Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2010 11:49

shiv wrote: The actual number is a secret but my uncle's driver mentioned the number 25 million.

My unkils driber dosent tell me any thing

Must speak to him to fire the bloody guy.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 22 Dec 2010 12:15

This taken from the DRDO release will improve on possibilities,

"Taken from routine production lot during earlier user trials by Indian Army, the missile had achieved single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP)," the sources said.

they might fire a Dhanush soon onto some island in the Andamans like they did with the ship-to-shore Brahmos

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Dec 2010 14:52

SriSri wrote:Prithvi-II Ballistic Missile Test Fired from Mobile Launcher

Picture in article is of PAD ?

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 22 Dec 2010 15:13

Close to zero CEP will be a breakthrough. The missile should be produced in large numbers and placed on Paki and Chinese borders.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Dec 2010 17:41

Prithvi-2 pictures

In one picture, you can see both the prithvis (this one)

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Dec 2010 17:53

And my uncle’s driver tells me that Prithvi missile production was foreclosed in March 2009 with 40 orders unfulfilled, because better missiles were in service.

Now, who can retrieve that news article?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2010 18:01

tsarkar wrote: Now, who can retrieve that news article?

Your uncle's driver?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2010 18:05

Google unkil ij tellin me that 20 were produced in 2007. Can some one tell us how many Prithivi missile groups are in service with the IA.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Dec 2010 19:12

whats the significance of 2 missiles in 1 hour?? Is 1 hour apart really a salvo??

so what am I missing??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2010 19:45

Surya wrote:whats the significance of 2 missiles in 1 hour?? Is 1 hour apart really a salvo??

so what am I missing??

Compared with one missile per year it is a devastating salvo.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Dec 2010 19:48

rohiths wrote:Close to zero CEP will be a breakthrough. The missile should be produced in large numbers and placed on Paki and Chinese borders.

It will be..........
But not at 250-350KM ofcourse.........

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Dec 2010 19:51

Compared with one missile per year it is a devastating salvo.

It is

ashokpachori · Post by **ashokpachori** » 22 Dec 2010 19:55

Compared with one missile per year it is a devastating salvo.

First intellectual dialogue of the day.
Wisdom in a free flowing mode.
Roll the drums

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 22 Dec 2010 21:05

>>What is the meaning of this caption?
Thanks everyone.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 22 Dec 2010 21:08

koti wrote:
rohiths wrote:Close to zero CEP will be a breakthrough. The missile should be produced in large numbers and placed on Paki and Chinese borders.
It will be..........
But not at 250-350KM ofcourse.........

??
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 221000.htm

The missile, with the capability to carry both conventional and nuclear warhead, achieved a range of 350 km in 483 seconds, according to DRDO. According t o Dr V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller R&D (missile systems) and Chief Designer of the Prithvi system, the missile’s flight manoeuvres and unique trajectory makes it difficult for detection and engagement by ballistic missile defence systems. A major improvisation in the Prithvi-II system is the aided navigation, which brings the accuracy of the missile to a single digit even at a far-off range of 350 km. The naval team located at the down range ships witnessed the impact of the missile at the target point confirming the high degree of accuracy, a DRDO release claimed.

Earlier the altitude it was flown was not mentioned. We now know it is at 43.5 km.

flight duration of 483 seconds reaching a peak altitude of 43.5km during user’s trial in 2008.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2010 21:34

Prithvi II carrying 1000kg of CL-20, anyone has any projection of this explosive power and what kind of devastation it can inflict / area/ target type/ etc?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Dec 2010 21:38

i'd rather have a smaller warhead flying a longer distance
the psyops damage will be far greater...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2010 21:50

Surya wrote:whats the significance of 2 missiles in 1 hour?? Is 1 hour apart really a salvo??

so what am I missing??

Early 90s the whine was that it takes several hours to fuel a Prithvi and hence makes it cumbersome. So this test of two missiles within one hour shows they have made some progress in that area.
The 2009 test was of near simultaneous launches of two P-IIs. So these could be fuelled and ready.

