Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 22:26

^^^^The dimensions don't match physics.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Dec 2010 23:05

ramana wrote: Kanson, I wanted to know the released/deployed weight of the payload if its given anywhere. AIII was stated to be 1.5 tonnes.

I think, it was also posted here, give me some time i will scour it from net. Currently i'm only lucky enough to find this...

http://defense-update.com/wp/20101210_agni-ii-plus.html

This model has a maximum range of 3,000 km, 20% beyond the current range of the Agni II Prime (2000-2500 km), while carrying a heavier warhead.

Another Agni II Prime is scheduled for launch next month,

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Dec 2010 23:10

Thanks srai. Is that contain CL-20 explosive? I doubt that, but mine could be outdated.

Thanks, ashokpachori.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 10 Dec 2010 23:20

http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/10/india%e2 ... fails.html

Looks like our friends love to publisize our failures, not realizing they make us try that much harder for success

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2010 23:24

Yes its true and has been posted in this very page! And the discussion is based on that.

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 10 Dec 2010 23:33

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Ind ... %3A38%3A39

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 11 Dec 2010 00:39

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/10/india%e2 ... fails.html

Looks like our friends love to publisize our failures, not realizing they make us try that much harder for success

I didn't see any publicity in there... Seems like regular news to me, much like other CONIN & OCONIN pres reports!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 11 Dec 2010 01:13

Rupesh wrote:we can expect A-V to get delayed.. I dont think they will test A-V until AII-Prime, AIII etc validates the new stuff they are planning ( CT Could AII Prime be a trial version of A-V /CT )

I don't think the schedule of A-V and A-II Prime are co-related. @ different teams have developed this missile and A-V work has been on for quite some time. Perhaps some extra checks would be made but nothing to significantly delay A-V.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2010 01:23

Nihat, Its interesting that quite few sub-systems were still validated in this flight. Most likely there was a simple problem. ~ 70% launch problems are due to electrical issues.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Dec 2010 01:45

-had a structural oscillation immediately after the lift-off
-RLG-the platform experienced a trajectory deviation immediately after the lift
- "The propulsion system worked perfectly, but we observed some stability issues to the missile,"

20% beyond the current range of the Agni II Prime (2000-2500 km), while carrying a heavier warhead.

any relationship here?

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 11 Dec 2010 02:31

Ramanaji,

If it is again due to a component quality control problem, that will be really worrying: after the two A-II failures in 2009, we should have instituted rigorous QC procedures atall stages, right ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2010 02:40

lets see what the issue is. They want two-three days.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Dec 2010 02:55

I wonder if a 'Agni-I Prime' will follow now

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 11 Dec 2010 03:07

Hi C.Alpert

Eric Leiderman wrote:
http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/10/india%e2 ... fails.html

Looks like our friends love to publisize our failures, not realizing they make us try that much harder for success

I didn't see any publicity in there... Seems like regular news to me, much like other CONIN & OCONIN pres reports!You are right publisize was the wrong word to use, what was implied was the speed at which the report was published
It was not out on any mainstream indian media. So Kudos to them on speed <(motive) thats another topic>

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2010 08:07

what exactly are the challenges in going for all-composite missile ? (like trident?) is the 1st stage as composite more challenging than upper stages?

if we can do it, Agni1 and Shourya could be composite too one day?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Dec 2010 08:29

Agni-2 Prime
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... +Karan.jpg

Agni-3
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 787809.JPG

a)In Agni-3, fairing between RV(represented in black color) and the missile body(represented in white color) is represented in reddish brown color.

Similarly, in Agni-2 Prime, a section between RV(black color) and the missile body(white color) is represented in the same color format of reddish brown color.

What this color, reddish brown represents here?

b) Orange separator line in white base is as to identify the start and end of the missile engine. Remaining portion below the second Orange line is the nozzle section. One can see this marking in Prithvi/Dhanush, Agni-I, Agni-II, Agni-III missile testing. Why this is marked differently in Agni-II Prime?

As Singha mentioned, a "ring" appears between letter I and N in the missile body, there are two orange lines, one just above the bottom of the missile and another orange line just above the "ring".

If we apply the understanding from the existing color coding to this...is that means there are two different stages attached at the "ring" and the orange line above the ring represents the commencement of nozzle section ?

Is that means, Agni-II Prime has 3 stages and 3rd stage is represented in Reddish brown color format?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 11 Dec 2010 08:36

I wanted to know the released/deployed weight of the payload if its given anywhere. AIII was stated to be 1.5 tonnes.

