Indian Army: News & Discussion

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 Dec 2010 23:09

^^
That is true. A guy with a lot of grudge and not much to lose will prove to be a severe headache to the CO and army in general.

But then again, if he will shows too much attitude problem, it is not as if he cannot be court martialled afterwards. Though, I agree that it is best to avoid unnecessary mess.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Dec 2010 00:22

This chap is lucky for he is still a gentleman cadet had he got his stripes he could have been tried and court-martial-ed on the grounds of conduct unbecoming of an officer and gentleman, hell people have been court-martialed in peace times for not turning up for duty.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2010 07:29

Its too harsh a punishment , he could have been reprimanded and counseled.

He must have worked very hard to become an officer , demoting him will now ruin his career and his dream for ever.

While the General and Admirals get away in land scam deal and poach on flats for martyrs without any punishment , an ordinary jawans dream gets ruined for what could be his only guilt.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2010 08:59

Sorry but there are better ways to deal with this considering he has worked hard to become an officer.

He can be councelled , repremanded and kept under observation , it would save his career and he would regret his actions.

Now demoting him is as good as killing his career in the army and his dreams for an act that can be eventually forgiven , he will end up being bitter all through his career.

The smaller fish has no one to save him for his act.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Dec 2010 09:37

^ Austin if a non service personnel would have committed the same crime and convicted under the IPC, would you still ask for such an individual to be let free ?

You see yours is a noble idea but unfortunately in larger interest of the system (in this case IA as institution) such exceptions cannot be made for how would in future IA be able to justify to the defaulters as to why are they being punished while this gentleman was allowed to go scott free ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Dec 2010 09:46

Austin,
You are highly incorrect in your assessment that he has suffered because he is jawan. In fact, he would have court martialled if he was an officer. You talk of generals waliking free. That is only when they are not caught. Can you give one instance of a serving General not facing action when caught? Two serving generals are already facing court martial for Adarsh Scam.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2010 11:42

negi wrote:^ Austin if a non service personnel would have committed the same crime and convicted under the IPC, would you still ask for such an individual to be let free ?

Negi the court always rules punishment on merit , put it simply every one who steals does not end up with same punishment .

I never said he should be let free but there are better ways to deal with this then spoiling his career for good.

You see yours is a noble idea but unfortunately in larger interest of the system (in this case IA as institution) such exceptions cannot be made for how would in future IA be able to justify to the defaulters as to why are they being punished while this gentleman was allowed to go scott free ?

Well the only reason these top officer are probed because their name came out and media made a big hue and cry.

You talk of generals waliking free. That is only when they are not caught. Can you give one instance of a serving General not facing action when caught? Two serving generals are already facing court martial for Adarsh Scam.

Generals are just that , how does it matter if its retired or serving ,considering these people used the right connection while serving to get those plots , now lets see who is involved among the top cream , former Army Chiefs Gen Deepak Kapoor and Gen N C Vij, former Navy Chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh and about 40 other serving and retired personal if media reports are true.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Dec 2010 12:31

Austin wrote:
You talk of generals waliking free. That is only when they are not caught. Can you give one instance of a serving General not facing action when caught? Two serving generals are already facing court martial for Adarsh Scam.
Generals are just that , how does it matter if its retired or serving ,considering these people used the right connection while serving to get those plots , now lets see who is involved among the top cream , former Army Chiefs Gen Deepak Kapoor and Gen N C Vij, former Navy Chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh and about 40 other serving and retired personal if media reports are true.

True, the state of IA's top brass is indeed worrying and Adarsh Scam is the peak of all this. That being said, I have yet to hear inaction on the part of Army against any complaint regardless of the rank. In fact, Major Generals and Brigadiers are most suspectable to this. This is because of the murky politics that goes on among the top brass. So, when caught, the lower ranks get screwed because they are not high enough while the upper ranks get screwed because all the others try their best to bring the person down. I have seen many a Generals/COs shiver just because of an anonymous letter sent against them to Army HQ. Adarsh was exceptional because even COAS was involved.

Again, no one here is naive enough to think that the top brass are not corrupt. What I am saying is that it is somewhat unfair to say that the cadet was brought down because he was a jawan. And more than that, I would strongly disagree with your opinion that he should not have been demoted. You may be interested to know that there have been instances of Officers being demoted.... sometimes the cause was even "severe case of negligence" on their part.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 13 Dec 2010 12:31

Every man (and woman) in the army is a soldier. Including Jawans, JCOs, Officers, Generals, and all others. They are all subject to the same law. The distinction between "Generals", and others is a fallacious one. The claim that they are punished because the media caught them, is also misguided. They are only the cases of punishment which one comes to know about. Several other such cases have naturally occurred, and been punished. The idea that only senior officer commit crimes is also wrong. Jawans, Subedars, Captains, Colonels, and all other sorts commit crimes. The media is not interested in the crimes of a Subedar. But they happen. And are detected. And are punished.

As for generals (those highlighted by the media),

General RK Hooda has had a case instituted against him by the Army for the Adarsh scam. The bureaucrats (who had 70% of the flats in the society, have meanwhile filed a case against the environment ministry, asking why the structure should be demolished! So much for punishment, for them, haha)

General PK Rath has had a case instituted against him, and has been court martialed.
General Avadesh Prakash has had a case instituted against him and been court martialed.
Many others have been disciplined without the media screaming about it because they werent interested.

