The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

[Pranav]

1/ Varna structure is hierarchical. This is the premise that destroyed Bharat then and now.

Just as in a school, a class 12 student is not superior to a class 1 student, similarly, no Varna is superior to any other.

But there is a process of evolution during which the Tri-Guna mix changes. The Tamasic individual evolves through Rajasic and Sattvic states and reaches a state of Self-realization, which is beyond the Varnas.

Varna is based on this Tri-Guna Prakriti.

[RajeshA]

What impact Varna has in current social context, when we have universal suffrage, access to education, equal opportunity to pursue a career of interest and so on?

Well bringing back Varna seemed to be ShauryaT ji's aim and he advocated a State role in its management. So the topic started.

Even if Varna is gradually becoming irrelevant as a criterion, caste still have some institutionalization through reservations. But Varna still plays a role in identity and a sublime role in social status. In poorer and rural sections of society, it is still a dominant marker.

The case against Varna is however to do with
a) Negating the proselytizing propaganda by Christianists and Islamists which does work on many weaker as well as confused sections of society.

b) Making Sanatan Dharma a dominant global alternative to Westernism, Christianity, Islam and Marxism!

The last straw we want to break seems to be the institution of marriage. The trends indicate we are doing this as well. I am literally seeing Brahmin born boys/girls not having any interest in Brahminical rituals and are marrying outside the caste and living a non-brahmin lives. Similarly Sudra born boys/girls living a Brahmana lives, marrying into Brahmana families and raising children per Brahmana ethos.

Here my concerns are:
a) All abide by the 16+ Samskaras!
b) There should always be people who are willing to devote themselves completely to following certain cultural traditions, e.g. the Brahmanical rituals.
c) The Vedas should be preserved as Mankind's heritage.

Once the laws are changed to remove mentioning of Caste in govt forms and associated affirmative actions, the old caste system will go into history completely.

Then we will be practicing our internal varnas without any social pressure or responsibility (because there is no varna based responsibility).

Perhaps this will be a society of Bji's proposal where every individual can display different varnas at different times without any social pressure or categorization.

As you say, Varna should be an individual's own sense of self. I am against any social role for it!

[RamaY]

As you say, Varna should be an individual's own sense of self. I am against any social role for it!

Pls contemplate what you are wishing for.

All social interactions are nothing but individuals reflecting/interacting with other individuals. Society is nothing but a collective term for all individuals that it represents. Given 1.2 billion individuals in our society, these patterns pop up sooner than later.

All articles of Law are nothing but the segregation of acceptable and non-acceptable individual renderings only.

[devesh]

^^^
enough contemplation has been done. too much, in fact. when you start assigning societal roles for categorized Varnas, thereby excluding some from certain roles, it's a recipe for long-term disaster. that is how we developed a "scavenger caste" and a "hair-cutting caste" and a "dress-tailoring caste" and a "carpentering caste", and many others.

too much specialization. too narrow a field of vision. inability to perceive or even think of broader and "grand" strategic interests b/c one's sphere of activity becomes exclusively his own "varna", which has become so narrow.

[RamaY]

Devesh garu

I am all for anything we want, even mass conversion into Islam if that helps the nation.

Varnas are 4 only. Castes will remain in their '000s of manifestations.

[RajeshA]

As you say, Varna should be an individual's own sense of self. I am against any social role for it!

Pls contemplate what you are wishing for.

All social interactions are nothing but individuals reflecting/interacting with other individuals. Society is nothing but a collective term for all individuals that it represents. Given 1.2 billion individuals in our society, these patterns pop up sooner than later.

All articles of Law are nothing but the segregation of acceptable and non-acceptable individual renderings only.

The Society can of course be modeled on Purusha - The Great Consciousness, Consciousness itself, the Human Consciousness, and just as Consciousness can be understood as composed of four faculties - Brahmin (intellect/creativity), Kshatriya (decision), Vaisya (self-awareness/self-interest) and Shudra (application/affect), so too can the society be considered as composed of these four faculties.

Problem however occurs, when one says this person in society does the role of Brahmin, and that one Vaisya, etc. This is like saying one neuron in the brain is responsible for intellect and another for self-interest, etc. One would be doing untold harm to society should one try to model it at that level.

A whole cross-section of people in society in various capacities take part in some activity whose granularity is defined by some terminology and it is categorized as belonging to one of the four faculties. When looked at it this way one may be able to map some faculty to a collective activity but one cannot assign that faculty to all those who participated in that activity, not anymore than one would mark which neurons played some particular role in a thought even though the thought itself may be assigned a faculty.

[Agnimitra]

All articles of Law are nothing but the segregation of acceptable and non-acceptable individual renderings only.

Problem however occurs, when one says this person in society does the role of Brahmin, and that one Vaisya, etc. This is like saying one neuron in the brain is responsible for intellect and another for self-interest, etc. One would be doing untold harm to society should one try to model it at that level.

Fantastic analogy RajeshA ji. In fact, the idea of the holonomic brain (or "holographic" brain) in terms of its distribution of memory and other functions is taking hold over conventional theories of structural segregation of brain functions. Essentially this conceptual dispute is about the philosophy of the relationship between natural structure and function.

Earlier scientists used to think that functions were segregated to parts of the brain structure, and that if you lobotomized a certain segment of the brain the person would simply lose certain memories. Now that's proving to be a false assumption, because it turns out that any one memory is somehow stored in a holographic pattern. If you cut a holographic film into two, you can reproduce the whole image from each piece - though the image may be of reduced size or quality.

I wonder if the original RgVedic purusha-sookta hymn is a sort of pre-formative anthropomorphic depiction of abstract characteristics - exactly like the way the "homunculus" is used in modern biological and cognitive sciences.

BTW, I am re-posting my test-case here for comment. Whoever has a theory of varNa - please explain how it would fit here:

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If "necessity is the mother of invention", then is it appropriate to tell someone "you are best suited for this type of external work and not for that type"?

Consider this case: A Vedic sanstha is starting IT education project for poor youth. Their policy is that Vedic revival should be married to spread of technological skills in Arya society. But should they first be researching the youth's varNa before training them all for this same job? Or in this case does sheer necessity override everything else? Will this training and job provide a platform where they can contribute to society in other ways?

