Bharat Rakshak

Prem wrote:Dont Dismiss Deer ajit_tr
RajeshA has already proposed joing with few choicest percentage of Agyani Pakistani Jnani in wholy purchased "matri-money".

Prem ji,

Should ajit_dear jump on the "matri-money" train, he could get rich! Instead of simply pasting articles on BRF and with deafanddumbers, he could be delivering liberation to to the Agyani Pakistani Jnanis and being paid for that!

sum wrote:

sobetter way to manage Pakistan is to join them.Thats what even earlier Indians did.

What is this supposed to mean in normal English ( not Pinglish)?

That some "earlier Indians" were abject surrender monkeys and are now called pakis.

The Christine Fair article on the Paki thread caused a lightbulb to switch on in my mind. The conclusions are not new to BRF but I will restate them.

Pakistan has allowed the proliferation of any and every group of Islamist on its territory and the fact that Islamists are fractured has led to infighting in Pakistan.

There are two ways of addressing this.

One is the international advice/US advice to Pakistan to rein in all Islamist groups and become "secular". For the Pakistan military, pretending to follow this goal gets money from the US

The second is to unite everyone under the banner of Islam (those who read the kalima) to fight those who don't read the kalima. The is the LeT goal and this goal suits the Pakistan army in terms of controlling the Paki people and territory.

All this is well known to us either by deduction or intuition, but the kabab mein haddi is the USA. The USA willingly allows itself to be taken for a ride by imagining that they can bribe the Pakistani army to let go of the LeT. There is an element of racism in the US's view of Pakistan in which there has been an assumption that the Pakistan military can be bought for a price. The Pakistan military will take money, but will not give in with regard to the LeT.

This has led to a stalemate where the Pakistani state does not fail because of US aid. The US is afraid of "failure" because they feel nukes will then be aimed against them. The uncertainty for India is the way events turn out depending on how the US squirms and which way the US turns.

RajeshA jii - thanks for replying my counter arguments. I agree with your thoughts to some extent but I think they are too far fetched. Before we conquer and re-covert pakis, we have IM hurdle to cross, which we haven't done so far. Some sections of IMs are still lured by Saudis and pakis evern their generations have been pure SDREs in appearance and character. So isn't it an overambitious step to aim for pakis/afgans even before IM's minds are not fully conquered.

In business context, any change management needs to happen gradually from current state to target state. The process has to be laid out carefully, and any abruptive change causes discomfort and resistance.

Your example of vina malik is good one. We need that sort of change more and moe - kind of reverse sania mirza. We know sania mirza did big mistake, and she wont live a day in pakis (who knows malik will request indian citizanship one day to play in IPL), but harm is done already. Pakis felt proud for whole 2 months during that period and forgot their daily bombings. They dont care whether malik leaves pakiland or not - they just proved themselvs to be TAFTA against 1 billion SDREs..so point scored !

Money is key. India has money. It has to produce more TAFTA and SDRE combinations with Indic names. We have taken pride in SDRE because we beleive character, and not appearance, is important. But pakis don't seem to be believe that.

What US is doing today on daily basis is exactly breaking their TAFTA slowly - by osama raid, by drone. But pakis have found a very clever way of not accepting weakness of any sort. In all such situations they say its becasue of some corrupt and "un-islamic" individuals, we lost this. So we lost 1971 not because our army was crap, but because our generals were corrupt, we can't prevent drones because our politicians are corrupt and so on. We need to break that rhetoric. You cannot stop drones because you simply cannot. India is too soft for pakis...

Solving Pakistan: Solution 8

Close the Paki Factory

NikhilB wrote:RajeshA jii - thanks for replying my counter arguments. I agree with your thoughts to some extent but I think they are too far fetched. Before we conquer and re-covert pakis, we have IM hurdle to cross, which we haven't done so far. Some sections of IMs are still lured by Saudis and pakis evern their generations have been pure SDREs in appearance and character. So isn't it an overambitious step to aim for pakis/afgans even before IM's minds are not fully conquered.

NikhilB ji,

one transformation model for non-Indics in the Subcontinent is, that Indics first work on the non-Indics which are closer to us, who live within India, and then we work our way outwards. There is a disadvantage with this model. Our strength is based on our national institutions. As soon as we are seen to go into an offensive mode (say on Proselytization, Marriage to IM women, Restraint on "Religious Freedoms", etc.) it creates a disturbance within our borders, and thus weakens our national institutions. On the other hand, it strengthens the foundations of our enemy to the West, who just wait for some sign that we are up to something like that, and they pounce on us. Their rhetoric goes up, and basically the national strength of Pakistan is based on rhetoric only. Then they are able to harness much more support from the world's Muslim community, which we have tried very hard to keep neutral in our tussle with Pakistan with mixed results, but it has been on the basis of our good treatment of the Indian Muslims. In the end, it makes it a Jihad by Islam against India, and we lose precious political space in Asia. The IMs consider themselves under siege and they pushed into the arms of the Pakis. On seeing our losses, we probably would not see the process through to the end.

The other model (inwards model) is to start with Pakistan, and then work inwards. Somewhere the IMs do receive their strength from the knowledge that there are other bastions of Islam besides them outside India but inside the Indian Subcontinent, with whom they share a sort of historical contiguity. This makes them feel, that they are not alone against the huge majority of Indics in India. The IMs also receive some ideological guidance from Pakistan. But in India, to some extent we have also been successful in containing the IMs in a black box - more or less satisfied with the political system in India, with the level of security they enjoy, etc. There have been some pronouncements in view of the Islamic implosion in Pakistan, that Indian Islam is a bit different, which too is positive, because it shields India from IM mischief when India takes on Pakistan.

The inwards model would keep Indian stability and solve Pakistan first (say through Matrimonial Acquisitions). Now Pakistan is the big bastion of Islam in the Subcontinent. It is somewhat like there is a gang. If you go and land a big jhapad on the gang leader, the gang members would see the light, that the gang leader is not a strong leader, and as such cannot lead. Then they will be willing to accept your leadership. So if the bastion of Pakistan falls to India, one would see IMs making concessions, and perhaps Bangladesh too on the question of say Conversion, or just Matrimonial Acquisitions. If the Muslim leader is willing to relent, who are the others to stay firm.

