Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Aug 2012 06:21

AdityaM wrote:piss loving khans
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=81022

Before you blow a fuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landover_Baptist_Church

Sad day indeed.

I too have felt the aloofness among NA Sikhs. Makes me feel really sad.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Aug 2012 06:23

SBajwa wrote:
Dangerous idea. Keep in mind that you are suggesting this in a non-Dharmic land. Just with Kripans, Sikhs are being confused as terrorists. Make them carry large guns, you make this classification easy.
Deterrence!!

Why do Sikhs use to wear a real kirpan? Because Mughals forbade all non-muslims to carry it!!

Why do Sikhs Wear a turban? Because Mughals forbade it for any non-nobles (non-zamindar, non-nawab) to wear it.

Thus in modern times just a display of the weapon on a Sikh is a big deterrence just like in ancient times.

Yes Yes Yes

Wearing guns is the American way. Nothing wrong with it, do it legally.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 07 Aug 2012 06:23

I no longer identify myself as a Panjabi- what with Pakistanis, Khalistanis, one of the highest murder rates in the world, a swaggering illiterate braggadocio culture, extreme misogyny, rampant alcoholism- what is there to be proud of? Remember realism is the first step on the road to wisdom, at least I practice what I preach.

Seriously, is this what you have to say in a thread about six Sikhs killed in a Gurudwara by a right-wing American? - caution - JE Menon

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2012 06:32

nvishal wrote: Sikhism(a militarised religion).

Care to elaborate on this? What is militarized about the Sikh religion, or are you confusing a historic Sikh decision to fight after the ninth Guru Teg Bahadur was tortured and killed by Aurngzeb as "militarization of religion?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 07 Aug 2012 06:42

Emerging profile of the killer.

Wade Michael Page entered the Army in 1992 and served at Fort Bliss, Texas, as a Hawk missile-repair specialist before switching to be a “psychological operations specialist,” according to a defense official. He served at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, before being discharged in 1998, said the official, who asked for anonymity, saying he wasn’t authorized to speak for the Army.

The Southern Poverty Law Center described Page as a “frustrated neo-Nazi” who in 2005 led a “racist white supremacist” metal band called End Apathy. The Montgomery, Alabama-based organization, which monitors hate groups, said it has been tracking Page for a decade.
........
Page’s Army station was Fort Sill, Oklahoma, according to the official. The suspect then served at Fort Bliss before moving to Fort Bragg, the official said.

He was awarded two Army Good Conduct citations and a Humanitarian Service medal, according to U.S. Army records. Paul Prince, an army spokesman, declined to say whether Page was honorably discharged citing privacy laws. In 1998, Page was “administratively discharged,” he said. Police Chief Edwards told reporters Page was “ineligible for re-enlistment.”

In 2000, Page left home in Colorado and ventured on a motorcycle tour, during which he became involved with white supremacist hate groups, said Heidi Beirich, director of the intelligence project of the Southern Poverty Law Center. He played in two so-called hate bands with the names “End Apathy” and “Definite Hate,” she said.

End Apathy’s topics “vary from sociological issues, religion, and how the value of human life has been degraded by being submissive to tyranny and hypocrisy that we are subjugated to,” Page said during a 2010 interview with a blog called Label56.

Page pleaded guilty to criminal mischief in Houston in 1994, was sentenced to 180 days of probation and had a 90-day jail sentence suspended, according to court records. The records didn’t provide details.

Page lived on the second floor of a gray duplex on a quiet tree-lined street of mostly single-family homes in Cudahy, about 5.4 miles from the temple.

“He seemed normal,” said Peter Hoyt, 53, who lived a block away from Page and would talk with him as Page sat on the porch. “He was real laid back.” He described Page as short, stocky and bald.

A Littleton, Colorado, woman who identified herself as Page’s grandmother described him in a telephone interview as “very nice” and close to her, and declined to answer questions.

“We’re in mourning here,” she said.