Note: If a particular theory of varna is true, then it must be true at all stages of the purushaarthic development process. IMHO it is hypocritical to say, "Well right now India needs aarthic expansion before we can implement so-n-so concept of varNa. So anything that aids aarthic expansion right now is great, even if people have to do stuff that is not aligned with their varNa (as defined by so-n-so theory)."
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[RamaY]

Problem however occurs, when one says this person in society does the role of Brahmin, and that one Vaisya, etc. This is like saying one neuron in the brain is responsible for intellect and another for self-interest, etc. One would be doing untold harm to society should one try to model it at that level.

But that is how nature is. Sections of brain perform specific functions. I dont know if all neurons perform all tasks in times of emergency.

The modern society is exactly that. A judge cannot do police job, police cannot be a doctor and so on. It takes much focus, retraining and hardwork for a person to move across social responsibilities. And we do not see any policeman complaining that he cannot give judgements in the court even though he is the one catching the culprits and collecting all the evidence to prove the crime.

I would like to make two points and leave this topic.

1/ You say that westerners studied our scriptures hard and deep and identified these one or two weak points. I doubt that. If not varna system they would have used south-north divide or man/woman divide or rich/poor divide. For an enemy everything it a possible mechanism to weaken the opponent. It should be our strategy to be confident of and protect our identity and system. This system is formed by us, for us, and with us. How can it be a weakness all of a sudden?

Islam tried more tactics than Britishers for a longer time. But could they defeat us? Who is winning now?

2/ Our counter strategy is always there. Our seers are from all Varnas. Our scriptures never made anyone more important than the other. Following one's swadharma made them more powerful than kings, brahmrshis and even God.

Instead of being ourselves, we are trying to be someone else. At the end we will neither be us nor them, but a bunch of slaves.

Uttishta Bharata (for Satya_Anveshi garu)

[Pranav]

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If "necessity is the mother of invention", then is it appropriate to tell someone "you are best suited for this type of external work and not for that type"?

Consider this case: A Vedic sanstha is starting IT education project for poor youth. Their policy is that Vedic revival should be married to spread of technological skills in Arya society. But should they first be researching the youth's varNa before training them all for this same job? Or in this case does sheer necessity override everything else? Will this training and job provide a platform where they can contribute to society in other ways?

Well they may test for IT aptitude. Which does correlate in a way to the Tri-Guna Prakriti / Varnas. For example, to write software a minimum capacity for concentration and abstract thinking is required, which might be difficult for an individual who is always on the plane of Tamasic sensual indulgence.

But IT work does not really need a commitment to social good or righteousness. Nor does it need a desire for spiritual growth. So for IT proficiency you don't really need Sattvic or higher Rajasic qualities.

Note: If a particular theory of varna is true, then it must be true at all stages of the purushaarthic development process. IMHO it is hypocritical to say, "Well right now India needs aarthic expansion before we can implement so-n-so concept of varNa. So anything that aids aarthic expansion right now is great, even if people have to do stuff that is not aligned with their varNa (as defined by so-n-so theory)."
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Well perhaps we can be open to the possibility that certain models could be partly correct.

[member_20317]

I would like to make two points and leave this topic.

1/ It should be our strategy to be confident of and protect our identity and system. This system is formed by us, for us, and with us. How can it be a weakness all of a sudden?

2/ Our counter strategy is always there. Our seers are from all Varnas. Our scriptures never made anyone more important than the other. Following one's swadharma made them more powerful than kings, brahmrshis and even God.

We acknowledge that:
1) as a constituent all 3 Gunas & all 3 Doshas are present in everybody;
2) time, place, circumstances are unique to every individual/organism fully understandable by only that individual/organism;
3) existence of an individual is in several layers all of which combined form the individual;
4) dharm is based on dik and kaal and for the purpose of understanding the yog of the world around us and the basic objective itself may change;

to me it looks consequential to state that varnas too can get expressed in various combinations in any individual.

Note this does not negate the existence of varnas nor does it undermines the basic methodology that identifies the existence of varnas. This also does not prevent specialization when/where it is needed. But we need something to explain and support the multifarious abhivyakti of a man's deeds and tap into this freely available but underemployed resources. This must be freed up and the methodology of identifying varnas remains valid for supporting this explosion of life around us. Only the restrictions artificially imposed (which were valid at one time) are abandoned to resolve themselves at their own pace in the light of changed circumstances.

This is not an argument for proving varna as a weak point. This is an argument for using varna further along the learning curve.

[Pranav]

varnas too can get expressed in various combinations in any individual

Varna is not a fundamental concept.

It is a derived concept that is based upon the 3 Gunas. The Gunas can be considered fundamental, natural attributes of individuals.

Varna is an attempt to map these fundamental attributes to inclinations and capabilities.

[member_20317]

Pranav ji, for one please do not be afraid of questioning what is fundamental. In my personal conclusions I am always hitting a wall as to what is fundamental. Gunas as they are mentioned in literature like BG are Guna-samuh and even there despite what you call fundamental the relation is dynamic and not mutually exclusive. Tamas is a temporary depression of Satva and Rajas so on & so forth. Tamas is not one particle they are talking about.

More importantly for our case, I am specifically talking about 'expression' which clearly implies it is not getting treated as fundamental. Treat this as waves going up so the boats too are going up. The base for even the waves being the ocean, the base for the ocean being something else and so on. For me I am not yet made up on whether Gunas are fundamental, much less the expressions.

[Pranav]

Gunas as they are mentioned in literature like BG are Guna-samuh and even there despite what you call fundamental the relation is dynamic and not mutually exclusive. Tamas is a temporary depression of Satva and Rajas so on & so forth. Tamas is not one particle they are talking about.

I do agree that Gunas are time-varying and are not mutually exclusive. Each individual has all 3 Gunas to varying extents, and these extents change over time.

[RajeshA]

The modern society is exactly that. A judge cannot do police job, police cannot be a doctor and so on. It takes much focus, retraining and hard work for a person to move across social responsibilities. And we do not see any policeman complaining that he cannot give judgments in the court even though he is the one catching the culprits and collecting all the evidence to prove the crime.