So I would keep the Indian Muslims happy and finish off Pakistan first!

NikhilB wrote:In business context, any change management needs to happen gradually from current state to target state. The process has to be laid out carefully, and any abruptive change causes discomfort and resistance.

That is why, I have tried to flesh out the many details and consider it a long drawn process over the next 25 years.

NikhilB wrote:Your example of vina malik is good one. We need that sort of change more and moe - kind of reverse sania mirza. We know sania mirza did big mistake, and she wont live a day in pakis (who knows malik will request indian citizanship one day to play in IPL), but harm is done already. Pakis felt proud for whole 2 months during that period and forgot their daily bombings. They dont care whether malik leaves pakiland or not - they just proved themselvs to be TAFTA against 1 billion SDREs..so point scored !

If acquisition of one SDRE woman caused them so joy, how much pain would it cause when they see a few prominent faces walking over into the arms of SDREs or even Indics. For them it is a life-and-death competition, and with every Pakeezah they hear of who has walked over, they will die a thousand deaths.

NikhilB wrote:Money is key. India has money. It has to produce more TAFTA and SDRE combinations with Indic names. We have taken pride in SDRE because we beleive character, and not appearance, is important. But pakis don't seem to be believe that.

Yes Money is the Key. Being bought is sometimes worse than being conquered!

RajeshA wrote:There is a disadvantage with this model. Our strength is based on our national institutions. As soon as we are seen to go into an offensive mode (say on Proselytization, Marriage to IM women, Restraint on "Religious Freedoms", etc.) it creates a disturbance within our borders, and thus weakens our national institutions. ...

The other model (inwards model) is to start with Pakistan, and then work inwards. Somewhere the IMs do receive their strength from the knowledge that there are other bastions of Islam besides them outside India but inside the Indian Subcontinent, with whom they share a sort of historical contiguity. This makes them feel, that they are not alone against the huge majority of Indics in India. The IMs also receive some ideological guidance from Pakistan. But in India, to some extent we have also been successful in containing the IMs in a black box - more or less satisfied with the political system in India, with the level of security they enjoy, etc. There have been some pronouncements in view of the Islamic implosion in Pakistan, that Indian Islam is a bit different, which too is positive, because it shields India from IM mischief when India takes on Pakistan.

RajeshA ji, very good point. Nature has ordained that a combination of attitudes, justly working together in their proper place and time, is required for victory.

raudro 'dbhutash cha shringAro
hAsyam veero dayA tathA
bhayAnakarash cha beebhatsaH
shAntaH sa-prema-bhaktikaH

Fury (perceived by the enemy in our backlash to provocation)
Wonder (instilled by our progressive attitudes at home and with the world)
Conjugal Attraction (havingness for women - across cultural boundaries)
Friendly Humour (our ability to be cool with everyone via soft power projection)
Chivalry (of our state institutions)
Mercy (towards the Other when they admit faults and show signs of changing to Indic values)
Terror (as a systematic policy against the stubborn defiance and arrogance of the enemy)
Loathing (for the unintelligence of the enemy's traits and ideology)
Peaceful Neutrality (our ability to be aloof, not giving more attention than required, focussed on our civilizational purpose w.r.t. the world at large)
Loving Devotion (towards the true God, and our Way of life)

IM's must find themselves beneficiaries of Indic chivalry and mercy. Rogue IM's should be corrected and punished by state institutions with the law taking its due course. OTOH, backlash should be directed at flogging TSP due to its mischief. E.g., declared groups of "non-state actors" from India can take the initiative to do an Akshardham or a Godhra in TSP in order to settle the score. I do believe that we need a policy arm of overt, systematic, reciprocal terror directed primarily and exclusively against terror central itself, and to be seen as such over there. That ought to be part of truly holistic people-to-people contacts between India and TSP, esp. given the nature of the adversary. Instead, TSP-instigated communal friction in India is often met with further backlashes within India itself and obsessive discomfort of the majority like NikhilB ji's concerns. That is self-defeating. But when IM's see Indic rage directed at the heart of TSP, then their sense of security, respect and integration will go up automatically.

IMHO, an outward-looking stance is very important, rather than being overly concerned whether everything about oneself is first alright or not. This is true for shaastra as well as shastra. There is a natural balance and feedback between the two - inward and outward attention, esp. in this case when our destinies are closely intertwined.

Carl wrote:raudro 'dbhutash cha shringAro
hAsyam veero dayA tathA
bhayAnakarash cha beebhatsaH
shAntaH sa-prema-bhaktikaH

Carl ji,

thank you for these words of wisdom!

Published on May 28, 2011
By Andrew Gavin Marshall
Imperial Eye on Pakistan: Pakistan in Pieces, Part 1: Global Research

Published on Jun 30, 2011
By Andrew Gavin Marshall
Punishing Pakistan and Challenging China: Pakistan in Pieces, Part 2: Global Research

Published on Jul 03, 2011
By Harold A. Gould
A disintegrating Pakistan: Choices for US and India: Deccan Herald

In my opinion, the best option is what I would call strategic consolidation. That is, India, the US and its allies, must "step aside", let the holocaust happen, and try to contain in every way possible its spread beyond Pakistan's borders and the Pashtun region now dominated by the Taliban.

As the dimensions and ramifications of the "implosion" become apparent, the US, NATO and India can deploy their military and diplomatic resources in whatever manner they deem necessary and possible to contain, ameliorate and mediate the undoubtedly pervasive violence that will ensue and must run its course.

With regard to Afghan policy in the face of a Pakistani political meltdown, and an inevitable consequent upsurgence of Taliban militancy in the Pashtun region, former US ambassador to India (2001-3) Robert D. Blackwill has offered a highly imaginative interim solution.