This report states that the A-II prime can carry n-warhead of 1 ton, the total payload capability could be much more than 1500 Kgs.

Agni-II Prime launch fails
T.S. Subramanian & Y. Mallikarju
http://www.hindu.com/2010/12/11/stories ... 581500.htm

CHENNAI: The maiden launch of the Agni-II Prime missile from the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast, on Friday failed.

Within moments of takeoff from a specially designed truck at 10.05 a.m., the missile plunged into the Bay of Bengal following a deviation in its trajectory. As the consoles in the Block House showed that the mission failed, gloom engulfed missile technologists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The two-stage, surface-to-surface missile has a range of about 2,500 km. The 17-tonne missile is 20 metres long, capable of carrying nuclear warheads of one tonne.

The DRDO originally planned to test-fire Agni-II Prime on Thursday. But rain off the State's coast forced it to put off the launch.

V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, told The Hindu: “During the liftoff, a control problem could have occurred.” He said the failure was nothing unusual. “We have to check many things. We have to check whether there was any component failure,” said Dr. Saraswat, who is also DRDO Director-General and missile technologist himself.

The DRDO had built Agni-II Prime, earlier called Agni-II+, to fill the gap in the range between Agni-II and Agni-III. While Agni-II has a range of more than 2,000 km, Agni-III can target places more than 3,000 km away. All the three were strategic missiles, capable of carrying nuclear warheads.

Agni-II Prime was an improved version of Agni-II, boasting several new technologies. While both stages of Agni-II were made of metal casing, the second stage of Agni-II Prime was made of fibre reinforced plastic (FRP), or composite casing. The FRP reduced the missile's structural weight, enabling it to carry more propellants, and to have a better range than Agni-II's.

Agni-II Prime also had a better stage separation system, efficient propulsion, high-energy propellants, more efficient batteries to provide better power supply and sophisticated retro rockets. It had a good configuration which meant the user (the Army) could move it around easily.

Interceptor missile

test soon

Meanwhile, the DRDO is preparing to launch an interceptor missile from the Wheeler Island between December 18 and 20. It will intercept in mid-flight another ballistic missile that takes off from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, near Balasore, also off Orissa. The interception will take place at an altitude of 15 km, in what is called the endo-atmosphere

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Dec 2010 08:38

Singha wrote:what exactly are the challenges in going for all-composite missile ? (like trident?) is the 1st stage as composite more challenging than upper stages?

if we can do it, Agni1 and Shourya could be composite too one day?

It is preferred to have the upper stages at light as possible, to increase the range & payload. Even the fuels used in upper stages are of low density. While the first stage will contain a mixture of high density solid materials, High altitude motors are designed differently to have High Isp and low density fuels.

Check the GSLV, upper stage will be cryogenic(high Isp, low density), lower one will be of solid fuel.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Dec 2010 08:47

BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd to get integration complex soon
Machinist

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Dec 2010 09:59

^^^

Does the above news means that the Missile will be fabricated in 3 seperate locations in country.

1) Trivendrun
2) Haydrabad
3) Pilani

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2010 10:05

maybe the A2-P is 2 stage only as officially given but the 2nd orange line might indicate the start of a different type/density of solid fuel as by then the lower atmosphere would be crossed...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Dec 2010 11:09

The ring like thing can be seen even on Agni-3 between D and I and A-2P between I and N , probably these are welded part of the booster 1st stage.

A-2P looks to me like a 2 stage missile , the orange colour is used by Military/Civil for greater visibility , probably they may want to recover the composite stages once it falls into the sea and reuse it again or just study the effect.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 11 Dec 2010 11:21

Singha wrote:maybe the A2-P is 2 stage only as officially given but the 2nd orange line might indicate the start of a different type/density of solid fuel as by then the lower atmosphere would be crossed...

My understanding is that for each solid stage, the igniter is at the top end (as illustrated below). Separate rings of propellants of different types in the same stage (not sure whether it is done) and even if tried, would burn together. I am open to correction.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 12 Dec 2010 12:56

After Agni failure, DRDO braces for next mission
http://expressbuzz.com/nation/after-agn ... 30581.html

BALASORE: Despite yesterday’s failure of the maiden test of Agni-II + missile, the DRDO is planning to go ahead with their next mission, scheduled later this month. The scientists have started preparing for the development trial of an interceptor missile.

