier services to Kargil for winters
Press Trust Of India

Jammu: Indian Air Force (IAF) will start air courier service to Kargil district in Ladakh from December 6 to facilitate the movement of people of the remote areas during winter.

"IAF will start its An-32 air courier service from Jammu and Srinagar airports from December 6 to facilitate movement of people in Kargil during winter as Srinagar-Kargil highway remains closed due to heavy snowfall," Transport and Consumer Affairs and Public Distribution (CAPD) Minister Qamar Ali Akhoon told reporters in Jammu.

A meeting was held with the Air Force officers on Thursday in which the schedule of air courier services from Srinagar and Jammu capital cities to airlift people of Kargil to the snow-cut district headquarter was discussed, he said.

Courier service will operate between Srinagar and Kargil on every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday, while between Kargil and Jammu on every Tuesday, he said. Rupees 1,000 will be charged per passenger for flying from Srinagar to Kargil and rupees 1,300 from Jammu to Kargil, Akhoon said.

In case of bad weather, passengers flying to Kargil would be dropped at Leh and additional flights would be operated next day, he said.

Kargil airstrip is one of the newer airfields in the J&K theatre. It was created after the war in 99. Unfortunately, it seems to have poor alignment which contributed to An-32 (flown by Air Marshal Bhatia) ingress into Pakistani side of LoC.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Dec 2010 05:58

Singha wrote:...

my vision was having large airbases and good repair infra gives you flexibility in loading / unloading / repair that small sdre type bases cannot - for instance you could comandeer a dozen civilian planes and fly them to Leh within a 1 hr landing window in the night (for safety) and unload/refuel all at the same time, and in parallel IL76/C17 sorties could continue.

faster and heavier the airbridge the better concentration of force/recovery from weak positions.

its also fairly cheap to create and upkeep vast aprons and parallel runways...cheap compared to both the costly modern a/c or losing a short war due to insufficient resources in theater. PRC Is building large and long runways in tibet which arent even in much active use in peacetime.

...

Johann saar once said "if you really want to scare your neighbours, invest heavily in logistics"

Yes ... was thinking from the same perspective. But some people translated that into a "being like Americans" thing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Dec 2010 06:33

srai wrote:
Singha wrote:...

my vision was having large airbases and good repair infra gives you flexibility in loading / unloading / repair that small sdre type bases cannot - for instance you could comandeer a dozen civilian planes and fly them to Leh within a 1 hr landing window in the night (for safety) and unload/refuel all at the same time, and in parallel IL76/C17 sorties could continue.

faster and heavier the airbridge the better concentration of force/recovery from weak positions.

its also fairly cheap to create and upkeep vast aprons and parallel runways...cheap compared to both the costly modern a/c or losing a short war due to insufficient resources in theater. PRC Is building large and long runways in tibet which arent even in much active use in peacetime.

...

Johann saar once said "if you really want to scare your neighbours, invest heavily in logistics"
Yes ... was thinking from the same perspective. But some people translated that into a "being like Americans" thing.

There are a lot of things in the quoted posts above that are "open to discussion". Not to me clear why both of you would agree on the following contentions

Good repair facilities=large air base. Repair of what? Repair of runway? Repair of aircraft?

Dozen civil planes commandeered: Most civil planes are good only for passengers and hopeless for carrying fully armed troops and useless for carrying even 120 mm artillery, radar, SAMs or vehicles.

Landing window of 1 hour at night: Loading and unloading of one tank or one large piece of hardware would take more than one hour. 12 Aircraft would need 12 teams and 12 places to do that. Bad weather may not allow that one hour to occur at the designated time at night. The terrain around forward air bases - especially Leh is not suitable to have a huge 3000 or 5000 acre area to house all the men and material required for this sort of work on a permanent basis. The supply of food fuel and medical care to those permanent staff up in Leh would itself be a huge logistical operation. This sort of facility in peacetime or wartime would hardly come "cheap". There is no substitute for being prepared earlier rather than envisaging a Berlin airlift style last minute operation. And in a forward air base - even if you have 3 runways - 3 bombs on the runway will put it out of action. And the more aircraft stuck on the ground the better for the attacker.

What irritates me most about the Ramstein comparison is the suggestion that there is something inadequate in Indian air bases without spelling out what those inadequacies are, and without stating how and why the US ended up with a Ramstein formula.

I am not saying it is bad or that the US is wrong, but that does not mean that it can or should be applied by India to half a dozen air bases without knowing why the US did it and why we need to do it.

At the end of world war 2 the US had an inventory of over 10,000 aircraft. Britain too had thousands. As recently as 1980 Britain had over 1000 aircraft in its air force and navy. In wartime it does not make sense to keep your aircraft in one place, bunker or no bunker. In peacetime it makes eminent sense to do that, but it must be a place where people cam live and work for maintenance and should be well linked by road and rail to act as a logistics hub.

The US with thousands upon thousands of active an reserve aircraft - a country that maintained 24x7 flying patrols during the cold war has developed huge facilities to match the size of the forces they have maintained from the 1940s. Americans citizens have helped build fly and retire at least 100,000 aircraft since that time. Possibly more. We are not even at 10% of that number.

