Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[sanjayc]

^^ The main culprits were the generals and defence ministry bureaucrats who were pimping for Russian gun. They just commandeered the politician for their purpose and were firing from her shoulder

[rohitvats]

Could you please post this on Twitter too Rohit? The larger community of Indians must get to know about the huge lost opportunity and the sabotage by political actors with support from other quarters?

I'm actually working on a thread which shows the kind of screw-up which happened with respect to artillery procurement. Especially, how the UPA-1 & 2 stymied the induction purely because the new bofors gun came at the top. But it will take few days. Tied up with other things.

[suryag]

Smt Renuka Chowdhury during those days famously remarked she had good knowledge of artillery systems as her father was in the Army.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/Renuka ... 397272.cms

[abhik]

I find it far more believable that the hidden Russian hand nixed Bhim (Arjun itself was nixed, one can guess by whom), rather than it being a grand conspiracy theory to disarm the forces. If something is bought then everyone's (at least most) palm's are greased, if nothing is bought only "marketing" money is spent.

[ramana]

Ramana Sir,

I was watching a video on use of Arty in direct fire mode in the US Army as well as the Canadian Army.

One interesting thing that was mentioned is that when using arty in direct fire mode the charge used us different?

Does that resonate and if it does then could you please share your knowledge.

Regards

S

I don't know what they mean. Should be the normal one. But the sights need to be sighted for direct fire mode.

Let me research and ask around.

[Manish_P]

Had read that in some types of charges (in the US military) there is flash reducer chemical element added. While the addition of this composition reduces the propellant amount (thereby impacting range), it also lessens the visibility of the muzzle blast, which is useful in direct fire engagements where you and the enemy can see each other..

There are some basic details about various charges at this website

The PDF file link under 'Source' on that page has more detailed info about projectiles, charges, fuzes etc

[Kanson]

Are we attempting for desi excalibur(indian version) rounds? It will be an wonderful attempt if it happens.

[Rakesh]

Upgrading the ubiquitous 105mm IFG
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/53 ... uitous-ifg
13 August 2020

by Shwetabh Singh

[ramana]

Upgrading the ubiquitous 105mm IFG
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/53 ... uitous-ifg
13 August 2020

by Shwetabh Singh

The quick fixes are FCS and the PGK Fuze for accuracy.

Also for 120mm mortar

[A Sharma]

Bharat Forge artillery gun in final trials before sale to Indian Army

One of four artillery guns developed by Bharat Forge is learnt to have reached the final stage of testing with the Indian Army.

During a recent analyst call after the announcement of the Pune-based company’s June quarter financial results, a top official said that all four gun platforms developed by it are in various stages of trials.

“We have gone through four sets of trials for the first gun and three sets of trials for the second gun. Once the last phase of trials is over we are ready for the sale process to begin,” said Amit Kalyani, Deputy Managing Director, Bharat Forge.

“All the products that we are making are 100 percent local — they are 100 percent designed, engineered and developed locally. Three artillery guns are in advanced stages of testing. One is in the final stage of testing — it has gone through all the tests; it is the user test which is now going on this month,” Kalyani added.

The Indian Army is reportedly looking to procure about 150 ATAGS. Depending on the add-ons and the level of technology, each ATAGS can be priced up to Rs 15 crore, said Kalyani.

[Vips]

Per a AV report User trials to start soon of the 155 MM 39 calibre gun all steel ULH that was developed on the request of CDS Bipin Rawat as a Mounted Gun System on a Ashok Leyland Mark 4 to enable quick mobility on Mountainous Terrain

Mounted Gun System is required YESTERDAY at the LAC.

[ramana]

Per a AV report User trials to start soon of the 155 MM 39 calibre gun all steel ULH that was developed on the request of CDS Bipin Rawat as a Mounted Gun System on a Ashok Leyland Mark 4 to enable quick mobility on Mountainous Terrain

Mounted Gun System is required YESTERDAY at the LAC.