Defence sources said, the sophisticated advanced air defence (AAD) interceptor will be tested from the Wheelers Island either on December 18 or 19.

"Failure during the tests is nothing unusual. So why should we drop our next mission? The AAD test would be conducted as per the programme," said an official.

According to the programme, the interceptor missile will destroy an incoming hostile missile mid-flight over the Bay of Bengal. This experimentation will be to observe the operational effectiveness of the indigenously developed high-speed interceptor missile.

During the exercise, a Prithvi missile, modified to mimic a hostile ballistic missile with a range of over 300 km, will lift off from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur and it will be destroyed in the endo-atmospheric region (at an altitude of 15 km) by the interceptor fired from Wheelers Island off Dhamra coast a few seconds later,’’ said a defence scientist.

The scientists are working overtime to make the mission a success as earlier this year two consecutive attempts made to launch the interceptor had turned futile. During the March 14 attempt snags were detected in the fins of the AAD missile, next day the target missile deviated from the pre-coordinated trajectory for which the interceptor couldn’t get command to be fired.

India has a Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system capable of tracking and destroying hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth’s atmosphere. While two exo-atmospheric tests have been successfully carried out in 2006 and 2008, scientists are working overtime for the success of the fourth AAD test which will boost India and join the US, Russia and Israel in the very exclusive BMD club.

While the Prithvi is a single stage, surface-to-surface ballistic missile that uses liquid fuel, the AAD is a single stage anti-ballistic solid propellant powered missile. It is 7.5 metres in length.

Defence sources said, the exo-atmospheric has the capability similar to the Israeli Arrow-2 system and the endo-atmospheric is considered as similar to the American PAC-3 system in terms of range and altitude of interception. ‘’The DRDO would have two phases of the BMD systems. While the phase-I interceptors missiles, capable of neutralising 2,000-km range missiles will be ready for deployment by 2011 or 2012, the phase-II missiles which will look to thwart threats from missiles with ranges of up to 5,000 km, are expected to be ready in the next five years,’’ informed a defence official.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 12 Dec 2010 17:09

Work on BrahMos supersonic missile over, trials to wait

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Work-on-B ... 37497.aspx

Moscow. BrahMos Aerospace, an Indo-Russian joint venture, has completed the work on aerial and underwater versions of a supersonic cruise missile, but the test-fire of the two variants is held up for the time being in the absence of platforms for trials. The test-fire of underwater version of the missile will take place early next year while the trial of air-borne variant is likely to be held in 2012, BrahMos Aerospace said.

Alexander Leonov, Director General of NPO Mashinostroyenia which is the Russian partner of the joint venture, said work on both aerial and submarine versions of the missile has been completed and they are ready for trial.

He said BrahMos scientists are now waiting for the Su-30MKI aircraft to be provided by Indian Air Force to act as a platform for testing the aerial version while a specially designed submerged vehicle will be used for trial of the submarine version.

In the absence of a specially designed submarine to conduct the test, a submerged platform will be used for carrying out the trial of underwater version of the missile.

Marketing Director of Brahmos Praveen Pathak said IAF has already identified two Sukhoi 30 fighter jets for testing the aerial version, which is set to take place in 2012. He said induction of the missile into the IAF is likely to begin in 2013.

"As per our estimate, we will be able to complete by end of 2012 all the development trials of airbrone version and induction should start by 2013," Pathak told PTI.

Leonov said Indian Navy only wants to integrate the missile on Indian manufactured submarines, which is why test has to be carried out from a specially designed submerged vehicle.

"As far as I know the submarines where the missiles are likely to be integrated will be manufactured in India. The missile is ready for installations," he said.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 12 Dec 2010 22:39

Hi all ,

Is shourya missile officially acknowledged ???

In 2009 UPSC CIVIL PRELIMS paper....A question appeared which is ...

In the context of indian missiles...
1. Shouruya missile flies with more than 8 mach speed .
2. Its range is more than 1600 kms .

A. 1 & 2 r true 2. Both r false . etc ...

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 13 Dec 2010 09:41

chandanus wrote:Hi all ,

Is shourya missile officially acknowledged ???

In 2009 UPSC CIVIL PRELIMS paper....A question appeared which is ...

In the context of indian missiles...
1. Shouruya missile flies with more than 8 mach speed .
2. Its range is more than 1600 kms .