India's piffling numbers and forces are so small that I am completely unable to see why we need Ramstein like air bases without the numbers or capability. And if there is a requirement - no mention has been made of a credible requirement rather than the debatable post quoted above about a "forward air base" like Ramstein - which is a bad idea. I think Sargodha was designed by the US as a typical cold war style air base when American advisors could come and go and have facilities like they enjoy anywhere in the world. Aren't we once again looking at something American and asking "I wish we had that?". Perhaps we do not have that for some good reasons. No?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 08:37

we have neither the numbers or road/rail infra in fwd areas to quickly redeploy heavy nos of men and materials deployed in say bomdi-la to leh on a few hrs notice esp after the plaaf/2nd arty have worked over our precarious road infra and limited railheads.

I hope you are right and we do not need heavy air logistics to save the day. in a 2 weeks war, 2 days is too long a time to buildup and grab what we can at the table/cover our rear after a surprise attack.

if you are wrong, we will know.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Dec 2010 08:44

Singha wrote:we have neither the numbers or road/rail infra in fwd areas to quickly redeploy heavy nos of men and materials deployed in say bomdi-la to leh on a few hrs notice esp after the plaaf/2nd arty have worked over our precarious road infra and limited railheads.

I hope you are right and we do not need heavy air logistics to save the day. in a 2 weeks war, 2 days is too long a time to buildup and grab what we can at the table/cover our rear after a surprise attack.

if you are wrong, we will know.

Everything has to be built up NOW before a war and not left to a last minute build up by air transport. Or else we have to stock up enough so that needs can be met by whatever transport is available no matter how intense the war. If we don't have the roads or rail - that is what we need to build - not large air bases. That is the whole point of my objection. On day 2 of a war nobody will know if the war is going to last 2 weeks or 2 months or 2 years. We have to be ready for anything. But none of this calls for a Ramstein style airbase either in Leh or Bomdi La - which apart from other things do not offer enough flat terrain to build such an air base.

I am sure we will know if I am wrong.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 08:50

even if the rohtang and other tunnels are completed in say a decade, we cannot provide cover to every place on it - chinese planes and cruise missiles can still damage it. brdo will repair it if possible quickly.

I agree that if we can afford it, keeping 100% stuff ready for use everywhere is the best but unrealistic option.

for resupply roads and rails have the major role , but we need strong air logistics also - I have been demanding a fleet of around 75 IL76 and 40-50 C17/AN124 in the transport a/c thread to that end

some "3 point shot" dislocative stuff like landing a para regiment and light vehicles with no warning direct from bangalore(kerala) onto the tail of a PLA division streaming into the battle area could be tried out.

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 04 Dec 2010 08:55

^^^^^ I think the Doctor here is more perceptive that the Lion. Aerial Warfare has changed irreversibly. NO Fixed Base can be protected against a determined accurate missile attack any more. 'Ramstein' s are not good value for money today, especially if we need to build one (without existing reliable high volume surface communication) across the Himalayas. Any one who has not actually participated in heavy construction work there will have difficulty in comprehending the magnitude of task.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Dec 2010 08:58

Why can't we have both ?

Seriously the point about having a large airbases is very much valid take for example the case of Dabolim airport in INS Hansa (Goa) it is supposed to have IN's major air station in the western (Karwar is still in works) and it has to share the airstrip and the supporting infrastructure with the civilian airline operators it is only a matter of time that pressure on the airport to accommodate more civilian flights would increase, the reason/justification for planning larger airbases is on the similar lines of need to have broader roads with more lanes in India i.e. in the longer run they are able to sustain the increase in traffic .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Dec 2010 08:59

Singha wrote:
for resupply roads and rails have the major role , but we need strong air logistics also - I have been demanding a fleet of around 75 IL76 and 40-50 C17/AN124 in the transport a/c thread to that end

This is indeed a good idea. I would add to this the creation of enough spare airstrips and zones for supply drops without the creation of Ramstein style air bases - which cannot be maintained in an area that does not even have roads or rail.

I think what is forgotten here is that logistics and supply by air are a day to day affair that the IAF has been doing for decades. The An 32 is the main workhorse because "day to day supply" does not require heavy lift. Hopefuly the MTA will take over. I will link the videos related to this in the transport thread. The funny part is I make a Benis style video of complete rubbish about the 1965 war and it gets tens of thousands of hits. I post two documentary videos of what India's transport fleet does and some of those videos have got fewer hits in 3 years than one video of LCA-J-10-JF 17 comparison got in 3 days.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 11:46

^:rotfl:

the capex cost of creating new runways, a few HAS, or new airbases is quite cheap (say 1000cr per base) which is like one C-17/A330 flyaway cost. maybe another 200cr for base housing, township, ATC....

panda is going to be coming hard at us from every direction like jackie chan on steroids...we could build up redundant airbase capacity wherever we can like in bihar, UP, WB, brahmaputra valley to meet that challenge...of all people, the pakis have long perfected the strategy of a/c 'disappearing to the west (into baluchistan)' during the day and coming forward to attack at night when interceptors/AA find it more difficult.