The true fact of the matter is, that all service personnel involved in ANY scam, are probed, court martialled, punished, and fired. And using the logic that just because someone has worked hard, he should be given a fresh chance, this is unfair, since every general has spent an entire career of service in the army, devoted his life to it, worked hard to be promoted through a really tough pyramidical system, and faced dangers. So using this logic, all senior officers involved in scams should also be set free with a rap on the knuckles. They didnt become generals by magic. But that would be very bad for the army! Just as allowing this man to become an officer would be a disaster. How would his men, placed under his command, trust him?

What he did was a crime. There are several statutes which make it a summary court martial offence, and it is through a court martial that this case will be decided. It is an unfortunate event. But no officer can be retained who is guilty of such a dishonourable crime.

And this crime was not committed by magic. A djinn did not tell this man to steal. He decided that he wanted to steal this money. We must think. He has probably stolen from a fellow cadet who went through the same trouble to reach cadet status. He didnt care. He seems to think that he is entitled to all this. But he is not. He doesnt deserve to be an officer.

How seriously the law takes the sort of offence that he has committed in a person subject to Military Law, is evident from the relevant section (section 52) of the Army Act, 1950.

52. Offences in respect of property. Any person subject to this Act who commits any of the following offences, that is to say,-
(a) commits theft of any property belonging to the Government, or to any military, naval or air force mess, band or institution, or to any person subject to military, naval or air force law; or
(b) dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use any such property; or
(c) commits criminal breach of trust in respect of any such property; or
(d) dishonestly receives or retains any such property in respect of which any of the offences under clauses (a), (b) and (c) has been committed, knowing or having reason to believe the commission of such offence; or
(e) wilfully destroys or injures any property of the Government entrusted to him; or
(f) does any other thing with intent to defraud, or to cause wrongful gain to one person or wrongful loss to another person;
shall, on conviction by court- martial, be liable to suffer imprison- ment for a term which may extend to ten years or such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned.

The statute provides for him to be imprisoned for up to ten years for such an offence. Justice and law do not account for "this was a trifling offence". The statute clearly lays down what the punishment for his crime is. Such a man is not fit to be an officer. Not fit to command men. And not fit to inspire confidence in them. His hard work has been undone by his criminal actions. Not by anything else. And he should be answerable for his actions, as every other soldier is.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Dec 2010 15:33

Austin wrote:Its too harsh a punishment , he could have been reprimanded and counseled.

I am sure this chap knew that stealing money from an ATM is a crime. Be that in the Army or in civilian life. I feel the punishment should have been more severe. Not to prove any point, but stealing money in civilian life sends you to prison. And when you are in prison, your employment with your original company/or government office is gone too. This chap now has is original job (of a sepoy) and a monthly income (with some being taken to clear of the fine).

And of course if his original battalion knows the true reason for this chap to come back to the barracks, then his goose is cooked. No one will ever trust him, and he would be a marked man for the rest of his Army life. Perhaps the IA may shunt him out to a different unit.

ASPuar wrote:Nevertheless, in another article, the Brigadier has said clearly that the non appearance of the item on the "Chargeable account", which is an account of items which the Army is going to pay for, is a violation of procedure, and the Army was cooperating with the CBI, until they violated procedure, and went to media

What was the procedure which was violated? Looks like CBI had the authority to organise a raid and gather evidence. The Army authorities have not said that CBI was not the correct agency to conduct the investigation. And speaking to the media, lots of police agencies do that. Could be to get in the lime light, or as a routine procedure for informing the public. And if I am not mistaken there is no formal rule which says that the Police/CBI should not disclose information to the media. Off course in some police organisations, there have been some standing orders as to what sort of information can be passed onto the media and who can do it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2010 17:54

ASPuar wrote:Every man (and woman) in the army is a soldier. Including Jawans, JCOs, Officers, Generals, and all others. They are all subject to the same law. The distinction between "Generals", and others is a fallacious one. The claim that they are punished because the media caught them, is also misguided.

If that is the benchmark they have set , I would be keen to see what kind of action they have in store of big cats like former Army Chiefs Gen Deepak Kapoor and Gen N C Vij, former Navy Chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh. Plus there are 40 other from service/ex service that are involved , which I think in the first hand is very shameful to do for people in those top position.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 13 Dec 2010 18:39

Sachin, apparently there is a rule laying down that police agencies will inform the commanding officer and take his or her permission before entering military facilities for the purpose of of executing official duties. This was not done in this case, and the matter has been referred to the MoD for further action. Further, spreading of false claims in the media is actionable. It seems the CBI first claimed they had been locked up, which the Pune police commissioner negated as a false account, and secondly they claimed they were not allowed to take the AC, which they were. Its a murky case...

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Dec 2010 20:34

ASPuar wrote:Sachin, apparently there is a rule laying down that police agencies will inform the commanding officer and take his or her permission before entering military facilities for the purpose of of executing official duties.

That could be the case. An old story I heard in Kerala. When one Naxalite was being hunted by the K.P, he decided to hide at a friend's official quarters in Tamil Nadu. The friend was a naxal sympathiser, and the hiding place was not any Army camp, but the residential quarters of an organisation which was under the Defence Ministry. But because of this the Kerala Police were unable to enter the premises without letting the whole world know that they are police men. Finally two officers cornered the friend, stayed in his quarters as some of his 'friends' and waited for the naxal chap to come back to the hiding place after visiting a couple of his other naxal pals. As soon as the naxal was trapped, the 'friends' (Naxal friend, plus the police men friends) all bade good bye to their host and walked outside hand-in-hand

.

