Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Jan 1 2010)

[PrasadZ]

Here is some data on Onion Exports
NHRDF says India exported 11.58 lakh MT in 2010-11 against 18.73 lakh MT in 2009-10
Of course, 2010-11 is not yet done but it doesnt look like more export licenses have resulted in more exports yet
We produced 1605 lakh MT of onions in 2009-10 so it seems like exports are a minor fraction of the production anyways
I guess the loss of the Maharashtra Guj kharif crop is the primary culprit for rising prices (they are the most productive states anyways)

[disha]

Here is some data on Onion Exports
NHRDF says India exported 11.58 lakh MT in 2010-11 against 18.73 lakh MT in 2009-10
Of course, 2010-11 is not yet done but it doesnt look like more export licenses have resulted in more exports yet
We produced 1605 lakh MT of onions in 2009-10 so it seems like exports are a minor fraction of the production anyways
I guess the loss of the Maharashtra Guj kharif crop is the primary culprit for rising prices (they are the most productive states anyways)

PrasadZ thanks for the link. Somewhere there should be link on total production by year. Anyway, data does not lie and some mischief is definitely going on:

Month 2009-10 2010-11 Variance

April 238,234.00 173,845.00 -64389
May 190,602.00 154,356.00 -36246
June 159,765.00 158,283.00 -1482
July 205,072.00 179,554.00 -25518
August 186,144.00 144,860.00 -41284
Sept 141,298.00 116,167.00 -25131
October 177,962.00 98,370.00 -79592
Nov 84,220.00 133,263.00 49043

Note that for entire duration of 2010 from January to October, there is less of Onions exported compared to last year. So the overall trend for the entire year until October is that there is less of onions available for export and suddenly in November the export is positive. How much? By 58.23%!!! or @60%

Now here are the questions from layman:

1. If the overall trend is down this year., what happens in October if I issue >60% number of licenses in MT to export (assuming every license is not utilized). Will not that lead to
a. possible shortage in local market.
b. Or there is an anticipated glut in market and hence generate more demand to put a floor.

If 1.b., how do I know there is a glut in market. Did I get a call from High Command?

If this can be correlated with monthly production figure and if that figure is also showing a downward trend through the year, there is no reason to believe that there will be a glut in the market., on the contrary it might indicate that people are moving away from planting onions onto something else!

PS. Table may not show properly

[disha]

Also found this link http://www.nhrdf.com/contentPage.asp?su ... _code=109b, NHRDF report for Dec. 2010

The NHRDF has collected information on the status of onion storage in different parts of the country, crop prospects of kharif onion, arrivals and price trend of onion in different markets through its centres situated in different parts of the country. The brief report on the above is as under:-

ONION STORAGE:

The stored onion stock in the country is over.

KHARIF AND LATE KHARIF ONION PRODUCTION:

The area and production of kharif onion in the country is expected to be the almost same as that of last year. More area under kharif onion expected to be covered in Maharashtra, Punjab, Haryana, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu. However, Madhya Pradesh has less area under kharif onion due to drought prevailing in the early stages of the seed sowing. The area under kharif onion in Gujarat and Rajasthan is expected to be less because of delayed rains earlier and continuous rains later on affected the kharif onion planting. The area under late kharif crop in Gujarat is expected to be more and in Maharashtra it is expected to be almost same as that of last year. The kharif and late kharif onion production share is around 40% of total onion production.

The harvesting schedule of kharif onion has been affected due to delayed monsoon, inadequate rains and untimely erratic rains in some areas of kharif onion growing states. The kharif onion crop condition has been affected in A.ndhra Pradesh and Karnataka due to cyclonic rains in the end of October 2010 and in other states like Maharashtra, Gujarat, M.P and Rajasthan crop was affected due to untimely and erratic rains during November 2010. Overall damage to the early planted kharif crop around 30-35% in Maharashtra, 40-50% in Gujarat, 20-25% in Rajasthan, 30-40% in Madhya Pradesh were reported and 15-20% in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka in the late planted crop were reported. The arrivals in 15 major producing markets during November and upto 14 th December 2010 also showed around 35% less arrivals compared to previous year, which confirm the assessment of losses during field survey made by NHRDF in Maharashtra. Late kharif crop in the states of Maharashtra and Gujarat were also reported damaged by continuous heavy rains to the extent of around 15-20%.