A. 1 & 2 r true 2. Both r false . etc ...

2. Both are false
The missile that files at speeds upto Mach 8 is BrahMos2
and Shourya missile has a range of 650kms
Source:Livefist

On second thoughts A. 1 & 2 r true might be the right answer, wikipedia says
The Shaurya missile (Sanskrit: Valour) is a canister launched hypersonic (Mach 8 )
It has a range of between 750 to 1900 km

Will bade bhais clear the confusion?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Dec 2010 14:24

Austin wrote:The ring like thing can be seen even on Agni-3 between D and I and A-2P between I and N , probably these are welded part of the booster 1st stage.

A-2P looks to me like a 2 stage missile , the orange colour is used by Military/Civil for greater visibility , probably they may want to recover the composite stages once it falls into the sea and reuse it again or just study the effect.

There is a difference between joint and a ring. In Agni-3 it is a joint as you can see it in S200 motor.

In Agni-2P, are you seeing a joint of just two surfaces or a ring between two surfaces ? Take a relook.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Dec 2010 15:06

dinesha wrote:Image analysis for Dimension Estimation of Agni-II prime
Taking the Dia of first stage as 1.3 mts as reported in Hindu

From my rough calculation, section painted white is 11+ m. Section painted red appraoches 6 m. and RV 2+ m.

So totally 11+, 6-, 2+ equals to ~ 20 m as reported.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Dec 2010 15:09

Singha wrote:maybe the A2-P is 2 stage only as officially given but the 2nd orange line might indicate the start of a different type/density of solid fuel as by then the lower atmosphere would be crossed...

Don't know what purpose this solves. If these are part of a single motor in a typical fashion, I think, all of them are going to burn at the sametime.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2010 20:47

Kanson is that a bump on which "INDIA" is painted. I see a raised surface on which "I" is painted.

If so, that is the conduit for controlling the F/S TVC.

We can see a similar raised surface on the side of the red portion too.

The middle joint is intriguing. Is it a joint for the two sections that form the F/S? What I mean is the F/S casing is made of two segments which are joined together and the propellent grain is cast continuous?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2010 20:48

A wag said A2P is Agra to Peking!

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Dec 2010 21:31

India to boost its Akash missile arsenal
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 292241000/

NEW DELHI, Dec. 13 (UPI) -- Bharat Electronics expects to win around $3.3 billion worth of contracts for the surface-to-air Akash missile system in the next several months, a company official said.

The order from the Indian air force and the army could amount to around 300 of the defensive guided-missiles, P. C. Jain, general manager of BEL's military radar business unit, said.

"They are going to place another order for six squadrons shortly," said Jain.

A squadron consists of 48 missiles, a surveillance 3-D central acquisition radar, a tracking radar and a flight-control center. BEL, based in Bangalore, already has an order from the air force for two squadrons of Akash missiles.

Akash -- Sanskrit for "sky" -- is a medium-range system and a product of India's integrated missile development strategy that includes short-range and long-range missiles.

The Akash, developed jointly by the government's Defense Research and Development Organization, Bharat Dynamics and Bharat Electronics, can be fired from tracked and wheeled platforms and has a range of around 15 miles with a payload of up to 35 pounds.

The air force already had around 1,000 of the missiles and the army is in the process of finalizing the configuration of its version.

Last June, the army officially announced its intention to substantially boost its numbers or Akash missiles to replace its Russian SAM-6 Kvadrat air defense missile system. It could spend up to $2.8 billion on the Akash system, which would be positive to India's defense manufacturing base, a military official said at the time.

"In the next seven to eight years, close to 100 Indian industries will benefit from these projects," he said. "Project support for the services for these systems will be there for 25 years.

"It is a great wealth-generation opportunity, in addition to more jobs as a home-grown tactical missile system is finally getting on top in place of the French, Russian, British and Israeli systems. This will give DRDO the much-needed lift and the Indian industry know-how to manufacture complicated weapon systems."

Production of the Akash has been through a consortium set up in January 2008 by public sector companies Bharat Dynamics and Bharat Electronics. Other private sector firms include Larsen & Toubro, Tata Power, Walchand Industries and ECIL. But Bharat Dynamics is the main manufacturer of the solid-fuel, two-stage, ramjet missile.

India's strategy has been to develop indigenous missile systems but delays in manufacturing has caused supply problems.