In order to make my argument somewhat clearer, let's take the example of Provision of Justice. Provision of Justice is according to me providing leadership, decision, how the society needs to deal with a situation. It is in fact a "kshatriya" faculty.

All those who participated in this process, the judge, the jury(?), the policeman, the forensic scientist, the software developer for the criminal records management system, the architects and builders for the courtroom and the police-station, the cleaners who keep these buildings clean, the plumbers who ensured sewage and drinking water, the cooks in the cantine, those who appointed the judge, all contributed to produce "Provision of Justice" - a kshatriya activity!

Would it be proper to then call all the participants 'kshatriyas'?

At the society level, various faculties - Brahmin (intellect/creativity), Kshatriya (decision), Vaisya (self-awareness/self-interest) and Shudra (application/affect) express themselves over a larger scale, over a larger granularity than simply the work of a single individual, i.e. if we try to model society in the same way as we do Purusha, the consciousness.

1/ You say that westerners studied our scriptures hard and deep and identified these one or two weak points. I doubt that. If not varna system they would have used south-north divide or man/woman divide or rich/poor divide. For an enemy everything it a possible mechanism to weaken the opponent.

North-South, Man-Woman, Rich-Poor Divides are not theological. Those are fault-lines along which one can exploit a people politically, break a country, etc.

The British in fact used the Arab-Turk fault-line to break the Ottoman Empire. That however is not an attack on Islam's doctrine! No Arab became Christian, no Turk became Christian!

The attack on Hindus, besides through many other means, is also doctrinal - it is on Sanatan Dharma via "Hinduism", which means large swathes of Bharatiyas have changed their civilizational allegiances - to Christianity, to Islam, based on these doctrinal attack vectors.

It should be our strategy to be confident of and protect our identity and system. This system is formed by us, for us, and with us. How can it be a weakness all of a sudden?

RamaY ji,

if it were the case, not so many would have chosen to desert and not so many would have chosen to distance themselves from it.

This view you're referring to is an elitist view that it was formed by us, meaning by ALL of us. It was formed by the powerful, who wanted to institutionalize their power and domains, and they manufactured some divine sanction for this undertaking for as such there was none. Nobody asked a Sudra whether he would like to be called a Sudra all his life, and whether he agrees that the next 400 generations of his would remain Sudra! There is no "by us, for us, with us" here.

As I said, we should protect the baby (or the parent) of this civilization - Sanatan Dharma, and we should get rid of the feces the baby produced in the bathwater. There is no question that we should be confident about Sanatan Dharma, but we are being told that there is no baby worth saving, that everything is simply shitt by the others, because of the feces sticking to it in the bathwater.

The feces is NOT part of the baby and can be removed, so that the baby can shine through!

Our detractors want that the feces remain in the bathwater, that we keep the feces there, because that is their sales-pitch for proselytizing.

Islam tried more tactics than Britishers for a longer time. But could they defeat us? Who is winning now?

RamaY ji,

Islam has taken over substantial parts of the Indian Subcontinent. Even in India, where the Hindus were dominant, the Islamic imprint is increasing. So who has won, and who has lost is still up in the air! And it will depend on our own moves! And mind you this is in OUR HOME, not in Arabia that we are fighting this out!

2/ Our counter strategy is always there. Our seers are from all Varnas. Our scriptures never made anyone more important than the other. Following one's swadharma made them more powerful than kings, brahmrshis and even God.

If you're saying seers are from all Varnas, then I guess you're in this case additionally ascribing heredity to Varna-based social divisions. Were it not so, one would have imagined they were all "Brahmins" with Brahma Jñāna.

Some like to think of Varnic social divisions as Guna and Karma-based only!

In any case, I don't ascribe to either!

The Swa-Dharma when understood as the Karma Yogic path to "God-Realization" is of course open to everybody in Sanatan Dharma. The issue is whether this Swa-Dharma is chosen or externally imposed. If it is externally imposed, then Swa-Dharma may not align with one's Gunas, and one may not be able to realize it fully.

Instead of being ourselves, we are trying to be someone else. At the end we will neither be us nor them, but a bunch of slaves.

Well actually if we are labelled with a Varna, saying that fulfilling it is our Swa-Dharma, then actually we may not be ourselves, as we may be getting straitjacketed.

But I believe you're speaking from a civilizational perspective.

I can only say, that we are talking ourselves into believing that other than sticking a label on everybody's forehead in the form of Varna, Sanatan Dharma has nothing more to offer to our civilization, and IMO, there can be nothing further from the truth.

Varna as social divisions is a social experiment, an application of a philosophical concept spoken of in Sanatan Dharma and for a long time it may have served us, but Sanatan Dharma does not stand or fall depending on everybody having a 'Varna'.

In fact getting rid of social divisions would rid us of the mental shackles and make Sanatan Dharma again a spiritual and intellectual "force of nature" capable of storming the world.

[RajeshA]

All articles of Law are nothing but the segregation of acceptable and non-acceptable individual renderings only.

Problem however occurs, when one says this person in society does the role of Brahmin, and that one Vaisya, etc. This is like saying one neuron in the brain is responsible for intellect and another for self-interest, etc. One would be doing untold harm to society should one try to model it at that level.

Fantastic analogy RajeshA ji. In fact, the idea of the holonomic brain (or "holographic" brain) in terms of its distribution of memory and other functions is taking hold over conventional theories of structural segregation of brain functions. Essentially this conceptual dispute is about the philosophy of the relationship between natural structure and function.

Earlier scientists used to think that functions were segregated to parts of the brain structure, and that if you lobotomized a certain segment of the brain the person would simply lose certain memories. Now that's proving to be a false assumption, because it turns out that any one memory is somehow stored in a holographic pattern. If you cut a holographic film into two, you can reproduce the whole image from each piece - though the image may be of reduced size or quality.

I wonder if the original RgVedic purusha-sookta hymn is a sort of pre-formative anthropomorphic depiction of abstract characteristics - exactly like the way the "homunculus" is used in modern biological and cognitive sciences.

Carl ji,

thank you for pointing this out. I remember to have read some of this earlier.

another analogy perhaps one could use is the process of gene expression in various cells - transcription, translation, etc...!

