J & K news and discussion

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Dec 2010 05:15

All the suggestions are the rehash of the old things - nothing new.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2010 05:27

One can get some idea of his solutions from here :
http://www.lawac.org/speech/pre%20sept% ... olpert.htm

The fact of the matter is that there are several natural geographical and cultural units in the state of Jammu and Kashmir that really can easily be divided up. One of them in the south is Jammu, which is mostly Hindu and, of course, without the region of Poonch which came over to Azad Kashmir that could easily go to India. The other is Ladakh which is, of course, next to Tibet in the north, very sparsely populated, mostly by Buddhists, Tibetans, and which could, again, either go to India or somehow or other be allowed to integrate with China. But the most important of the regions is the Vale, and the Vale, which is the most beautiful part, the part that was rhapsodically described, of course, by Mogol emperors and poets as paradise on earth. It is no longer that, of course, but it has the Shalimar Gardens. That part is predominately Muslim, and probably would have gone easily to Pakistan had there been an early plebiscite. Now it might very well still go to Pakistan, but, in any event, should be polled. That could be arranged with U.N. help. It could be arranged if we offered our good offices, and I am sure that Pakistan would agree to any opportunity to have a mediator in this particular problem, but India never has.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 05 Dec 2010 05:29

CRamS wrote:Anybody knows what his suggestions are? Something straight out out of Shirleen's rear end? I know this Stanley dude is a darling of TSP because everytime they condict a terror attack, and India whines or even attempts something like operation Parakram, he calls it a 'knee jerk' reaction.

Don't waste your time. His "solutions" will be along the line of "India bends over and gives the Valley and any other area where Muslim are > 0.00001% of the population" and TSP agrees to "restrain LeT" from using RPGs on Fridays....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2010 06:00

He would give Ladakh to China, "Valley" to Pak, and concede Jammu to India. So he is a Jinnaist - who actually walks along religion==nation and later pretends oh-so-secular. But the clever shenanigans are there alright, wonder actually how much PRC now spends on such HMV's.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Dec 2010 06:06

Everybody underestimate Indian resolve!!

But then its both good and bad .

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Dec 2010 12:50

It's the easiest option for them because one is "Warrior" or "Martial" and the other is "inscrutable" and "homogeneous"

We on the other hand, are "spiritual" onlee....

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 05 Dec 2010 13:59

JE Menon wrote:Is that "Rageboy" on the left in 101?

Google's auto-face recognition even refuses to recognize it as a human - its code turned out to be more accurate than most human

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Dec 2010 14:40

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 06 Dec 2010 20:32

Minister demands "azadi" for Kashmir, leaves Congress red-faced

A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi", remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view.

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Dec 2010 22:14

ajit_tr wrote:Minister demands "azadi" for Kashmir, leaves Congress red-faced
A Jammu and Kashmir minister belonging to Congress has stoked a controversy by suggesting that Kashmir be granted "Azadi", remarks that embarassed his party which termed them as his personal view.

Addressing a rally at Bani in Kathua district on Sunday, Congress Minister for Health and Horticulture Sham Lal Sharma had raised the demand for making Jammu a separate state, giving union territory status to Ladakh and granting "Azadi" to Kashmir.

The fact that in recent times this kind of poison continues to spread is not a healthy development.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 Dec 2010 22:21

^^

Other than the "Azadi" part and whatever that means since even the Kashmiris among themselves do not have agreement over the nature of "Azadi", the minister may not be far off from what actually may end up happening. Jammuites do want there seperate state, Laddakhis want Union Territory status. The Kashmiris in the valley may get "autonomy" since "azadi" is out of question and will never happen since ammending Indian constitution to give the valley "azadi" is simply impossible because there will never be enough votes to ammend the constitution.

I say, make Jammu a seperate state, Laddakh the UT status, and punish the seperatist by giving them "autonomy" within Indian constitution.

That would teach them.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Dec 2010 22:37

Unless there is social change - population demographic change this will not go away. More new settlers have to be pushed into Kashmir and then we can consider all these proposals.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2010 22:54

During the weekend met an older NRI in Silo con Valley. He is retired now and travels back and forth to desh. He was advocating giving J&K to TSP and made comaprisons with Nizam's Hyderabad and Junagadh etc. And talked about sweep of History which shows Kashmir is part of Islamic Middle East.