In 2010, Page, then the leader of the band End Apathy, gave an interview to the white supremacist website Label 56. He said that when he started the band in 2005, its name reflected his wish to “figure out how to end people’s apathetic ways” and start “moving forward.” “I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back,” Page said. Later, he added, “The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole

Heidi Beirich, director of the center’s intelligence project, said her group had been tracking Page since 2000, when he tried to purchase goods from the National Alliance, a well-known hate group.

The National Alliance was led by William Pierce, who was the author of “The Turner Diaries.” The book depicts a violent revolution in the United States leading to an overthrow of the federal government and, ultimately, a race war. Parts of the book were found in Timothy McVeigh’s getaway car after the bombing of the federal building Oklahoma City in 1995.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Aug 2012 06:52

More reason for 'em reasonable khan resident communities to deny building permits etc to sikh gurudwaras and Hindu temples since they may be terror targets, so why want one in our area, eh?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 07 Aug 2012 07:22

This one goes in depth.
Oak Creek Sikh temple shooter had military background, white supremacist ties

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2012 07:33

The political views of Sikhs in America may be dictated by the fact that Sikhs were probably in North America long before any other Indians were allowed in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in ... ted_States

Sikhs have been a part of the American populace for more than 130 years. At the turn of the 19th century, the state of Punjab of British India was hit hard by British practices of mercantilism. Many Sikhs emigrated to the United States and began arriving to work on farms in California. They traveled via Hong Kong to Angel Island, California, the western counterpart to Ellis Island in New York Harbor.[8]

"Some Sikhs worked in lumber mills of Oregon or in railroad construction and for some Sikhs it was on a railway line, which allowed other Sikhs who were working as migrant laborers to come into the town on festival days."[9][unreliable source?]

A big effect on Sikh migration to the western states occurred during World War I and World War II, where Sikhs were recruited by the British Army to serve for them. Sikhs fought bravely during these wars and began to live in England after their serving period. Among the Sikhs who already lived in America prior to the wars, many Sikhs joined them, mainly during World Wars I and II. Among those who served in the US military include Bhagat Singh Thind in World War I.

First Sikh gurdwara in United States
"The first Sikh gurdwara was built in Stockton, California; the Gurdwara was created in 1912

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in ... mmigration

Sikhs have been in Canada since at least 1887.[citation needed] One of the first Sikh soldiers arrived in Canada following Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee. Sikhs were one of the few Asian immigrant communities who were loyal members of the British Empire. Sikhs found employment in laying the tracks of the Canadian Pacific Railway, in lumber mills and mines. Though they earned less than white workers, they made enough money to send to India and get relatives to immigrate to Canada. The first Sikh pioneers came to the Abbotsford area in 1905 and originally worked on farms and in the lumber industry.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 07 Aug 2012 07:47

Sikhs were probably in North America long before any other Indians were allowed in.

This is not strictly true - East Indians were brought to US shores starting as long back as 375 years ago - initially as slaves.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Aug 2012 07:49

There is no indication what the political views of the victims were, nor any indication that their alleged views had anything to do with this. Why do people keep harping on that in this thread?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2012 08:17

Anindya wrote:
Sikhs were probably in North America long before any other Indians were allowed in.
This is not strictly true - East Indians were brought to US shores starting as long back as 375 years ago - initially as slaves.

OK. In fact another ref says that even until the 1950s-60s the numbers were small. But I had often noticed that Sikhs in Britain in America in days gone by (80s-90s) would often tie turbans in an "out of fashion" manner - suggesting that they were out of touch with current practice in India. But this was true of the dress code of other Indian communities as well.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 08:18

being a psychological operations 'specialist' one should normally not give Wade the benefit of low IQ. It's highly possible that he may have known much more than probably any one of us. Which again brings us around to the 'motives' aspect.

Again what was the motive of that John Holmes shooter ?