The US, he says, should for the time being consolidate its forces and resources in the non-Pashtun portions of the country where Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazarras predominate and originally formed the core of the Northern Alliance which in concert with the US after 9/11 defeated the Taliban.

His observations concerning the interim realignment of forces in Afghanistan in the face of the worst-case scenario are highly pertinent.

"Washington should accept," he declares, "that the Taliban will inevitably control most of the Pashtun south and east and that the price of forestalling that outcome is far too high for the United States to continue paying."

Even prior to the impending collapse of Pakistan, or indeed if in the end it avoids this terminal fate, Blackwill rightly concludes that "the emergence of a clear division in Pakistan might provide just the sort of shock the Pakistani military apparently needs in order to appreciate the dangers of the game it has been playing for decades."

Leading American commentators, including this one, are now convinced that Pakistan is only a furtive step away from ceasing to be a viable modern state capable of carrying out its responsibilities as a purported "non-NATO ally" of the US in the war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda and other jihadi extremists.

Yes, this implies a comprehensive realignment of forces, resources and strategic orientation towards the Af-Pak theatre. But in the face of a steadily disintegrating, politically pathological Pakistan state, it is only a matter of time until such a realignment takes place anyway. For US-Pakistan relations, as we have known them, it is indeed the end of the affair.

Harold Gould is Visiting Scholar in the Center for South Asian Studies, University of Virginia

Published on Jul 01, 2011
By S. Akbar Zaidi
Is Pakistan collapsing?: Viewpoint

From drone attacks to constant admonishing by the Obama administration, to a weak economy, an insurgency and target-killing of the non-Baloch in Balochistan, and a weekly dose of suicide attacks on common people, all support a perception that Pakistan is collapsing. However, this conventional understanding may not be accurate. What these events suggest is that there is a growing crisis and contradiction within and between the institutions of the state in Pakistan and these crises and contradictions, evaluated differently, might offer a completely divergent narrative. What may be collapsing is the political settlement that has existed for many decades and this may be a positive development. Democractic forces have an opportunity now to end the military’s domination of Pakistan.

Based on a long list of events and responses around them, one can unambiguously answer this ques­tion as a definite “yes”.

RajeshA garu,

Here's an article about how some Haryanvi jat bachelors are managing to find wives... from another part of India. Well, Pakjab is much closer than Kerala, I'd say...

Hari Seldon wrote:RajeshA garu,

Here's an article about how some Haryanvi jat bachelors are managing to find wives... from another part of India. Well, Pakjab is much closer than Kerala, I'd say...

This may be OT here but in the context of your post. This is common in India at various times periods in India. From AP itself, there were instances of lack of girls for brahmin-viadeeki community in 1940s-50s and the folks in Guntur/Prakasam districts went to Palghat-Kerala to marry girls from Iyer community. Rajus/Gajapathis (Ramalinga Raju/Ashok Gajapathiraju) West Godavari to districts in Orissa - used to marry girls from Rajputs of Rajasthan (though this is maintaining the pan-Indian Rajah communities). Rajus thing is reciprocal as girls were given as alliances too.

I do not think the seclusive/ghetto mindset was there in India prior to mullah invasion. Also, female foeticide and other stats are being shown as reasons for skewed sex ratio. What tech is there is 1940s and 1950s when there was shortage of girls, instead of dowry, kanya sulkam was prevelant. Interestingly Kerala always (education/no education) seems to have good sex ratios. The reasons for ratios/fall in ratios all seems to be BS. This is all OT for this thread anyway.

My family was connected to the Gajapathis of Vizainagaram over five generations.

RajeshA wrote:Published on Jul 03, 2011
By Harold A. Gould
A disintegrating Pakistan: Choices for US and India: Deccan Herald

In my opinion, the best option is what I would call strategic consolidation. That is, India, the US and its allies, must "step aside", let the holocaust happen, and try to contain in every way possible its spread beyond Pakistan's borders and the Pashtun region now dominated by the Taliban.


Leading American commentators, including this one, are now convinced that Pakistan is only a furtive step away from ceasing to be a viable modern state capable of carrying out its responsibilities as a purported "non-NATO ally" of the US in the war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda and other jihadi extremists.

This is another way of saying that they are going to stop the tap which funds Pak military machine and the state which for the last 30 years allowed it to keep threaten India and deploy a jihad policy.

But why should they ask for India help or talk to Indians.

Solving Pakistan: Solution 8

Close the Paki Factory

Hari Seldon wrote:RajeshA garu,

Here's an article about how some Haryanvi jat bachelors are managing to find wives... from another part of India. Well, Pakjab is much closer than Kerala, I'd say...

Hari Seldon ji,

thanks for the link.

It shows that men in India are generally open-minded about marrying girls from outside their communities.

As I mentioned previously, there will be around 54 million Indian men who would find no wife in the next 25 years. They all need wives.

India has a demographic weakness. Pakeezah Acquisition is a means of converting that demographic weakness into a demographic strength in order to finish off an enemy, Pakistan.

Acharya wrote:But why should they ask for India help or talk to Indians.

The Frankenstein Monster is now bigger than what Dr. Frankenstein can handle alone.

Solving Pakistan: Solution 10

Make Pakistan Useless to USA

In Solution 4, I explored how we could cut off Saudi aid to Pakistan, here, I'll try to explore how to take away American support for Pakistan.

New Routes for USA into Afghanistan

In the thread, "The US and China in Pakistan - their respective roles", I explored in a series of posts, "New Routes for USA into Afghanistan", how new routes can be offered to USA for supplying their military deployment in Afghanistan, thus taking away much of the importance that USA gives Pakistan, at least officially. I will be linking those posts from here.

