LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby sathyaC » 20 Dec 2010 11:03

cross posting Fm AMCA tread

PLEASE DON'T VISIT the ASIAN DEFENCE BLOG

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The owner has several viruses, spyware loaded on there.
You might compromise your location and BR Ids when you visit there.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 20 Dec 2010 14:39

We don't have too many MI-26s,as much as we would like and keeping them operational due to the very heavy workload,logistics for Himalayan regions,etc.,is adifficult task.At least another 12+ are required as lifting heavy eqpt. for the BRO required for the infrastructure development underway on the Tibetan/Chinese border is of the highest priority.The MI-26 has a payload as large as an AN-12 (!) and its rear-loading ramp allows it to even carry light armoured vehicles.

The NH-90 is being seriously looked at by the IN for our warships and has been ordered by many European/NATO countries.It is perhaps the best replacement for our Sea Kings.The US helos might be a little too long for IN hangars.Not sure whether any trials have been done during IN-USN exercises.Any info/pics on that guys? For the carriers ,the EH/AW-101 is the best,as it has greater endurance,payload and can also carry the new EW radar which rotates into the cabin from the rear ramp location.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Henrik » 20 Dec 2010 22:57

Philip wrote:We don't have too many MI-26s,as much as we would like and keeping them operational due to the very heavy workload,logistics for Himalayan regions,etc.,is adifficult task.At least another 12+ are required as lifting heavy eqpt. for the BRO required for the infrastructure development underway on the Tibetan/Chinese border is of the highest priority.The MI-26 has a payload as large as an AN-12 (!) and its rear-loading ramp allows it to even carry light armoured vehicles.

The NH-90 is being seriously looked at by the IN for our warships and has been ordered by many European/NATO countries.It is perhaps the best replacement for our Sea Kings.The US helos might be a little too long for IN hangars.Not sure whether any trials have been done during IN-USN exercises.Any info/pics on that guys? For the carriers ,the EH/AW-101 is the best,as it has greater endurance,payload and can also carry the new EW radar which rotates into the cabin from the rear ramp location.

For India's sake I hope it looks for something different than NH-90. Just mentioning "NH-90" here in Europe sends shivers down ones spine.. It's not very popular here, except if you're french of course..

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 21 Dec 2010 10:36

Update on LCH Development ( AW&ST )

Seeing Light Pg 30

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 22 Dec 2010 07:28

So next year will see 2 more prototypes added and 300 kgs of weight is the aim for weight reduction on the upcoming prototypes..the surprising aspect is that HAL is now looking for imported armoured panels on the LCH to replace "heavy metal panels" on the existing prototype. Also that the Nag HELINA is to be main anti-tank weapon of the LCH, but a stop gap arrangement of Hellfire, Spike or MBDA PARS-3 will be used.

What is good to note is the comments of the IAF officer and how the test pilots have rated its performance as being very good. That is a very important aspect as the weight and other aspects can be taken care of later- the basic performance if good, it holds promise of a very capable attack helicopter when it is finally in service.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 22 Dec 2010 08:48

it is using the ardigen engine - so room for growth in power probably. if weight cannot be reduced or goes up anyway due to sensors/weapons - option is go for a more powerful engine from turbomeca like IJT moved from larzac to al55 - this will increase the IOC timeline by 2 yrs.

http://www.turbomeca.com/public/turbome ... 06&mid=615

Ardigen seems to be a new design and they speak of a bigger Ardigen3, so maybe the ardigen1H1 can itself see 'growth version' of 150hp more each to give 300hp extra total with some minimal redesign... this will likely impact fuel economy and endurance though.

cheap and best option is to reduce the weight.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 22 Dec 2010 22:54

Singha wrote:it is using the ardigen engine - so room for growth in power probably. if weight cannot be reduced or goes up anyway due to sensors/weapons - option is go for a more powerful engine from turbomeca like IJT moved from larzac to al55 - this will increase the IOC timeline by 2 yrs.

http://www.turbomeca.com/public/turbome ... 06&mid=615

Ardigen seems to be a new design and they speak of a bigger Ardigen3, so maybe the ardigen1H1 can itself see 'growth version' of 150hp more each to give 300hp extra total with some minimal redesign... this will likely impact fuel economy and endurance though.

cheap and best option is to reduce the weight.


Singha, its the Ardiden, not Ardigen.


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 29 Dec 2010 03:42



...