As far as I am given to understand psy-ops specialists in military deal primarily with white-psy-ops. But when it comes to black or grey psy-ops, the military frowns on these and it's responsibility is handed over to culinary etc. Wade may just have moved over to the dark side.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2012 08:25

One link says that the designation "specialist" was a demotion from sergeant.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 08:30

Wade was good at what he did, he died fighting to allow the rest to slip away.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2012 08:41

The modus operandi of all colonial and later western powers has been to support opposition among minority ethnic groups from anywhere in the world who can serve as a nidus for division and control or at least deep influence.

It also tends to be forgotten that the Pakistan military learned this under the direct guidance of the CIA. The Khalistani militancy of the 80s was supported by Pakistan of course, but like the Mirpuris of Britain, local Sikh communities in North America served as facilitators. Clearly the Sikh community has been used like a condom and is now being thrown out.

I was in a car in Britain on the highway with a Sikh couple - good friends of mine when we heard the first news reports of the Air India bombing that killed everyone off the coast of Ireland. News reports in those days spoke of how the US had privately run military style training camps for civilians run by retired Vietnam vets and that Sikh militants had trained there in much the same way that white Muslim trash train in Pakistani training camps. And the Canadian Sikh connection to the Air India bombing soon came out.

There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions. And the community has been used for political gains for Pakis and their pals and allies, America.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 07 Aug 2012 08:51

Thank you SV temple of pittsburgh for prayers much obliged. You guys are our strength.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Aug 2012 08:57

>> let me assure you my dear friends for all matters most of the Sikhs friends I interacted with during my engineering days openly declare that Sikhism has NO whatsoever similarity to Hinduism.

And why does that cause takleef to you? What goes of your father?

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Aug 2012 09:09

Why do I get a feeling that this is turning out to be one of those getting chaddi in a twist dhaga. I for one simply don't understand this tendency in this board to expect expatriate Sikhs or any PIO for that matter to associate himself/herself with India; hello they left India and took up foreign citizenship they are no longer Indian, case closed. As a human being I have empathy for those who got injured or affected in this incident however I don't see why do we have to bring in India angle here when the affected people themselves don't wish to be associated with India.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 07 Aug 2012 09:17

KJoishy wrote:
BobbyP wrote:
To his credit, he did say both Punjab and India. He did not say South Asia. But CNN then put up a board which said Sikhism stared in "South Asia".

When the news of the shootout broke out, CNN's breaking news had something like
"Shooting at Gurudwara.......

Sikhism was formed from Hinduism rejecting its caste system and Hindu scriptures" -Not sure how many people caught it. It was completely unnecessary.

In North America I've seen billboards about 1984 and money being collected for 1984.. Not sure really where it ends up

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Aug 2012 09:27

negi wrote:they are no longer Indian, case closed

Gurdwara shooting: Flags fly half-staff as four victims confirmed Indian

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2012 09:29

Guys will need to issue warnings for any one bringing Khalistan after my post. Height of insensitivity to bring in Khalistan while we are trying to mourn and express sympathy for the victims.
Thanks, ramana

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 07 Aug 2012 09:34

habal wrote:Wade was good at what he did, he died fighting to allow the rest to slip away.

Gurdwara shooting: FBI rules out involvement of second person

member_23651 · Post by **member_23651** » 07 Aug 2012 09:36

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> no takleef.. onlee caused gyaan 12 yrs back... hope that satisfies you sharma saab

I am glad it caused no takleef. Now please explain how the issue of Hinduism-Sikhism similarity is relevant for understanding this event?

I think for that you need to read the whole thread again. My post was specific to reasons lack of synergy among NA Sikhs Orgs and Hindus. And their open display of support to terrorists in religious places/festivals. Hope that eases your discomfort and makes you breath a bit in ease

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 09:38

negi wrote:Why do I get a feeling that this is turning out to be one of those getting chaddi in a twist dhaga. I for one simply don't understand this tendency in this board to expect expatriate Sikhs or any PIO for that matter to associate himself/herself with India; hello they left India and took up foreign citizenship they are no longer Indian, case closed. As a human being I have empathy for those who got injured or affected in this incident however I don't see why do we have to bring in India angle here when the affected people themselves don't wish to be associated with India.

the granthi was an Indian citizen who had gone over to that gurudwara for a special ocassion. There were few other Indian nationals there as well.

meanwhile, more proof against the 'low IQ' excuse.