1. Imperatives and Possibilities
2. Incentives to Iran
3. Airbridge & Reclaiming Gilgit-Baltistan
4. Oil Refinery in Northern Afghanistan & Lassoing Iran
5. India & the Geopolitical Tango in Afghanistan
6. Oil Refinery & Security
7. Political Imperatives for Iran to Support Indian Transit

Solving Pakistan: Solution 10

Make Pakistan Useless to USA

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

New Routes for USA into Afghanistan

ranjbe wrote:Unkil implementing Plan B, where they will not be dependent on Paki supply routes in the future, via strengthening the Northern supply line. Todays Washington Post:

As recently as 2009, the U.S. military moved 90 percent of its surface cargo through Pakistan, arriving by ship at the port in Karachi and then snaking through mountain passes, deserts and remote tribal areas before crossing the border into Afghanistan. The Pakistan supply lines are served entirely by contractors instead of U.S. military convoys and are vulnerable to bandits, insurgents and natural disasters.

Today, almost 40 percent of surface cargo arrives in Afghanistan from the north, along a patchwork of Central Asian rail and road routes that the Pentagon calls the Northern Distribution Network. Military planners said they are pushing to raise the northern network’s share to as much as 75 percent by the end of this year.

“If you look at what we’ve done there in the last two years, we look at it more or less as a logistics miracle,” said Alan F. Estevez, the Pentagon’s principal deputy assistant secretary for logistics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

The Pentagon should get Indian Railways to build railroads through Central Asia, thereby increasing the throughput. It would be best if the railroads built are built to Indian Gauge - 1.676 meters.

If Pentagon is willing to spend some money, India may be willing to deliver a far better logistics network in Central Asia, than happens to be the case right now.

It is also important that the rail network in Central Asia is built to the Indian Gauge.

Solving Pakistan: Solution 10

Make Pakistan Useless to USA

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

New Routes for USA into Afghanistan

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote:The Pentagon should get Indian Railways to build railroads through Central Asia, thereby increasing the throughput. It would be best if the railroads built are built to Indian Gauge - 1.676 meters.

If Pentagon is willing to spend some money, India may be willing to deliver a far better logistics network in Central Asia, than happens to be the case right now.

It is also important that the rail network in Central Asia is built to the Indian Gauge.

If I may, given that India shares no borders with any Central Asian country, or indeed with Af, how is that going to be possible?

There is a lot that can be transported over Iran.

somnath wrote:And well, why should a rail network criss-crossing CA be on Indian gauge, and not the Soviet gauge (whatever that is) that should be the "standard"?

Indian railways gauge is 1.676m. Russian railways gauge is 1.520 m. In fact, in parts, Iran too uses the Indian gauge.

1) So basically if Indian Railways get involved with Iranian Railways, we can offer to expand their Indian (Broad) Gauge network, and link it to the proposed Central Asian Railways Network also on Indian (Broad) Gauge. Since we would be transporting all the material through Iran, it will be facilitatory if Iran too knew that the Central Asian Network would be primarily be useful to Iran.

Wouldn't Iran want that the connectivity of Central Asia is better with Iran than with Russia?

2) Secondly it is in India's interest that in Central Asia they use the Indian (Broad) Gauge, as whenever in the future India gets to be connected to Central Asia, we would be well-placed to utilize it. Secondly India can export railway engines and coaches, etc. to Central Asian countries, thus opening an export market for us.

3) Even though it would be a little more difficult for the USA to transport the stuff if it is being transported through the Northern Distribution Network rails, BUT USA too would not want to finance a railways network which integrates with that of Russia in a seamless manner. So Pentagon too would buy the idea, that a different gauge would be strategically useful.

4) Moreover the politically favored route would be through (Black Sea, Georgia, Azerbaijan, [Turkmenistan | (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan)], Afghanistan), and not necessarily through Russia. So it is not necessary that the Russian Railways Gauge should be identical with that in Central Asia.

5) Considering how the alliances are coming together, USA would not mind giving India this contract.

6) It is in India's interest that Afghanistan be better connected with its neighbors other than Pakistan, so that Pakistan's influence decreases. Moreover India too does not want that the region comes under Chinese influence, and that region becomes a market for Chinese railways building companies. China mostly uses the standard gauge.

7) Last but not least, Pentagon would want to transport heavy stuff over the railways, maybe even tanks, etc. With Indian (Broad) Gauge carrying capacity can be designed to be higher.

Solving Pakistan: Solution 10

Make Pakistan Useless to USA

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

New Routes for USA into Afghanistan

GuruPrabhu wrote:^^^ With increasing use of containers for goods transportation, the gauge mismatches are not that big a deal. At gauge conversion points, a goods train with 100 wagons of containers can be transferred in a couple of hours with proper design of crane systems.

Chinese will just build such transfer points - it will only be a minor hiccup and not a show stopper.

A hiccup from the Chinese is better than a binging spree from them.

pgbhat wrote: Dual gauge

Dual Gauge is easier if one has a broader gauge first. But if one has the narrower gauge first, as is the case with "standard gauge" which the Chinese have, then expanding it with broad gauge is more difficult.

So either the Chinese would have to rework the whole rail network we set up in Central Asia, or would have to put broad gauge on its own rail network, which can be a huge exercise in itself. And should the Chinese do it, then Indian Railways can also sell rail engines and coaches to China as well, broadening our market.

Muslim Pride

An old quote from A_Gupta ji, something on the lines of what I have said earlier. Repeating here, just to show that these ideas have been in circulation for quite some time.

A_Gupta wrote:One thing with psychological impact will be if India starts doing well in things like Olympic track & field and FIFA soccer and so on. The Pakistani image of perhaps brainy but not brawny Indian will start taking a beating.

Univ. of Chicago paper:
National Pride in Specific Domains

The domain-specific national pride battery asks people how proud they are of their country in ten domains: 1) the way democracy works, 2) its political influence in the world, 3) country’s economic system, 4) its social security system, 5) its scientific and technological achievements, 6) its achievements in sports, 7) its achievement in the arts and literature, 8 ) COUNTRY’s armed forces, 9) its history, and 10) its fair and equal treatment of all groups in society.

[...]