So gave him the full BRF treatment and first demolished his analogues to Hyderabad and Junagadh. Next told him about the conditions for plebiscite and how they were irrelevant now due to the non-fullfillment of the conditions. Told him about Nazariye Paksitan and how it has radicalized Pakistan and that is cruel to hand over the delicate and sensitive Kashmiris to the fundamentalized killers. And then there are the Wahabandi vs Shia issues. And even KSA seeks India friendship now.

And told him the force of history was being diverted by West to make changes at the other end of Middle East and India too will change the force of history and eventually Pak Punjab will de-radicalize and become part of greater India which will stretch from the Syrian desert to the Plain of Jars for those are the greater abroad of the Indian civilization.

After four hours discussion he agreed I had a good grasp of things however we should let go fo the nettle in order to achieve greater India. I countered one grasps a nettle with gloves. We agreed to carry the discussion further without upsetting the womenfolk.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Dec 2010 23:57

Good job!! Ramana Sir!! We need to find more such people and change them.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Dec 2010 01:15

Our gobermund has made INACTION a way of governance, the said minister's outburst does not come as a surprise to me in fact the idea of Azadi being given to 'Kashmir' is not bad after all for the $hit has hit the fan and the mess is affecting the lives of the public in Jammu and Laddakh as that is the path of the 'least' resistance as far as Trishankus in Parliament are concerned.
Finally the fact that one can openly ask for Azadi in India and still get away with it will only embolden the separatists and insurgents across the country and 'dhakkan' Abhishek Singhvi says it's his personal opinion onlee, how about I call him a mofo after all it's a personal opinion onlee.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 07 Dec 2010 06:33

ramana wrote:During the weekend met an older NRI in Silo con Valley. He is retired now and travels back and forth to desh. He was advocating giving J&K to TSP and made comaprisons with Nizam's Hyderabad and Junagadh etc. And talked about sweep of History which shows Kashmir is part of Islamic Middle East.

So gave him the full BRF treatment and first demolished his analogues to Hyderabad and Junagadh. Next told him about the conditions for plebiscite and how they were irrelevant now due to the non-fullfillment of the conditions. Told him about Nazariye Paksitan and how it has radicalized Pakistan and that is cruel to hand over the delicate and sensitive Kashmiris to the fundamentalized killers. And then there are the Wahabandi vs Shia issues. And even KSA seeks India friendship now.......

Ramana ji, that is very good what you did.Individuals abroad are so ill-informed of homeland realities.In the end they come back to settle down and if they are so confused,someone has to clear that confusion.I am fortunate to have found BRF before retirement itself.Was so out of touch with whats happening back home, but BRF got me back on line.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Dec 2010 06:47

sanjeevpunj wrote:Ramana ji, that is very good what you did.Individuals abroad are so ill-informed of homeland realities. In the end they come back to settle down and if they are so confused,someone has to clear that confusion. I am fortunate to have found BRF before retirement itself.Was so out of touch with whats happening back home, but BRF got me back on line.

Confused does not have to be individuals abroad. They are in abundance back home as well. FYI

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Dec 2010 23:04

ramana wrote:During the weekend met an older NRI in Silo con Valley. He is retired now and travels back and forth to desh. He was advocating giving J&K to TSP and made comaprisons with Nizam's Hyderabad and Junagadh etc. And talked about sweep of History which shows Kashmir is part of Islamic Middle East.

So gave him the full BRF treatment and first demolished his analogues to Hyderabad and Junagadh.

What is the age group of this person If I may ask.
There is a certain group under one age groups who have acheieved the best in the world/west and they feel maganimous.
They may not realize the potential violence due to change in border. They also have lost their Kashmir Hindu heritage connection.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 08 Dec 2010 00:45

Brihaspatiji,

What do you mean by "it" ? Can TSP, if it attacks first, conquer Bharat the way you propose we should conquer TSP ? Or will it be that we will still prevail over them but at a far greater cost ?

