PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Dec 2010 20:53

Lockheed Cross-Breeding Raptors, Joint Strike Fighters

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2010 22:08

sumshyam wrote:A new

"The cost of preliminary design is estimated at $295 million. The work is expected to be complete within 18 months," Nayak said.
What does it mean....is it estimated cost of plane per unit.

It depends on how many design variants planned? btw how many are planned?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 18 Dec 2010 08:56

SaiK wrote:btw how many are planned?

No idea...anyhow another news says Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

Navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FAs to be deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be deployed on Admiral Kuzetsov and future Russian Aircraft carriers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2010 09:15

if it happens - good for US - gets IN out JSF lust mode. but Rus needs to come up with steam catapults to hurl such a heavy plane else ski jump limits the payload like Su33 on kuznetsov.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Dec 2010 14:00

Navalized PAK-FA or FGFA?

Simple google indicates that the FGFA will need a re-working of the PAK-FA wings and some other elements. Seems to me that this has been repeated since April, 2010 or so. In fact, I do not even expect the 50 single seaters the IAF is expected to "buy" to be PAK-FA based designs - we will have to wait and see on that. Therefore I would expect IN to base her selection on the FGFA design and not on what the RuN decides to do.

Buy the way, the same article states that the Adm K will get 29 MiG-29Ks!! Along with the Naval PAK-FAs. Something seems amiss.

However, a better option for the IN would be a naval AMCA. More compact and it should give the FGFA a run for the money.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Dec 2010 16:16

>> Buy the way, the same article states that the Adm K will get 29 MiG-29Ks!! Along with the Naval PAK-FAs. Something seems amiss.

how so ?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 18 Dec 2010 18:27

maybe something related to this article

Construction of the new Russian aircraft carriers is to begin in 2012, which would see the first carriers coming into operation somewhere around 2020.

http://siberianlight.net/russia-new-aircraft-carriers/

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 18 Dec 2010 18:28

the naval PAK-FA should come in service around the same time i.e 2020

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2010 02:22

Rahul M wrote:>> Buy the way, the same article states that the Adm K will get 29 MiG-29Ks!! Along with the Naval PAK-FAs. Something seems amiss.

how so ?

Adm K is supposed to have a capacity of 52 (max). Of which they tend to carry about 20-25 helos. Now, if they intend to carry 29 MiG-29K when the option is PAK-FA Navals, I would like to think that something is missing.

??????

However, that is a passing observation.

What I am more curious about is what do people think will happen with the single seater. Will it be the PAK-FA or a different design. One that has a LOT more commonality (in design - looks let us say) with the FGFA.

TIA.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Dec 2010 04:18

sumshyam wrote:A new

"The cost of preliminary design is estimated at $295 million. The work is expected to be complete within 18 months," Nayak said.
What does it mean....is it estimated cost of plane per unit.

No no..simply the cost of the contract for preliminary design work. This contract will be followed by detail design work and a separate contract will be signed for that. What is not clear is whether that is the amount that HAL will put up or whether that is the total preliminary design work cost to be shared equally by both HAL and Sukhoi.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2010 05:15

NRao wrote:Navalized PAK-FA or FGFA?

Simple google indicates that the FGFA will need a re-working of the PAK-FA wings and some other elements. Seems to me that this has been repeated since April, 2010 or so. In fact, I do not even expect the 50 single seaters the IAF is expected to "buy" to be PAK-FA based designs - we will have to wait and see on that. Therefore I would expect IN to base her selection on the FGFA design and not on what the RuN decides to do.

Buy the way, the same article states that the Adm K will get 29 MiG-29Ks!! Along with the Naval PAK-FAs. Something seems amiss.

However, a better option for the IN would be a naval AMCA. More compact and it should give the FGFA a run for the money.

PAK-FA/FGFA is too big for aircraft carriers. If you remember, USN, which operates the largest aircraft carriers, found the F-22 unsuitable for carrier operations because of its size and weight. Like the Su-33, the performance will be severely limited for a big aircraft operating out of aircraft carriers.

More suitable are Medium aircrafts ... and AMCA would be a better fit for IN's carriers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2010 05:36

Thanks srai. I feel that the AMCA would be more flexible in many ways.

Meanwhile, while puttering around the net, found this - what at first appeared to be old news, but I could not a ref on BR, so posting (hope it is not stale):

Dec 13, 2010 :: Russia, China push fifth-generation fighter programmes to meet year-end milestones

The title seemed very familiar, but the following I had not read here:

Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosian said the T-50 will take part in a flight display at the August 2011 Moscow Aviation and Space Salon (MAKS) as well as being on static display.

That should get a few to attend.

Both prototypes are powered by the same Saturn/Lyulka 117S engines fitted to the Sukhoi Su-35 while a new engine jointly developed by Saturn and the MMPP Salyut plant is in its design phase.