If the Government of India selects the Boeing-U.S. Army proposal, the Government of India will request a possible sale of 50 T700-GE-701D engines, 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 12 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles, 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles, and 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors, rockets, training and dummy missiles, 30mm ammunition, transponders, simulators, global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, communication equipment, spare and repair parts; tools and test equipment, support equipment, repair and return support, personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to be provided in conjunction with a proposed direct commercial sale of 22 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters. The estimated cost is $1.4 billion.

...


Some interesting insights:
  • 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars - which means when operating in a group mode, the one with the radar can provide target data to others in formation. It does not need to be one-to-one ratio.
  • 1,354 HELLFIRE ATGM- significant anti-tank capability boost for the IAF
  • 245 STINGER MANPADs - this will be a new AAM capability for IAF helicopters (Dhruv WSI/LCH still undergoing R&D and not sure if IAF's Mi-25/35 have AAM capability).

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 29 Dec 2010 04:04

1,354 HELLFIRE ATGM-

I don't find that number in the pdf or in the quoted post?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby srai » 29 Dec 2010 04:09

SaiK wrote:
1,354 HELLFIRE ATGM-

I don't find that number in the pdf or in the quoted post?


:D I just added the two types of HELLFIRE being sold:

... 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles ...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 29 Dec 2010 05:37

mmm.. interesting the hellfire II 114R version is supposed to be for UCAVs per wiki!?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2010 08:29

ah64 can use it too -as the only game in town, the AH64D is sure to win this gunship deal. tiger was a no-show and Mi28N has seen nowhere near the vast investment in the ah64 program from its mk1 version onward. Hellfire is the best stick out there and getting lots of practice to 'fine tune' in Pakistan :D

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/ ... index.html

The latest HELLFIRE II model is the AGM-114R multi–purpose HELLFIRE II missile, also known as the HELLFIRE Romeo. The HELLFIRE Romeo consolidates the capabilities of all previous HELLFIRE II variants equipped with semi–active laser (SAL) seekers into a single missile that defeats a broad range of targets. From before launch to detonation, the HELLFIRE Romeo features a variety of technological improvements that boost its effectiveness and utility.

As in previous HELLFIRE II models, the HELLFIRE Romeo can lock onto targets before or after launch for increased platform survivability. But its new three–axis inertial measurement unit also enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind them without maneuvering into position. It can be launched from higher altitudes due to its enhanced guidance system and improved navigation capabilities, which increases the missile’s impact angle and enhancing lethality. A new multi–purpose warhead enables the HELLFIRE Romeo to defeat hard, soft and enclosed targets, thus allowing pilots to meet many contingencies with a single HELLFIRE loadout—it’s one missile for many missions.


The HELLFIRE Romeo integrates with all HELLFIRE II–compatible platforms and can be launched autonomously or with remote designation. Rotary–wing platforms include the Apache, Kiowa Warrior, Cobra and Seahawk, as well as the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) for Australia and the Tiger Hélicoptère d’Appui Destruction (HAD) for France. Fixed–wing platforms include the unmanned Predator and Reaper drones, as well as the manned Cessna Combat Caravan aircraft. The HELLFIRE has also been demonstrated on ground-based tripods, ground vehicles and boats.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Austin » 29 Dec 2010 08:52

I thought there was some sort of competition for the chopper deal between Mi-28N and AH-64D , I think the latter has won.

AH-64D is quite impressive piece of system and a combat proven one.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby andy B » 29 Dec 2010 10:03

Hmmm...it seems that the maulanas are taking quite an affinity towards ze Apache.

Very capable piece of kit, I have quite a few articles collect over the last few years from AFM ACM and Air Intl for the Apache mainly from a Ukstan and Khan perspective, however there is a very tasty one with the new Yehudi Saraf version in service will put em up over the next coupla days...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 29 Dec 2010 10:14

why only 12 FCRs for 22 helos?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 29 Dec 2010 10:24

To reduce costs and have 1 Longbow Apache acting as a command and control machine handing off targets to the other non radar equipped Apache. The number of Hellfires that they have listed is the significant aspect of that notification. Will allow the LCH to use them as well since we know that 3 imported types are being looked at as stop gap anti tank weapons till the HELINA comes into service.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby saurav.jha » 29 Dec 2010 11:40

The no. of missiles said to be procured indicates that Hellfire may be the stopgap measure for Helina..