Is'nt the situation kind of analogous to Germany-USSR in WW-II ? Had USSR attacked first, they would have decisively taken care of Germany in a few months. But since Germany attacked first, USSR faced grievious losses before winning finally...What do you think ?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 08 Dec 2010 02:06

ramana:

I have had the same experience as you, even more so. Even some retd air force and army officers tell me the same. The worst & most humilaiting experience being when I was single handely taking on Pakis (including Hussein Haqqani), NRIs who think like this, and of course KMs, at a meeting, and got mocked at in return, with the final kick on my leg being an Indian "South Asian studies" prof, telling me that I was a "Hindu Taliban", and & retd Indian army officer (whose wife is a K Pandit) tell me that I should keep my mouth shut and let these people who want to bring peace do their job instead of fanatsizing about hitting TSP.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Dec 2010 02:14

CRamS wrote:ramana:

I have had the same experience as you, even more so. Even some retd air force and army officers tell me the same. The worst & most humilaiting experience

Conclusion is that a small group of Indians will decide the fate of India which is similar to what happened during partition in 1947.
In 1947 not more than 1000 people in INC decided to agree to partition and the India s fate was sealed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2010 02:22

The person is retired and had the best of the Indian and US education and employment. Because of his educational background he was taking a grand sweep of history a la Discovery of India/Glimpses of World History type of discourse. I think he reflects the post-Independence generation that was carried away by the Naya Daur type of rhetoric.

However to his credit he did agree in the end that my exposition had credibility. So I think he was product of his generation.

What is needed is to create short introduction in order to give the elevator speech (no more than 5 mins) that can convey the ideas and let them mull over by sparking their dormant thinking process.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 08 Dec 2010 05:04

Ramana Garu - if you find time can you put your interaction in a generalised q&a format? it will be useful to all of us

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 08 Dec 2010 06:17

suryag wrote:Ramana Garu - if you find time can you put your interaction in a generalised q&a format? it will be useful to all of us

+1

We need a thread/forum for concise 'articles' by grand mullahs on such topics. BRF is a vast treasure trove of information,it would probably take a person an entire lifetime to go through every thread.e-books by some of our esteemed members have been immensely helpful, but we do need 'easy-to-find' comprehensive yet concise posts that can be helpful in engaging WKKs and their likes. Just my 2 cents.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Dec 2010 08:38

CRamS wrote:. . ., and & retd Indian army officer (whose wife is a K Pandit) tell me that I should keep my mouth shut and let these people who want to bring peace do their job instead of fantasizing about hitting TSP.

There are three parts to the above, CRamS.

One, the IA officer. You did not mention if he was also a Kashmiri (aside his wife). We have seen quite a few Kashmiri Hindus subscribe to Azaadi on the TV channels. From Maharajah Hari Singh downwards, I have found some of them to be confused and visionless.

The second part, about 'hitting' Pakistan. More than likely, he was referring to military action and military action alone as a form of retribution and hence his opposition.

The third part is that your experience (and Ramana's experience as well as my own) shows that many Indians are unaware of the situation. At every opportunity, we must moderately enlighten them !

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Dec 2010 11:35

Understanding what Young Kashmiris Want - Nirupama Subramanian
It seems that Ms. Niruapama Subramanian, who used to report for The Hindu from Islamabad, has taken over Praveen Swami's position after he moved over to London.

In the 2001 census, 64 per cent of the population in the Valley was under the age of 30. The projection for 2011 is 66 per cent, which may mean nearly 700,000 people between the ages of 18 and 30. From policemen to policy wonks and politicians, everyone is talking about Kashmir's problematic “youth bulge.”

As many as 50 per cent in the 18-30 age group of this bulge are unemployed despite having high levels of education. According to one estimate, Kashmir has 6,000 unemployed doctors and 2,000 unemployed bio-technologists. Over 78,000 people in the 18-25 age group have some kind of computer education but most of them have no jobs. Underemployment is common.

Despite the antipathy towards India, government jobs remain the only kind that the Kashmiri youth want, simply because they promise a paycheque at the end of the month, come what may. Even in a village like Palhalan in Baramulla district, infamous in the 1990s as a militant stronghold and a hub of this summer's azadi protests, people complain that they are still being punished by being “banned” from government jobs.

Yet, as the Centre and the State government discovered earlier this year, there is no easy or simple correlation between jobs and resolving the demand for azadi that resounded in the Valley this summer.

“Did you hear anyone raising slogans on the streets that they want jobs? Our aspirations are entirely political, it is not an economic issue or a social issue,” said Tawqeer Hussain, a post-graduate journalism student at the Islamic University of Science and Technology in Avantipora, 25 km outside Srinagar.

