Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2010 18:02

^^^Srai, this is what Jain is supposed to have said:

“Each regiment is much bigger than a squadron, much, much bigger…May be five-six squadron is equivalent to one regiment,” Jain said

So, even he is not sure of what is the strength of the IA Akash SAM Group and is speculating. As I've said earlier, the SAM Group nomenclature is unique to the SA-6 held by IA Air Defense Arty(ADA) Regiment and we've only two of them; the induction of SSM with Prithvi was the next instance of Arty Regiment being called as Missile Group (the Brahmos units IMO, are called Missile Regiments). Other SAM units equipped with SA-8/OSA-AKM are called AD Missile Regiment (Self Propelled). Those equipped with ZSU-23-4/Tunguska are called SP Arty Regiments.

So, my request you to is to re-visit the numbers and re-do them. Also,for calculating the requirement of such groups, you can assume that each Corps on Western front at least will have one such integral Group.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Dec 2010 02:05

rohitvats wrote:^^^Srai, this is what Jain is supposed to have said:

“Each regiment is much bigger than a squadron, much, much bigger…May be five-six squadron is equivalent to one regiment,” Jain said
So, even he is not sure of what is the strength of the IA Akash SAM Group and is speculating. As I've said earlier, the SAM Group nomenclature is unique to the SA-6 held by IA Air Defense Arty(ADA) Regiment and we've only two of them; the induction of SSM with Prithvi was the next instance of Arty Regiment being called as Missile Group (the Brahmos units IMO, are called Missile Regiments). Other SAM units equipped with SA-8/OSA-AKM are called AD Missile Regiment (Self Propelled). Those equipped with ZSU-23-4/Tunguska are called SP Arty Regiments.

So, my request you to is to re-visit the numbers and re-do them. Also,for calculating the requirement of such groups, you can assume that each Corps on Western front at least will have one such integral Group.

My thinking was similar to yours on that a Akash Group equals a Regiment.

Some months ago, someone in this forum had mentioned that Akash Regiment is bigger than a Akash Group (as shown in DRDO diagrams with 4 batteries). Supposedly, an Akash Regiment has 5 or 6 batteries. This was in reply to my numbers estimates on Akash orders (in which I used the DRDO's Akash Group concept as the baseline). In the new report, instead of 5/6 batteries, P C Jain mentions 5/6 squadrons ... maybe it is a slip of tongue

IA's Akash Regiment could be slightly bigger than the DRDO's version of the Akash Group. Instead of 4 Akash batteries, there could be up to 6 Akash batteries per regiment.

In any case, we need to wait for the actual order from the IA to confirm the numbers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Dec 2010 13:25

srai wrote:
<SNIP>

IA's Akash Regiment could be slightly bigger than the DRDO's version of the Akash Group. Instead of 4 Akash batteries, there could be up to 6 Akash batteries per regiment.

<SNIP>

Why should the above be the case?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2010 15:06

to defeat saturation attacks with more missiles? redundant and reserve launchers?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Dec 2010 23:42

^^^Singha, the information about composition of Akash Group is based on current structure and I have not come across any indications of it moving to higher batteries per Group. One can raise as many questions and scenarios and create a debate where non exists. So, if anyone wants to believe 4 batteries per Group, please be my guest. Otherwise, happy hunting!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Dec 2010 23:51

rohit, all this has got me completely confused. I'm sure many others will share this view.

could you please give your summary of the respective formations for the sake of all ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Dec 2010 00:15

^^^Which formations?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 06 Dec 2010 08:21

Brahmos missile base @ Pilani in Rajasthan. The chief of army staff is now putting in on the military map of India. The Brahmos missile base makes BITS Pilani the first deemed university to exchange research programmes with the men in uniform.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=Nqv-eFi6Xak

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Dec 2010 09:16

^^^ Extremely important step !

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Dec 2010 09:43

Going OT but I thought tech folks in IA could pursue higher degrees in the IITs while in service?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2010 09:56

yes they can get Mtech degree from IIT. I think MBA option is also there...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2010 10:12

rohitvats wrote:^^^Which formations?