As of last April there was a rather acrimonious discussion between who would build the 5th gen engine. (I have not kept up with these details, so this is all new to me.) So, it looks like they have combined them all and are funding a single group. (This does not look like a good technical solution, based on my recollection, it seems to be more of a political one - more to appease everyone. But .....................

And, then this little nugget:

The programme designation has been changed and is now officially being referred to as the 'PAK-FA/MI' (MI meaning Mnogofunktsionalniy Istrebitel, or Multirole Fighter).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2010 07:35

NRao wrote:
Rahul M wrote:>> Buy the way, the same article states that the Adm K will get 29 MiG-29Ks!! Along with the Naval PAK-FAs. Something seems amiss.

how so ?
Adm K is supposed to have a capacity of 52 (max). Of which they tend to carry about 20-25 helos. Now, if they intend to carry 29 MiG-29K when the option is PAK-FA Navals, I would like to think that something is missing.

??????

naval PAKFA is not for another 10-15 years, they need the mig-29k to make up numbers as the su33 is long in the tooth. after 2020 if the naval PAKFA is ready it might progressively replace the mig29k on kuz.
the likely scenario IMO is naval PAKFA would be ready in 2025 alongwith a new carrier which will carry it. kuz might be decommissioned then.

NRao wrote: What I am more curious about is what do people think will happen with the single seater. Will it be the PAK-FA or a different design. One that has a LOT more commonality (in design - looks let us say) with the FGFA.

TIA.

I'm not convinced that aerodynamically there would be too many differences in FGFA 2 seater and PAKFA single seater (unless I missed some major news)

internally FGFA would be a different bird and our single seaters would have same avionics etc fit as FGFA 2seater.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2010 09:25

Not a big deal (since it is not specifically India related), but, the article started with:

Navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FAs to be deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov.

And, then it went on to state about the 29 MiG-29s. (I will file that article under semi-DDM.)

Let it slide. No bid deal.

On the issue of PAK-FA/MI vs. FGFA, there has always been talk of a different wing - right from the start. Specially since the two-seat version would need a good deal of re-work. It started with this article in 2008:

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

I have not been on top of it (for about 6 months), but have not seen a different version. Which is why it led me to believe that the FGFA would be structurally different and therefore would look somewhat to greatly different.

Furthermore, I would expect the FGFA to deviate quite a bit from the PAK-FA - just a gut feel. Although the "gut feel" is based on the funds available to each country.

Dunno. Let us see.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2010 10:06

tushar_m wrote:Construction of the new Russian aircraft carriers is to begin in 2012, which would see the first carriers coming into operation somewhere around 2020.

Russia will not construct any new Aircraft Carrier till 2010 , this was confirmed last week by their DM its not part of 2011-2020 defence mod/funding plan , all they would do is formalisation of requirement and design work.

So any Naval PAK-FA or FGFA will arrive by 2025 not before that , PAK-FA may be a big fighter but it may occupy smaller foot print then Mig-29K , much like a folded Su-27 on carrier hanger occupies smaller foot print compared to folded Mig-29K, which would allow more number of Su-27 docked inside the hanger.

Saturn and Salyut are jointly suppose to develop the new engine , considering the significant investment needed and the consolidation of Russian aerospace industry , much like Mig and Yakovlev have been subcontracted for PAK-FA though Sukhoi leads the project.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2010 10:24

For naval pak-fa version, I think ideally we should have our ADS nuke powered and we get a EMALS catapult system.

=========

a pic from key pub
http://i45.tinypic.com/2rptlkk.jpg

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2010 15:20

Saturn and Salyut are jointly suppose to develop the new engine , considering the significant investment needed and the consolidation of Russian aerospace industry , much like Mig and Yakovlev have been subcontracted for PAK-FA though Sukhoi leads the project.

And, this engine, in the design phase currently, is about 10 years away?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Dec 2010 15:24

interesting snippet about the wing Rao sahab, let's see how it shapes up.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Dec 2010 05:26

Fifth-gen jets in IAF arsenal in a decade

NEW DELHI: It will take a decade for India to begin inducting the first lot of the 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) it is going to jointly develop and manufacture with Russia.

As per the detailed roadmap finalised between India and Russia, the "series production" of FGFA will be launched in 2019, with the actual deliveries to begin in 2020, sources said.

The stage for the entire FGFA programme, which will see India spending upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project, will finally be set this week.

With Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in town, New Delhi and Moscow will ink the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) for FGFA on Tuesday. Then, over the next 18 months, the two sides will work out the detailed design and other agreements to kickstart the actual building of FGFA.

"Forty Indian designers and scientists will be stationed in Russia, with a similar number of Russians here. A secure data link will also be set up to ensure both sides are fully in the picture all the time," said a source.