The third-generation surface-to-surface NAG missile, with a 2.5-mile range, has been 20 years in development and is on the verge of entering production.

But in August, India announced it is considering buying thousands of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles, made by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, from the United States until the NAG is fully developed.

Defense Minister A. K. Antony told Parliament that a letter-of-request had been sent to the U.S. government for a direct foreign military sale of off-the-shelf Javelin missiles. Included in the letter was a transfer-of-technology request that could mean the man-portable Javelin is made under license in India.

Antony gave no indication of numbers of missiles needed, nor of numbers to be made in India. The Javelin order could run into the thousands until the first, vehicle-launched version of the NAG, meaning "snake" in Sanskrit, is inducted into the army in 2011.

India's missile program suffered a setback in September with a launch failure of the surface-to-surface Prithvi-II ballistic missile. It failed to lift off the pad during a trial in Chandipur, Orissa.

"The failure to lift Prithvi-II was due to a snag either in the main missile or the sub-system, including the launcher," a Defense Research and Development Organization spokesman said.

The test was conducted at the integrated test range, 140 miles from the Orissa state capital Bhubaneswar.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 13 Dec 2010 22:21

Ajatshatru wrote:A basic query:

If already 1000 Akash missiles therefore approx. 20 existing squadrons (if 48 missiles per squadron). Add 300 more missiles i.e. 6 more more squadrons to the above plus an already placed earlier order of 2 squadrons (6 + 2 = 8 ) thus a grand total of 28 squadrons.... In case of a simultaneous war with China and Pakistan, is there some minimum numbers of Akash squadrons that may be required for such an eventuality?

NOTE: There might have been a "huge" typo on the number of Akash missiles already in IAF service.. IAF probably has 100missiles = 2squadrons.. IAF had previously ordered 2squadrons in the first tranche.. there have been reports that they intended to place orders for 6more squadrons -- looks like the order is still circling in the various levels of approvals..

So far 2squadrons = 100missiles already ordered.. 6more squadrons = 300missiles very much will be cleared shortly.. Hopefully a few more sqadrons as they get more confidence in the system..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Dec 2010 23:09

^^^The 48missiles per Squadron means that IAF Akash Squadrons have 4 Flights of 4 launchers each (with 3 missiles each)...which I don't think is the case.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 13 Dec 2010 23:14

theorising on the A2P, the F/S is made of two sections, once the denser atmosphere is cleared, probably they planned to jettison the lower section of the maraging steel casing to save on weight, its like clearing a small silo while both the silo and the missile are in flight, probably thats where things went wrong? or the TVC without the casing had little too much freedom and hence unable to stabilize the flight? the initial orientation to be supported by the TVC is not the same as when it is on the ground standing vertical

it also supports the hybrid propellant (upper section of the F/S for accurate orbit injection) and solid propellant (for raw powered liftoff) theory

exo-atmospheric vehicles fly with their innards exposed, so the A2P could also be a precursor/building block to a ASAT weapon? I remember Arunji mention that an A-2 class vehicle is needed to cover the LEO targets

ashokpachori · Post by **ashokpachori** » 13 Dec 2010 23:56

vasu_ray wrote:
exo-atmospheric vehicles fly with their innards exposed,

May you expound the above (underlined) bit more, I am unable to understand.

Thanks.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 14 Dec 2010 00:11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GMD_k ... ift101.jpg

Thats just a depiction of EKV, it doesn't have a skin covering it since its operating outside the atmosphere, the tanks can also be jettisoned once used up keeping the cg balanced. The space shuttle flight has onboard video showing jettisoning of external boosters in pairs

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Dec 2010 00:24

That joint line could be something as simple as the length of the sheet metal used for covering the body - the skin of the missile wrapped around the skeleton.
Difficult to say if that is an actual joint there.
But its appearence in a missile without a vented stage is suspicious indeed.

Now if we look at the nose cone, the entire cone is I think just the warhead section, there is no space for a HAM, as opposed to the A-II where the heat sheild has a warhead + a HAM motor in it.
So this one sounds like a 2 stage missile unlike the 2+ stage in the usual A-II.
So I wonder if this is a 3 stage missile, given that it has a long composite stage and no vented stage.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 14 Dec 2010 00:51

if it is to be an SLV, they can replace the warhead with a small sat and a HAM integrated into the third stage keeping the weight the same. Probably there will different versions derived from the same base configuration. To be honest, at first glance it simply looked like a bigger Arrow missile.