Azadi is what youngsters want to talk about, not jobs. “India wants to own us,” said Saeed Sarmad, a 21-year-old B. Tech student at the same university, “but the problem is we don't want to be part of it, we have never been a part of it. We want recognition of our own identity. We want azadi”.

The small built and delicate-looking computer science student was not a stone-thrower. “I am a coward; I can't go out and face bullets,” he said when I met him and his friends at the scenic hillside campus of the university. He was not lacking in confidence, though. He told me Kashmir would win its azadi as early as “next year.”

Another student, Anees Zargad, was pinning his hopes on the planned American pullout from Afghanistan next year. “As everyone knows, the route to Afghanistan lies through Kashmir,” he repeated the line fashionable with thinktankistas, as we sat talking about azadi in a cold classroom. “Maybe it will trigger developments that will help us achieve our goals.”

In Palhalan, notwithstanding its craving for government jobs, the group of villagers I spoke to said “the real issue is azadi.” One young man, who had a post-graduate degree, simply said: “Azadi”, before pedalling away on his bicycle.

To most young Kashmiris, however, azadi has no meaning other than freedom — from India, and from Pakistan too. Pakistan does not have the resonance for Kashmiris that it had just a few years ago. The alarming levels of terrorism-induced instability in Pakistan combined with the painful memories of militancy in Kashmir — for which Kashmiris blame Pakistan — have served to make Pakistan a “non-option” for the Kashmiri Gen X. Say Pakistan and one common reaction is: “From the frying pan to the fire?”

But what azadi actually means beyond “freedom” is not always clear to everyone, and perhaps this is where an opportunity still remains for building bridges with Kashmir. A start, said IUST Vice-Chancellor Siddiq Wahid, can be made by approaching the idea differently.

“Rather than ask what azadi is, ask what azadi is not. Young Kashmiris understand better what the absence of azadi means,” said Dr. Wahid.

For Kashmiri youth, their lack of freedom hangs heavy in leading their lives in the shadow of a heavy military presence. “All my life, I have known only guns, bullets, curfews, checkposts. Mine is the fourth generation of Kashmiris living in this uncertainty. I don't want to pass this on to the fifth,” said Tawqueer.

To think that a jobs package can resolve the issues raised by this summer's azadi agitation is “avoiding” the issue, he said. Even the neat young people at the telecom back office in Rangreth, hired after a discreet screening of their political views during the final interview stage, comfortable in their brand new office and excited about their jobs with a big Indian company, say this.

“Giving people jobs is a step,” said one of them, “but it cannot be a solution.”

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Dec 2010 11:42

^^^

How can jobs be created in the valley when the laws of the state prohibilt a non kashmeri from investing and owning property in the state.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Dec 2010 11:44

American propaganda is reaching K

Another student, Anees Zargad, was pinning his hopes on the planned American pullout from Afghanistan next year. “As everyone knows, the route to Afghanistan lies through Kashmir,” he repeated the line fashionable with thinktankistas, as we sat talking about azadi in a cold classroom. “Maybe it will trigger developments that will help us achieve our goals.”

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Dec 2010 12:46

Pratyush wrote:^^^
How can jobs be created in the valley . . .

But, Kashmiris do not want jobs. They want the elusive azaadi, whatever that might mean.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 08 Dec 2010 17:31

Aaj Azaadi, Kal barbaadi.This is how change occurs.They are so short sighted, they ask for Azaadi from the country that has sustained them. India spends crores in building and maintaining the civic infrastructure in Kashmir.Pakistan must have spent crores in trying to demolish that infrastructure.These Kashmiris are totally lost.Walk out of India, the devil or the deep blue sea is waiting.Stay in India and Pakistan will keep sending more terrorists.They are faced with a difficult choice, lets hope they make the right one.The third choice and the right one of course is sit back and enjoy India's hospitality for years to come.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Dec 2010 17:35

SSridhar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:^^^
How can jobs be created in the valley . . .
But, Kashmiris do not want jobs. They want the elusive azaadi, whatever that might mean.

azadi means the right to receive pathan love - baramulla style, at their own leisure
it might almost be amusing to give them azadi, have them be royally canadian vijja'ed by the paks and then liberate them again once pak dissolves

although dragon will undoubtedly make a grab in between...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Dec 2010 17:39

They will not be speaking of Azadi if the Idiots at home had not been stocking the fires. In order to prove the liberalism and open mindedness.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 08 Dec 2010 18:38

God forbid but if Azadi becomes true....Just seal the friggin borders between Valley and Jammu...let Kashmiris rot with Pakis and Chinese....no trade...no freebies...no joint administration....it makes any Indian angry that Kashmir Valley is draining India's exchequer from social development programs to Defense expenditures from 1947 to till date....they've become like piles in the a55..lets get rid of 'em..