At what level is this approval required? Because will it lead to a situation where the approval authority is the same person against whom there are chances that the corruption charges would be framed? May be not as the person who took the bribe, but as the final authority who should have ensured things did not go this way.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Dec 2010 21:10

Austin wrote:
ASPuar wrote:Every man (and woman) in the army is a soldier. Including Jawans, JCOs, Officers, Generals, and all others. They are all subject to the same law. The distinction between "Generals", and others is a fallacious one. The claim that they are punished because the media caught them, is also misguided.
If that is the benchmark they have set , I would be keen to see what kind of action they have in store of big cats like former Army Chiefs Gen Deepak Kapoor and Gen N C Vij, former Navy Chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh. Plus there are 40 other from service/ex service that are involved , which I think in the first hand is very shameful to do for people in those top position.

How can you expect Army to take action against retired personnel? The matter is already out of their hands. Now, it is the job of civil authorities to probe and take due action in this matter. Army can only take action against the serving personnel and that has been done.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Dec 2010 21:14

Sachin, apparently there is a rule laying down that police agencies will inform the commanding officer and take his or her permission before entering military facilities for the purpose of of executing official duties.

Its not just police agencies its for all other services.

eg. from a real scenario

Chief Minister wants to fly in to aplace using a helo and nearest facility is on an Army ground.

The procedure is for the appropriate IAS guy to call up the Officer in charge of that facility and get permission.

it is followed diligently.

The tricky part on corruption issue raids is whether this will tip off the concerned parties as Sachin points out- this is a tough call and I am not sure of the answer here

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Dec 2010 21:16

Sachin,
So your point is that permission from CO Command Hospital, Pune cannot be taken because he himself could have be involved? Fair enough. But if CBI suspected that, they should have approached GOC and taken permission from him. There is a procedure, and it seems that CBI have no regard for it. Not to mention the blatant lies they seem to spreading.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 13 Dec 2010 21:36

Sachin, the authorisation was required from the Commander, Pune Sub Area. Not from anyone in the Hospital. As the President of the Pune Cantonment Board, the entire cantt area is under his jurisdiction, and when police authorities are entering it, they are required to notify him or her.

Your point about what to do if the person being investigated is also the authority can be answered by taking approval from the higher military authority under whose jurisdiction the area falls. Procedure and rules cannot be thrown to the winds simply because anyone feels like it, otherwise we descend to a lawless state.

Unfortunately, many police authorities, (more so in North India in my opinion, than in South, but I could be wrong), throw procedure to the winds, do not apply the law to their bretheren, and their officers, and become a source of lawlessness, instead of order. Which is bad. Quis custodiet ipsos custodies, as Juvenal asked, many centuries ago. Who will watch the watchmen? The rule of law works only when EVERYONE obeys the law. Especially those who are given the power and privilige of enforcing it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Dec 2010 23:02

^^^IMO, the police in North India in various states has been chatised more than once when they tried to act smart with the IA....the muscle power does have its use - this is the only language police in many cases understands. I've seen enough instances of that.

nits · Post by **nits** » 13 Dec 2010 23:56

Out of line: an army under fire

Despite troubling questions about the internal health of India's best-respected organisation, nobody from within the army is speaking out about the need to confront and fix the problem. The current army chief, General VK Singh, publicly declared while assuming office last April that restoring the army’s “internal health” would be his focus. The general has his task cut out for him.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Dec 2010 03:12

So here is twist to the problem

Suppose in one of the NE states or J&K the army comes to know of a wanted terrorist\insurgent being feted in a ministers house.

What would you expect the army officers to do??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2010 04:07

Police in general through out India imho, is the same more or less. AFAIK, it is worse in TN.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Dec 2010 06:14

Finally, Army moves into Maoist territory

While the army sought to emphasise that its plans are limited to training, and there will be no active troop deployment against the Maoist insurgency, sources in the security establishment said any training facility would necessitate logistical support. "This means the army would first secure the Kondagaon-Narayanpur axis, placing a large number of troops in a series of camps, before it moves inwards for the purpose of training, somewhere near Orcha in the foothills of Abujhmad" explained a senior official.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Dec 2010 08:44

India links Siachen demilitarisation to progress on Mumbai attacks

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... 656&Cat=13

Could be fake.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Dec 2010 11:12

rohitvats wrote:IMO, the police in North India in various states has been chatised more than once when they tried to act smart with the IA....the muscle power does have its use - this is the only language police in many cases understands. I've seen enough instances of that.

This was exactly the whole point I had raise to ASPuar saheb a couple of posts above. That is of Army using its muscle power to target policemen when it finds things are not going the way Army people wanted. Off course many in BR would take the stand that Army always (and every time) follows the procedures and guide lines and so stands always at a moral high ground. The muscle power of Army may not work always. What would be your take if Army men (coming on leave, or when their numbers are less) specifically targetted by a group of policemen, or for that matter civilians? In Kerala a couple of years back the people had bashed up a couple of defence personnel when they just declared a normal railway coach as a "Military Coach". I am sorry if Army feels that they can attack police forces at a place where Army people are more in number, the police (or any other organised group of people) have every right to single out Army folks and attack at the most oppurtune moment.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Dec 2010 11:16

Surya wrote:Suppose in one of the NE states or J&K the army comes to know of a wanted terrorist\insurgent being feted in a ministers house. What would you expect the army officers to do??

Perhaps the Armed Forces Special Act have provisions in such situations? Basically Army having limited powers to arrest or search a place? Or else it would be the job of the local police. And in places like J&K the Army and Police may have a better understanding (rather than Army using its muscle power to bash-up policemen

) because they may have to really help each other on a much regular basis.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2010 11:25

Sachin wrote:
This was exactly the whole point I had raise to ASPuar saheb a couple of posts above. That is of Army using its muscle power to target policemen when it finds things are not going the way Army people wanted. Off course many in BR would take the stand that Army always (and every time) follows the procedures and guide lines and so stands always at a moral high ground. The muscle power of Army may not work always. What would be your take if Army men (coming on leave, or when their numbers are less) specifically targetted by a group of policemen, or for that matter civilians? In Kerala a couple of years back the people had bashed up a couple of defence personnel when they just declared a normal railway coach as a "Military Coach". I am sorry if Army feels that they can attack police forces at a place where Army people are more in number, the police (or any other organised group of people) have every right to single out Army folks and attack at the most oppurtune moment.