General Level of Pride in Specific Domains
Looking across all 34 countries and giving equal weight to each country, people have the most pride in their country’s history (34% very proud)(Table 2). This is closely followed by pride in sports 32%). Next comes national pride in arts/literature (25%) and in science/technology (23%). They are followed by pride in a country’s armed forces (17.5%). Clustered closely together at a lower level is national pride in democracy (12%), economics (12%), the fair and equal treatment of groups (11%), and ones social security system 11%). Bring up the bottom is national pride in ones country’s political influence in the world (8%).

In general, more subjective and cultural dimensions are rated more highly and domains that are more objective and political are rated less highly.

Domain-specific rankings differ by country, but sports is apparently always high on the pride priority list for developing nations.

Poaks have false pride like "mai na maannoo". They have always/ regularily lost in kabbadi and wrestling matches with Indians.Onlee method is to crush them in front of aam world like in 71.Using AS' recomendation, they must be laughed at and ridiculed on every possible occasion.

The Sports Retailing Industry in India - Market Research 2010

According to government’s own estimates out of the 770 million below the age of 35, only about 50 million have access to organised games and sports facilities. This is lower than in countries such as China where 37 per cent of its population, or 480 million citizens, actively participate in education and sports activities.

But...

It is predicted that recreation consumption in India, which includes expenditure on sports, will grow at the rate of 8.9 per cent per annum from $1 billion in 2005 to $6 billion in 2025.

Muslim Pride

Should India really put on some Sporting muscles, and start doing well in sports, say at the Olympics, and if I may dream, at FIFA as well, and at international boxing (WBO, WBC, WBA, IBF), and we start beating Pakistan really bad in bilateral competitions, then we should go out and start taunting them.

If we win --> Pakis are devastated! we say: Pakis are Weaklings
If we lose --> Pakis are overjoyed! we say: Pakis, the Weaklings, are so glad they won at least something. Otherwise they have been losing at a, b, c, d, e, f.

We should never lose an opportunity to shove their face into the dirt! Paki DNA is to associate themselves only with those, who treat them like dirt. We should abuse them so much, that they should be ashamed day and night. Pakistaniyat should start stinking as if it was sh*t smeared over the bodies of Pakistanis, until one day, they themselves say, "I don't want to be a Pakistani. Tell me what to do, to get as far from it as I can"!

That is when the cleansing starts!

Land for Terror

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

Nihat wrote:1.) Diplomatic / Political warfare - similar to post 26/11

2.) Economic warfare

3.) Water wars

4.) Military confrontation

5.) Our own proxy War

6.) No action at all

Nihat ji,

In the thread "Managing Pakistan's Failure", these are the exact questions we have been pondering upon.

Of course, taking down those who sponsor terrorist attacks on India, through some covert action seems the most appropriate course of action.

There were three other options, I personally found had some merit.

1. Land for Terror
2. Supari Plantation in Afghanistan
3. Compensation for Terror Victims

Nihat wrote:If we fight back , we are just giving them what they want and in the process potentially sacrificing our men in uniform, if we don't fight back and deny them the opportunity to fight then we come off looking like bunnies who are too afraid to defend our motherland

The key is to build a Pushtun Force in Afghanistan, which cooperates closely with India, is firmly in favor of an independent Pushtunistan, and have the connections to influence the Pushtun Taliban in FATA and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.

Whenever Pakistan attacks India, we start our coordination with the Afghans, who create a secessionist mood in Pushtun lands of Pakistan, and if we attack Pakistan then, Pakistan would be under pressure from both sides. It would also not lead to a consolidation of anti-Kufr platform in Pakistan.

In all this, we keep our war with Pakistan short and do not allow it to escalate. We grab a chunk of Pakistani land in Pakjab as compensation for the terror attack, and demand that Pakistan delivers our list of 20 Terrorists, we want from them, within a month, if they wish a return of the land. They will not relent. So we keep the land.

Every time they attack India, they lose a chunk of their land in Pakjab proper. Pakistani Army's reputation would be finished.

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

harbans wrote:I may be way off track here, but something struck me as being entirely possible. Pakistan is producing Nuclear materials and weapons like no one's business. Reports are saying 200 in a few years. All the while it's evident the State is weakening with a very significant possibility of a fundamentalist (unwashed Jihadi) takeover. PA and ISI today are finding the present setup as very difficult to nuke India, they've tried to provoke India and India has not reacted.

There is a possibility the PA is at some point has reconciled to a complete Mad mullah takeover of the country lock, stock and barrel. The elite RAPE and Army top brass will make it to US/ UK/ EU etc when the country descends in chaos and civil war, Somalia type of situations. From there they will watch mad mullah and India possibly nuke each other and pretend to be the sane faction amongst the extreme Muslims and 'extreme' Hindu's. I say this, as i have always wondered why a country going down the sewer is so damn keen on increasing it's nuke piles to these levels.

Deterrence towards India has clearly worked on 2 occasions for them: Kargil and Parakrama. Therefore it makes little sense to increase nukes to the levels they are going for presently. So does creating a massive fundamentalist structure and nuclear destructive capability and finally deserting it to a leadership that won't hesitate to use it at some point make sense? I think in many ways it's the only thing that makes sense to the Elite RAPE for a few reasons:

1. In case of a complete Jihadi, unwashed Mullah takeover, the Elite manage to escape to the safe confines of the West.

2. They leave a complete and massive Missile and Nuclear weapons set up to target India.

3. From the West they plant articles of == with Hindu right==Taliban, unwashed Jihadi types..we were the only sober party is South Asia type arguments.

4. They manage to escape any eventuality from a Nuke war they have engendered.

A little out of the box folks, but just because it's exactly that, i posted it.

harbans wrote:IN the above it's important to see why the frothing Jihadi in the PA has been unwilling to use Nukes so far. Why he has been curtailed. What motivated him to back off. It's the personal losses. Like Reidel and Shiv Ji much earlier mentioned it's essential to target the individual Officers and there families, now that's something they back off from if one notices. Responsibility.