Where is the clap icon!!! Note its not the titanium versions!!!

[Rakesh]

Per a AV report User trials to start soon of the 155 MM 39 calibre gun all steel ULH that was developed on the request of CDS Bipin Rawat as a Mounted Gun System on a Ashok Leyland Mark 4 to enable quick mobility on Mountainous Terrain

Mounted Gun System is required YESTERDAY at the LAC.

Where is the clap icon!!! Note its not the titanium versions!!!

[Rakesh]

[ramana]

Great. The logjam of ordering from an Indian private supplier is the biggest monument to break.
THE CDS has been quite forthright in making sure such logjams don't obstruct the services capability.

[Vips]

As per the restricted list ULH cannot be imported from Dec 2020. So if army requires anything beyond the 140 M777 Guns, then Bharat Forge may get additional orders for its titanium ULH (Weight 4.8 Tons)

[A Sharma]

First rockets produced by private sector successfully test fired

The Pinaka rockets were tested at a firing range in Pokharan on Wednesday and achieved the desired results by accurately hitting targets. The rockets have been manufactured by the private sector after a technology transfer agreement with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

[Pratyush]

Finally, we are moving in the right direction.

In the early part of the last decade I had given up on the Indian army getting any new 155 mm guns. But today we seem to be drowning in domestic 155 mm designs completing trials.

What a change in direction.

[KSingh]

Bharat Forge artillery gun in final trials before sale to Indian Army

One of four artillery guns developed by Bharat Forge is learnt to have reached the final stage of testing with the Indian Army.

During a recent analyst call after the announcement of the Pune-based company’s June quarter financial results, a top official said that all four gun platforms developed by it are in various stages of trials.

“We have gone through four sets of trials for the first gun and three sets of trials for the second gun. Once the last phase of trials is over we are ready for the sale process to begin,” said Amit Kalyani, Deputy Managing Director, Bharat Forge.

“All the products that we are making are 100 percent local — they are 100 percent designed, engineered and developed locally. Three artillery guns are in advanced stages of testing. One is in the final stage of testing — it has gone through all the tests; it is the user test which is now going on this month,” Kalyani added.

The Indian Army is reportedly looking to procure about 150 ATAGS. Depending on the add-ons and the level of technology, each ATAGS can be priced up to Rs 15 crore, said Kalyani.

So confirmation that the 155/52 ATAGS with a 25L chamber (the largest in its class) is down to 15 tons as BF had said they would do. Where are all those lobbyists and critics who were attacking ATAGS as overweight becuase the first prototype was 19-20t now? For comparison the 155/45 Dhanush (Dhanush-45) is 13t, ATAGS outranges it by almost 15km, well worth the 2t weight penalty.


This is a seriously seriously impressive and world class piece of kit, let’s hope the army makes good on the 150 unit LSP order that’s has been cleared by DAC already and thereafter quickly commits to the full 1500+ requirement and lets BF set up some SERIOUS capacity (>100/year)

[nachiket]

Finally, we are moving in the right direction.

In the early part of the last decade I had given up on the Indian army getting any new 155 mm guns. But today we seem to be drowning in domestic 155 mm designs completing trials.

What a change in direction.

Even back then there used to be one or the other set of guns in trials all the time during all the failed attempts at procuring artillery. Now we actually have 3 different 155mm guns being actively inducted - Dhanush, K9 Vajra and M777. I sincerely hope these new trials also lead to actual orders, especially for the truck mounted guns, desi ULH from Bharat Forge and ATAGS. They also need to up the Dhanush orders to 414 from the initial 114. Dhanush can replace all the 400 FH-77's guns which we had acquired. ATAGS will then equip new regiments.