The total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $11 billion, with both sides chipping in with $5.50 billion each in the "50-50% partnership".

India, for instance, will spend $2.50 billion of its $5.50 billion share in setting up infrastructure for manufacturing plants, tooling facilities and hangars.

Each "swing role" FGFA, with a deadly mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities, will cost an additional $100 million or so.

Cash-strapped Russia is already flying the prototype of its single-seater FGFA called Sukhoi T-50. While the Indian FGFA will basically be based on this fighter, it will "be tweaked to meet IAF requirements".

For one, IAF wants a twin-seater FGFA, with one pilot actually flying the jet and the other handling sensors and weapon systems. Russia, however, feels adding a second cockpit will "adversely impact" the stealth.

For another, IAF is keen on a new engine with "a greater thrust" than the one Russia is currently using for its FGFA. "All these things will take time and money... Six to seven prototypes should be flying by 2017. It will take about 2,500 hours of flying to get the final flight certification," he said.

With IPR (intellectual property rights) being "equally and jointly vested", India and Russia may also decide to sell the FGFA to "third countries" by mutual consent.

Till FGFA becomes a reality, India's combat fleet will mainly revolve around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft to be acquired in the $10.4 billion project and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Dec 2010 06:31

RMji,

It has been that a way from the very start, so I am surprised that in the past 6 months it has not been a topic of discussion. In fact add composites to the list too. The two (PAK-FA and FGFA) were (6 months ago) supposedly substantially diff on that aspect. Anyways....................

On the above article, India wanting a more powerful engine. Interesting. The Russians are satisfied with what they have at the moment, as far as power is concerned . What they really want is less signature in all aspects WRT the engine itself. With India wanting more power, I guess India will get it within the time frame India seems to have set. BUT, I am not very confident that India will get power + reduced signature in the same time frame. Again, let us wait?

Finally, no mention of the AMCA in the last para? THAT is sad. I would like to think the AMCA is even more important than the FGFA itself!!!! Grrrr

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2010 09:45

Fifth-gen jets in IAF arsenal in a decade

NEW DELHI: It will take a decade for India to begin inducting the first lot of the 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) it is going to jointly develop and manufacture with Russia.

"Forty Indian designers and scientists will be stationed in Russia, with a similar number of Russians here. A secure data link will also be set up to ensure both sides are fully in the picture all the time," said a source.

The total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $11 billion, with both sides chipping in with $5.50 billion each in the "50-50% partnership".

India, for instance, will spend $2.50 billion of its $5.50 billion share in setting up infrastructure for manufacturing plants, tooling facilities and hangars.

US$ 2.5 Billion will be spent in India but what will happen to rest of the money? Where will the small sum of US$ 3 billion = Rs. 15,000 crores go?? IF R&D is being done in India then there is no mention of setting up of Labs in India, why?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Dec 2010 10:02

vic wrote:Fifth-gen jets in IAF arsenal in a decade
NEW DELHI: It will take a decade for India to begin inducting the first lot of the 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) it is going to jointly develop and manufacture with Russia.

"Forty Indian designers and scientists will be stationed in Russia, with a similar number of Russians here. A secure data link will also be set up to ensure both sides are fully in the picture all the time," said a source.

The total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $11 billion, with both sides chipping in with $5.50 billion each in the "50-50% partnership".

India, for instance, will spend $2.50 billion of its $5.50 billion share in setting up infrastructure for manufacturing plants, tooling facilities and hangars.
US$ 2.5 Billion will be spent in India but what will happen to rest of the money? Where will the small sum of US$ 3 billion = Rs. 15,000 crores go?? IF R&D is being done in India then there is no mention of setting up of Labs in India, why?

India's $5.5 billion is for "designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing".

Of that $2.5 billion is for the "infrastructure build-up".

That leaves $ 3 billion for designing, prototype development, and flight testing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2010 10:30

I hope we go for extensive changes like wings and more precision manufacture and VLO shapes , helps us learn something atleast...

we also need to step up development and JVs on sensors (aesa radar , inbuild flir & tv), ew and weapons - a good plane is only as good as its eyes and teeth. 5th gen a/c needs 5th gen sensors and weapons to justify the hype and price tag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2010 10:42

NRao wrote:And, this engine, in the design phase currently, is about 10 years away?

About 10-12 years , Cant fix a precise timeline because this engine forms part of broad new 5 Gen Engine Program to develop engine from 9 to 18 T of thrust for military and civil applictions using common gas generator.

The new engine is also the one with flat nozzle with higher thrust , probably at some time with Mark2/3 variant the PAK-FA/FGFA will get heavier.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2010 11:08

Off this budget, we should also allocate some money for building flight testing centers in India catering the one like the Kaveri flight testing done at Gramov. It is vital setup.

---

btw, this video seems a different one

--

Is this a paki site or what or is this true?