[ShauryaT]

I normally do not like to quote western authors on issues related to India. However, one exception is David Frawley a.k.a Pandit Vamdev Shastri. He is a "Hindu" guru par excellence. A great resource for those challenged in Indic tongues. (on a side note, I want to research on the topic of the degradation of the practice and teaching of vedas with the decline of Sanskrit as a common language). David Frawley along with Sri Aurobindo, Swami Dayananda Sarasvati of Arya Samaj, Swami Chinmaya, Pujya Dayananda of Arsha Vidya, Ram Swarup are some of the resources I use to understand the nature of SD. I have just started dwelling into Purva Mimamsa and Yogasutras.

David Frawley is one such amongst the gurus, who I have developed complete faith on, partly because of his writings and partly because his gurus were people like Sri Ram Swarup.

It is extremely important that an understanding and evolution of a Bhartiya vision is grounded in the practices and thoughts of SD. Reaction to everything under the sun will only get us distracted and a chicken without a head. Attached is a sample article on this sage advice from Frawley.
New school of thought

Towards a new school of thought

India needs a different type of scholarship, an Indic school of thought that has its own values, traditions and methods of reaching conclusions. Those of us who follow the Indian civilization should develop this Indic school in its own right and not merely try to justify our views in terms of the Western or European school of thought, which is hostile and radically opposed to Indic cultural tradition.

[svinayak]

Aurobindo said this long before almost century ago. Vivekananda said this in different words

[RamaY]

brihaspati garu,

isn't somewhere also written in our scriptures that we need to fight adharma, so if we also start chopping off heads, wouldn't that too be "freedom of religion"?

It is. The only problem is the pu$$ilanious definition of Dharmic-tamas that people fell into.

[RajeshA]

RamaY ji,

would be good to hear your ideas on this! Perhaps you could elaborate on this - Dharmic Tamas!

[RamaY]

Kayasthas

According to the Hindu scriptures known as the Puranas, Kayasthas are descended from Chitragupta Maharaj, the deity responsible for recording the deeds of humanity, upholding the rule of law and judging whether human beings go to heaven or hell upon death.

Varna status

Source: Article in Navya magazine

Kayasthas claim, unlike other Varnas that came from Head/Shoulders/Waist/Feet, that they came from the entire Body of Brahma

The exact varna status of Kayasthas has been a subject of debate.[6] According to multiple accounts, they are a literate and educated class of Kshatriyas,[7] and have been referred to as a twice-born caste "whose claims to Kshatriya status need not be caviled at".[8] Other sources rank Kayasthas even higher than Kshatriyas, referring to them as "a caste between Brahmins and Khatris"[9] and "a mixed caste" that includes Brahmins and Kshatriyas.[citation needed] Some Kayasthas have claimed Brahmin status, though this has been challenged by other Brahmin groups.[10]

In Bengal, Kayasthas, alongside Brahmins, are regarded as the "highest Hindu castes"[11] that comprise the "upper layer of Hindu society".[12]

In Maharashtra, the Chandraseniya Kayastha Prabhu claim Kshatriya status through descent from a Kshatriya king of the Haihaya clan.[13]

In northern India and Pakistan, Muslim Kayasthas are descended from members of the Hindu Kayastha community that converted to Islam during the 15th-16th centuries.[14]

During the British Raj, British courts classified Kayasthas as Shudras, based largely upon the theories of Herbert Hope Risley. However, the Kayasthas of Bengal, Bombay and the United Provinces forcefully and persistently challenged this classification, producing a flood of books, pamphlets, family histories and journals to support their position of holding Kshatriya rank.[15]

Some of the significant figures of the Indian independence movement were Kayasthas, including the spiritual leaders Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo, and the revolutionary leader Subhas Chandra Bose

Kayasthas that have risen to prominence since independence include the country's first president, Rajendra Prasad, and its second prime minister, Lal Bahadur Shastri.[2]

Read More: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1423827

[Agnimitra]

Kayasthas

Kayasthas claim, unlike other Varnas that came from Head/Shoulders/Waist/Feet, that they came from the entire Body of Brahma

Response here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1423841

[RamaY]

Kayasthas (who claimed to have born from entire Body of Brahma unlike Chatur Varnas) became Brahmins, between Brahmins & Kshatriya, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas and Shudras in past 3000 years

Carl garu,

The purpose of the other thread is to prove that all castes (family lineages) went thru all Varnas (chatur Varnas) throughout the Bharatiya history.

Given that information a given generation (any generation for that matter) can feel comfortable to whatever varna they are currently in because it is their family's current avatar and their future generations will move on to other Varnas as needed/preferred.

This answers RajeshAjis question of "Varna system doesn't understand the love of a man for his progeny".

In our quest to fulfill the demand to have all four Varnas in a single life we are negating/diluting a key foundation of SD, punarjanma! I hope we are not weakening our civilizational strengths in order to convince/empower current generation.

Pranav garu,

Tri-gunas are absolute like Rudradevji's 10.2. Without Karma, the gunas themselves are simple state of being (Satva - Saraswati, Rajo - Lakshmi, Tamas - Parvati).

Karma without gunas is again absolute karma - like the karmas animals, elements do.

The mix of Guna and Karma is what makes Varna, actions that can be channeled for social good.

[Agnimitra]

The purpose of the other thread is to prove that all castes (family lineages) went thru all Varnas (chatur Varnas) throughout the Bharatiya history.

Given that information a given generation (any generation for that matter) can feel comfortable to whatever varna they are currently in because it is their family's current avatar and their future generations will move on to other Varnas as needed/preferred.

In our quest to fulfill the demand to have all four Varnas in a single life we are negating/diluting a key foundation of SD, punarjanma! I hope we are not weakening our civilizational strengths in order to convince/empower current generation.

Thanks for explaining that RamaY ji. I believe your point is valid in general. Different castes, nations, races and humanity itself can cycle through different varNas with time. In most cases, spiritual evolution can be seen in an inter-generational perspective.

However, it still does not preclude persons in any caste -- wherever it currently sits on the varna chart -- to want to move in a different direction in their life itself.

This answers RajeshAjis question of "Varna system doesn't understand the love of a man for his progeny".

The jAti-varNa system doesn't understand love, period. A man's love for his progeny is just one type of love, and that can act in positive or negative ways on his progeny. E.g., the ignorant "love" of a high caste father may forces his son into one set type of karma although the son wishes to explore and express another type.