RABI ONION PRODUCTION

The recent erratic and untimely rains damaged the rabi onion nursery also by about 20-25% in Maharashtra, 15-20% in Gujarat, 10-15% in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, and 15-20% in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. Overall damage to the rabi onion nursery is estimated around 15-20%, which may affect the rabi onion production in the country. The rabi onion production share is around 60% of total onion production. Transplanting of seedling will start from January 2011 onwards. Harvesting will start from end of March onwards.

The harvesting of kharif onion in Maharashtra, Rajasthan and M.P. continued and about 70-80% crop is harvested till date. The arrival of kharif onion in different markets of Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Karnataka was expected to increase during December, but because of damage to early planted kharif crop by heavy rains arrivals affected and prices increased in different markets. The harvesting of kharif onion crop in northern states i.e. Haryana, Punjab, Delhi, U.P. and Bihar started and expected to increase in end of December. The harvesting of kharif crop in Gujarat started and arrivals expected to increase from end of December onwards. The fresh onion which is coming in the markets is of medium to good quality

[Ambar]

Here's my take on the food inflation in India ( and much of Asia), but before that, lemme ask you guys a question : Much has been written about the fallacy of GoI that allowed exports of Onions while shortages were cropping up, but do you really think stopping the exports would bring the prices back to 10-12 Rs/kilo? I don't think so. Look at rice,one of India's staples; In 2006-07 when the prices started doubling every 8-10 months, the government banned exports but yet the price of a kilo of rice is almost 4 times what it was in 2005-06. And twice as expensive when the export ban was announced. Why? There seems to be a good amount of speculation at the trader' level that makes sure that food commodity prices keep crawling up.

Now about the food inflation in India : I had posted about coming food shortages in Asia a while ago,and i am sure we'll have hyperinflation and massive food shortages in the years to come.

a) While traveling through western/southern Indian states, i noticed that areas that were once massive 'food baskets' are now almost completely commercialized with housing complexes,small businesses etc.
b) Higher education which was once out of reach to most farming class families is now affordable.This has led to many youngsters in rural areas take up easier service sector jobs.
c) Look at the fields today and you'll notice a curious change : The farmers are either old men or young/older women. Well bodied young men as conspicuously missing.
d) Antiquated farming methods means same yield,this creates shortages as per/capita calorie intake has almost doubled in the last decade.
e) Massive speculation at the trader' level that ensures prices remains high / price fixing.
f) Artificial inflation. i.e. inflating prices for the sake of inflation. Though there are no shortages of certain food commodities,yet the traders/retailers have increased the prices fourfold in the last 4 years (ex: Lemon/green peppers).
g) Expansion in the M3/money supply. We need to put capital controls before it is too late.People are quick to point out that USD has lost 95% of its value since 1913, i wish someone could do a similar calculation about INR.
h) Disappearing water resources.

As more and more asians step into 'middle-class' category, we'll have higher food prices and more shortages. I've said this before and i'll say this again : If we think fighting with fighting with the Chinese for oil is gonna be messy, think about fighting for food.Next decade will be very interesting.

Btw, although there has been a steady 2-3% increase in the food prices here in Massa, a lot of local produce has remained unchanged for a while now. Why don't we see a similar trend in India?

[Arya Sumantra]

Also I really can't understand your obsessive instance to link efficient supply chains to Wal Mart. Do you think local Indian departmental stores like Reliance, Big Bazzar, Marks and Spencer etc don't have the capability to set up such chains?

Any chain business is wrong model of wealth distribution. Today no politician in North America brags that a Wal-Mart has opened in his constituency. Whereever its store opens it destroys all economy around it by closing all neighbouring shops. Big money is supposed to invest in industries/sectors that small money cannot invest in: semiconductors, Telecom, heavy engineering etc etc. These are not the areas which a small businessman can touch because of technology/industrial barrier and huge capital barrier. But which is the business that any laid out worker or unemployed or a uneducated widow starts as a livelihood source? - groceries and food selling business. In absence of such avenues of earning with big chains taking over, widows will be forced into prostitution and men into crime. Yes a few people are employed as attendants but 1) for the demand it kills it definitely employs fewer 2) a self-employed owner of a small grocery store earns more than working as an attendant.

It would be better if the biggies would just run the background supply-chain eliminating middlemen and building efficiency sake but not operate the outlets themselves.