[idan]

Bharat Forge is a very engineering excellence driven company. Not only Babasaheb but his son Amit too is very hands on engineer. I have never met an industrialist who is such hands on and with such thorough knowledge in manufacturing technology and process. Their products are extremely well-engineered and GOI should use their services more often to carry forward the ‘Make in India’ mantra.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/techn ... 25541.html

[k prasad]

X-posting from the Intl. Military Discussion thread, in relation to ATAGS... here's hoping high and low that brochuritis doesnt set in and MoD/IA now demand that ATAGS demonstrate 90+ km range.

Rheinmetall Sets Three New Distance Records for Indirect Fire in South Africa

At a test fire event on 6 November at the Alkantpan Test Range in South Africa, Rheinmetall demonstrated its extensive expertise in the world of indirect fire.

In the presence of international partners and customers, the Düsseldorf, Germany-based defence contractor proved how new technologies can be used to boost the performance of systems that are already in extensive use around the world – those which meet the NATO standards set out in the Joint Ballistics Memorandum of Understanding (JBMoU) as well as non-JBMoU systems.

During the event, three new maximum effective range records were set using various guns.

- A G6 howitzer with a 52-calibre gun achieved the longest range ever attained with a conventional 155mm artillery round: 76 kilometres;
- the 52-calibre gun of PzH2000 self-propelled howitzer lobbed a shell 67 kilometres.
- Finally, a field howitzer with a 39-calibre gun attained a range of 54 kilometres.

...

Coupled with technologies from Rheinmetall Waffe Munition and Nitrochemie, Rheinmetall Denel Munition artillery shells exceed previous maximum effective ranges when fired from any conventional 155mm artillery system currently in use.

The maximum range of over 76 km was achieved with a non-JBMoU-compliant gun. This gun served as evidence of the feasibility of a new howitzer with a range of 83 km.

Working in close cooperation with the German procurement authorities, Rheinmetall plans to develop and manufacture a new 155mm gun of this type, which will feature a significantly larger chamber and a longer, 60-calibre barrel.

The gun should be able to fire existing JBMoU-compliant rounds as well as new ammunition families. On the one hand, these new ammunition types will be optimized with respect to stresses occurring in the new gun, but will also be able to be fired from legacy JBMoU-compliant guns.

Here, 83 kilometres serves as the benchmark, since the course correction fuse necessary for precision at these ranges reduces the attainable range by approximately ten percent. This means that the maximum effective range of 75 kilometres specified by the German procurement authorities is attainable.

[vera_k]

^ Based on the specs, they are just catching up with ATAGS, and won't be in production for years.

[k prasad]

What about the range demonstrated?

[vera_k]

Still not a system anywhere near production. At worst, a project to enhance range can be undertaken. Plus, it seems the extra range is achieved not by changing the gun, but by changing the charge. In which case, it can be replicated with a different gun.

[Prem Kumar]

A noob pooch. The recent article (quoted above) talks about ATAGS having a self-propelled speed of 20 Km/hr. But isn't the "T" of ATAGS stand for "Towed", which implies there is no self-propulsion.

Is it a misquote or am I not understanding correctly?

[manjgu]

i think i saw the ATAGS move on its own steam in delhi r day parade holding area...

[nachiket]

A noob pooch. The recent article (quoted above) talks about ATAGS having a self-propelled speed of 20 Km/hr. But isn't the "T" of ATAGS stand for "Towed", which implies there is no self-propulsion.

Is it a misquote or am I not understanding correctly?

It has an APU which can be used to move it for short distances on its own power. The Dhanush also has an APU made by BAE. I am not sure who makes the APU for the ATAGS. The original FH-77B Bofors gun had a Volvo APU that allowed a max 7km/h speed.

[Aditya_V]

A noob pooch. The recent article (quoted above) talks about ATAGS having a self-propelled speed of 20 Km/hr. But isn't the "T" of ATAGS stand for "Towed", which implies there is no self-propulsion.

Is it a misquote or am I not understanding correctly?

It needs to have the capability to fire and scoot from counter artillery. However it cant move 20km or 50km, it needs fat to change battle locations. Plus it will need ammo trucks etc.

