Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Dec 2010 09:08

rohitvats wrote:IMO, in case of India-Pakistan shooting match, the 750kms is a good enough range. For a simple reason that TSPN plus the TSPAF Naval strike fighters have a very limited capability from ASW perspective. How does one hunt a lone SSBN like Arihant - it could be anywhere in the big wide Arabian Sea....I think it is good capability for starters.

Don't expect only the Pakis to be hunting the IN sub. To save the Paki H&D, all sorts of other, far more powerful friends and allies could also be hunting it.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Dec 2010 11:46

Any news about A-II+ test? It was scheduled to be launched any time after 9:00 AM..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2010 12:06

hope its launched at night amid heavy rains - just like PSLV was once. lizard wont ask for a good time before starting things...

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 09 Dec 2010 12:16

Actually, the area will be less - they need to go approx 400 out. That reduces the search area considerably.

However, as has already been stated, it will give us operational exp. for the next missile and help establish procedures and protocols.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 09 Dec 2010 14:01

Great read provided by Arun S Vishwakarma with all sorts of analysis : Range, payload

Shourya and Sagarika is a new common missile that can be launched from multiple platforms, i.e. ground, submarine and mobile launcher. The naval version is called Sagarika, while the land based version is called Shourya.

India's Multifunction Missile for Credible Deterrent

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Dec 2010 14:22

Is the K 15 the logical evolution of the thought process which lead to the Prithvi missile?

koti · Post by **koti** » 09 Dec 2010 14:58

^^ Can you elaborate sir?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Dec 2010 15:16

The Prithvi as a weapon is a storable propelent liquid fuel weapon with a variable trajectory & re entry profiles making interceptions difficult for ABM systems. It has multiple varients.

Even if discribed as a tactical balistic missile. The weapon can have strategic applications WRT TSP.

The accuracy is excellent with multiple types of wharheads that can be deployed by the Missile.

K 15 if seen from that light seems to be an evolution of the concept and thoughts which went into the Prithvi system.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 09 Dec 2010 15:34

Katare wrote: Parabola is depressed trajectory which allows late detection and lower reentry temp/time.

Sirji, I thought parabola is a high altitude conical shaped trajectory... Wiki also says same thing or as i understand... late detection resulting from depressed trajectory is means a flatter trajectory, as i understand... Can you please help in enlightening me where I am wrong?

koti · Post by **koti** » 09 Dec 2010 16:14

I am not sure if that could be the case sir.
Prithvi was primarily deployed as a strategic missile against TSP. Because of its range, it is often located very close to borders and kept highly mobile to prevent any attack on its location.

Shaurya on the other hand is a canister based solid propellant missile. Its canisterization makes it highly immune to first strike(Conditions Apply).
This makes it a very desirable platform to be deployed in the relevant airbases or silos at calculated locations.

Regarding the trajectory, the flight profile makes it very difficult to intercept. The accuracy gives it the power to be used for tactical strikes.
I would more likely compare Shaurya to Iskander then to Prithvi.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 09 Dec 2010 16:15

Just one thing,

Iskander is actually the name of the launch system,

which can deploy both the SS-26 stone ( which is what we are comparing to the Shaurya) and a cruise missile designated the R-500.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 09 Dec 2010 16:24

koti wrote: Shaurya on the other hand is a canister based solid propellant missile. Its canisterization makes it highly immune to first strike(Conditions Apply).
This makes it a very desirable platform to be deployed in the relevant airbases or silos at calculated locations.

Infact I believe being canisterized makes it more suitable for dispersion using mobile launchers. Since for Shaurya we do not require the leadtime associated with liquid fueled Prithvi

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Dec 2010 16:37

Guys,

The liquid fueled Prithvi that is is unsuitable for a quick use is an urban legend.

IIRC, Prithvi once fueled can be stored that way for upto 5 years in a ready to use configuration. The shelf life of unfuleled Prithvi,again IIRC is 25 years.

The canisterised K 15 is an advantage that it can simply go from the production plant to the user as is and the fueling infrastructure is not needed. There by making the missile batteries footprint smaller.

koti · Post by **koti** » 09 Dec 2010 16:37

Infact I believe being canisterized makes it more suitable for dispersion using mobile launchers. Since for Shaurya we do not require the leadtime associated with liquid fueled Prithvi

The lead time can be avoided by every solid propellant system. Canisterization I believe has more to do with Storage in a deployed form them making it mobile.

koti · Post by **koti** » 09 Dec 2010 16:46

When we talk about intercepting a tactical BM coming ahead at 8-12 mach, aren't we going off-beat with the current possibilities?

Tactical itself means the targets would be forward field formations, comm centers or Airbases at max(Tactical BM targets not tactical CM targets).