Or through enlightened love, men can change by discovering more fundamental aspects of themselves.

Therefore, while your statement is true, it is not complete. A varNa system must allow for this movement across the chart. Not everyone will avail of it -- and I'm inclined to agree (in principle) that the circumstance of one's birth should be considered very seriously as something that one must not disregard in terms of one's life's ambitions. One who disregards the straight path of Destiny will go astray.

However, at the same time it is a natural spiritual human urge to share something good (that is civilizing) with others and to bring them to a new platform in a way that benefits them and society as a whole. Therefore, in a healthy Dharmic society, every generation should also have examples of people who go across varNas -- coming "upwards" or diving deep "downwards". In either case they benefit themselves and society. This "convection current" in society is a symptom that Dharma is alive and the flames are rolling beneath the pot as the mantras are chanted.

In the above para I said that some individuals who move across varNas will do so "downwards", which is to their and society's benefit. I thought of a story to illustrate this concept of basic purpose behind varNa:

Imagine one is on a paradise like shore of a lake or ocean. One's Teacher throws one into it in order to learn something about being in water and swimming, etc..., but as a practical "goal" of this game He says your task is to get a pearl in an oyster shell which is down below in a reef.

A baby is a natural swimmer. But if the person thrown in is an adult, then at first one is spashing about at the surface, gulping air and water in equal amounts. Its pretty messy, one is seeing the light, but one is afraid of the water, and one cramps up. Gradually one may sink down below, after the proverbial three dunks underwater. One may lose consciousness. Now imagine that as one is sinking down away from the air and light, the Teacher shows up underwater! He grabs you and starts to pull you up, towards the surface. He teaches one to relax and not cramp up in fear, and one finds that the water is actually one's friend, because it buoys your body up naturally. You can now see the light draw closer, and the finally gulp air. But the task is not yet complete - getting the pearl.

After recovering, one must learn to swim - First at the surface. Then underwater. Then even deeper, where pressure may be much greater. For each of these qualitatively different levels, different skills, tools and techniques are needed. On the surface, being able to violently swing one's arms and legs may do the job. To swim while keeping one's head or body underwater needs some 'pranayama' practice. to then learn to swim not across the lake but to be able to dive down into increasing pressure means that one has to learn new diving and swimming techniques - the opposite of relaxing and being buoyed up. so again new techniques. Finally, because one's body may not be able to withstand pressure and there is no light at deepest levels, one may need some oxygen tanks, torchlight, body suit, etc as additional tools. Having learned all this, one can then get the pearl and then come out.

I think of the guNas and karmas (and hence varNas) as different sets of attitudes-skills-tools-techniques for different levels here. One has to learn the whole package in order to complete the task. Therefore, it is logical that not just entire jAtis, but individuals will explore more than one varNa in one lifetime. The functional gradations of varNas can be seen w.r.t. (a) the qualitative circumstance (guNa) - depth level, amount of pressure, light, etc.. and (b) the action required for the purpose of the game (karma) - swimming across, downward, relaxing and floating upward, relationship of fear, breathing, etc, etc.

[RamaY]

^ And such individual movement is not hindered in Varna system, ever. Our whole Puranas are about such movements - how/who/what-happens when these movements occur.

The Varnas are general rule set of our Bharatiya society. It gives the individual the starting point (Karma) and then the individual does his own karma to move around.

Even in modern India (or elsewhere) the initial conditions are set in by birth - ones nationality, religion/faith, language, financial status and so on. How is it wrong for one to have a birth varna but it is ok to have a birth religion - when the individual have freedom to move across either of them as one wishes?

How is it ok for non-Bharatiya intellectuals claim that very position by birth (Christian/civilized/western whatever) but call it a weakness of Hindu dharma and we accept it without any question just because some of us fell for that trap?

And another thing that is being discussed here that I am not sure of is that "somehow it is Hindu's responsibility to be squeaky clean before they can attempt anything and claim to be Hindu".

[Agnimitra]

^ And such individual movement is not hindered in Varna system, ever. Our whole Puranas are about such movements - how/who/what-happens when these movements occur.

Yes.

Even in modern India (or elsewhere) the initial conditions are set in by birth - ones nationality, religion/faith, language, financial status and so on. How is it wrong for one to have a birth varna but it is ok to have a birth religion - when the individual have freedom to move across either of them as one wishes?

Because 'varNa' as a concept has rightly or wrongly come to be understood as immutable and set by 'God'. Therefore, at the very least it is better to assign varNa after one's graduation as per the 16 samskaras as Atri ji explained on this thread earlier. After one's education in all curricular and "extra-curricular" activities (karmas) some general idea can be composed of a person's varNa. Then, based on that varNa, appropriate resources or opportunities can be directed towards him/her. This way, finances, power, and even type of religion/faith can be consciously subordinated and re-composed around the determined varNa. Instead, if you set varNa by birth, then varNa is not consciously subordinated to these other factors, and remains on the same level as them.

The whole purpose of varnashrama is to make sure that the demands of the ego are subordinated to those of the soul. Demands of the ego are connected to the body, and in the material world these have a natural advantage. The demands of the soul have to be made to expertly "ride" the demands of the ego.

But the rider is different from the beast, and must have the freedom to start, change and stop it, or change animals. He is not tied to the beast. Tying varNa to jAti/birth is like tying the rider to the beast, and giving the beast a whip to set it off at a gallop! Not very intelligent no? - though in an emergency situation when the rider is half-unconscious, that may be a way to get him back to SHQ.

[Agnimitra]

Plato, in his Utopian Republic, elaborates on how to implement a Greek version of varNa. But the fact is that his prescription is so ..."idealistic" (about human nature) ...that it only leads to a totalitarian state. Historically this has proven so. Philosophically, he ultimately comes to the conclusion that moral values such as justice, truth, etc have no absolute sense whatsoever. Practically, he suggests a system of selection and nomination with certain votes more valuable than others, etc. Its something to keep in mind in terms of discussing implementation of varNa.

Also saw this post by Bijushet on the TSP thread:

My observations after recently finishing reading up on George Orwell's Animal Farm:

The original commandments were:
1.Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2.Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3.No animal shall wear clothes.
4.No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5.No animal shall drink alcohol.
6.No animal shall kill any other animal.
7.All animals are equal.

