INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2011 08:39

the areas where Rus still has a monopoly of sorts are big strategic projects wherein other sources are hard to obtain or were not cost effective at that time.
- SSN
- MKI
- PAKFA
- Nirbhay engine
- Brahmos
- Phalcon/Midas airframe
- Akula lease

the ADS, C17, P8I and MRCA are also big projects - its their first losses in that size of deal in India. Arjun being alive and showing its heels to t90 is also a loss inspite if best efforts to stillbirth it...

other than the nirbhay engine I cant think of anything major new they have won in last 5 yrs. this was a single source problem as nobody else would sell us this tech.

I consider it unlikely that future phalcons or tankers will go to Rus. or the new line of SSK either.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jul 2011 08:39

John wrote: Top speed of a vessel is irrelevant (unless you are dealing with nuclear propulsion) since operating at that speed you are going to burn up lot of fuel, Kilo cruising/snorkeling speed is about 8-10 knots compared to surface combatants which can do 18 knots+. Scorpene/Kilo are designed to cover choke points, lay mines if we want an SSK with great range/endurance and speed we will have custom build one.

Apart from fuel - Subs are more noisy the faster they go. I recall reading somewhere that at low speeds - like 4-5 knots they are virtually undetectable. Apart from having a longer range.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2011 08:44

SSKs cannot sail with surface groups for escort role using current technology for long duration. SSNs can do that if needed.

suppose both SSK (snorkeling) and ships are sailing together at 15knot. a air threat emerges or a sub contact is detect and the task force commander orders all ships to ramp up to 25knot. in a couple of hrs the SSK will be left hopelessly behind the TF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jul 2011 09:21

We should be able to use couple of ATV's nuke reactors to drive ADS. We could think about this, for the second ADS, as it is only in the beginning stages.

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 Jul 2011 09:40

NRao wrote:
chackojoseph wrote: What has not been purchased from Russia that is world class? A/C Carrier, nuke subs, sealth a/c, helicopters missiles, tanks, ammo etc.

It will be worthwhile to know when we turned the otherway unless Russians could not supply?
Rather prophetic.

How about spares?

What use are all these without spares or after-sales support?

Though true these are not unique to India either.
Iran's F-14 had to cope up without spares or after-sales support.
Argentine, Paki Mirages had similar fate too.
We have faced several problems with the HAWK fleet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jul 2011 12:10

The Indo-Russian partnership regarding N-sub tech is the most important of all our defence deals.Until we have a credible sub-based deterrent,we will not be considered a fully-fledged N-power.The assistance being given to us is enabling us to design and fabricate our very own N-subs meant for our requirements.Without the Russian help this would be impossible.With more Indian built N-subs due to follow and with more varied and lethal weapon systems aboard-and we anticipate even larger SSBNs than the ATV-1 design ,we will require Russian assistance in this key sphere of def. fo many more years to come.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Jul 2011 19:51

^ Definitely, there is no doubt in Russian assistance. It was duly acknowledged. But to use that as a reason to accept all kind of abuses from Russians in other projects is childish, to put it politely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2011 20:31

it would not impossible, just take some more time and commit some mistakes being avoided now with known engineering results.
nothing is impossible if the resources of entire country are thrown behind a life-and-death problem.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 11 Jul 2011 21:47

Singha wrote:it would not impossible, just take some more time and commit some mistakes being avoided now with known engineering results.
nothing is impossible if the resources of entire country are thrown behind a life-and-death problem.

+1 Singha ji.It is precisely this kind of thinking that without external support India wouldn't be able to achieve anything , which makes India vulnerable to blackmail.Given adequate resources and if right priority is accorded then we can achieve closure on any project.This does not mean that I am devaluing the Russian contributions to our various efforts.Out of all the nations they have been most steadfast in their friendship and hopefully this will continue in future as well.

khwaja · Post by **khwaja** » 11 Jul 2011 22:02

Agreed. Arihant is a great achievement. And we should be rather thankful to the Russians for their assitance inspite of wht I've felt as our "strategic ignoring" of Russia... Was reading an article last week that the Armed forces of India have done about 50 military exercises with USA in the past 7 years, while thy have done only 3 with Russia over the same time frame (Kanwal Sibal). We do not want the Indo-Russian relationship to break down to a buyer-seller relationship, we need more creativity in our foreign policy formulation. More India-Russia student exchange programmes maybe?