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 Dec 2010 11:50

srai wrote:[*]245 STINGER MANPADs - this will be a new AAM capability for IAF helicopters (Dhruv WSI/LCH still undergoing R&D and not sure if IAF's Mi-25/35 have AAM capability).[/list]

unlikely. the kamov-50 was the first russian helicopter (in fact the first helicopter anywhere AFAIK) to advertise A2A as a targeted capability from day one. it was considered a game changer back then. this was back in the 80's when the west (mistakenly) knew the design as 'ka-126'. our hinds are much older designs that haven't seen any russian mods. I don't think the israeli upg included mating the igla.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 29 Dec 2010 12:00

Isreali upg in the late 90s IIRC had added Night fighting capability along with an improved self defence & communication capability. The price was nominal of arround 1 million $s a piece.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 Dec 2010 12:24

precisely.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby ashokpachori » 29 Dec 2010 15:37

why only 12 FCRs for 22 helos?


a radio modem integrated with the sensor suite allows D-variant Apaches to share targeting data with other AH-64Ds that do not have a line-of-sight to the target. In this manner a group of Apaches can engage multiple targets but only reveal the radome of one D-variant Apache.


But then you compromise on situational awareness without FCR:

British Apaches routinely use the Longbow Fire Control Radar in Afghanistan, stating that it improves situational awareness and avoidance of other aircraft during tactical maneuvers

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2010 16:31

for the '300' light tanks the army wants in the new mountain divs, I see some variants of the Stryker as the front runner .... mainly because american C3I and EO systems have a lot of time to 'fine tune' and 'work the niggles out' in various wars like iraq/afghanistan/pakistan while the European ones do not.



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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby S_Prasad » 22 Jan 2011 21:40


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby nits » 27 Jan 2011 22:27

India to get its choppers back from UN by June

Despite the United Nation’s reservations, New Delhi hopes the Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopters on duty with the world body’s peace-keeping missions will be at the disposal of the ministry of home affairs this June. be at the home ministry’s disposal.India wants to reinduct these assets into anti-Naxal operations. The IAF has 11 Mi-17s and eight Mi-35s in the Democratic Republic of Congo. In Sudan, the IAF has deployed six M-17s. It has 11 Mi-17s and four Mi-35 (“Firebirds”) in Goma, five Mi-17s and four Mi-25s in the . In South Central Sudan, the IAF has deployed six M-17s.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby atreya » 28 Jan 2011 23:20

Singha wrote: But its new three–axis inertial measurement unit also enables properly equipped launch platforms to engage targets to the side and behind them without maneuvering into position.


Suppose, an Apache is moving along an area. It spots a target to its 4 o'clock. Does this 3 Axis inertial measurement unit enable the pilot to fire the Hellfire as he moves along the same course, without rotating the aircraft to aim at the target?

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Drishyaman » 29 Jan 2011 10:49

atreya wrote:Suppose, an Apache is moving along an area. It spots a target to its 4 o'clock. Does this 3 Axis inertial measurement unit enable the pilot to fire the Hellfire as he moves along the same course, without rotating the aircraft to aim at the target?


If it’s an LCH at 4 o’clock, Apache will be toast. :rotfl:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 Jan 2011 16:15

B_Ambuj wrote:
atreya wrote:Suppose, an Apache is moving along an area. It spots a target to its 4 o'clock. Does this 3 Axis inertial measurement unit enable the pilot to fire the Hellfire as he moves along the same course, without rotating the aircraft to aim at the target?


If it’s an LCH at 4 o’clock, Apache will be toast. :rotfl:

+1...

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby atreya » 29 Jan 2011 17:35

I had a ground based target in mind, actually.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Drishyaman » 29 Jan 2011 17:56

atreya wrote:I had a ground based target in mind, actually.


It will be Toast again if its Akash :mrgreen:

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby atreya » 29 Jan 2011 21:47

Alright, the target is a TFTA driven T-80. :|

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby symontk » 01 Feb 2011 20:04

saw on LCH doing rounds over Bellandur at 4PM

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2011 20:05

and the IJT working through a aerobatic routine, including a total 360' vertical circle.

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby symontk » 01 Feb 2011 20:11

thought so, I heard the noise several times, couldnt check due to work

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Drishyaman » 01 Feb 2011 20:57

symontk wrote:thought so, I heard the noise several times, couldnt check due to work


Noise !! Should say "Music".
Lucky you. :)

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 04 Feb 2011 09:04

Found this pic on Militaryphotos.net forum on the Ecuadorian Armed Forces pics thread..looks like FAE representatives got a tour of the LCH when they were over at HAL. Don't know how recent it is.

Image


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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 04 Feb 2011 10:14

it looks the same as LCH TD-1..canopy doesn't seem to have been changed..and this must be an old pic only published now, since LCH TD-2 is supposed to fly during AI-11. But its good to hear that they lopped off 200 kgs in weight..


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