But all this is a making hay when sun shines and a distraction from main issue. Blackmailing/Pushing for allowing the big fishes in the name of efficiency after the hoarders and commodity traders have jacked up the prices in collusion with Mr Sharad Pawar by buying cheap from us and selling back to us when expensive.

In certain commodities, Commodity traders' demand helps suppliers to anticipate demand more accurately over long terms. While this may be true of other commodities with longer shelf life, the food with its lower shelf life anyways does not allow longer horizon to remove uncertainities from. Not much advantage of their(trader's) vision and forecast as it is easier to forecast short term anyways.

As long as Sharad Pawar cannot be brought to the book there is no respite in food prices for average Indian. What can you do when your own are sold-out? It's all a big game wherein foreign economies feel your costs are too low.

[Arya Sumantra]

Now about the food inflation in India : I had posted about coming food shortages in Asia a while ago,and i am sure we'll have hyperinflation and massive food shortages in the years to come.

a) While traveling through western/southern Indian states, areas that were once massive 'food baskets' are now almost completely commercialized with housing complexes,small businesses etc.
b) Higher education which was once out of reach to most farming class families is now affordable.This has led to many youngsters in rural areas take up easier service sector jobs.
c) Look at the fields today and you'll notice a curious change : The farmers are either old men or young/older women. Well bodied young men as conspicuously missing.
d) Antiquated farming methods means same yield,this creates shortages as per/capita calorie intake has almost doubled in the last decade.
e) Massive speculation at the trader level that ensures prices remains high / price fixing.
f) Artificial inflation. i.e. inflating prices for the sake of inflation. Though there are no shortages of certain, traders/retailers have increased the prices.
g) Expansion in the M3/money supply. We need to put capital controls before it is too late.People are quick to point out that USD has lost 95% of its value since 1913, i wish someone could do a similar calculation about INR.
h) Disappearing water resources.

Add to this the mindless construction of single-storey "tennements", 2-storey and 3-storey buildings instead of sky rising towers that is gobbling up agricultural lands for construction. We are spreading too much horizontally and occupying lands that should have been used for farming. We are 15% of the world's population living on 2.5% of its land. We HAVE to go vertical and bring every inch of land into cultivation. Eliminate the concept of Floor Space Index (FSI) atleast in small towns and cities to save agri land nearby.

Now since ancient times human settlements always happened around fertile areas and near rivers and lakes. Continued increasing populations on fertile areas leads to lost food output from land buried under cities while desert like areas continue to be sparsely populated in this day and age with all water and food transport means !. Imagine what would exchanging populations of Rajasthan and UP would do to agri output?

[Pratyush]

People's republics

There are growing doubts over the sustainability of China's authoritarian model of development and greater recent praise for India's democratic version. In October, US President Barack Obama's economic adviser Larry Summers told a meeting of business leaders in Mumbai that the world in 2040 would be talking, not about a Washington or Beijing consensus, but a 'Mumbai Consensus' on economic development in the future. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao did not go as far as Summers in elevating the Indian approach above China's. But the premier ended his three-day visit to India last week by declaring that India's rise had enhanced the confidence and strength of all developing countries.

Despite praise for both systems, the common wisdom is that the Chinese approach is superior to the Indian one in one respect: poverty reduction. After all, in 1980, around 80% of people in both countries lived in poverty. In India, it is now around 22% compared to about 12% in China. The assumption is that China's State-led authoritarian model, although more menacing than India's chaotic democracy, allow its leaders to plan China's rise in a more ordered and manageable environment, to the ultimate benefit of its poor. But such an argument is less compelling than it would first appear when we take a closer look at what actually occurred since China began its reforms in December 1978.

Because China has been growing at almost 10% since 1980 (except for the 'Tiananmen Interlude' period from 1989-1992), the assumption is that the country has followed one model towards prosperity and poverty alleviation. In fact, China has actually gone through two significantly distinct reform periods.

The first was from 1979 until the Tiananmen protests in 1989. After the disasters of centralised Maoism, Deng Xiaoping did two big things. First, power was decentralised and local officials were given much more power to make economic decisions. Second, the four-fifths of the population who were peasants were allowed to use their land in any way they wanted and sell their products at market prices.

This so-called 'household responsibility' structure gave rise to millions of 'township and village enterprises' (TVE) — small-scale industries that began the industrialisation and urbanisation process. These TVEs were technically owned by the local collective but many were run like private industries. In Deng's words, this was a "completely unplanned, spontaneous revolution that took us by surprise."