This scares them the uniformed Jihadi, the individual targeting part. It doesn't scare the unwashed Jihadi though. So how the F do they start hostilities in India, specially when they are collapsing on all fronts, a basket case of an economy, US breathing down their necks and inner regions without escaping responsibility.

The only way i feel is letting Pakistan descend to controlled civil war conditions and allowing at an appropriate point a take over by the unwashed. Escape for the RAPE is very urgent at this juncture. They are probably making arrangements or already have for that part.

harbans ji,
I had written some time ago in the Aftermath of Nuclear Attack: India's Civilizational Renewal Thread,

RajeshA wrote:Thirdly every Pakjabi man, woman and child regardless of where ever they may be living on the face of the earth or beyond, will be butchered till there is no trace of that qaum any more on this earth. They will be safe neither in Queenstan, nor in Amreeka, nor in Canada, nor in Norway, simply nowhere. India would be putting up killer commandos in all these lands, and their work would be of hunting down the Pakis, and cremating them alive. No Paki caught would ever end up in a grave or have his last rites read. They will simply be fed to the pigs!

This is the message we should keep on repeating. There is no escape for Pakis, where ever in the world they may try to hide. That is an oath every Indian should take! The first step in the Renewal of Indian Civilization in the Aftermath of a Nuclear Exchange with Pakistan starts with cleansing the Planet of each and every person who has ever called themselves a Pakistani.

Why call it 'Pakistan'?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/07/why-c ... istan.html

Ground Rules of Reaction to Bomb Blasts in any Indian City

1. Start calling it an act by Pakistan. From the word go. There can be no other explanation.
2. Any investigations that are to take place, who really was responsible, do that in secret. No leakage to the media. If in the end it works out that Pakistan was responsible, make everything public. If not, kill the culprits in fake encounters, and bury the story.
3. Within 24 hours of an attack, retaliate against Pakistan, formally calling them responsible.
4. Whenever somebody asks for evidence, we show we are damn mad, and the other is simply a Pakistan and Terrorist Apologist. We should not even think about first collecting evidence, than making up a case, then presenting it to the international community, then fighting with them to accept our evidence, blah, blah. We should never go down that road. We say, we have all the evidence we need. And we don't need anybody's permission to defend our country.
5. Land for Terror!

^^

6. Also, there may emerge grassroots networks for reciprocal terror formed by enraged Indian citizens who have borne the brunt of TSP terrorism, or whose brethren inside TSP are under constant threat. These groups may carry out revenge strikes inside TSP. The GoI must immediately condemn these Indian Non-State Actors and open an official dossier investigating the hoodlums. The said groups will probably aim at:
(a) RAPE people and infrastructure
(b) Terror tanzeems
(c) Paki national and cultural landmarks and symbols

Sociologically speaking, this is a natural phenomenon bound to occur, completing the circle of people-to-people contacts initiated by WKK's, in order to meet Pakis in the full gamut of different moods that they come to us in.

Carl ji,

This thread's initial title was "Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options"! As such in the first few pages of this thread the focus was more terrorism related.

During the course of this thread, I suggested an option, that I called "Supari Plantation". It is further elaborated here. It has some similarities to what you suggest.

Carl wrote:^^

6. Also, there may emerge grassroots networks for reciprocal terror formed by enraged Indian citizens who have borne the brunt of TSP terrorism, or whose brethren inside TSP are under constant threat. These groups may carry out revenge strikes inside TSP. The GoI must immediately condemn these Indian Non-State Actors and open an official dossier investigating the hoodlums. The said groups will probably aim at:
(a) RAPE people and infrastructure
(b) Terror tanzeems
(c) Paki national and cultural landmarks and symbols
Sociologically speaking, this is a natural phenomenon bound to occur, completing the circle of people-to-people contacts initiated by WKK's, in order to meet Pakis in the full gamut of different moods that they come to us in.

If they are inaccessable within Poakland, get them overseas. No one stopping Maino to use Mafiaso and pay from Swiss account. They can make it look like accidents.

Unwillingness by Government of India to hit out at Pakistan

X-Posting from Serial Blasts in Mumbai Thread

Sravan wrote:Ever heard of viral marketing? leveraging social media to bring change. Do you know how efficiently you can control mass opinion with social media?

leverage the crowd sourced media and you can immediately create a medium to call out others on bullshit. How do you think wikileaks works.

Short term goals are simple. Attack a few terror camps which we have solid evidence about. I'm telling you regarding both short term and long term goals. However to achieve the short term goals as a citizen of a democracy you need to establish a system even if it's patchy to bring about change. Create a citizen driven institution with or without the approval of any governance to bring about information. Knowledge is power, leverage it and you will be successful in bringing about change.

Sravan wrote:Why should we depend on people who have failed to deliver? Either change the system or make the system a non-party to the problem by approaching it yourself. Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.

Many people often have the opinion that to "manage Pakistan", war is the solution. Some of them know, only starting of the war is in our hands, ending is not. To clarify, according to parliament report, Militarily, India has stocked itself to wage a "perceived war" for 45 days. Its Crude oil stock lasts for 74 days. Though initial days of war will be of high intensity, there will be many medium intensity and low intensity wars ranging for months to years depending on the "developments". We could expect Pak be supported with all moral, military, monetary help from suspected entities. It may go on like Iraq-Iran war with many medium intensity wars. Since our country is run by accountants, don't entertain any day dream of such ventures from current ruling elites.

Unwillingness by Government of India to hit out at Pakistan: Citizens against Government Apathy to Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism

1) There is only one way of changing this, and that is mass mobilization in India. One needs to have a standing group of dedicated citizens, called say "Citizens against Government Apathy to Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism".

2) Every time some terrorist incident happens in India, this group should get into top gear, and start writing articles in newspapers, on blogs. They should get active in the social media - facebook, twitter, etc. Every forum, where they can express their disgust at the government for its apathy and inaction should be used.

3) They should collect, as many contact details of concerned citizens as they can in various Indian cities, who visit these forums, or leave comments on their blogs, or follow them as social media friends.