Sachin, you've quoted only one side of the story and I'm aware of these developments. However, these issues are not a common occurance and more often than not, the erring people on IAs side are taken to task. Though, one cannot say so about the Police or others.

The context of my post is about Police personnel acting smart and behaving rudely with IA personnel or taking extreme actions. Like DSP and his goons thrashing an IA Major on leave and misbehaving with his wife and little kid in mid-90s in Poanta Sahib. Reason - the said Major did not give his convoy pass at time (this when they were in hill country and roads were narrow). Not only than, he imprisoned him in jail. His wife finally managed to reach out to the CO of 1 Para(SF) based on Nahan and rest is history. The story about the missing kids of a JCO is Secunderabad and IA-Police confrontation is another big story.

Especially in North, where people have exposure to the IA by virtue of their presence across the whole countryside or because of relatives, things with Police get done with simple request and intriduction. But the fellows at lower level (Police) are more understanding than the Officers. Wherever the Police steps out of its brief, there is altercation and Police are at receving end. They might then use the lawbook and throw Sections X & Y, but the fact remains that Police are drunk on power most of time....they'd treat IA as they common folk but for the muscle power of IA. That is the only language they understand.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Dec 2010 13:02

ASPuar wrote:As the President of the Pune Cantonment Board, the entire cantt area is under his jurisdiction, and when police authorities are entering it, they are required to notify him or her.

Sir, have been to Pune Cantt. a couple of times. If Police cannot enter a Cantonment Area (without prior sanction from the Army brass) who enforces law and order there? And if I am not mistaken there are lots of civilians too in Pune Cantt. area. I have not seen any Military Police doing any sort of law enforcement there. Or again is there an agreement between Pune Police and Pune Cantt. authorities?

In this case I feel that Army is also trying to act smart by crying about procedural violation. And CBI on the other hand does not want to admit it, but are interested in following up the allegations. In all these cries about procedure and protocol hope the whole case does not just melt away

.

rohitvats wrote:However, these issues are not a common occurance and more often than not, the erring people on IAs side are taken to task.

I have only recourse to news reports. Yet to find any news about the punishment meted out to any soldier who ran bersek in civilian areas, or attacked police personnel. Yes, there would be standard statements of "strict action would be taken" against IA soldiers and that is it. And since the established practise seems to be tacit approvals for Army men attacking police personnel, I really doubt what sort of punishments would given to the soldiers any way (a reward perhaps

).

And from the tussle between the Army and Policing agencies I can clearly see a "Us v/s Them" mentality. That being the case, giving prior information of raids etc. have a high chance of getting mis used. Fat chance, I see CBI getting justice if its personnel were assaulted in the Military establishment they raided (especially if Army wants to take the court martial route).

Even more reason that in such instances the case should be handed over to a civilian jurisdictional court, and tried as a normal criminal offence.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 14 Dec 2010 16:04

Sir, have been to Pune Cantt. a couple of times. If Police cannot enter a Cantonment Area (without prior sanction from the Army brass) who enforces law and order there? And if I am not mistaken there are lots of civilians too in Pune Cantt. area. I have not seen any Military Police doing any sort of law enforcement there. Or again is there an agreement between Pune Police and Pune Cantt. authorities?

Sachin: Police authorities are very much allowed to enter Pune Cantt and other cantt areas where civil and defence establishments are intermingled to carry out investigations involving the civilian populace. This is the accepted practice and the army does not stop/restrict the police from carrying out its functions. Most army units even within the cantonments are "gated" and hence, to enter those compounds, to investigate a Serving Military personnel, an authorisation from the station commander is required. In Pune's case, it would be the Pune Sub-Area commander. This is the accepted norm.The sub-area commander also, usually provides a CMP/Provost Unit detachment alongwith the police personnel if the police are entering a large establishment like base wkshp, command hospital, ordnance depot etc. And the head of the unit may or may not be informed beforehand depending on his degree of involvement in the 'crime'. So, there are established procedures for such actions and are usually followed in practice, more or less. In Pune Cantt, specifically because there are large civilian settlements within the cantt, the CMP resticts itself to the miltary units, while letting the cantonment board authorities to deal with the civilian set-ups. So, all this talk about Police not being allowed to enter defence areas and how the gallant law enforcers of our country are being being stopped from performing their sacred duty by a bunch of rustic brutes with heavy weaponry is well...hogwash... in the main.

I have only recourse to news reports. Yet to find any news about the punishment meted out to any soldier who ran bersek in civilian areas, or attacked police personnel.

Boss: there are sufficient courts of enquiries and court martials that are held for such incidents. There are multiple established instances of young army officers being punished in places like MHOW, Secunderabad, Pune etc, whenever their culpability has been established. Its just that the Military usually does not publish its CoI and GCM proceedings in the national media, and hence you are unaware of it. Therefore, to conflate your ignorance to organizational inertia on behalf of the miliatry is not fair..to put it mildly. Further, in a few cases involving the police, the police has simply sought it fit to register cases against army personnel from top -to bottom, without actually turning up at the GCM /CoI proceedings to give evidence. I mean the GCM is a court of law and one would expect the police, in most instances to turn up and provide their statements. More often than not, they have not turned up in instances that have involved clashes between groups of police and army personnel. So, while the police personnel get away scot free, the army personnel are stuck with FIRs registered by the police , to which they have no recourse, since they get posted out in 2 yrs , and they also get roggered by the army for getting involved in those clashes. Fair system no?

