Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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shaardula
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

sridhar this will go under subscription in a few days. please let me post it in full.
Reinventing Pakistan (Outlook India)

The long-term defence of Pakistan therefore demands a determined ideological offensive and a decisive break with the past. Pakistan must reinvent itself as a state that is seen to care for its people. Instead of seeking to fix the world's problems - Kashmir, Afghanistan and Palestine included - it must work to first fix its own.

PERVEZ HOODBHOY

Now that the army has turned serious, Baitullah Mehsud cannot expect to stroll down Constitution Avenue any time soon, nor hope to sit in the presidency. A few thousand mountain barbarians, even if trained by Al Qaeda's best, cannot possibly seize power from a modern, well-armed state with 600,000 soldiers. The spectre of Pakistan collapsing in six months - a fear expressed by a senior US military adviser in March - has evaporated.

But there is little cause for elation. Daily terror attacks across the country give abundant proof that religious extremism has streamed down the mountains into the plains. Through abductions, beheadings and suicide bombings, Taliban insurgents are destabilising Pakistan, damaging its economy and spreading despondency.

Look at Islamabad, a city of fear. Machine-gun bunkers are ubiquitous while traffic barely trickles past concrete blocks placed across its super-wide roads. Upscale restaurants, fearing suicide bombers, have removed their signs although they still hope clients will remember. Who will be the next target? Girls' schools, internet cafes, bookshops, or western clothing stores with mannequins? Or perhaps shops selling toilet paper, underwear, and other un-Islamic goods?

The impact on Pakistan's women is enormous. Throwing acid, or threatening to do so, has been spectacularly successful in making women embrace modesty. Today there is scarcely a female face visible anywhere in the Frontier province. Men are also changing dress - anxious private employers, government departments and NGOs have advised their male employees in Peshawar and other cities to wear shalwar-kameez rather than trousers. Video shops are being bombed out of business, and many barbers have put "no-shave" notices outside their shops.

If public support were absent, extremist violence could be relatively easy to deal with. But extremism does not lie merely at the fringes. As an example, let us recall that 5,000 people crammed the streets outside Lal Masjid to pray behind the battle-hardened pro-Taliban militant leader, Maulana Abdul Aziz, the day after he was released from prison on the orders of interior minister Rehman Malik.

In the political arena, the extremists have high-profile cheerleaders like Imran Khan, Qazi Hussain Ahmad and Hamid Gul who rush to justify every attack on Pakistan's people and culture. To them it makes no difference that Baitullah Mehsud proudly admits to the murder of Allama Dr Sarfaraz Ahmad Naeemi, the recent Peshawar mosque bombing, the earlier Wah slaughter and scores of other hideous suicide attacks. Like broken gramophone records, they chant "Amrika, Amrika, Amrika" after every new Taliban atrocity.

Nevertheless, bad as things are, there is a respite. To the relief of those who wish to see Pakistan survive, the army finally moved against the Taliban menace. But, while the state has committed men to battle, it cannot provide them a convincing reason why they must fight.

For now some soldiers have bought into the amazing invention that the Baitullahs and Fazlullahs are India's secret agents. Others have been told that they are actually fighting a nefarious American-Jewish plot to destabilise Pakistan. They now believe that Pakistan's mullahs are actually being paid by RAW, Mossad, and the CIA. To inspire revenge, still others are being shown the revolting Taliban-produced videos of Pakistani soldiers being tortured and beheaded. :shock:

That the enemy lacks an accurate name typifies the confusion and contradiction within. In official parlance they are called "militants" or "extremists" but never religious extremists. It is astonishing that the semi-literate Fazlullah, on whose head the government has now placed a price, is reverentially referred to as "maulana".On the other hand there is no hesitation in describing Baloch fighters - who fight for a nationalist cause rather than a religious one - as rebels or terrorists. (ramana's point)

A muddled nation can still fight, but not very well and not for too long. Self-deception enormously increases vulnerability. Yet, Pakistan's current army and political leaders cannot alone be blamed for the confusion; history's baggage is difficult to dispense with.