4) The Group should try to organize as many demonstrations across India in the various cities as they can. This is where all the contacts gathered through Internet come in handy.

5) The tone of the demonstrations should be both very anti-Pakistan as well as GoI-critical.

6) The mood of the demonstrations should be such that it maximizes the number of Indians that partake in such demonstrations. As such the demonstrations should not indulge in violence of any kind as a means to show their disaffection.

7) The emphasis should be to get the participants to encourage their friends, family and colleagues to also participate in subsequent demonstrations. It should take on the dynamics of viral marketing, of exponential popularity.

8 ) Also the organizers should sell T-Shirts with some message - say I demonstrated against "Govt. Apathy to 20xx bombings yy City!" or something of that sort, or even some other message like "Pak, you will pay". Through the sale of such T-Shirts the organizers can get bigger, more professional looking posters and placards for use, which they can distribute among the participants.

9) Every time, the demonstrations would become bigger and take place in every city and more people would be receptive to the message.

10) Someday the Government too would have to give in to such public mood.

Citizens against Government Apathy to Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism

Citizens against Government Apathy to Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism (CaGAPsT) should try to become a movement, which besides in the mission to educate the citizen about government's apathy and organizing demonstrations in various cities, should include the following tasks as well in its work.

• The "Organizing Committee" of the Movement records all the efforts of various parties, various candidates, various government functionaries, of all pronouncements and all work somebody or some group has undertaken to absolve Pakistan of terrorism, to continue to appease Pakistan, or in fact to condemn Pakistan, to bring out motions against it in legislative assemblies or in Parliament, or to pressurize the Government to take action against Pakistan.
• Position itself in a role, where the political candidates for elections crave to get an endorsement from the movement.
• Gives endorsement to only that candidate which displays the strongest nationalist credentials and does his utmost to both strengthen India's defense and to adopt a hawkish attitude towards Pakistan. If some candidate fails to live up to his promise, he is not endorsed any further. There can also be condemnations of the stand of various politicians.
• Acts like a vote-bank. The votes of all its branch members go to the candidate they endorse. That is one of the planks - to convince regular members that they vote as per endorsement.
• Funding is generated aggressively, through purchase of merchandise like T-Shirts, through donations, through advertising on the website, etc.
• Funds are important, because that allows the members of the "organizing committee" to undertake travels to various other cities to assist with organizing as well as for advertising any events like presentations, conferences, demonstrations, think-tank activity, etc. It would also help to cover the costs of having a dedicated staff to deal with these issues. Moreover office space and office material all costs money. Money is extremely important.
• The effort should be to have a branch in each and every city of India.
• The Movement should also get involved in colleges, trying to educate students about the grave danger to India and Indians.

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

Lalmohan wrote:the backdrop to this is unkil's presence in afghanistan, unkil's demands on the TSPA and the TSPA's counter by raising the "indian bogey" which finally the americans are getting wise to. so what better than to provoke the indian bogey - not enough so that it becomes serious, but just enough to keep the disequilibrium boiling. paquis are great at doing just enough

terror outfits in this case are fairly incidental to the whole thing.

i've trawled through a few international papers - most are happy to point fingers at pakistan, but interestingly, where there are "south asian" journalists - then they tend to do a purohit style ==

TSPA wants more than anything for India to lash out, that would immediately cancel all GWOT operations and unite the various beards into a greater jihad

its a real catch-22 situation, and unfortunately the only way out may be a total annihilation of pakistan as we know it

shiv wrote:

Lalmohan wrote: TSPA wants more than anything for India to lash out, that would immediately cancel all GWOT operations and unite the various beards into a greater jihad

I would like US aid to stop, and Pakhanastan to go further down the drain. Ideally relations with the US deteriorate so much that the "friends" Pakistan has in the CIA do stop feeding them with critical intel. That is the time to lash out and hit them.

Lalmohan ji,

When we say it is a catch-22 situation, it means both options are bad - if we do nothing, they feel emboldened, if we do something, we play right into their plans.

We make an assumption here, that their plans are solid, and that their plans would go smoothly and deliver to them in the long term just what they wanted. Out of a distaste for playing into their hands, we end up doing not what is right.

You may have seen a very typical situation in a movie or book narrative. The bad guys have kidnapped the girl. The good guy wants to go after her. The good guy's friend says it is a trap. Don't go. The good guy says, he knows that it is a trap, but he has to go!

Out of this situation, the only solution is for the good guy to go in but with an additional plan, that everything what the bad boys had thought up it is not realized, but the good guy still manages to save the day.

1) The first question is; What to do? - The solution is for us to go in. We do not have a choice.

2) The second question is: what do we have to do to save the day? - My response was "Land for Terror"! We go in, give them a beating and steal from them something they hold very dear - Ummah Land, and we transfer it into the hands of the Kufr.

3) The third question is: How do we ensure that their plan does not bear fruit? - That is by opening a solid rift between them and the more pious, which does not even close upon our attacking Pakistan. And here I suggested we buy the support of the Afghans, to go after the Pakistanis, for their own reasons - the reasons can be the recent bombardments from Pakistan side into Afghanistan, it can be the killing of Ahmed Wali Karzai by the ISI or something else.

yes ofcourse, but they have managed to succesfully negate plan b for some time thanks to the new clear detergent

once that is sufficiently diluted to everyone's satisfaction - then the dhulai can begin

Conventional response to these scale of strikes is just not plausible and TSP knows it , for one there is no direct linkage like 26/11 and in all probability some local elements were heavily involved in planning, logistics and execution (albeit financed and ordered by TSP). IMHO , nothing will work better in this situation than our very own proxy war , although this one will definitely not involve killing innocent people inside TSP.

I like Rajesh's initial idea of a un-organized Pashtun army within TSP to stir up trouble and give us leverage within TSP to create a tacit understanding that you don't interfere here and I won't trouble you. But more importantly , we need to prove something and now, there are plenty of men running around in TSP with guns and RPG's in their hand . How about paying them once in a while to do our dirty work with no trace back to us. Like blowing a an odd General's house, ISI office, slaughter a few Hafiz Saeed types.