IA and IAF akash groups.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Dec 2010 12:00

^^^In case of IA, the Akash SAM will replace the SA-6 being held in two Kvadrat Groups in the ADA Corps. Each such Group consists of 4 batteries. AFAIK, both these groups are with one (I) AD Brigade.

In case of IAF, the SAM will be with Missile Squadrons - each comes with two Missile flights (equivalent to a Battery in IA) and one Technical flight. But Squadrons with 3 (or even four) Missiles Flights are not uncommon - especially when IAF did number plate some of the Missile Squadrons and consolidated the Missile Flights in others. In IAF, the Akash will replace the Pechora (SA-3).

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 06 Dec 2010 21:39

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=68113

The Government has already approved expansion of BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Limited (BATL) to establish an integration complex for the BrahMos missile on the land owned by Indian Air Force (IAF). The necessary funding has also been provided. The construction activity will start once the land is made available by the IAF after they get suitable land for construction of housing for Airmen.

An autonomous body "National Institute for Research & Development in Defence Shipbuilding (NIRDESH)", under Registration of Society Act 1860 has been registered recently with its headquarters at Beypore, Kozikode, Kerala.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Kodikkunnil Suresh in Lok Sabha today.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 06 Dec 2010 21:55

Agni-II + launch before December 10
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article915435.ece
T. S. Subramanian

Flush with the successful flight of surface-to-surface missile Agni-1 on Thursday , the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is preparing to launch Agni-II +, “a totally new missile,” before December 10.

The launch will take place from the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast, and preparations for it will begin in a few days.

The Agni-II + is a surface-to-surface missile that can carry nuclear warheads. It can strike targets 2,500 km to 3,000 km away. It is an intermediary between Agni-II and Agni-III. While Agni-II has a range of 2,500 km, Agni-III can home in on targets 3,500 km way.

Agni-II + will add teeth to the country's nuclear deterrence. It has two stages and both are powered by solid propellants. It can be transported by both rail and road.

Interceptor planned

In the coming weeks, the DRDO plans to launch an interceptor missile as part of its efforts to establish a ballistic missile shield. “We will soon launch an interceptor from the Wheeler Island, which will intercept a ballistic missile launched from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Orissa,” a DRDO official said.

The interception would take place at an altitude of 15 km in what is called endo-atmosphere. The missile from Chandipur would mimic the trajectory of a ballistic missile launched from an enemy-country.

“We are trying to attempt a very different trajectory [from the earlier interceptor missions]. When the enemy missile is coming down in its trajectory, it will try to dodge the interceptor missile. The interceptor should be able to take care of this and still hit it,” the official said adding the interceptor would be a single-stage supersonic missile, called Advanced Air Defence. The attacker would be a modified Prithvi missile.

Prithvi-II launch soon

The coming weeks will see the launch of Prithvi-II, which had inducted into the Services. It can carry nuclear warheads.

“We are working on Agni-V for its maiden launch in 2011. It will be the flagship missile of the DRDO,” said a DRDO missile technologist. “The missile will have a range of 5,000 km. Agni-III will form the building block for Agni-V.”

With the addition of a third upper stage and some minor modifications, the two-stage Agni-III would transform into an awesome three-stage Agni-V. All the three stages would use solid propellants as fuel.

K-15 production

Sources in the DRDO said the production of submarine-launched K-15 missile was in full swing. The missile had been renamed B-05. After the launch, the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets. India's nuclear-powered submarine named “Arihant” would be armed with these missiles.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Dec 2010 22:12

indranilroy wrote:^^^ Extremely important step !

That report talks about technical complex and not a Missile base, per se. Secondly, I fail to understand the reason to locate such a technical complex so close to Western border? There are other places in depth where such a base could have been set-up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2010 23:37

Dinesha posted
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 76#p990076

my comments in IF:

Also the mountian warfare Brahmos application reduces the need to use low yield nukes to close the mountain passes. So its a very important advantage for India as it keeps the threshold high. I can think of their using Brahmos to blow up mtn passes to cut-off retreat/supply lines to advancing PRC troops in Gilgit Baltistan areas. So it will be battle of Tannenberg redux..

* So Agni II+ will be a new generation, road and rail mobile nuke missile. Most likely it will replace the AII eventually.

* The AAD interceptor test is to show capability against manouvering payloads. That is to show its capability against the M-15 type PRC missiles supplied to TSP and also the future ASBM that PRC plans to deploy.