We've been jointly developing hardware (with various countries) for a few decades now.. BRFites, let's post a question.. How does a nation develop "independent capability"; I mean, how can a country like ours, be at the leading edge of the curve, rather than follow it..? Wht's the organisational / societal structure that leads to technological self-reliance?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jul 2011 22:05

Actually it was for past 25 years that BARC/DRDO has been trying to build ATV without much success and a spy story to make it more interesting. First many hull and reactors design were rejected by Navy and then they toyed with integrating Indian reactor with Charlie 2 design which were with us without any success.

It was only afte 98 N blast that the criticality of triad which led ABV to involve the Russians and start the project a fresh which was completed within a decades time culminating with launch of Arihant , BK in his book is on record stating that two reactors for ATV were imported from Russia.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jul 2011 22:08

While Russia was trying to survive the Soviet breakup, we have supported them with keeping their research staff and production facilities alive. Sukhoi, ATV, Nerpa, Vikramaditya etc. IIRC, the SU order was purely political.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2011 01:09

This is the reason, I always wish, just for the sake of schedules don't tweak the critical path of projects that drdo labs works. It is not impossible to build the n-reactor for ATV without Russian help. It is just that it would have taken years more. Now, there are other solutions to it, from project management to technical management and resource, and budgets. Organic developments happen only for the primary inventor, and after that most metrics are measured against super power nations who have invested and done that on a scale, we can't imagine.

May the Russians have expected a real scratch back for other projects after this and trying to attribute to various things. I fear, the same for Kaveri engine, where we would take more time to deliver, but would do so without Fr or Rs help.

The question is if that is acceptable for us, and now are we willing to put more investments into home grown setups like high altitude flight testing as is done at gromov, and more dedicated time spent on miniaturizing n-reactor for atv, without any pressure from user? this project management and babu speaks are a challenge more than the project itself.

--
The reason we failed to deliver in time is not because we can't, but not putting the right resources and right requirements at the right time... and being penny wise and pound foolish, on not investing on resources for talents who take up jobs elsewhere for better pay packet. We can find many reasons, but definitely not we are not capable of building one.

It is the fault of the setup.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Jul 2011 07:53

SaiK ji,

in India the supporting infra for design and development of jet engines is largely lacking. we have just started taking baby steps in that direction. to design a world class engine comparable to those being used by Russia/American/French/European fighters, we need an entire infra setup that is dedicated to modelling, simulation, and testing. these facilities are just beginning to take shape. it will take years for them to be fully finished (constructed), and then some more time to import/build critical tech needed for these operations and then some more time to work on these things and get a good idea of how to plan out an entire engine design program.

if we wait around for all that to happen, it will be 2020 before you know it. based on all the news that i've read on Kaveri, it seems to me that DRDO has exhausted all of its *present* resources. they have hit a critical knowledge barrier and to move past this, they need hard testing and data. in the absence of those facilities in India, if work has to move forward, there is no option but to look outside of India. it is better to suck up our pride on this one and gather as much as possible from any possible source. the experience gained on making Kaveri a finished product, combined with investment in infrastructure will pave the way for future design programs that will be much more robust and time sensitive.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2011 08:55

No, i don't believe that.. if DRDO has exhausted that means, that was within their budget and possibilities to hire the brains and pay them to do so, which also means, least money input for the max bang in the minds of babus and planners.

No, 2020 may be made true by how we have planned and executed projects since 50 years.. now, still not late to correct. We may lag in time, but nobody here is asking or holding the forces to buy everything from what comes out of DRDO, and that never was the case as well. So, we are not at security risk here.

I don't believe the theory of knowledge is exhausted, nor was it ever gained in the first place. These skill sets, would not be gained by reading books or bribing middlemen or buying products from on screw driver basis from firangies. Never.

These skill sets have to be learnt the hard way.. yes 2020.. so be it. Let us say, then, what we have, the khans nor the russkies have....I know it is hard to fathom such thoughts.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 12 Jul 2011 18:14

Could someone say what are the specific Indian contributions to the nuclear submarine project. There must be some. Otherwise, you get the impression that this is essentially a Russian vessel, with only Indian assembly. What are the sub systems that Indians themselves developed?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Jul 2011 18:34

I don't believe the theory of knowledge is exhausted, nor was it ever gained in the first place. These skill sets, would not be gained by reading books or bribing middlemen or buying products from on screw driver basis from firangies. Never.