But it worked. Eighty percent of the poverty reduction that occurred in China took place from 1979-1989. It had little to do with any authoritarian model or supposed authoritarian qualities, or the far-sighted long-term planning and wise counsel of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) leaders. Significantly, it was actually about the CCP relinquishing economic and social control over the country.

During this period, the de facto private sector received about three-quarters of all the country's capital in the first 10 years of reform – the reverse of what is happening today. There was no discrimination against the private sector in favour of the State-controlled one; meaning that household incomes across-the-board were rising with the tide. It was a genuine bottom-up rather than the present top-down approach.

Following the countrywide protests that almost brought down the regime, the CCP deliberately retook control of the economy from the mid-1990s onwards: favouring the State-controlled sector over the private one in key economic areas in order to prevent the emergence of an independent economic middle class. Although GDP has continued to expand at an impressive pace, household incomes have been growing at a paltry 1-3% each year even as profits in the State-controlled sector expand by 15-20% per annum. Significantly, since the rise of 'authoritarian development' in China, poverty reduction advanced by approximately 1.5% each year,meaning that China has underperformed vis-a-vis India since the latter began reforms in the early 1990s. Indeed, given the State-controlled bias that accelerated from this century onwards, poverty alleviation has remain stagnant and some studies even suggest that absolute poverty in China has actually increased.

Compared to the Indian bottom-up approach which is driven by the private sector and domestic consumption, China's top-down State-led model has created a country of some 150-200 million 'insiders' who benefit disproportionately from the fruits of economic growth. While measurements of income inequality have remained fairly constant even as India rises, Chinese society has become the most unequal in all of Asia. Although far from being a tranquil society, India does not have anywhere near the reported 124,000 instances of 'mass unrest' that occurred in China in 2009.

Even if Premier Wen and Prime Minister Singh would want to deny it, the Chinese and Indian approaches to economic development and poverty alleviation are being watched and compared by the 150 undeveloped and developing countries. Larry Summers might have been flattering his hosts in preparation for Obama's visit to India which took place in November. But the weaknesses of the Beijing Consensus mean that we will be hearing much more about the Mumbai Consensus in the years to come.

John Lee is director, Foreign Policy, Centre for Independent Studies, Sydney. The views expressed by the author are personal.

Posting in full as it deserves to be read in full. Provides a nice little contrast for us SDREs who start shivering in their Dhoties at the mear mention of PRC.

[ashokpachori]

HSBC, Hongkong is a wholly owned subsidiary of HSBC HOldings Plc, UK. My bank is HSBC, USA which again is a wholly owned subsidiary of HSBC Holdings Plc., UK

HSBC Holdings plc was founded in London in 1991 by The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation to act as a new group holding company and to enable the acquisition of UK-based Midland Bank

http://tiny.cc/ig44p

[ashokpachori]

In India merchants are responsible for massive hoarding and black marketing, dont we know that?

In this case, easily perishable vegetable can not be hoarded by merchants. Blame the government who allowed their export.

And that was the last M remaining which I did not add; Monsoon, Merchant, Market forces, Ministers.

Its 4M cabal.

[Theo_Fidel]

What are the points of the Mumbai consensus. Other than democracy.

Anyone know?

[ldev]

deleted

[darshan]

How come the water supply management is not something included in above lists to deal with irregular monsoons? What does it take to encourage population movement from fertile places to infertile places? Which ministry is responsible for stopping destruction of fertile land?
Just the few questions that ran through my mind.

[Theo_Fidel]

This one is South East Vadodara. Shows about 1/8 of city. In 2000 this image shows housing for about 400,000 people. I estimate housing for about 800,000 people in this image in 2009. Essentially doubled. Note how the roads are only extended to areas where housing has already been put up.

[ldev]

Watch it from the beginning to get the background. The India specific part starts just after 4.00. Thanks to Zerohedge.

[youtube]uPg4qTNTP-E&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[rsingh]

If India is growing at 9% then Haryana is growing at 18. I saw this with my own eye. Village near Rohtak city has disappeard. Its Panchayet disbanded. And it is prohibited to keep animals in village. Every body has job. Rohtak University has campus bigger the European quarters and NATO in Brussels. It has new Library which puts latest glass n steel buildings Amsterdam to shame. Conference hall has more facilities then best hall available in Brussels. New "Fashion Institute " being built along with new stadium. New Police academy has acquired whole village and construction going on 24 hrs.