Where as any ABM deployment would necessarily be to guard some thing like a Nuclear reactor or a City. I don't think any modern ADGES has employed ABM capability for Tactical assets.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Dec 2010 19:54

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2010/12/b ... up-to.html

India set to launch Agni-II Prime (On Friday)

The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) scientists, engineers and system specialists have begun the last-minute preparations for the launch of the much-awaited Agni-II Prime missile from Wheeler Island.
The missile's maiden test is now expected on Friday, December 10 from the Interim Test Range. The launch, which was originally scheduled for today (December 9), had to be postponed by one day due to inclement weather and continuous rain that hit the Orissa coast, due to depression.

Sources confirm that the flight readiness review (FRR) meeting was held on December 8 and the crucial Range Integration Checks (RIC) are being held on December 9. "If the weather holds back, then we are sure for a launch tomorrow. The Met department says that it will be overcast for the next 24 hours with the possibility of slight drizzle. Though Agni-II Prime is an all-weather missile, we are keen to test it for the first time under normal circumstances so that we get every minute data during the launch accurately," an official said.

While this piece is being pushed to the blogspace, the missile is already shifted to the launch pad with the launch managers engrossed in a series of internal and external checks.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Dec 2010 20:39

So the offical designation is Agni-II Prime..
Even the earlier reports by him and this morning report by Netindia has used the designation as “Agni-II Prime”
.. I guess this is going to be the "Prime" varient of Agni-II, and hence the name..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Dec 2010 20:47

Just how many SDRE 2000 Km range Agnis have to be tested before the TFTA ICBM is announced. I mean I was practially a todler when the first one was tested. Had I been married at the right time insted of fooling arround on BRF. Would have had one of my own.

Sorry just could not resist that one

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Dec 2010 21:11

we will keep launching until we get it right and then some more
everytime we do, we learn things - i am sure that we have had many fewer launches than the USA and USSR in order to develop the same technology
and it gives tremendous khujli-al-khas to certain neighbours
who are prone to shooting off one of their own in retalliation
and use up their green paint stock

ashokpachori · Post by **ashokpachori** » 09 Dec 2010 23:56

RKumar wrote:Great read provided by Arun S Vishwakarma with all sorts of analysis : Range, payload

India's Multifunction Missile for Credible Deterrent

ASV´s range versus payload qualification/diagram does not do any justice, it seems like its done on 19.00 dollar simulation tool.

For an SRBM, halving the payload increases its range by 150%. However, the lighter warhead reduces the military effectiveness of the missile, especially if the warhead contains conventional high-explosives. This method has been used by Egypt, Iraq, and North Korea to increase the range of their Scud-derived SRBMs. For ballistic missiles with ranges of greater than 1,000 km, however, halving the payload increases the range only by some 20%.

http://www.missilethreat.com/overview/p ... efault.asp

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 10 Dec 2010 00:08

Lalmohan wrote: and it gives tremendous khujli-al-khas to certain neighbours
who are prone to shooting off one of their own in retalliation

On comparing A2+ and A2 in laymans terms, what is observable is that the former seem to have an elongated RV. A2+ has been known to have a more precise and better manuverable RV specifically designed to avoid BMD. Maybe Gurus can explain better the observable difference between A2 and A2+

Also kindly pardon my ignorance but why do we not see the stage seperation jettisioning part (I dont know the name

) in A2+. It just looks like a single stage Rocket + RV.

Agni-2 Prime

Agni-2

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 10 Dec 2010 00:16

"On camparing A2 and A2+ in laymans terms, what is observable .."

What would be the difference between Agni 2AT( last tested in Aug/2004) and Agni 2 prime? And what is the state of the former, tech demonstrator for the time being?

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Dec 2010 00:27

Yeah the 'vented inter-stage' is gone along with the tail fins (explains the news about flex nozzle being used in 1st stage) , this is a good development helps in canisterising as well as adaptation for submarine use.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 10 Dec 2010 00:40

High resolution pics of A2P-01

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... +Karan.jpg

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 10 Dec 2010 00:55

ah ha.... ultra cool

second stage looks like made out of composites. Also the RV design is now in sync with A3.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 01:56

Narad, The vented interstage is needed to ensure there are pressure relief openings for the separation system. Elimination means they are using a different stage separation system which does not build up that much pressure. Maybe shaped charge for cutting the metal forward of the F/S dome. Also could be faster S/S motor which will obviate the need for venting. Flare in the s/s motor is an adapter and pseudo-interstage. So there is dia change between the f/s and s/s. If they kept the s/s dia same it will give even more range. Must have been a trade-off.

The F/S lack of fins means the old SLV F/S stage is not being used anymore. And control is via thrust vectoring with flex nozzle.

The more interesting is the payload. It doesn't have those canards. And yet is stated to be more manouvering and accurate. So most likely its based on jets. Same as the AIII. All those patches are antennas for the test body. Also its higher beta with the clean lines. Low beta means could slow down and become vulnerable.