These skill sets have to be learnt the hard way.. yes 2020.. so be it. Let us say, then, what we have, the khans nor the russkies have....I know it is hard to fathom such thoughts.

when you are making a jet engine, book knowledge is useless. but still need to gain knowledge from some place. in this case, that would be conducting experiments and gathering data. this is how you learn to design and build critical technologies. what i'm saying is India is way behind in this compared to others who do build jet engines. when you don't have the proper resources to carry out simulation and testing of your ideas, you are groping in darkness. you have no way to test your ideas. instead, you need to actually build a new engine or physically incorporate changes into the engine and test it physically. this is a big waste of time. you move to this step only after you're confident that the changes you wish to make, can give you some concrete results. this is why modelling and simulation tech is a huge complementary industry worth billions of dollars. ideas are tested here first, before they are incorporated. as long as DRDO/India lacks in this support infra, jet engine development will never be fruitful. as I said before, steps are being taken to rectify it. using offsets to build a Trisonic Wind Tunnel will be a huge boost for several different tech aspects of missiles, engines, fighter design, etc.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 13 Jul 2011 04:52

Thought Nirbhay engine was to be a modified version of Kaveri (Laghu shakti?). We must be able to make such an engine 100% in India as we need CMs in large numbers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jul 2011 05:37

using offsets to build a Trisonic Wind Tunnel will be a huge boost for several different tech aspects of missiles, engines, fighter design, etc.

Help? Yes. Huge boost? Time will tell, but I am not convinced that this wind tunnel will make an immediate impact (note that it will be some 3-5 years before it stands up).

Crucial items that can contribute and stop India from being dependent: #1 Project Management, material scientists, manufacturing expertise and supply chain experts.

They have enough brain power to design IMHO. Again, "enough" - for Indian requirements (do NOT compare them with those in the US or Russia, etc).

And, I sincerely hope that India gets out of this mind set of "world class" stuff. IF it happens to be world class - GREAT. Else let it be good enough for India - that is the best.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 13 Jul 2011 09:19

NRao,
as of now, there is no alternative, especially for India, other than wind tunnels. even US isn't putting all it money in alternatives to wind tunnels b/c simply put wind tunnels are tried and tested methods that work. a facility which can simulate 3.0 mach will be a very useful tool for India. if we want to make to make a serious effort into hypersonics, it will be necessary. and future fighter programs will definitely benefit from this too.

as for project management etc, first revise the salaries of engineers and scientists to acceptable levels. these guys have to send their own kids to college some day. if they don't get a seat in govt colleges, then parents need to be prepared to shell out donations, etc. Govt has to keep that in mind when they decide on pay scales.

supply chain is a logistical issue. for a country with huge manpower in IT/support industries, supply chain really is not a problem if the basic production technology exists and is ready to go on line. perhaps, more innovative ways need to be explored to transition from Lab scale production to full scale production. things like DRDO successfully making a titanium alloy, but they tech going wasted b/c the Military still wants to import the special steel from Russia....now that is an example of lab success but failure transition to mass production. the reasons behind that have to be found out.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 13 Jul 2011 12:07

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Could someone say what are the specific Indian contributions to the nuclear submarine project. There must be some. Otherwise, you get the impression that this is essentially a Russian vessel, with only Indian assembly. What are the sub systems that Indians themselves developed?

Varoon, there's almost 60 pages of discussion behind you. I think all your questions will be answered once you read through.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jul 2011 16:06

When one talks of "resources",the most critical is "human resources" ,the "knowledge power" that Kalam always talks about.We have a huge shortage of such resources in aero-space tech apart from other special fields.Not too long ago we were told that the team for the IJT were being given additional responsibility for the FGFA due to a shortage of manpower!
In naval tech,especially design of nuclear subs,warships etc.,our knowledge of building compact N-reactors is at an early stage.Add to that our need to improve our matallurgical skills ,the key to many high-tech systems must also b given major priority.The recent reports of how the Chinese are dominating global rare-earth mineral mining,manufacture,etc., used in all high-tech industries especially defence,is an alarming fact which also needs to be taken care of.How many chip manufacturing facilities do we have? Just one!