Of course this will need a tacit approval and plausible deniability by the highest authority himself and heavy involvement of a senior minister under whose guidance and command such buying and selling takes place, in the end it all comes down to . WHATS THE THRESHOLD for GoI ??

Undoing partition-

Some have advocated that India land a couple of brahmos or new clear bums or go to war- these will be openly overt actions- will not decimate TSPians completely.
This is will make tspians forever resistant to change wrt India. It will also justify partition.
India should not be the war aggressor- this is what TSPA/RAPES want to justify the existence of TSPA and the RAPES to rule over aam pakiadbuls.This is what the western world wants and feeds on TSPians in its desperate bid for = =
Here western media paints India as aggressor also and mollycoddles TSP to keep up its pretense of fighting India -- again justifying partition to pakiabduls. Hence RAPES are beholden to 3.5 friends who are its biggest benefactor. India knows these friends of TSP but it can only grit its teeth - only way to tackle it is to make their friendship to TSP irrelevant by progressing socioeconomically. This increases the costs of propping up RAPES enormously with time.
IOW if 3.5 friends economy does not grow, then TSP will be cast aside.

No war with TSP-
This is what Indian govt is doing irrespective of political dispensation- they vary only in the degree of chai biskoot sessions and appearance of docile behaviour or so called dhimmitude. More likely to be apparent with current opposition because of its branding with kuffrs. Hence it somersaults and prostates when asked to be docile. Even little sneeze will be easy to create the fear of kuffr India out to devour pakiabduls.

In reality goi has to see the big picture which it is doing. The strategic experts give their views on big picture and how to achieve it.IIRC Late Kao of RAW famously said allow TSP to stew of its own making. This is what India is trying to do by its hand offs approach.
Within these broad contours, govt officials, diplomats and minsters give their own views- but instead end up making donkeys of themselves. In this aspect they singularly fail to lift the morale of the citizens. These officials sap the confidence of Indian aam aadmi by inane comments.
They can better speak in dovish terms without being donkeys. But such is the caliber of these officials that they create hurdles within India scoring self goals.

Since partition, TSP RAPES has been trying to gain acceptance of its own populace that divison has been the mother of all solutions to its biradhers. India has been denying that to TSP RAPES by just taking in all the blows without being the aggressor. TSPians love when India brandishes its anger at pakis. This gives justification to them and hence the division. This makes TSP a reality. This in turn will further cement the justification of division. IOW RAPES have inferiority complex, always want to justify their actions in front of pakiabduls.
Hence TSPians will forever will be the aggressor to make India become angry which in turn makes the aam pakiabduls concur with RAPES.
This is their great game.
Meanwhile aam pakiabduls are caught in spiralling vortex of crime in their pure land. India has been the ascending higher and reaching farther than pakis ever can dream of.


Shiv particularly has been advocating in many posts for a long time that best chance of TSP improving is through trade and commerce with India. I have agreed and sometimes taken on his ideas in my posts also.
Common sense is what Shiv talks about to improve the socioeconomic conditions.
But this defeats the purpose of partition. If both countries becomes friends(not enemies) and develop trade - both are winners- India has no terror attacks and TSPians life styles improve enormously. This defeats the purpose of partition which can bring about unification of Bharat varsha.
The main problem will be loss of power and pelf of RAPES in TSP. Though they will be main beneficiaries of this trade, their power will be eroded massively. Currently their strength lies in making aam pakiabduls weaker than them and feed the fear of India -as a kuffr nation out to devour muslims. Amongst all, fear of faith is most intense in a pious abdul. This is what RAPES are doing in TSP.

So in a tragic twist of fate India will always on the defensive and TSP always on the offensive.
India wants the Indus land, it is ours but it has to make the pakiabduls believe TSP is an aberration, a tragic mistake and mischief done by RAPES in collusion with western powers. Hence India will always be on defensive. It wants the land and its people with minimal damage. Here India need not work hard on Indians. That is a big plus.


without war breaking, how to dismantle the idea of TSP-( ie partition is due to animosity of kuffrs on pakiabduls)
1) improving the socioeconomic conditions of Indians.I mean all including Indian muslims. The RAPES keep track of Indian muslims- if Indian muslims thrive successfully in kuffr India it undoes partition in the minds of pakiabduls. Astonishingly this is our brahmastra with least side effect among other options. This is slow but very effective.
2) maintaining communal harmony- preventing riots at any cost- this will be a handle to justify partition for pakiabduls. Punish the perpetrators severely according to the relevant laws. Needless to say diggys and his friends et al have to taken to task for vitiating the atmosphere.
3) Never be seen as an agressor on TSPians. Here RAPES (despite India trying hard to be spineless) will always try to paint India as an aggressor - ex in baluchistan, afghanisthan where India is branded as having a malevolent designs of pakiabduls.

4) aman ki tamasha types will have their uses but one should not rely on this BS to change the mindset of TSPians as it is the RAPES/WKKs who indulge in this tamasha.
5) maintaining a superior advantage in all fields particularly defence forces to thwart the designs of TSPA/RAPES at all times.
6) offer help openly to the TSPians in times of distress- whether TSPA/RAPES take it or leave is immaterial. This shows the softer side. This along side 1) will help in undoing partition in pakiabduls minds. Albeit indirectly TSPians in civil war also works well for pakiabduls to think India in favorable terms, may also go against RAPES.

Some of these are not palatable in the lifetime for an individual but a blip in India’s lifetime.

Ultimately the division should be undone -which will occur- but when -- may be in a few decades or more. This means there are no rabid pakianimals roaming around. Likely many of us will be in swarga lok enjoying these scenes

when this occurs - it is guaranteed 3.5 friends have lost their relevance in Indian subcontinent.
In a way TSP survival is linked with 3.5 friends relevance. Of course the biggest is unkil currently and for foreseeable future.

JMTs.