I would like to know the total thow weight if its different than the AIII which was 1.5 tonne.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Dec 2010 03:10

This is a 100% brand new missile- the A2 name is clearly only to convey that it is an upgrade. Smart.

The TEL looks new as well. One can imagine a canister in future.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 10 Dec 2010 04:11

Missile might be new I (and dare I say awesome) but more importantly is the pathaki inside better? It's quite obvious that the RV appears to be shorter and smaller than its predecessor. I know that the BR Forum had a meltdown on more testing and the inadequacy of nuclear warheads but can experts read into the tea leaves based on configuration? To me anyways, a layperson, I'm guessing some nuclear scientists have been busy in the last 12 years.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 10 Dec 2010 04:35

its a 3200km range with a throw weight of 1 tonne

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 04:45

Is that what gets released?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 10 Dec 2010 05:01

for press consumption

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 05:04

No-no. What gets released from the vehicle!

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 10 Dec 2010 05:09

that was funny

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Dec 2010 05:16

India Requests GPS-Guided “Cans of Whup-Ass” AND GET's IT

..........
Dec 8/10: Textron Systems Corp. in Wilmington, MA receives a $257.7 million contract to provide 512 sensor-fuzed weapon/ CBU-105 production units, and 44 training units to India. At this time, $126.3 million has been committed. The AAC/EBJK at Eglin Air Force Base, FK manages the contract on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale customer (FA8682-11-C-0044).
...........

They keep wondering what aircraft will the IAF use it on. JAG's & Mirages DUH

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Dec 2010 05:21

rohitvats wrote:^^^In case of IA, the Akash SAM will replace the SA-6 being held in two Kvadrat Groups in the ADA Corps. Each such Group consists of 4 batteries. AFAIK, both these groups are with one (I) AD Brigade.

...

Just looked up SIPRI database to see what the total order for the SA-6 were.

25 Kvadrat 2K12/SA-6A SAM systems were procured in 1974 with deliveries taking place between 1977-1979. It is not clear if the 25 systems translates to 25 batteries. If it does translate to 25 batteries then we are looking at 12 batteries per SA-6A SAM Group (two Groups in existence). This is similar to what PC Jain mentioned in that one Akash IA regiment is equivalent to 6 IAF squadrons (each with 2 batteries each makes for a total of 12 batteries).

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 10 Dec 2010 06:11

Are we sure we are looking at two stage missle?

Indian scientists were always toying with the idea of hybrid propellants.

Anyone knows if ths is the case. This would explain the new second stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_rocket

Hybrid rockets exhibit advantages over both liquid rockets and solid rockets especially in terms of simplicity, safety, and cost.[2] Because it is nearly impossible for the fuel and oxidizer to be mixed intimately (being different states of matter), hybrid rockets tend to fail more benignly than liquids or solids. Like liquid rockets and unlike solid rockets they can be shut down easily and are simply throttle-able

The throttleable part explains the abscence of control vanes as in the original A2

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 10 Dec 2010 06:29

India Buys Sensor-Fuzed Weapon

India Buys Sensor-Fuzed Weapon
Dec 9, 2010
By Robert Wall [ [email protected] ]
LONDON

Two years after the Pentagon first highlighted Indian interest in buying the Textron CBU-105 Sensor-Fuzed Weapon, the first production contract has now been awarded for the deal.

India will receive 512 CBU-105s along with 44 training units under a $257.7 million deal, the Pentagon says. An initial $126 million has been obligated.

The purchase is slightly greater than first signaled two years ago when the Pentagon notified Congress of the potential foreign military sale, which at the time covered 510 CBU-105s and test assets.

The version India is buying uses the Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispenser.

Although the Oslo Treaty bars the sale of cluster bombs, SFW has been excluded due to its high detonation rate, self-destruct mechanism if no target is detected and the fact that batteries in the duds quickly expire so the bomblets do not explode after the fact.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 10 Dec 2010 06:55

dinesha wrote:High resolution pics of A2P-01

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... +Karan.jpg

A2P looks neat, but it is no way an Agni-2, SDRE Indians have a new missile and they have named it Agni-2AT in a sneaky manner. The missile is a new one and the launcher is also a new one. The fins of both stages are missing. The separation logic has changed and the warhead is different and second stage is completely different. The range is different.

gurus,

How come none of the other missiles like Minutemen, SS-19 or SS-18 don't use the vented interstage used by normal A-2. What are advantages or disadvantages of such a system. i have seen vented interstage in some old soviet ICBM's like SS-13 and SS-11.

Why are we moving away from vented interstage?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 07:17

Venting is needed for the separation charge. most likely they have mastered the small separation charges and dont need the venting.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2010 07:18

dinesha wrote:High resolution pics of A2P-01

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... +Karan.jpg

I can see Tessymol in the pic