Pune Commd Hosp incident: Per se, I think for the CBI to raid an establishment the size of the Commd Hosp, in the day, with thousands of outpatients etc, thronging the wards, was not ideal timing. Especially, if the complaint was from a dodgy supplier aggieved about an AC in an establishment the size of a hospital. I mean from a purely practical point of view, the CBI should have waited/garnered something more substantial than some random AC in some random room! Now, I am completely in favour of things like "all crimes are crimes and must be treated equally", but come on! Raiding a huge general hospital for one AC!!?? For me, this is where the disconnect lies - the CBI could have made the case with something a little more substantial, and then gone to the Army Commander and they would have received a carte blanche. What this unsavoury tamaasha has done is to reduce the whole thing to a farce, allowed the real crooks to cover their tracks, the dodgy suppliers to form a mafia, and the guys on the take to erase all evidence, and the CBI reduced to a laughing stock!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 14 Dec 2010 18:11

Sachinji, you seem to be making a straw man argument. What makes you feel that Army personnel are always ready to bash up policemen when they are greater in number? I have yet to hear of it. Most army personnel are afraid of the police, because they know the police operate largely as a law unto themself, while they themselves (armymen) are subject to the very stringent discipline of the Army act. Please read EN Rammohan, IPS's book "Simply Khaki" for more on this.

My point about police misbehaviour was not just with army personnel, it was with any common man. That same misbehaviour and abuse is attempted with army personnel also, quite frequently, with policemen knowing that with the law backing them, they can do anything. Your scenarios of Army versus Police confrontations, if you will forgive me for saying so, seem largely theoretical, and hypothetical, and there is no reason to worry about what will happen unless a real case comes to light.

It can equally be argued that the "us vs them mentality" is not created by the Army, rather by the police officers, always out to be one up on the army., IMO. Also, I dont think the Army is trying to act smart by citing the procedural violation. If procedure is violated, then that is what it is. They have every right to question why procedure was not followed. It should be investigated, and punished. Noone should be above the law. Including the law keepers. Otherwise there is no rule of law, only jungle rule.

At any rate, the Pune Hospital case reads like a comedy. Even using some practical thinking, the officer accused is a Lt. Col. At present rates of salary, they make up to Rs 70,000 per month (not including CTC like housing, leave, canteen, etc). Would he want to corruptly accept an AC worth just Rs 14,000, that too for fitting in a waiting room in a hospital, and not even for personal use, from a known crook? Why would he want to risk his name, position, and career like that? Something smells a bit rotten.

Im willing to wait and see what happens, but I very much doubt that this case will result in anything beyond egg on the CBI's face. The agency is known for its precipitate actions. One must remember the case of Mr UN Biswas, IPS, Jt Dir CBI who charged off and demanded Army assistance to arrest Lalooji in violation of all procedures. He was later punished for it, by the agency and the Courts, and rightly so.

Furthermore, there is the fact of the investigating agency's lack of truthfulness. First, they claimed they had been locked up. The Pune Police commissioner denied this, so they had to shut up on that front. Next, they said they were not allowed to take the AC. Turns out that they were. Finally, in all their hoo har to the media, they forgot to mention that the man on whose complained they have acted, was blacklisted for the reason that he supplied spurious medicines to the hospital, so he obviously had an axe to grind. So what are the true facts?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Dec 2010 20:03

Avik wrote:Its just that the Military usually does not publish its CoI and GCM proceedings in the national media, and hence you are unaware of it.

I have already said in a couple of pages before that (I guess when I responded to rohitvats) that there are no media reports which says Army men are punished in such cases. Why is the Army hesitant in providing this information, especially to the media? From two incidents which rohitvats quoted, all I can figure out was that the Army personnel bashed up police men and ransacked the police stations (just like any other criminal gang would do). Can you show me some evidence which says that the erring Army personnel were taken to task? From rohitvats posting I could not infer that any ways (his statement was the police men only recognized the language of brute force).

Further, in a few cases involving the police, the police has simply sought it fit to register cases against army personnel from top -to bottom, without actually turning up at the GCM /CoI proceedings to give evidence

Two cases were already mentioned by rohitvats here. The police would be fools to attend a court of enquiry conducted by an organisation whose personnel targetted them

. It would be better that any case involving a military personnel and civilian (or civil law enforcement) be automatically moved to a civilian judicial court. And in case of punishments meted out, that being reported in media. The media has not shied away from reporting in detail of punishments meted out to police personnel, so guess for the military also it would be fine.

So, while the police personnel get away scot free, the army personnel are stuck with FIRs registered by the police , to which they have no recourse

If I am not mistaken from all the information ASPuar saheb has been patiently giving me, what I could make out was that Army/Defence authorities decide where the case has to be dealt with. In the Kolkotha PS attack case, the Army refused to hand over the accused soldiers to the civilian authorities. I have already provided links (a couple of pages back) where Defence authorities have even tried to get murder (of a civilian) case transferred to a Courts Martial. That being the case what is the use of the FIRs which is a "first information report" and not even a charge sheet?

ASPuar wrote:What makes you feel that Army personnel are always ready to bash up policemen when they are greater in number?

When I started off I only had an old story to tell (which happened in Socialist Republic of Kerala

). Then rohitvats gave me another two recent stories. And in all cases one thing is common. It was Army personnel swooping down in large numbers and attacking police men

. In my place, the other people who do the same are either religious fanatics or communist party cadres.