[Kanson]

^ Based on the specs, they are just catching up with ATAGS, and won't be in production for years.

Very true!

For Boat-tail, BT rounds:

Rheinmetall L52-23l w New charge - 35 km (in 2019)
ATAGS L52-25l for HE-BT, Range - 37.2 Km (in 2017)


Now, for HE-BB(Base bleed) rounds:

Rheinmetall L52-23l w New charge - 47.37 km (in 2019)
ATAGS L52-25l for HE-BB, Range - 47.2 Km (in 2017)
ATAGS L52-25l for HE-BB, Range - 48.2 Km (recently w Kalyani shell)

Before ATAGS, normal ranges achieved w L52-23l guns are:
BT rounds - +28 km
BB rounds - ~40 km
Denel G6 L52-25l for BB round achieved - ~44 km.
This is some general gist.

[Kanson]

Rheinmetall Sets Three New Distance Records for Indirect Fire in South Africa

The maximum range of over 76 km was achieved with a non-JBMoU-compliant gun. This gun served as evidence of the feasibility of a new howitzer with a range of 83 km.
[ The Gun mentioned above used for benchmarking is Denel G6 L52-25l.]

Working in close cooperation with the German procurement authorities, Rheinmetall plans to develop and manufacture a new 155mm gun of this type, which will feature a significantly larger chamber and a longer, 60-calibre barrel.
[Reason they are thinking of a new gun is G6-25l gun w new improved charges gave very erratic results. And the stability of the gun were also of concern using the new charge.

Q is, If the results of the new charge in Denel G6-25l gun is such, what could be the total effectiveness of the new charge in existing Rheinmetall L52 & L39 guns which is quoted here?

Achieveing range is one parameter, what about other performance parameters of the gun w improved charge?]
..........

Here, 83 kilometres serves as the benchmark, since the course correction fuse necessary for precision at these ranges reduces the attainable range by approximately ten percent. This means that the maximum effective range of 75 kilometres specified by the German procurement authorities is attainable.

[Aditya_V]

The Germans even world war 2 had very long Rail guns, but quite frankly beyond a range, it makes better sense to have guided Pinaka type rockets than having bulk long range tube artillery.

[k prasad]

Yep... the news reports are somewhat misleading for the laymen readers like me... the shells fired were Velocity Enhanced Artillery Projectile (V-LAP), in other words, rocket-assisted projectiles.

Does anyone know if we are working on developing similar shells? I'd love to see the kinds of distances the ATAGS can achieve with them.

[nam]

DRDO TOT'ed Pinaka to Solar industries, 5 years back! If Pinaka can be tech transferred, lots more must have been transferred.

Hopefully we will see the fruits of these efforts soon.

[Vips]

Yep... the news reports are somewhat misleading for the laymen readers like me... the shells fired were Velocity Enhanced Artillery Projectile (V-LAP), in other words, rocket-assisted projectiles.

Does anyone know if we are working on developing similar shells? I'd love to see the kinds of distances the ATAGS can achieve with them.

Everybody missing the fact that it is longer 60 caliber Barrel compared to the 52 on the ATAGS.

[brar_w]

The Germans even world war 2 had very long Rail guns, but quite frankly beyond a range, it makes better sense to have guided Pinaka type rockets than having bulk long range tube artillery.

It really doesn’t for all use cases (not unless everyone can afford to co-locate rocket artillery with every gun they is deployed). Extending the range of artillery is a complicated process and always done via a combination of upgrades to the projectile, gun and other supporting gear. It allows stand off range which provides safety and protection from counter fire and allows more concentrated artillery to be delivered without having to frequently move to avoid targeting. Similarly, the ability to hit pin point targets is a major tactical dilemma for the enemy they he cannot ignore when either creating an offensive plan or trying to defend. Furthermore, it also opens up additional uses for artillery on missions where the guns would have to take a back seat to airborne capability - like rotary winged assets. Think missions like CAS with danger close. Or even suppression of C2 or air defense missions. So if you can hit at longer ranges, and do so with high precision then it is a force multiplier and is actually cheaper on a per-effect basis than a lot of the other alternatives available in certain tactical situations. This allows you to "buy" a tremendous amount of capability and flexibility in peacetime and use it wartime.