* Agni V is to be three stage all solid missile.

* K-15/B-05 will be for the Arihant outload and the declared trajectory is similar to the Shourya.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Dec 2010 23:40

rohitvats wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ Extremely important step !
That report talks about technical complex and not a Missile base, per se. Secondly, I fail to understand the reason to locate such a technical complex so close to Western border? There are other places in depth where such a base could have been set-up.

I was only speaking of Defence Research or any research tapping into the academia. Its a win win condition for all
1. Research taps into more brains
2. Brings money into the university which helps progress university/professors research capability ... this enormously changes the quality of education imparted to students.
3. Gives enormous exposure to students

It's a tried and tested method and it works quite well the world over.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Dec 2010 03:23

A Naive question, How deadly will be hypersonic Brahmos with pin point accuracy while carrying 330Kg warhead with this new CL20 masala? I am thinkg about Skardu and Sargodha.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Dec 2010 08:33

Prem wrote:A Naive question, How deadly will be hypersonic Brahmos with pin point accuracy while carrying 330Kg warhead with this new CL20 masala? I am thinkg about Skardu and Sargodha.

Also, how about Brahmos with 330 bombs of 1 kg each, spread out over say a 1km x 1km area. How much area can 1 kg of CL 20 incinerate?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 07 Dec 2010 08:36

One news report even talks about “Agni Missiles” being produced from this facility at Pilani

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Dec 2010 08:52

Pranav, are you thinking about JUD's yearly gathering in Pakjab?

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 07 Dec 2010 17:40

I wonder what purpose would a 750 Km SLBM serve. For launching it, the sub will have to get reasonably close to enemy's coastline revealing it's position at the launch and potentially putting the sub at risk.

Looks like a bit inadequate - the range should have been in excess of a thousand km.

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 07 Dec 2010 18:18

the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets

Doesn't travelling 20 KM Parabola first, increases the range more than 700 KM?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 07 Dec 2010 18:29

wilson_th wrote:
the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets
Doesn't travelling 20 KM Parabola first, increases the range more than 700 KM?

If I remember correctly, Arun Saar in his analysis mentioned that 750 Km is range for flat depressed trajectory, with Parabolic trajectory, range is close to 1900 Kms (although even it will not suffice).

It was for Shaurya although which is considered as land version of K 15 and which recently was quoted to be developed for Arihant right from the beginning by VKS

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Dec 2010 19:17

P Chitkara wrote:I wonder what purpose would a 750 Km SLBM serve. For launching it, the sub will have to get reasonably close to enemy's coastline revealing it's position at the launch and potentially putting the sub at risk.

Looks like a bit inadequate - the range should have been in excess of a thousand km.

it is good enough for the southernmost cities of pakistan, including karachi. everyone understands that this is a temporary measure.

wilson_th wrote:
the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets
Doesn't travelling 20 KM Parabola first, increases the range more than 700 KM?

depends on the eccentricity of the parabola doesn't it ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2010 21:01

Chitkara, Most countries have most of their assets around 400km from the coast/shore. The exceptions are Russia, US and PRC.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Dec 2010 21:37

Ramana,

Still having your crown jewl that closed to the enemies defences is an impudent strategy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2010 21:58

You mean imprudent.

Yeah thats why countries look for "strategic depth!"

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Dec 2010 23:24

IMO, in case of India-Pakistan shooting match, the 750kms is a good enough range. For a simple reason that TSPN plus the TSPAF Naval strike fighters have a very limited capability from ASW perspective. How does one hunt a lone SSBN like Arihant - it could be anywhere in the big wide Arabian Sea....I think it is good capability for starters.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 08 Dec 2010 08:45

Decks cleared for BATL phase II development
http://expressbuzz.com/cities/thiruvana ... 29404.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Dec 2010 09:15

ramana wrote:You mean imprudent.

Yeah thats why countries look for "strategic depth!"

Saar, I ment it in the context of old english

.

But you can call it imprudent as well.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 08 Dec 2010 18:38

In a couple of years the TSP will have 10+ ASW aircrafts - thanks to uncle. For the coastline of their size, it is quiet adequate. They can easily cue Agosta's to the Arihant's loctation.