The Russian Ambassador laughed when asked about Bharati input to the design. He said “what has Bharat to offer Russia in terms of design or manufacture”. He was alluding to the fact that Russia has been producing world class fighters for the past century, whereas Bharat has yet to produce a boat, plan or vehicle which is totally manufactured in Bharat. The plane is not likely to commence production-let alone induction, before 2020.
http://www.viewstimes.com/?page_id=2

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 20 Dec 2010 13:43

SaiK wrote: --

Is this a paki site or what or is this true?
The Russian Ambassador laughed when asked about Bharati input to the design. He said “what has Bharat to offer Russia in terms of design or manufacture”. He was alluding to the fact that Russia has been producing world class fighters for the past century, whereas Bharat has yet to produce a boat, plan or vehicle which is totally manufactured in Bharat. The plane is not likely to commence production-let alone induction, before 2020.
http://www.viewstimes.com/?page_id=2

Given the use of the word Bharat- seems to be a Porki site- they tend to call us Bharati and use Bharat for India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Dec 2010 14:27

That a naval variant of the PAK-FA/FGFA (?) will be developed is a natural outcome of the project.The aircraft though larger than a MIG-29K is smaller that an SU-33.A single-seat Russian naval variant would be better for the IN than aalrger twin-seat version.This would be ideal for any larger carriers that the IN will build beyind IAC-1.If we can also develop,as mentioned earlier,an LCA MK-3 (with some degree of stealth),it could be a useful complement to the MIG-29Ks,given its size,until the larger FGFA-N arrives or even as mentioned above,a naval variant of our own AMCA when that aircraft arrives.Given the scale of ops these days and the enormous expanse of area that a carrier task force is meant to operate in,a twin-engined fighter with a larger range and endurance is preferable.Developing a naval variant of our fighter projects will be very cost-effective and provide us with a variety of platforms and options that will be most useful for the next decade+ ,when we will be operating the Vik and IAC-1,medium sized carriers.

nike · Post by **nike** » 20 Dec 2010 14:33

Given the use of the word Bharat- seems to be a Porki site- they tend to call us Bharati and use Bharat for India.

ya , agreed it is confirmed just by checking the contents and the topics mentioned in the site, it is porky site, they have tendency to use Bharat for India

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Dec 2010 08:39

Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter to fly in 2011

"We have put the deadline forward to the start of 2011," he said.

"It is important for us that the second prototype is a development of the first, not simply a repeat," he added.

Work is underway on the third prototype, incorporating even more advanced systems, he said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 09:36

Perhaps they might improve on the skin, especially on the rear over the engines.

Or as someone pointed sometime back, decrease the number of rivets and increase the surface build quality.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Dec 2010 12:47

Seems like no agreement has been signed on FGFA or MTA , there is no reference to it in the agreement signed or in joint statement , could be some serious problem ?

OT , it seems to me looking at the body language of Medvedev and MMS , MMS does not share the same warmth and personal relation with Medvedev as he shares with Obama.

I think communication could be one issue , Medvedev cannot speak or understand english and MMS does understand or speak russian.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Dec 2010 13:04

communication could only be part of the issue. though Rus top level leaders do not engage in diplomacy in english I am sure they know english excellently well courtesy the KGB school of foreign languages - batman could arrange a tutor on demand.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Dec 2010 14:04

Batman is learning english and he even sung one song in english , robin seems to be using translator in ear phone in the press conference.
They do interact with many western leaders most likely they can understand english but cannot speak fluently enough to be pally and build one to one relationship.

bhart · Post by **bhart** » 21 Dec 2010 14:16

http://mea.gov.in/mystart.php?id=190016905

Look at the Defence section

arya · Post by **arya** » 21 Dec 2010 16:31

India and Russia have signed a preliminary design contract (PDC) for their joint Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. According to a government statement, "The contract envisages joint design and development of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft with the involvement of HAL on the Indian side and Sukhoi Design Bureau and Rosoboronexport on the Russian side." More later.
bia SHIV
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/fg ... igned.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 16:59

If communication is the problem, then I am worried about the contractual agreements. As is, we have tremendous differences between our idioms and khan ones. I hope we have much more deeper look into the document for public view for analysis.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 21 Dec 2010 18:11

HAL, Rosoboronexport Sign Contract to Design and Develop FGFA

arya · Post by **arya** » 21 Dec 2010 20:14

"The aircraft to be jointly developed is termed Perspective Multi-role Fighter Aircraft "

Musbara from Sagird to Ustad =[time has come to rename this thread to PMFA]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 21:11

good catch.. so, on whose side it is having or lacking perspective?

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 21 Dec 2010 21:45

^^^^
Is that not a typo? I would think it is Prospective Multi-Role Fighter...

Perspective does not make any sense whatsoever