The IA has the Excalibur rounds which are capable of 70 km range, with an appropriate gun, and have already demonstrated pin point accuracy at 60+km range. They should offer excellent precision strike with the 52 cal guns. And the enemy must realize that while the IA units may not exclusively fire the Excalibur, the mere fact that they can is a major source or headache for them given how they plan their fortifications and other defenses or how and where they place their command and control capability. Range, but more importantly accuracy at range, allows 155 mm guns to contribute in ways they presently cannot and be a major source of pain to the enemy in terms of it having to account for long range, highly accurate shots that may come down range and against which most air defenses won’t really work. The day isn't far when guided 155 mm rounds, similar to the excalibur, will be able to autonomously attack moving targets. Think of the possibilities that opens up given the guns and the platforms already inducted or planned.

[k prasad]

Yep... the news reports are somewhat misleading for the laymen readers like me... the shells fired were Velocity Enhanced Artillery Projectile (V-LAP), in other words, rocket-assisted projectiles.

Does anyone know if we are working on developing similar shells? I'd love to see the kinds of distances the ATAGS can achieve with them.

Everybody missing the fact that it is longer 60 caliber Barrel compared to the 52 on the ATAGS.

Check the table in this page saar... they specify that its 39 cal field gun and the PzH2000 52 cal SPH.

[nachiket]

They seem to be testing the new VLAP rocket-assisted shell. You will achieve amazing range with it from nearly any 155mm gun.

[k prasad]

Yeah... like I said, its like a bit of cheating. Its really a world record for the shell, rather than the gun itself. A more accurate comparison would be with Base-bleed vs base-bleed shells; basically, any shell that doesn't have an active propulsive component.

[brar_w]

Yeah... like I said, its like a bit of cheating. Its really a world record for the shell, rather than the gun itself. A more accurate comparison would be with Base-bleed vs base-bleed shells; basically, any shell that doesn't have an active propulsive component.

This is not an Olympic record level of standardization and no one gets a medal by claiming X Y or Z . The user had a requirement for its chosen systems to be able to shoot beyond a particular range. They are working through the technicalities to get there. At the end of the day each user has its own doctrine and requirement from tube artillery for things like range, accuracy and mobility which depend upon a whole host of factors. NATO and many non NATO users want the ability to shoot beyond 70 km and a few options are available depending upon how much accuracy you desire at those ranges and what types of targets you are aiming to defeat. Based on these parameters various options are available including RAP rounds and even more exotic projectiles. The USDOD for example has launched sub-caliber hypervelocity projectiles off of M777 howitzers (they did this in 2017/18) though the program remains shrouded in secrecy so we are unable to see the range and accuracy metrics on it for varius caliber 155 mm options (the developer estimates it to be able to shoot beyond 80 km from 155 mm tube artillery).

BTW, that PzH2000 record of 67 km is likely already broken, since the US Army has tested its XM1299 and XM1113 RAP out to 70km and will continue to go beyond as the first operational unit equipped with this combination is expected in 2023. The XM1113 is going to come standard with a LR-PGK kit so will be GPS assisted. Even the Excalibur has hit a stationary target with pin point precision out to 65 km and they aren't done with the max range testing yet so it too will likely be certified for accurate shots out to 70 km with an appropriate caliber 155mm gun. The added range is via a combination of munition, gun, and propellant. And this is just scratching the surface. We should see 120-150 km 155 mm tube artillery shots by the end of the 2020s. Going the distance isn't the hardest part. Maintaining the accuracy, while still being resilient, and without breaking the bank, is. The farther you go the more you have to course correct and the more opportunity you give your enemy to disrupt your guidance. This is a technical and cost imposition that the developers have to overcome.