They will throw whatever they can at Arihant - let there be no doubt in that. Arihant at the time of launch will be within 400 Km of enemy coastline. That is close enough, I may be wrong though.

What will we do for China; we can't be making subs for TSP alone? I know the 3500 Km missile is in pipeline but, that is said to be 12m in length. If I am not wrong, wont that be more that the diameter of Arihant? My point being, getting Arihant within 500 Km of the enemy coastline will have significant risk which, at least this SDRE feels is not worth taking.

My two cents...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2010 20:24

10+ ASW aircraft means lets say 7 available at any time. to patrol and sanitize an area upto 700km away from a coastline of 1000km - i.e. 700,000 sq km sounds like a tall order even if PAF could arrange a strong fighter escort for each one, which it cant.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 08 Dec 2010 22:13

Singha wrote:10+ ASW aircraft means lets say 7 available at any time. to patrol and sanitize an area upto 700km away from a coastline of 1000km - i.e. 700,000 sq km sounds like a tall order even if PAF could arrange a strong fighter escort for each one, which it cant.

But its a risk, isn't it? Nuclear Deterrence does not work on ifs and buts. Exposing Arihant class subs to enemy action means that a legitimate and conventional enemy action against those subs is in fact an attack on our nuclear deterrent. Not warranted.

Fact is, minus the 3500km range K-4s, the Arihant and our Nuclear naval triad is effectively toothless.

But it is to be used to generate operational experience which won't go away. What works for a checkout procedure for a 750 km missile would work for a 3500 km missile from the POV of nuclear usage. Not to mention the issue of comms and security related to Nuclear Deterrent subs which will come from initial experience with 750km+ missiles

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Dec 2010 22:46

well, the arihant is not going to be on her own...
one assumes that IN/IAF will be playing a 3D chess game with the PN/PAF

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 09 Dec 2010 00:51

Big News: Maiden test of Agni-II Plus slated for Thursday

Notwithstanding the inclement weather and incessant rain that lashed the Orissa coast following a depression, all preparations are underway for the maiden test of the Agni-II plus missile tomorrow.

Agni-II Plus is a modified version of the Agni-II strategic missile and the test will be conducted from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) on Wheeler Island in the Bay of Bengal.

The success of this maiden flight test of a complete nuclear-capable missile, also known as Agni-II prime or A-2, developed by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), will set a new chapter in the India's missile programme.

According to Director General of DRDO V K Saraswat, the new missile would have a higher range, higher performance with respect to the thrust and weight ratio than Agni-II missile which has a range of 2,000 km.

Being an upgraded version of the Agni-II, the new missile, sources said, would be more accurate and powerful.

The new missile would perform more better at various levels in terms of accuracy, strength and distance covered in comparison to Agni-II missile.

The surface-to-surface missile can hit targets in between 2,500 km and 3,000 km thereby bridging the gap between the Agni II missile which has a range of 2,500 kms and the Agni III missile having a range of 3,000 km.

The Agni II Plus missile could also carry extra fuel and will have a new motor in its re-entry vehicle for better maneuverability and an improved navigation system.

Let me Iron my lungi in advance.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Dec 2010 02:31

They will throw whatever they can at Arihant - let there be no doubt in that. Arihant at the time of launch will be within 400 Km of enemy coastline. That is close enough, I may be wrong though.

It will be repetition on 1971 Vikrant episode...If Arihant is bait for PN's most valued assets...so be it.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 09 Dec 2010 02:37

nrshah wrote:
wilson_th wrote:the missile would go up to an altitude of 20 km in a parabola and then travel 700 km to attack enemy assets
Doesn't travelling 20 KM Parabola first, increases the range more than 700 KM?

If I remember correctly, Arun Saar in his analysis mentioned that 750 Km is range for flat depressed trajectory, with Parabolic trajectory, range is close to 1900 Kms (although even it will not suffice).

It was for Shaurya although which is considered as land version of K 15 and which recently was quoted to be developed for Arihant right from the beginning by VKS[/quote]

Parabola is depressed trajectory which allows late detection and lower reentry temp/time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2010 08:38

is the A2-AT expected to use more of composite casing for better T:W ratio and climb speed ?