One excellent fact about our ATV projects is that no less than 5 N-subs are being planned for phase-1.The reports that ATV-2 is well under way is excellent news,indicating that ATV-1 is faring well in her trials and that hopefully by the end of the decade we should have all 5 SSBNs commissioned,at the rate of at least one every two years.We also need SSGNs in similar number if not double.The GOI/IN should plan to have in the future one N-sub being commissioned every12/18 months.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2011 17:46

So, on the naming convention, between G and B, going by what our labs have done, the ballistics MIRVs have guidance too. Now, if we say SSCM and SSBM, I see the difference more clearly.. but then again, we just need SSN with both B and C types being able to launch from the same tubes.

One goes out to the orbit, and the other just perhaps skims over the surface or few 100 meters above ground and gets guided. It has to do with extra instrumentations, and interfaces with satellites, navigational and point to point data transfers between the missile and source.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Jul 2011 18:01

tejas wrote:Thought Nirbhay engine was to be a modified version of Kaveri (Laghu shakti?). We must be able to make such an engine 100% in India as we need CMs in large numbers.

Subject to the correction by gurus- I think Nirbhay, which is going to take only one run to the target and will not be using aviation fuel may not be having any kind of Kaveri Eng. Someting far weaker, cheaper and which is good for one time will be made and used.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2011 20:01

Really like Kalamji's reusable hyper concept, besides the speed, we could use it for point target destruction, and return to take up new mission. We could think a little more sdre rather just on hypersonics in the first phase.

Get the payload delivered, and return back , and take up the cycle of missions. Now, next step would be hyper stuffs. Once established, we could have the platform modifications for minaturized UCAV missions.. perhaps even launched from subs.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jul 2011 08:07

I think I have a picture with full view of the Arihant Submarine ATV-1

. But I am not sure if it really is Arihant, but I am positive about it. Should I post it here for the Gurus to verify it.

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 24 Jul 2011 08:31

please post it, if it is not one thats already posted on the forum and also the source of it

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jul 2011 09:58

I found these pictures while surfing on Google Maps. I think the Submarine on the left hand side is Arihant.

I don't know which submarine is on the right hand side of Arihant.(Maybe Gurus help out a bit

)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/arihant.png

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/arihant2.jpg

The proof of my assumption is this Photograph of Arihant from the Congress Report Card:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/arihant.jpg

It has the same white design in front of its hull as the that on the picture I found on the submarine on the left side. So here goes for you all experts to decide if it really is Arihant.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Jul 2011 10:03

Thanks, SagarAg!

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jul 2011 10:06

^^You are welcome

^^ Do you think its Arihant.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jul 2011 10:10

I dont think its Arihant, It looks small for a 6000 tons Sub

It could be a Sindhughosh class sub Undergoing refit

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Jul 2011 10:13

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jul 2011 10:14

May be the angle, the Sub on the right definitely looks fatter/bigger than the one on the left.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 24 Jul 2011 10:14

The sub in the front have the same white color paint scheme above it as in the congress report card but is too small to be a SSBN.
The sub behind has more length than the front sub. So we can assume the sub in congress report card is not Arihant?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2011 10:20

both are Kilo submarines. they are the same size if you measure with scale.

sub in congress report is the Arihant. the sail is much different than Kilo and has diving planes.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jul 2011 10:24

^^ I can't say how recent are these pictures by the Google Satellite Images..but it definitely carried the white design in front of it like that of Arihant..so I thought of putting it up.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2011 10:29

that is the sonar area, maybe all IN subs use that. is probably painted black in the end after refit.
http://www.dailynews.lk/2006/02/14/z_new350.jpg

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jul 2011 10:30

I dont think Arihant will be parked in a open drydock for a long time to come
And i dont think putting white paint on any sub will be difficult

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Jul 2011 10:42

Oh well, the 32 minutes of fun was worth it.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 24 Jul 2011 11:42

SagarAg wrote:I think the Submarine on the left hand side is Arihant.

if you look at the vessel alongside the trailing Sub ... that is a Veer-class.
Going by the dimensions of the Veer class, neither of the subs are anything in the region of Arihant's displacement.
I do not think either of the subs is the big-one ... irrespective of the similarity of the painting scheme on the bow.