Page, a native of Colorado, joined the Army in 1992 and was discharged at the rank of specialist in 1998, Lt. Col. Laurel Devine of Army Public Affairs said. Page's area of specialty was psychological operations. He spent time at Fort Sill in Oklahoma, Fort Bliss in New Mexico and Fort Bragg in North Carolina. He had no deployments but received several awards, including five achievement medals, two good conduct medals and a parachutist badge, Devine said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... csp=34news

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 07 Aug 2012 09:39

What is the reason for kasab types from Pakistan to enter USA if Americans are more than capable of killing their own countrymen! "More Hollywood Miltainment!""More Guns"!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 09:47

Dipanker wrote:
habal wrote:Wade was good at what he did, he died fighting to allow the rest to slip away.

Gurdwara shooting: FBI rules out involvement of second person

So ?

I am sure the official records will have it as one shooter.

Even in this case it was the good policeman who didn't know that a black-ops operation was in place and shot one of them dead. It also forced such a situation in which the profession of the shooter had to be revealed as well along with his identity.

what was the motive behind John Holmes shooting episode in Aurora ? Most likely these are targeted assasinations/hitjobs, but a bunch of others are killed as well to give cover and make it seem like a hatecrime or a crime by some right-wing loon. This is what is given to understand with such crimes without motive.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 07 Aug 2012 10:01

Four victims confirmed Indian

U.S. President Barack Obama ordered flags to fly at half-staff at the White House and other federal buildings in honour of the victims of the shooting at a Gurdwara at Oak Creek near Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on Sunday.

Even as he called for “soul-searching” the Indian embassy in Washington confirmed that four out of the six Sikhs killed in the attack were Indian nationals, with one of them being a “recent visitor from India.” Witness accounts on Sunday had suggested that a Sikh priest visiting from New Delhi had been among those shot at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Aug 2012 10:11

Habal I am not talking about 'a' victim here; my post was more about the discussion in this thread on perceived opinions of Sikhs of indian origin about India . A lot of Sikhs migrated to foreign countries after 1984, they made their decision and have a right to have an opinion it's not like Republic of India did what was required to safeguard their interests; in fact the way I see things at that point in time Sikhs did the right thing else they would have been reduced to same status as Kashmiri Pandits (who knows) . When someone says he does not like being associated to India or Indians I don't see why should one get worked about it; it's an individual's choice .

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 10:15

It's just a technical argument and nobody is questioning your intentions. A few Sikhs in that Gurudwara were Indian citizens who had gone to US for a few days/weeks on a visa, they were Indians and had every intention of returning back to India.

A lot of Sikhs of Khalistani persuasion and relatives of Khalistani martyrs were given Canadian/US citizenship on request of Govt of India during the 80s. This has been vouched by Khushwant Singh in one of his books.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 07 Aug 2012 10:22

Thank God, finally some sanity is returning to this thread.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 10:26

I had read excerpts of that book in the Illustrated Weekly or some old mag in late 80s. Searched for it on the net but don't find it. But Khushwant Singh in his book mentioned long discussions of that the then Indian administration had with the Canadian high commissioner who had also requested some favors for accepting a large number of immigrants. I also don't know the visa status that such immigrants were under at that time.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 07 Aug 2012 10:41

Imagine if Canada or USA or UK throws out all Asians, where all these PIO's naturally turn to ?
Whether folks like it or not, Any PIO of Indic faith is responsibility of Bharta-varsha and yes we will bring the Indian angle in any such case.
Just because some people who have left India voluntarily or were forced makes no difference. They are one of us and we shall make every effort to protect them and their cultural moorings. If we are not for Indians (past,present or future), who else will be ?
So if someone does not want to be associated with Hinduism despite praying to Aum and Bhagwati Chandi and Bhagwan SriRam every morning, it is their choice.
They still are ours to protect.
Guru Govind Singh was not just a Sikh Guru. He was Bharatiya Guru carrying forward the legacy of thousands of years of Indic civilization.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Aug 2012 10:47