[Bade]

but why are you sad-ji

[rsingh]

but why are you sad-ji

Bekas grass ij greener other side . I am thinking of putting tent there All changes I will have to go through

[ashokpachori]

Can you give me examples (large scale in several thousands metric tons over the permissible limit) for the following:

1. Onions
2. Garlic
3. Potatoes incl. sweet potatoes
4. Vegetables and Gourds like Brinjals, Lady fingers, different squashes and gourds (bottle/snake etc)
5. Herbs like mint/coriander and leafy vegetables like Spinach/Methi
6. Tomotoes/Cucumber/Chillies
7. "condiments" like turmeric, pepper etc.
8. Fruits (bring in your list here)

You know as well as I do, that in India we dont have cold storages as in advanced countries. Hence above question is red herring.

Talk about Rice/sugar/pulses/lentins/dried beans/edible oil and you find that periodically hoardings took place.

CM orders all-out raids on hoarders, black-marketers

http://www.reachouthyderabad.com/news/cmo44.htm

From bad to worse?
Following the severe droughts of 1980 and 1981, poor agricultural production, and
the rampant practice of hoarding and black marketing of daily necessities, the
brutal Essential Commodities Act was amended to the draconian Essential
Commodities (Special Provisions) Act.

Pawar for check on hoarding and black-marketing of essential food items

So as to check hoarding and black marketing of food commodities, the Centre has advised States to take strict action under the available laws. At present 23 States/UTs have issued orders imposing stock limits/licensing /stock declaration requirements for pulses, rice, paddy, edible oils, edible oilseeds and sugar. State Governments have reported action under the Essential Commodities Act leading to over 1.5 lakh raids and arrest of over 7700 people

http://indiacurrentaffairs.org/declinin ... overnment/

1.5 lakh raids and arrest of 7700 people speaks volume!
Its greed factor.

[disha]

You know as well as I do, that in India we dont have cold storages as in advanced countries. Hence above question is red herring.

Nah you are wriggling out. You talked about hoarding and then when asked about bringing in proof you brought in hoarding of sugar instead of talking of Onions (and other assorted vegetables). You can simply admit that the current inflation in vegetables is not due to hoarding or even lack of cold storage facilities, but simple mismanagement by people at the top. If there is lack of cold storages (it does not take much to set up one)., who should be blamed?

Now since it is proven that the inflation in vegetables is not due to hoarding, but since you brought about hoarding - you are talking about it as below:

Talk about Rice/sugar/pulses/lentins/dried beans/edible oil and you find that periodically hoardings took place.

CM orders all-out raids on hoarders, black-marketers

http://www.reachouthyderabad.com/news/cmo44.htm

Pawar for check on hoarding and black-marketing of essential food items

1.5 lakh raids and arrest of 7700 people speaks volume! Its greed factor.

Several points:

1. Greed factor never went away, it will be there as long as humans are there and communists are the most greediest.

2. 1.5 lakh raids and 7700 people arrested? It does not speak volumes, it speaks of numbers being cooked up! So 20 raids to arrest 1 person on an average? Over how many years? In one year? In 10 years? What is the conviction rates on those arrested? I can go on and on, but the number is bogus and given by whom? One of the most corrupt (allegedly) and inefficient food and agriculture minister! Funny numbers definitely: 1.5 lakh raids in one year would lead to @500 raids a day (assuming 300 working days in government offices). And it will be in news! 1.5 lakh raids over 10 years will still lead to some 50 raids a day!! That will still be news.

3. Okay they are going after hoarders - so what? Why are people hoarding in the first place (you did not answer that)? Yeah everybody is greedy, like some people prefer dollars over rupees, it is their choice. What gives people chance to hoard and make a quick buck? Mis-placed priorities? Anyway, you are not proving any points here.

Fact is that the current crisis in Onions (and other vegetables) has been due to outright mis-management (if there is a CT, then the mis-management was calculated to show SG in poor light by Pawar the F&A minister). Or we can all be blind and like all be communists blame the merchant class - oh those damn greedy hoarders and hang them high (a la Nandigram)!