To say what really lies at the heart of Pakistan's problems will require summoning more courage than presently exists. The unmentionable truth - one etched in stone - is that when a state proclaims to have a religious mission, it inevitably privileges those who organise religious life and interpret religious text. It then becomes difficult - perhaps impossible - to challenge those who claim to fight for religious causes. After all, what's wrong with the Taliban mission to bring the Sharia to Pakistan?

If there was one solid unchallengeable version of the faith, then at least there would be a clear answer to this question. But conflict becomes inevitable once different models and interpretations start competing. Whose version of the Sharia should prevail? Whose jihad is the correct one? Who shall decide? Lacking a central authority - such as a pope or caliph - every individual or group can claim to be in possession of the divine truth. The murder of Dr Naeemi by the Taliban comes from this elementary fact.

For now the Baitullahs, Fazlullahs, Mangal Baghs, and their ilk are on the run. Yet, they could still win some day. Even if killed, others would replace them. So, while currently necessary, military action alone can never be sufficient. Nor will peace come from merely building more roads, schools and hospitals or inventing a new justice system.

Ultimately it is the power of ideas that shall decide between victory and defeat. It is here that Pakistan is weakest and most vulnerable. A gaping philosophical and ideological void has left the door open to demagogues who exploit resource scarcity and bad governance. They use every failing of the state to create an insurrectionary mood and churn out suicide bombers. Only a few Islamic scholars, like Dr Naeemi, have ventured to challenge them.

The long-term defence of Pakistan therefore demands a determined ideological offensive and a decisive break with the past. Nations win wars only if there is a clear rallying slogan and a shared goal.

For this, Pakistan must reinvent itself as a state that is seen to care for its people. Instead of seeking to fix the world's problems - Kashmir, Afghanistan and Palestine included - it must work to first fix its own.

A nation's best defence is a loyal citizenry. This can be created only by offering equal rights and opportunities to all regardless of province, language and, most importantly, religion and religious sect. Navigating the way to heaven must be solely an individual's concern, not that of the state.
A working hypothesis in BRF has been that India's secularism is chankian in that it upped the ante for maududi's whores and they overcompensated*. Hoodboy seems to agree. Hoodboy is saying, they donot even have a coherent narrative to inspire their soldiers and thus have to invent slogans. i think the longer we let them stew in this state of uncertainty the better in the long run. meanwhile we have to remember that even if there is now a low hanging mango, it is not yet ripe for plucking.

* In Benis dhaagha there is solid freudian proof of this overcompensation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by svinayak »

shaardula wrote:

In the political arena, the extremists have high-profile cheerleaders like Imran Khan, Qazi Hussain Ahmad and Hamid Gul who rush to justify every attack on Pakistan's people and culture. To them it makes no difference that Baitullah Mehsud proudly admits to the murder of Allama Dr Sarfaraz Ahmad Naeemi, the recent Peshawar mosque bombing, the earlier Wah slaughter and scores of other hideous suicide attacks. Like broken gramophone records, they chant "Amrika, Amrika, Amrika" after every new Taliban atrocity.
We have Indians who invite Imran Khan who is basically an extremists and who supports killing of people.
For now some soldiers have bought into the amazing invention that the Baitullahs and Fazlullahs are India's secret agents. Others have been told that they are actually fighting a nefarious American-Jewish plot to destabilise Pakistan. They now believe that Pakistan's mullahs are actually being paid by RAW, Mossad, and the CIA. To inspire revenge, still others are being shown the revolting Taliban-produced videos of Pakistani soldiers being tortured and beheaded. :shock:
This is the most dramatic change in the Pak Army.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Singha »

I was reading greene's strategies of war book today. a certain devious and chankian method to the inaction and apparent madness that characterise our Govts response to the pakistan and naxal problems became apparent.

it also became apparent the kind of strategy the chinese were using....they had gone through periods like a couple of centuries called "period of warring states" where state survival depended on chankian moves.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

so what this is chankian strategy that you read about? there has to be a weighing in at some time. otherwise there is a danger of it perputuating a meme of impotence. if pakis assume that it is good, but if indians begin to internalize it then it is a problem.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by CRamS »

shaardula wrote:so what this is chankian strategy that you read about? there has to be a weighing in at some time. otherwise there is a danger of it perputuating a meme of impotence. if pakis assume that it is good, but if indians begin to internalize it then it is a problem.
Danger? TSP has alreadty cashed in on India's impotence.Right now it has been codified and given megotiating status by India that TSP cannot act on LeT until India talks Kashmir. If this is not a victory for TSP, I don't know what is.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by sanjaykumar »

Ultimately it is the power of ideas that shall decide between victory and defeat. It is here that Pakistan is weakest and most vulnerable.