I've come across people who think on similar lines....I was left with no answers...some times I get convinced when confronted with such arguments..is there an analysis or answer which is satisfying and not satisficing?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 08 Dec 2010 23:49

This talk of "azaadi" has made kashmir the most pampered state in India with per capita spend on development activities 11 times the national average...

Naturally they want this dole to continue ... and indeed be enhanced. The descendants of the former mughal salariat instead make noises about harit pradesh and whatnot...

A State of the capital 'S' variety cannot "humour" dissidence no matter how "democratic" or "secular" it is.

the birthplace of trika shaivism is pretty much an integral part of India.

As is any place where India invests blood and treasure for over sixty years...

As is any place within the union of India which holds a large chunk of its fresh water resources

As is any place which is a gateway to central asia

I am not surprised that a "successful" NRI doesn't realize that India is a Union with federal characteristics and not a Federation with Unitary characteristics.

states (with a small 's' this time) once part of the Indian Union don't get to secede. period.

Any Army officer saying otherwise retd or not is in direct contravention of the phucking oath he took to defend the integrity of the UNION of India.

In any case a few Pandits parroting "azaadi" rhetoric is hardly new or surprising. Some of them seek to "invert" the A-word to get concessions of their own and some others suffer from the classic and now much understood stockholm syndrome...

The descendants of a number of partition families in dilli and kolkata show a similar affliction. Indeed the greatest Indian secularists are sometimes dilli punjabis in addition to former east bangaalis and of course post-moplah riot malayalees.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2010 00:07

D Roy wrote:
I am not surprised that a "successful" NRI doesn't realize that India is a Union with federal characteristics and not a Federation with Unitary characteristics.

states (with a small 's' this time) once part of the Indian Union don't get to secede. period.

The descendants of a number of partition families in dilli and kolkata show a similar affliction. Indeed the greatest Indian secularists are sometimes dilli punjabis in addition to former east bangaalis and of course post-moplah riot malayalees.

All these are stockholm syndrome and 40 years news propaganda.
In the last 50 years the news of
Partition violence has been suppressed.
Violence against Hindus in Pakistan has been suppressed.
Violence against Hindu pandits and destruction of Hindu temples in J&K has been suppressed.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 09 Dec 2010 02:50

Why have not the nationalist politicians made an issue of over 200 temples destroyed in J&K by the kashmiri islamists? Indian people need to know this.

James B · Post by **James B** » 09 Dec 2010 02:54

Counterpoint

A Question of Identity

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Dec 2010 08:58

Hey, what is the correct answer when Pakis bring up Junagarh?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Dec 2010 09:00

Kashmir Solution in sight: Chidambaram

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Kashm ... ram/722810

On the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Chidambaram said a proposal to amend it was under consideration.

Expressing confidence in the progress being made by the interlocutors, Chidambaram said Kashmir was a political issue for which a political solution must be found but peace and good governance were pre-requisites to achieve the goal.

On the recent unrest in the Valley, he said while violence perpetrated by militants must be dealt with in a “strong and resolute manner”, the violence witnessed during protests by residents required “deft and sensitive handling”.

The Minister claimed after the recent eight-point plan for Jammu & Kashmir was announced, there had been considerable improvement in the situation. Chidambaram, however, conceded that this process needed to be strengthened with space for peaceful protests, reduction in the visible presence of security forces and delivery on the ground.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Dec 2010 09:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:Hey, what is the correct answer when Pakis bring up Junagarh?

Tell them that every Pakis statement against India is the truth and us SDREs are the most vile creatures on the Planet. With a straight face. And then tell them to go **** your selves or go to hell.

Reason, If you debate the Paki with logic they will just deny you point and refuse to except it. So just tell them to live with it.

JMT onlee.........