....
Similarly, as part of operational exercises by armed forces, two Prithvi-II missiles, aimed at different targets at 350km from launch point of ITR were successfully launched within minutes of each other on October 12, 2009 and all mission objectives were met, sources said.

However the single digit accuarcy shows both of these were upgraded for navigation. And the peak altitude is similar to the Shourya altitude ~ 40km.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2010 22:12

Country specific psyops strategies are covered by capabilities demonstrated by various missile program. For near ICBM ranges, we have a different set of missiles. Let prithvi satisfy its intended requirements.

ashokpachori · Post by **ashokpachori** » 22 Dec 2010 22:15

SaiK wrote:Prithvi II carrying 1000kg of CL-20, anyone has any projection of this explosive power and what kind of devastation it can inflict / area/ target type/ etc?

CL-20 has double the REF that of TNT.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 23 Dec 2010 00:26

Why to test Prithvi 1000th time? Now I really think that these tests are disguise for something else............only way you can do so in the 12 million -pix- phone age. Which other nation on earth will happily bring the news of failed missile test

( as we do very often)

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2010 02:13

Pratyush wrote:What is the number of Prithvi missiles produced every year for both the IA & IAF?

Don't know the accuracy of this report, but you get some rough ideas on the numbers:

Ready to spew fire

Posted: Monday, Apr 27, 2009 at 0017 hrs IST
...

The other aspect is production—it is believed that only about 250 Prithvi missiles have been produced so far. On the other hand, China fields 600 M-11 and M-9 missiles, while the Russians field hundreds, if not thousands of SS-21 and Scuds. However, defence PSUs like Bharat Dynamics, Bharat Earth Movers and Mishra Dhatu Nigam are stepping up production of the different Prithvi variants.

For instance, the Indian Army has placed orders worth Rs 1,500 crore for 75 Prithvi-I and 62 Prithvi-II missiles, while the Indian Air Force has gone in for 63 Prithvi-II missiles for over Rs 900 crore. Indian Navy has placed orders for Dhanush missiles, the naval version of Prithvi, with a 350 km strike range, for its ‘dual-tasked’ warships, INS Subhadra and INS Suvarna.

...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Dec 2010 02:17

Some more info ...

Two Prithvi-II missiles successfully flight-tested

Two nuclear weapons-capable Prithvi-II missiles were successfully flight-tested within an hour of each other from the Integrated Test Range, Chandipur, Orissa, on Wednesday.

Taken from the production lot, the short-range ballistic missiles were tested for the full range (350 km) and fired at 8.15 a.m. and 9.15 a.m. respectively by personnel of the Strategic Force Command (SFC) as part of a regular exercise. After a flight of about eight minutes, the missiles zeroed in on pre-designated targets with a high degree of accuracy.

...
...
This was the second mission in which two Prithvi-II missiles were successfully flight-tested. Earlier, they were fired in salvo mode on October 12, 2009. However, the launch of a single missile failed in September this year when it did not take off.

...
...

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Dec 2010 03:14

Narad wrote:

This is most awesome picture - first time showing 2 missiles eager to destroy target.

Note the new Tatra based TEL vehicle - same as Smerch.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Dec 2010 05:31

Oops too late. But still...

I think that the reason to test this is:
1. User trial - the armed forces fire off the missiles,
but
2. Improvements, further Indeginization.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 11:17

all the scramjet vehicles I see seem to have a flat wedge shaped front end and a rectagular scoop air intake below.
http://www.popsci.com/bown/2010/gallery ... -waverider

note the solid fuel type rocket in pic above that presumably pushes the vehicle to a speed where scramjet combustion works...for ramjet I have heard brahmos1 gets pushed to mach2 before the solid fuel grains burn out...for scramjet not sure whats the initiation velocity.

if the brahmos2 is really planned as a scramjet to go Mach6+ in upper atmospheric conditions...it will likely look very different from brahmos1 - essentially a new missile - different airframe, control system, size, shape, ....

but the beauty could be a massive range like 2000km for a smallish platform ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2010 20:19

Folks - a bit of fun - mainly for myself. Here is my first attempt at animation using a program called "Synfig". My work is no "Avatar" but I'm hoping to get there eventually

. The blue rectangle is a ship. The red circle is a Brahmos missile in the last 10 seconds of its flight at say 500 meters per second. At 10 seconds before hitting the ship the missile is heading in a direction away from the ship. At 4 seconds before hitting - the missile is way forward of the ship and turning. Only in the last 4 seconds does the ship get a warning that this thing is going to come straight at it. Fun no? (The animation repeats endlessly)

ashokpachori · Post by **ashokpachori** » 23 Dec 2010 20:36

And that also in a top attack mode Lol..