[ashokpachori]

@ Disha:

The magnitude of this can be gauged by the fact that in 1995, against 80,927 raids only 2,719 persons were convicted (3.36%)and during 1996, 45,500 raids resulted in 2,177 convictions (4.78%)

Mitra, Amit and Parna Dasgupta, "Essential Commodities Act: How Essential?" Agenda for Change,
Rajiv Gandhi Institute For Contemporary Studies and Centre for Civil Society, No.1, March 1998 pp.
61-66. Research Internship Papers 2001
http://tiny.cc/4ff5m

I have said, alongwith other factors, mercahnts are responsible for jacking up the price, hence you see what you see - number of raids and arrests of traders involved (periodically).

[PrasadZ]

From here

Onion starts to cool as tomato soars, Garlic price also causes concern

Meanwhile, impact felt here

The price of onions in Singapore has gone up by as much as 100 per cent, following steep hikes in prices of onions in India. A kilo of onions cost S$1.20 just last week but now, most shops are selling them at S$2.40.
What's more, shopkeepers say, the onions that arrive in Singapore are wet and almost rotten. Indian exporters are cutting down on exports because the monsoon season has caused a severe shortage for domestic consumption.
And like many desperate shopkeepers in India, those here have also turned to onions from Pakistan. Some say, the alternative tastes different. But when they cost just a fraction of Indian onions, not many are complaining.
The price of Indian onions is expected to go down in a few weeks, when the rainy season ends.

Thankfully, the crisis seems to have ended

In the wake of a fall in onion prices in the wholesale markets across the country, the National Agricultural Cooperative Marketing Federation of India Ltd. (NAFED) on Thursday said it had deferred imports from Pakistan.

South asia feels the impact of monsoons across countries

A shortage of onions in India, a dearth of coconuts in Sri Lanka and the soaring price of cooking oil in Bangladesh are currently posing a serious challenge to the governments of all three countries.

The rational thing to do is, of course, to remove trade barriers and let geography decide the pattern of trade, as it has always done.

[vera_k]

More than onion hike, pricey protein items are the problem

Perhaps there needs to be a national movement towards eating meat to solve this. Ultimately, this lack of protein will hurt productivity.

[jamwal]

Meat is an inefficient way of feeding a population. You'll need much more land, water, grains, chemicals and other stuff to produce a quantity of meat protein as compared to veg protein.

PrasadZ
Free trade with Pakis ?

[vera_k]

Meat is an inefficient way of feeding a population. You'll need much more land, water, grains, chemicals and other stuff to produce a quantity of meat protein as compared to veg protein.

So where to get the protein from, since vegetarian sources are falling short?

[ashokpachori]

Meat is an inefficient way of feeding a population. You'll need much more land, water, grains, chemicals and other stuff to produce a quantity of meat protein as compared to veg protein.

So where to get the protein from, since vegetarian sources are falling short?

Daal/lentils/pulses are best source of protein.

There is a proverb in India:

Daal bache pal.

[jamwal]

Soyabean, pulses are good source of protein.
One of the main reasons for sources of vegetarian protein falling short is diversion of human edible food being diverted to feed animals being reared for food. I think this topic was discussed on BR too. Anyway, just to keep things simple and jog some memories; let's say an acre of land produces 100kg of grain in 3 months by consuming 1000 ltrs of water and 10 kg each of fertilizer and insecticides. That 100kg grain is enough to feed 2 people for a month.
Now if that 100kg of grain instead of being consumed by humans is fed to animals for meat, you'll not be able to produce enough meat to feed even 1 person for a week. After consuming 100kg of grain, the animal (goat, chicken, cow whatever) will produce much less quantity if food , say 15 kg. Further, raising animals is much more resource intensive and expensive than crops, even after discounting their food supply.
In addition to land being used to raise crops for their feed, animals by themselves need some space. Thus requiring more land. One more thing that further adds to the cost is time. First you need to raise the crops and then wait for animals to grow up.
It's better to use the land for raising crops than raising animals.

Fish, sea food can help, but nature can take only a limited amount of abuse. A lot of fishing grounds all over the world are now barren due to human pressure.
Dairy products are another but more sustainable source of animal protein.

[Singha]

by that yardstick the meat eating goras being physically larger and needing more air/water/food/meat/wheat/electricity to sustain themselves are a real drain on resources compared to smaller built vegans around the world or small built non-veggies like vietnamese and thais.

sooner people minimize the industrial scale meat production and consumption the better I feel.

[abhischekcc]

The real problem with human beings is that we do not consume only the things we eat, but also a lot of other things. Can a chimpanzee use an iPad, can a rhino use an Apple iBook? The amount of resources we consume is completely out of proportion wrt our body sizes.