So my points are:-
1. Is it that the Army personnel (as a group) targets police personnel knowing fully well that they are pretty much immunue to prosecution from a civilian judicial court?
2. If the Army claims that even in such cases exemplary punishment is meted out to the Army personnel, how is it let known to the out side world. If that does not happen all it only gives an impression that it is a fair game to target civilian law enforcement personnel (or for that matter any other group).

Please read EN Rammohan, IPS's book "Simply Khaki" for more on this.

Would now be on the look out for this book. Thanks !

.

And yes, let us see what happens at the end. With Army now getting into the lime light thanks to the various "suspected of corruption" charges. And I also really dont know if all these are also a show by the civilian bureaucracy to show each other that "every one is equally playing fowl in this game"

.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2010 22:48

Sachin wrote:<SNIP>I have only recourse to news reports. Yet to find any news about the punishment meted out to any soldier who ran bersek in civilian areas, or attacked police personnel. Yes, there would be standard statements of "strict action would be taken" against IA soldiers and that is it. And since the established practise seems to be tacit approvals for Army men attacking police personnel, I really doubt what sort of punishments would given to the soldiers any way (a reward perhaps ).

<SNIP>

Sachin, my statement was with respect to the incidence involving IA personnel and civilian junts - the railway bogie example you quoted. These are rare and far in between. And while IA may well be hesitant to hand over soldiers to Police in these cases (there are again exception to these), they are for sure punished.

As for IA versus Police forces, I'm willing to go out on limb here and claim that 9 out of 10 cases, the fault lies with overzealous Police officers. Call it pure luck or destiny, I've 'N' number of such cases in cantonments/cities we're posted in. From Police DGP abusing IA jawans and objecting to parking area reserved for IA in city by municipal council to picking up IA 2nd Lt. and roughing them up because the relatives of the girl he was going out with 'complained' to Police, I've seen enough of these Police shenanigans. I've no love lost for the Police in these cases and they deserve what they get (got). That is the only language these people understand and do not hesitate to play the game of one upmanship. Only the muscle power keeps them at bay. And thank God for that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2010 23:06

Sachin wrote:
<SNIP>

From two incidents which rohitvats quoted, all I can figure out was that the Army personnel bashed up police men and ransacked the police stations (just like any other criminal gang would do). Can you show me some evidence which says that the erring Army personnel were taken to task? From rohitvats posting I could not infer that any ways (his statement was the police men only recognized the language of brute force).

<SNIP>

Sir, the two incidents that I quoted had a specific history and a clear cause and effect link. It was not a premediated attempt by the IA personnel to thrash the Police officers and jawans in question - the act of Police personnel aggravated the situation. They acted as law unto themselves and did not bargain for facing the business end of the bamboo.

- In the case of Major in Poanta Sahib and 1 Para(SF), the CM of Himachal Pradesh went on record to accept the fault and high handedness of Police and settled the matter with IA.

- In second case ( I did not give details earlier) - the two children of IA JCO ended up dead after being kidnapped by a local goon - who had been warned by IA to not roam around the Unit Kot and with whom there was some altercation as well. When the children were kidnapped, the Infantry Unit team approached the local Police Station but there was no action - as the fellow was supposed to be in 'good books' of SHO. The next day the children were found drowned in the local well. And that is how the altercation with Police started. And took a real ugly turn.

Were any of the IA personnel prosecuted? I think some were in case 2 (because of larger bearing of the conduct) but none in case 1. But was this a case of premediated assault on the Police personnel - I think not. It is instances like these which inflame the situation and then we have our gallant law enforcers hiding behind one or the other section.

So, to say that IA personnel are simply looking to pick up a fight is completely wrong and misinterpretation. As I said earlier, more often than not, the fault lies with the Police.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 14 Dec 2010 23:17

The police would be fools to attend a court of enquiry conducted by an organisation whose personnel targetted them . It would be better that any case involving a military personnel and civilian (or civil law enforcement) be automatically moved to a civilian judicial court.

Dude: You do see the contradiction in your logic here; dont you?? You dont want the police to attend military courts, but are keenly advocating that army personnel submit themselves to police/judicial custody to stand trial in a civil court? Good for the goose, not good for the gander..and all that..no??!! Taking your logic a little further, the general population should lay off approaching civil courts in case of a police violence case, just because they may get bashed up by the police again during the court appearance..right??!!

As Rohit pointed out, there are any number (and I really mean a large number)of cases where army personnel have been severely punished for transgressing civilian authority and laws. That said, it would be interesting to note the punishment meted out to police personnel when they bashed up army personnel, usually proceeding on leave? None whatsoever, as far as I recall, beyond the meaningless, if at all, suspension for a few days. As a corollary, it would be interesting to find out the last time the CBI raided an armed police camp, whether Malabar Special Police or Maharashtra's SRP. Now that would be an interesting bout!

I have already said in a couple of pages before that (I guess when I responded to rohitvats) that there are no media reports which says Army men are punished in such cases. Why is the Army hesitant in providing this information, especially to the media?

Again, what is your beef? That the army doesnt punish its personnel when they bash up police or is it that they dont blitz the media when they actually punish their own personnel? If it is the first, as Rohit has said, there are any number of such cases when personnel have been imprisoned, lost seniority/rank, severely reprimanded and even sacked from service and handed over to police depending upon the severity of the incident. If you ever go to Hyderabad, there is a place called Trimulgherry, which has a castle straight out of the middle ages, where a lot of such personnel spend quality time. But if your problem is about the lack of a media blitz, a-la the newest product from P&G or HUL, well, sorry, thats how the military is. This is an organisation which has preferred to keep mum on incidents like Kaluchak and Badami Bagh attacks (except for the initial brouhaha) , so to expect it to get on media channels, a-la talk show hosts, is a bit much!! Possibly, the problem lies with the media on not following up after the initial headlines....