After years of manipulation, violence, killings and eventual take over of the Farm by the Pigs the new commandments :
the changes made in the early years:
4 No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.
5 No animal shall drink alcohol to excess.
6 No animal shall kill any other animal without cause.

Few years later when pigs learnt to walk on 2 legs:
1) & 2) "Four legs good, two legs better!"

Eventually many years later when pigs dressed and behaved like humans
7) "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

I'm finally understanding a point that Atri ji made a few pages back on this thread - India needs some inter-generational changes before we can even have a real discussion on varNashrama, its meaning and application. In the meantime, India needs massive expansion in educational and economic capacity. It also needs at least 2 generations of prevalence of Sanskrit 2.0. After a common Sanskritized platform with a healthy economic base is achieved, then there will be more fellow-feeling and sense of being in the same room, to be able to discuss the meanings and application of varnashrama. Otherwise on BRF I find that different people are stuck in their views based on the background they are coming from, and the discussion doesn't really change those views. This is true even between people who both claim to love the Vedas, and so is much more so for others in Indian society. JMT.

[RamaY]

Carl garu, which god are you talking about?

The Hindu God of Purushasuktam is formed when you combine the head (Brahmana) shoulders (Kshatriaya) Weist (Vaisya) and Feet (Sudra), making Bharatiya society the Virat Purusha. Now do you understand why the abrahamics cannot accept Bharatamata treated as God in Vandemataram?

There is no God ordained in Hindu Dharma, where we understand everything as a God-aspect.

Why should I worry about some idiotic impositions on my Hindu dharma by Abrahamics and change my identity to appease them or some misguided Hindus?

Varna-Ashrama-Samskara are intertwined in a subtle way. Removing one or more from them and still expect to have the Hindu Virat Purusha as is not logical. It has nothing to do with individual falling/following in to a specific social strata. It is a framework for people to do their duty without losing their connection with universal consciousness; which is Hindu dharma.

Varna Ashrama Dharmas offer a set of Entry as well as Exit barriers. This is to ensure that the society doesn't end becoming too gray and gravy. It will be like not having any set requirements or responsibilities for any social role, be it judge/police/teacher/soldier/leader/doctor etc and expect them to step up to the task as needed and somehow ensure a good level of synchronization with other sections of society.

This is a recipie for disaster.

[Pranav]

The mix of Guna and Karma is what makes Varna, actions that can be channeled for social good.

In this context, when talking of Karma, one has to go beyond outward actions and look at inner thoughts, motivations.

[RamaY]

^ Ofcourse. That is what happens often.

Most of the crimes receive punishment based on combination of the two.

Similarly positive actions too. Often in our careers our superiors accept our mistakes when they are convinced of our intentions.

Then there are some karmas that have hidden motivations, which may never come out. Abrahamics leave it to god, who will throw you to heaven or hell based on.

In Hindu dharma, you will face the consequences in terms of initial conditions to your future scenarios. Your intellect is your judge. The combination of individual and universal intellect is called Dharma.

[RamaY]

RajeshA garu,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamas_(philosophy)

"O Arjuna, nescience, inertness, neglectfulness and also illusion; when these arise tamas predominates." (BG 14:13)

When the understanding of Dharma ends up in nescience, inertness, neglectfulss and also illusion it becomes Dharmic Tamas. This does indeed sound Dharmic but in reality it is Tamas all the way.

This is the state of Arjuna at the beginning of MB war. He pulled up all arguably dharmic reasons for not doing anything purposeful.

On the other hand Tamasic Dharma would be personification of Veerabhadra and Kali.

P.S: Our Harbans garu has been preaching this Dharmic Tamas threadbare.

[harbans]

P.S: Our Harbans garu has been preaching this Dharmic Tamas threadbare.

Ramay, talking of Dharma, you don't mind lying through your teeth do you? Quotations from Bhrihadraranyaka and Taitreya on Dharma are Tamas Dharma, right?

[Pranav]

The mix of Guna and Karma is what makes Varna, actions that can be channeled for social good.

In this context, when talking of Karma, one has to go beyond outward actions and look at inner thoughts, motivations.

^ Ofcourse. That is what happens often.

Most of the crimes receive punishment based on combination of the two.

But then the question comes where do motivations come from. Why would one person be motivated by sensual indulgence, a second person motivated by the idea of running a big business and a third motivated by spirituality? Beyond environmental influences, it is the inherent Gunas which are expressed through thoughts, motivations and outwardly through actions. And certainly there is a some of each Guna in each person.

[RajeshA]

Shame: Individual Shame for the Collective

RajeshA garu,

Dharmic Tamas

"O Arjuna, nescience, inertness, neglectfulness and also illusion; when these arise tamas predominates." (BG 14:13)

When the understanding of Dharma ends up in nescience, inertness, neglectfulss and also illusion it becomes Dharmic Tamas. This does indeed sound Dharmic but in reality it is Tamas all the way.

This is the state of Arjuna at the beginning of MB war. He pulled up all arguably dharmic reasons for not doing anything purposeful.

On the other hand Tamasic Dharma would be personification of Veerabhadra and Kali.

RamaY ji,

thank you!

P.S: Our Harbans garu has been preaching this Dharmic Tamas threadbare.

There is of course a thread in GDF started by shiv saar dealing with "Shame", but I thought that in this context, I'll just post my understanding of this "Dharmic Tamas". The current discussion context on which I commented earlier [1] [2] [3] [4].

When one approaches Dharma with a predominant Tamasic Guna of "Shame", it creates interesting psychological urges in the individual.

I'll comment on "Personal Shame" later. Also one can speak of "Collective Shame" as was institutionalized in Germany after WW II. However there is also "Individual Shame for the Collective" which can have many negative consequences. This is something which it seems is quite wide-spread in some circles of Indians.

"Individual Shame for the Collective" is actually a conscious effort of the mind to put a sattvic or a rajasik layer on top of the tamasic guna. It is tamasic because there is a host of factors which keep the mind tamasic.