Lacking S maneuver though

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 20:55

heh heh and most ships lack the ability to attack any ASM but those headed directly to themselves. "crossing targets" at mach3 should like a difficult challenge.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Dec 2010 20:59

not unless they have an electromagnetic railgun (pun intended)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2010 22:24

Shivji,

How come the ship survives?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2010 05:39

NRao wrote:Shivji,

How come the ship survives?

Because I have not read tutorial 3 yet.

disha · Post by **disha** » 24 Dec 2010 06:56

ashokpachori wrote:Lacking S maneuver though

Isn't the "S" maneuver akin to two "C" maneuvers reflected and on top of each other?

The point is that the missile may not make a classic "S" maneuver, it can make two "C's or a small C followed by a large C (looking like a ballooned S) and it is in 3 dimensional plane.

This makes Brahmos missile very infernal. Imagine a dozen or so is launched against a CBG? The carrier knows that it is targetted, it can even see it, but the CIWS cannot engage till the last moments and neither the other vessels in the group can take the hit on behalf of the Carrier. To be out of reach of this infernal missile, the CBG will be away atleast 250 km from the nearest missile boat. And this reduces the legs the carrier can offer.

Now, if it is air launched and paired with Mig 29k, imagine the legs at 750k radius + 250k missile (giving 1000 km). So to take out this CBG out, one has to target the carrier from beyond 1000 kms. Truely an infernal offensive/defensive system.

Wonder why US is not looking into supersonic Anti-ship cruise missile.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2010 07:11

ashokpachori wrote: And that also in a top attack mode Lol..

Lacking S maneuver though

Actually "top attack" is more suitable for anti-tank missiles (or perhaps land attack for targets in mountain valleys?). Anti ship missiles would be less effective in top attack. They would only make a hole on the deck. What one needs is a big hole at the waterline to sink the ship. "Sea skimming" does that bit well.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Dec 2010 07:50

ramana wrote:
Early 90s the whine was that it takes several hours to fuel a Prithvi and hence makes it cumbersome. So this test of two missiles within one hour shows they have made some progress in that area.

Reportedly solved by mid 90's. A birdie, fairly high flying with direct contact had told me about his interactions with Kalamji on the matter in the users capacity. DRDO managed to reduce it to about two hours or so.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Dec 2010 11:09

^^^Sirji, but what about news regarding a fueled Prithvi being good to go for seven years?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Dec 2010 11:10

shiv wrote: Anti ship missiles would be less effective in top attack. They would only make a hole on the deck. What one needs is a big hole at the waterline to sink the ship. "Sea skimming" does that bit well.

Shiv you are right in that a top attack capability may not be as effective in sinking a ship ( it will depend on the warhead too ) , but for a small supersonic antiship missile like the Kh-31 with a small warhead ( ~ 90kg ) which employs top attack capability it gives them the flexibility to attack a specific area on the ship.

For eg the radar on Kh-31 can discriminate between a bridge and flight deck and would dive attack the bridge , the small warhead cant do much damage to a aircraft carrier if it hits below the deck but if it hits the bridge it would cause mission abort for the carrier or hitting the radar mast will cause a destroyer to have limited or no radar capability , if such attack can cause secondary explosion on the target then its much better.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 Dec 2010 11:56

Shiv Saar,
I think Block II Brahmos variants tested is capable of striking one building in a cluster. It willbe interesting to visualize that with the kind of animation you have provided.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2010 12:11

Harpoon ASM has long had a top attack capability.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Dec 2010 13:16

rohitvats wrote:^^^Sirji, but what about news regarding a fueled Prithvi being good to go for seven years?

Rohitvats: Am a novice in these matters never asked that question and do not know.