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Dec 2010 05:10

Tales of Heroism and Sacrifice from '71 Victory

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 15 Dec 2010 10:54

rohitvats wrote: my statement was with respect to the incidence involving IA personnel and civilian junts - the railway bogie example you quoted

In this case the help of neither the state police nor that of any Army unit was required. People gave them a solid thrashing and no charge was levied at all

. This happened during the morning rush hour so people were really pi$$ed of by this. So quoting your own words - "And thank God for that"

.

Only the muscle power keeps them at bay.

When the "bashing up of soldiers in the railway coach" incident was reported (it happened nearly 4-6 years back) I had sided with the soldiers, by stating that they might have done this because of getting leaves at short notice and so could not get any reservations. And they might have tried to act smart to travel comfortably. Now I realise how wrong (and naive) I was. Given a chance they might have tried to flout the rule, but unfortunately for them they landed up in the midst of a wrong group of people. So guess the old classic case of Might is right

.

In the case of Major in Poanta Sahib and 1 Para(SF), the CM of Himachal Pradesh went on record to accept the fault and high handedness of Police and settled the matter with IA

Fine, and what did the IA do to its own folks who broke the law there? The police any way got beaten up, plus there would be departmental enquiries against them as well (since CM of HP state was involved). And what about the buddies in IA?

When the children were kidnapped, the Infantry Unit team approached the local Police Station but there was no action - as the fellow was supposed to be in 'good books' of SHO

Police cannot (and need not) act on the whims and fancies of the local Infantry unit. They can only act as per the information they have at hand.

The next day the children were found drowned in the local well. And that is how the altercation with Police started. And took a real ugly turn.

Okay, so one chap kidnaps two kids and they are unfortunately dead. So now it is time for the Army to bash up the police, because things did not work out their way.

Were any of the IA personnel prosecuted? I think some were in case 2 (because of larger bearing of the conduct)

So we dont have any credible information of prosecution, am I correct? So the only part which we are sure off is that the Army ransacked a PS and attacked the police men there, because the Army's recommended way of making arrests or doing an investigation was not followed.

Avik wrote:Taking your logic a little further, the general population should lay off approaching civil courts in case of a police violence case, just because they may get bashed up by the police again during the court appearance..right??!!

There is a big difference pal! In civil world the judiciary is totally independent of the executive. So if a person who goes to a judicial court alleging that police men bashed him up, it is not the higher ups of the same police agency who is going to hear that case. That is because the judiciary does not consist of members from the police force. They are totally independent. Is that the case in a court martial?

That the army doesnt punish its personnel when they bash up police or is it that they dont blitz the media when they actually punish their own personnel?

When an Army v/s civilian establishment fight (or any other incident takes place) it would be much better to note that punishments have been given to all the people who were on the wrong. As it is the Army world is a bit isolated from the media, and such incidents only give an impression that justice was not carried out at the Army end.

I have seen court martial verdicts which do get published in the news papers. But is mainly on cases where the personnel have been charged for violating Army rules. Like for example a case in which a lady officer accused her superiors of indecent behaviour, or in cases of misappropriation of Army funds etc.

As a corollary, it would be interesting to find out the last time the CBI raided an armed police camp, whether Malabar Special Police or Maharashtra's SRP.

The CBI only raids an establishment (like a huge hospital, or a police camp) when it feels the requirement to do so. The case could be that in MSP or in SRP they have not got a complaint of corruption. But CBI have conducted investigations against police officials and have got them sentenced as well.

If you ever go to Hyderabad, there is a place called Trimulgherry, which has a castle straight out of the middle ages, where a lot of such personnel spend quality time

Any more information you can provide on this? Would be glad to see myself corrected.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Dec 2010 11:02

Sachin, I still think you are assuming overmuch. Please provide links to the situations you have cited, and then we can all see what these news reports of such confrontations are, where army men have misbehaved. I am sure there are such situations. But equally I can find links where policemen have misbehaved.

On the whole, I think we are making too much of a situtation which so far exists only in our mind. These issues happen, and they are sorted out according to the law.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 15 Dec 2010 12:00

ASPuar wrote:On the whole, I think we are making too much of a situtation which so far exists only in our mind. These issues happen, and they are sorted out according to the law.

Yes let us leave it at that. And let us see if any new events come up (rather than old cases for which it is tough to get information now).

In the meanwhile at Bangalore another drama has started.
Vatal urges justice to Mukarram's family
Wheelies scare motorists on M.G. Road

Now who was this Mukaramm? He was Mohammed Mukaramm Pasha who was killed by an Army sentry at the Flag Staff House (residence of Sub-Area commander K&K Sub-area). Now what did he do? Nothing much. Was trying racing out there in the old Air Port road with a large group of his friends late at night. Traffic police men chase him on their motor cycles. Mukaramm Pasha acts smart and jumps into the ASC officer's mess hoping that the police men would leave him at that. But then the Traffic police informs the sentries on duty at ASC mess. Pasha is chased and now tries his luck by jumping to the next compound which seems to be the residence of the sub-area commander. The sentries at that place also now join in. Mohammed Pasha (most likely spotting his pals waiting outside, from his hide out in the terrace of the building) decides to flee by jumping over the wall. The sentry fired and sadly the bullets were quicker, and Pasha was hit. His friends did take him to a hospital and scooted from the area. Pasha soon succumbed to his injuries.