"Individual Shame for the Collective" manifests as a three stage process:

1. The tamasic mind accepts the claims of moral superiority of the alien civilizational system due to inferiority complex based on a host of power equations and public rhetoric.
2. The tamasic mind develops shame for the own collective.
3. The tamasic mind always looks for equality and acceptance but never superiority, so it seeks equality and acceptance of the own collective but mostly for his own person from those he considers morally superior. He seeks equality by trying to prove that one's collective also has a similar moral values based foundation, and he seeks acceptability by trying to purge the own collective of what makes it unique and thus different from the other - its cultural moorings. The whole exercise is always directed towards finding approval from the morally-superior others.

Basically it is not much different from a servant, a butler trying to put on nice clean ironed clothes to find the master's approval but nothing so fanciful that one sticks out from the setting.

Often the individual does not want to accept that he suffers from an inferiority complex, because in his view he is seeking equality, parity and has not simply accepted his "inferior status".

There are actually three different ways in which this "Individual Shame for the Collective" manifests whether one is looking for absolution, i.e. equality and acceptance from the other:

1. Only for his own Person: Examples of such people are DIE, Macaulayites, Yuppies, WKK, Dhimmis, etc.
2. Only for his own Tribe: Casteism is a direct consequence of such shame, for often it leads one to try to put distance between one's own caste and those who for some reason are considered below one's own, so as to endear oneself to those who one considers higher and more entitled. The tamas is tried to be hidden under rajas.
3. For one's whole Civilizational Collective: This tamasic mentality leads to "Moral Values Extremism" and contempt for one's culture.

I believe we have been seeing some of this last Shame here and in some other threads.

[harbans]

Rajesh Ji, we will see about who is propagating what Dharma. The truth will remain irrespective of your rants. This is what i had written on March 8th 2012 wrt an advrt and the italian issue:

That ad taken out by EU, i think we deserve it. I have repeatedly asserted that our future lies in uniting under a Dharmic banner. But we just fail to internalize and institutionalize that. The ad clearly is appropriating our own and 'civilizing' us barbarians by using the uniting peace and calm that Dharma brings about. The insensitive part is not the racist thing, it's appropriation of our symbols. Europe knows deep inside they have been civilized by Dharmic memes from our past that got about the enlightenment. Today China, Europe want to appropriate Dharma in their limited way of understanding whilst depicting us as barbarians. But then we are as we move away from the Dharmic meme to no meme at all as reflected in our present governance.

Look at the case of the Italian soldiers, i am certain at some point of time we will buckle because it is the 'Chanakyan' thing to do as all of EU will be against us. I have repeatedly pointed here why India even under International law is correct in trying the Italians. These points despite multiple articles on this have never made it into one mainstream media publication. Today 'Chanakya Niti' has become the fundamental rallying base point. The root Dharma has been given the short stick.

We have abandoned Dharma, and if we continue to do so, China and EU/ West will appropriate it, which they are directly through the ad and civilizing us. All around we are having signs that the barbarians are appropriating what is ours in a contorted manner..how long will we resist seeing what is so clearly visible.

The Shame shoe may be on the other foot. Your outward bravado just a mask. There may be more truth there than the honesty within to acknowledge.

[harbans]

With respect to that above post this is what you wrote:

The more publicized this case gets, the prouder the Indian would be that we acted according to our law! Sure there would protests from EU. WE start calling them uncivilized. WE start calling them barbaric for the killings. WE start calling them barbaric for not respecting the law.

Your response was rooted in moral high ground that of calling another barbaric and uncivilized. Why would you then be so hypocratic to think the other cannot call you uncivilized and barbaric also?

This was your little prediction:

The case reminds me a little of the Raymond Davis case in Pakistan. In the end, Pakistan had to let him go. India cannot do the same!

So a year later in retrospect have the shame and honesty at the minimum to acknowledge how wrong you were.

[harbans]

To your post i answered again:

Rajesh Ji, there is no need for anything Chanakyan regards the Italians. There is international law. It's clear that the Right to Innocent passage for the Italians finished when they fired and killed INdian fishermen within India's contiguous zone. India under international law even reserves the right to hot pursuit in such circumstances. I have mentioned all those in the links a few posts above. So we harp on the Truth nothing else. And if the investigations by chance do show the Italians innocent, we free them with a big hearty apology and compensate them. But let us stick to the simplest Dharmic strain here which is what will get us respect and let us focus clearly on the matter: Truth. And the Truth is even under International law India is permitted to try them. Lets stick to that and forget Chanakya for this.

And this:

Rajesh Ji, i say this because a lot of people interpret Chanakya niti = 'Cunning". And not necessarily strategy. Many interpret it as obfuscation and deceit being OK towards Gain. With those interpretations (cunning, obfuscation, deciet) being prevalent, the danger becomes in losing track of core Dharma. More often than not those that employ Chanakya Niti end up using these techniques not for guarding Dharma but for material gains, warding off tough decisions that ensue as a result of pursuing turth etc. Political and Strategic decisions when looked through Chanakyan lenses gradually begin to give the stick to Dharmic principles.

If people had struck to this simple advice, and not some clever by half chanakya niti we would not have faced what we are facing today.

All this from a year ago. No the shoe is on the other foot. The Tamas is elsewhere for sure.

[harbans]

And then there is one aspect of Chanakya niti that you chose to ignore as Tamas Dharma:

Kshamayaa dayayaa premnaa soonritenaarjavena cha
Vasheekuryaajjagatsarvam vinayena cha sevayaa

One can bring the whole world under one’s influence (power) by such sterling qualities as patience (or forgiveness), kindness, love, truth, straightforwardness, humility and service

[harbans]

This is the kind of rhetoric that constitutes what a banana republic exhibits:

There should be only one sjudgment that the courts should pass on those Italians - Guilty! And the sentence should be capital punishment for those Italians - death by hanging!

So if this sort of sentiment is prevalent and public over various fora, why would one blame Italians trying to get their naval personal out of clutches by hook, crook, moral low ground or high ground? They are justified in using every means available to get their personal out. This is the kind of sentiment that emerges from an inferiority complex, Shame in the strengths of one system or the will and courage to correct it's shortcomings objectively. This is the same shameful behaviour exhibited by the hordes who torch Christian homes in a huff of pride over some allegations. They don't care about any process they just want blood, the issue is pre judged. That tendency to prejudgement is what Tamas is about.