[Theo_Fidel]

This is OT..

But most studies conclude that a balanced diet including meat is the optimum growth diet.

Esp. for Children and Women, most esp. pregnant women. Mens health is a secondary priority, at least in modern societies. Vegetable proteins are not easily digested and absorbed by our relatively inefficient digestive system. Esp. when major demands are placed on it. During childhood, pregnancy, sickness, etc. A little bit of meat is much more forgiving in terms of nutrient absorption.

The problem with the western diet is too much meat. More specifically not protein but animal fat. You can see the effect of this on the food most american's consume. The fat preserves everything. I can guarantee you will never eat a burger again. I know I don't.

Heres a burger from 1996. Yes 14 years old. Perfectly preserved. Still looks like the day it was made.

[PrasadZ]

Free trade with Pakistan?
Not something I fancy but the alternative we have today is worse.
Saarc safta does not get onions in when we have little or onions out when we have more. We have export controls n hoarding laws n costly bureaucracy to support it. Far simpler to put that money into research on improving yields IMO.
Border policing should be for bombs, not illegal onions for godssakes.

[Surya]

The problem with the western diet is too much meat. More specifically not protein but animal fat. You can see the effect of this on the food most american's consume. The fat preserves everything. I can guarantee you will never eat a burger again. I know I don't.

ha ha - sorry Theo - still eating my burgers


But then I always ate mostly from the better places than the Mcdees and whoppers and only once in a couple of weeks

Nowadays every school project seems to try this "look what happens to this burger\french fry" project

[vera_k]

In Guns Germs and Steel, Diamond makes the point that around 11,500 years ago (end of last ice age), modern humans gained an advantage over hunter gatherers by farming wheat/barley and then domesticating animals for milk/eggs/meat. The animal sources increased their protein intake over that obtained simply from plant sources. This eventually resulted in an increase in productivity to the point where people were inventing new technologies, and ultimately culminated in colonisation by the people with greater productivity (i.e. modern humans as against hunter gathering tribals).

So in the presence of widespread malnutrition and lack of protein in India, makes me think that a generalised move to meat sources may be required.

[disha]

by that yardstick the meat eating goras being physically larger and needing more air/water/food/meat/wheat/electricity to sustain themselves are a real drain on resources compared to smaller built vegans around the world or small built non-veggies like vietnamese and thais.

sooner people minimize the industrial scale meat production and consumption the better I feel.

That is correct. In 2009 Discovery magazine, there was this graph - how much the world population will consume if they all behave like:

1. US - 5.7 Earths
2. Indians - 0.6 Earths

Yes, there are complications in crunching into such simple line numbers, but the point is that the consumption level at least in US is unsustainable.

[jamwal]

IMHO, India will do much better without any kind of trade links with a failed and hostile state like Pakistan. Just look at what happened to Kashmiris who wanted to trade with Pakis.

[ArmenT]

Here's an article that talks about why the 12 year old burger didn't develop any mold. The author replicated the results using a made-from-scratch burger as well, so it isn't anything that McD's adds to their meat.
http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/201 ... sults.html

[sanjaykumar]

Hmmmm....a high meat diet is one of the obvious markers of class in the West along with obesity and education.

The middle classes eat more muscle meat, the working classes more organ meats and the epiclass is starting to eat little meat-self-styled vegetarians, Buddhists, and interestingly CEOs.

[sanjaykumar]

Here's an article that talks about why the 12 year old burger didn't develop any mold. The author replicated the results using a made-from-scratch burger as well, so it isn't anything that McD's adds to their meat.


There is a fair bit of water in the burger. Water activity is a more germane issue.

[ashokpachori]

IMHO, India will do much better without any kind of trade links with a failed and hostile state like Pakistan. Just look at what happened to Kashmiris who wanted to trade with Pakis.

Au contraire


India is much bigger economy who would have positive trade balance with our nefarious neighbours if you think strategically.

Let the (official) trade begin!

[shynee]

---OT. Deleted---

[disha]

Hmmmm....a high meat diet is one of the obvious markers of class in the West along with obesity and education.

The middle classes eat more muscle meat, the working classes more organ meats and the epiclass is starting to eat little meat-self-styled vegetarians, Buddhists, and interestingly CEOs.

And associated issues with above: Early puberty article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38600414/ns ... parenting/