Mr. Vatal Nagraj now demands that 50lakhs compensation should be given to Pasha's family on humanitarian grounds

. I am yet to find out the reason for this remand, other than the obvious reason which I get after seeing the victims name

.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2010 12:08

Sachin, you're strecthing the arguments for the sake of it.

Sachin wrote:
When the "bashing up of soldiers in the railway coach" incident was reported (it happened nearly 4-6 years back) I had sided with the soldiers, by stating that they might have done this because of getting leaves at short notice and so could not get any reservations. And they might have tried to act smart to travel comfortably. Now I realise how wrong (and naive) I was. Given a chance they might have tried to flout the rule, but unfortunately for them they landed up in the midst of a wrong group of people. So guess the old classic case of Might is right .

As I said earlier, to use this instance to brush the IA personnel as waiting to take law into their hands - manpower permitting - is gross generalization. Instances of such occurances are very rare and IA punishes its guilty.

The second and main set of argument is about IA versus the Police and as I have stated earlier, more often than not, the Police aggravates the situation.

Fine, and what did the IA do to its own folks who broke the law there? The police any way got beaten up, plus there would be departmental enquiries against them as well (since CM of HP state was involved). And what about the buddies in IA?

Before the Police got beaten up, it is the Police which thrashed the IA Major, confined him in jail without any charge and misbehaved with his wife and a little kid. And why? Because he did not give the DSP cavalcade pass in time. Let us get the context straight. The entire fault lies with the Police and hence, the CM intervention and his statement to the effect that we want cordial relations with the IA. As for IA, none of them got prosecuted AFAIK. Yes, legally it should have happened...but then legally, the Police should not have done what they did with the IA Major. As I said earlier, this is the only language the Police understands and not some love for following the law book.

However, to answer the bigger question - IA is not looking to pick up fights with Police - it is usually the pther way around.

Police cannot (and need not) act on the whims and fancies of the local Infantry unit. They can only act as per the information they have at hand.

This is a pretty loose statement, Sachin - registering a FIR and acting on it is the job of Police. Which they did not in this case. And I've given you the reason. Had they done something, may be those children could have been saved.

Why are you simply stretching the argument for the sake of it?

Okay, so one chap kidnaps two kids and they are unfortunately dead. So now it is time for the Army to bash up the police, because things did not work out their way.

This is quite ridiculous - again, Sir, you're arguing for the sake it and defending the indefensible. The incident was to highlight the fact that more often than not, it is the Police attitude which triggers the reaction and not other way out. Which in this case was being implicit in the murder of those two kids. Whether it was right or not is a moot point.

So we dont have any credible information of prosecution, am I correct? So the only part which we are sure off is that the Army ransacked a PS and attacked the police men there, because the Army's recommended way of making arrests or doing an investigation was not followed.

[/quote]

Again, why the need to stretch the argument for the sake of it?

I think the objectivity has gone from this debate.

Edit: Saw your reply to ASPaur later. Peace.Thanx.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2010 12:19

From Orbat.Com:

Two developments in Pakistan North Kashmir Mandeep Singh Bajwa sends a rather cryptic communication. One, Force

Command Northern Areas is now known as Force Command Gilgit-Baltisan, following the renaming of the Northern Areas. Though the region is part and parcel of Kashmir, Pakistan has taken it out of Kashmir and rules it directly. (Maybe India can learn something from Pakistan?)

Two, the Chinese military presence in Gilgit-Baltistan continues to grow.

Some of this is undoubtedly related to the project to widen the Karakoram Highway to six lanes from the current two. But there's more going on than just yet. We'll have to wait for Mr. Bajwa to tell us what it is.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 16 Dec 2010 00:04

Sachin wrote: In the meanwhile at Bangalore another drama has started.
Vatal urges justice to Mukarram's family
Wheelies scare motorists on M.G. Road

Now who was this Mukaramm? He was Mohammed Mukaramm Pasha who was killed by an Army sentry at the Flag Staff House (residence of Sub-Area commander K&K Sub-area). Now what did he do? Nothing much. Was trying racing out there in the old Air Port road with a large group of his friends late at night. Traffic police men chase him on their motor cycles. Mukaramm Pasha acts smart and jumps into the ASC officer's mess hoping that the police men would leave him at that. But then the Traffic police informs the sentries on duty at ASC mess. Pasha is chased and now tries his luck by jumping to the next compound which seems to be the residence of the sub-area commander. The sentries at that place also now join in. Mohammed Pasha (most likely spotting his pals waiting outside, from his hide out in the terrace of the building) decides to flee by jumping over the wall. The sentry fired and sadly the bullets were quicker, and Pasha was hit. His friends did take him to a hospital and scooted from the area. Pasha soon succumbed to his injuries.

Mr. Vatal Nagraj now demands that 50lakhs compensation should be given to Pasha's family on humanitarian grounds . I am yet to find out the reason for this remand, other than the obvious reason which I get after seeing the victims name .

I remember this case quite well.

It occurred shortly after the Mumbai attacks, and all defence facilities were on high alert. The police also informed the army authorities immediately when he entered, because they could not chase inside, and there was all around worry because of 26/11. This man had been running from the police, and had trespassed into the ASC compound. He was ordered to halt by the sentry, when he was on top of the Sub Area Commanders house terrace, but kept running. He was shot dead by the sentry, although the sentry had tried to use minimal force, by putting his rifle on single shot instead of auto. Unfortunately, the bullet pierced the young mans heart. Nevertheless, the police maintained that there was no irregularity, and the sentry was well within his rights.

Let me see if I can dig up a news report....