[RajeshA]

Rajesh Ji, we will see about who is propagating what Dharma. The truth will remain irrespective of your rants. This is what i had written on March 8th 2012 wrt an advrt and the italian issue:

That ad taken out by EU, i think we deserve it. I have repeatedly asserted that our future lies in uniting under a Dharmic banner. But we just fail to internalize and institutionalize that. The ad clearly is appropriating our own and 'civilizing' us barbarians by using the uniting peace and calm that Dharma brings about. The insensitive part is not the racist thing, it's appropriation of our symbols. Europe knows deep inside they have been civilized by Dharmic memes from our past that got about the enlightenment. Today China, Europe want to appropriate Dharma in their limited way of understanding whilst depicting us as barbarians. But then we are as we move away from the Dharmic meme to no meme at all as reflected in our present governance.

Look at the case of the Italian soldiers, i am certain at some point of time we will buckle because it is the 'Chanakyan' thing to do as all of EU will be against us. I have repeatedly pointed here why India even under International law is correct in trying the Italians. These points despite multiple articles on this have never made it into one mainstream media publication. Today 'Chanakya Niti' has become the fundamental rallying base point. The root Dharma has been given the short stick.

We have abandoned Dharma, and if we continue to do so, China and EU/ West will appropriate it, which they are directly through the ad and civilizing us. All around we are having signs that the barbarians are appropriating what is ours in a contorted manner..how long will we resist seeing what is so clearly visible.

The Shame shoe may be on the other foot. Your outward bravado just a mask. There may be more truth there than the honesty within to acknowledge.

harbans ji,

Please do give links if you wish to remind the others of past posts, so people can look them up in their context.

Look at the case of the Italian soldiers, i am certain at some point of time we will buckle because it is the 'Chanakyan' thing to do as all of EU will be against us.

This is what I mean by "Inferiority Complex" due to "Power Differentials"!

Where is the "Chanakyan" here! We have a sold-out regime in Delhi and based on its behavior, why do you label it "Chanakyan"? Where is the "Chanakyan" in it? Why do you rubbish the name of one of the greatest Bharatiyas by associating it with this regime?

We have abandoned Dharma, and if we continue to do so, China and EU/ West will appropriate it, which they are directly through the ad and civilizing us. All around we are having signs that the barbarians are appropriating what is ours in a contorted manner..how long will we resist seeing what is so clearly visible.

Again this is Paranoia from "Inferiority Complex"! You think they can appropriate Dharma from India, so you acknowledge not just their stronger Power Equation, you also accept their higher Morality for being able to appreciate Dharma more than us.

If people had struck to this simple advice, and not some clever by half chanakya niti we would not have faced what we are facing today.

Okay after your inflationary use of "Chanakyan Niti" as and how you deemed fit and after in fact maligning the term itself, you tell me we shouldn't use "Chanakyan Niti"! Can you point out which strategy I pointed out even then which fits into your "Chanakyan Niti" definition. Can you point out where did I say, we should not abide by the evidence and law in this matter!

You have tried to appropriate some role for yourself as if you are the only Dharmic person around, the only person who can speak for Dharma, the only person who appreciates "truthfulness", and you have tried to paint everybody else as amoral, without values, who try out "Chanakyan Niti" which you have painted as immorality as well.

This again is your own "Individual Shame for the Collective", where you don't think the others in the Collective are capable of appreciating Dharma and values embodied in Dharma.

What we are facing today is the current regime conniving with the Italians and letting those Italians go beyond our sphere of jurisdictional control.

Tell me which "Chanakyan Niti" assured that we let the Italian Marines go?
Tell me which "Dharmic" moral values you have been singing about would have prevented that?
Also tell me, which simple advice of yours (i.e. of concrete action) did India not abide by?

But perhaps you can tell me in the other thread!

So if this sort of sentiment is prevalent and public over various fora, why would one blame Italians trying to get their naval personal out of clutches by hook, crook, moral low ground or high ground? They are justified in using every means available to get their personal out.

Who is blaming the Italians? Have you seen me here blaming the Italian Government? I am blaming solely Sonia Gandhi's regime!

But again your views show the acceptance of the moral superiority of the others!

harbans ji,

you have some issues with yourself!

The case reminds me a little of the Raymond Davis case in Pakistan. In the end, Pakistan had to let him go. India cannot do the same!

So a year later in retrospect have the shame and honesty at the minimum to acknowledge how wrong you were.

I feel vindicated in fact! It just proves that this Sonia Gandhi regimen in Delhi is no better than the two-bit in Pakistan!

The only shame I have is the one expressed by Modi in the BJP National Council Meeting - that "hamare hote hue yeh deemak Bharat pe raaj karen!"

[harbans]

Rajesh Ji, for a person that just a few days ago realized the potency of how uniting under the Dharmic banner and not under 'Hinduism' can be a rallying point this is what i wrote in Feb 2012.

The textbooks claim that Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism are not religions proper, but "dharmas". The term religion is restricted to Semitic religions like Christianity and Islam.

I have been saying this for some time here too now. That is correct. All our Indic and their rooted Asian 'religions' come under the Dharmic banner. When we lay out the basics of Dharma, enshrine them people tend to follow and conform. This is an evolutionary thing. If the value systems of people improve, the nation improves too. Dharma gives the rallying point. Also importantly is it gives personal freedom to explore Godhead by meditation, Bhakti, through Guru's, through practice of non-violence, through a middle path, through austerity, through Nyaya, Dvaita , Advaita or if you are interested in starting another meme, go ahead. Dharma provides the framework to religious and spiritual freedoms, some thing excluvist religions don't provide for. By giving Dharmic religions an excluvist hue wrt each other, colonialists have tended to divide us on religious lines..

This is where i was a year and more ago. This is where you came about just a few days ago on this very thread. Don;t you think it's a bit rich of you to talk about shame and Tamas. Y

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3280

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... w#p1253080

I have already answered all 3 of your questions. So it's useless to phrase them again and again. I did not rubbish Chanakya. I clearly said i rubbish those that think the judgement should be passed before the due process. That is your shame Rajesh. You said that not me. Anyways i think i have wasted quite some time on you. Possibly you are not worth that effort. Good day.