^ That is simply not going to happen; on the contrary what is going to happen in fact is already happening is migration of certain % of Indians every year to countries where avg. std. of living is higher, btw that is a fact and not my opinion.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 11:09

At the news conference, ATF special agent in charge Bernard Zapor said of the gun, “We know of its origin. We know where it came from,” and “how it ended up in the hands of this killer.”
But other than to say it was a 9 mm handgun and that a number of magazines were found at the scene, Zapor would not disclose anything else about the gun.

most likely it was a service weapon.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Aug 2012 11:12

habal wrote: what was the motive behind John Holmes shooting episode in Aurora ? Most likely these are targeted assasinations/hitjobs, but a bunch of others are killed as well to give cover and make it seem like a hatecrime or a crime by some right-wing loon. This is what is given to understand with such crimes without motive.

There is an effort by elites to disarm the population, and these incidents are certainly helpful in putting the requisite laws into place. Whether that was the motive or not one cannot say on the basis of available information. My quote from Solzhenitsyn a few pages back describes the context.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 07 Aug 2012 11:14

negi wrote:^ That is simply not going to happen; on the contrary what is going to happen in fact is already happening is migration of certain % of Indians every year to countries where avg. std. of living is higher, btw that is a fact and not my opinion.

Negi, not sure I understood your point. Could you explain it a bit more ?

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 11:42

Pranav wrote:
habal wrote: what was the motive behind John Holmes shooting episode in Aurora ? Most likely these are targeted assasinations/hitjobs, but a bunch of others are killed as well to give cover and make it seem like a hatecrime or a crime by some right-wing loon. This is what is given to understand with such crimes without motive.
There is an effort by elites to disarm the population, and these incidents are certainly helpful in putting the requisite laws into place. Whether that was the motive or not one cannot say on the basis of available information. My quote from Solzhenitsyn a few pages back describes the context.

yes, but assailant using a govt-owned gun (most likely given evasive explanation on origin of gun) is not useful for propagating gun control.

If it was a privately owned gun, bought from a gun-shop, they would have gone to town with it by now.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 07 Aug 2012 11:47

chaanakya wrote:If a Jehadi could be a terrorist then certainly a crusader would also be a terrorist. But this seems more an offshoot of either hate or gun culture. or combination of both.

Is it confirmed that religion was one of the cause for the attack?

Whether religion was in the foreground or not (we are talking about a gurdwara here, so its a little hard to imagine the act does not have to do with religion) - the issue is more one of consistency in terminology for terrorists across religions. We can't be unfair to our Islamic brethren now, can we? Some links:

Sikh Temple Shooting: “Christian Terror”
Christian Terrorism Comes to Milwaukee

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 07 Aug 2012 11:48

habal wrote:
Pranav wrote: There is an effort by elites to disarm the population, and these incidents are certainly helpful in putting the requisite laws into place. Whether that was the motive or not one cannot say on the basis of available information. My quote from Solzhenitsyn a few pages back describes the context.
yes, but assailant using a govt-owned gun (most likely given evasive explanation on origin of gun) is not useful for propagating gun control.

If it was a privately owned gun, bought from a gun-shop, they would have gone to town with it by now.

Don't know where gun came from, but I think having Wade killed was not part of the script. Need to trace the driver of the speeding car, which, as per eye witness reports, dropped him off at the Gurudwara.

habal · Post by **habal** » 07 Aug 2012 12:53

Do note that the original video of the bearded eyewitness/contacted by eyewitness mentioning four assailants dressed in black has now slowly slipped off youtube. It is not a trip of imagination to mistake 1 or 2 assailants for 4.

Can't find that video on youtube or on the first page of this thread where it was originally posted. Maybe it's replaced by another name or deleted by youtube. Hopefully someone saved it, if it isn't too late.