And that is why India is such a colossus-what a lot of Indians on this board and elsewhere do not realise is that Arunkidhoti Roy, Kuldip Nayar, Primefool Bidwai and their ilk are a testament to India's strength and not symptomatic of the proverbial soft state. Pakistan has historically fit the third world mould of militaristic nationalism, as contrived as the country's name. Which explains the sickness of Pakistan: as they float belly up in the Arabian sea, Pakistanis clutch their dear Kashmiri brethren to their bosom. Even the Kashmiri Muslim seems now to be embarrassed by this unrelenting love.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Dipanker »

CRamS wrote:
shaardula wrote:so what this is chankian strategy that you read about? there has to be a weighing in at some time. otherwise there is a danger of it perputuating a meme of impotence. if pakis assume that it is good, but if indians begin to internalize it then it is a problem.
Danger? TSP has alreadty cashed in on India's impotence.Right now it has been codified and given megotiating status by India that TSP cannot act on LeT until India talks Kashmir. If this is not a victory for TSP, I don't know what is.
And what do you think will be the result of talks? Will Pakistan be able to back to the cyle of terrorism -- talk -- terrorism --- talk --- ... which it did pretty much up until 26/11 ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by NRao »

I feel that the old government of India was shackled by the partnerships to keep it afloat. I expect to see a different - a more aggressive GoI for the next few years. The main thrust will be economic growth, with an emphasis on making Mumbai a financial center - rivaling Singapore. I hope/expect to see a decline on poverty in the next five years. Kamal Nath has already stated that he is preparing for a gigantic improvement in the road infrastructure - he should be inviting international tenders to spend a COOL $92 BILLION in five years (remind me, what is MRCA?).

Why all this thesis?

India cannot get there without bottling this terrorist drama by Pakistan. In a year or two - IF India plays her cards well - Pakistan should be off our radar (sorry, BR will be boring in that respect, BR becoming China centric - let us settle for BR-look-east).

India has no choice - I think.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Anujan »

Article by Ayesha Siddiqa. Sadly she was born on the wrong side of the border and spends her time defending the indefensible. She is a bit prone to equal-equal statements, but overall I find her okay. This article is remarkable for being among the first (if not the first), which hints at the idea that the taliban is just armed version of the society which subscribes to the idealogy of Pakistan.
What are we up against?

However, what I gathered from the debate was the need to define what we are up against. Is it an insurgency that we face or terrorism? Clarity on the issue is necessary. {I thought it was miscreantism}

Contrary to what Imran Khan would like people to believe, the war inside Pakistani territory is not about restoring the honour of the Pakhtun or evicting the invading forces, but about a specific group of people trying to change the nature of the state.


Meanwhile, state functionaries and significant groups in society have failed to build a consensus on how best to fight off Taliban terrorism for two reasons. First, there is the failure to properly define the conflict. Second, there is an inability to differentiate between the Taliban and the rest of the population due to common ideological threads. Many tend to argue, all that the Taliban are asking for is more religion to bring improvement in governance. Perhaps, the only issue on which people tend to disagree with the Taliban is the extent of their violence. .... the Taliban could be tolerated because of the common ideological thread....But what we are witnessing at the moment is an internal expansion which is aimed outwards on the basis of ideology. {Ah, here in BRF we call it the more pure giving an IED mubarak to the less pure. Nevertheless, this is the first article in the Pakistani press that I have seen, which hits the nail on its head. Taliban is the ugly face of Pakistan. They are the logical outcome of the principles on which the state is founded}
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Pranay »

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

The reality in Swat...
Signs abound that the military’s campaign in Swat is less than decisive. The military extended its deadline for ending the campaign. Even in the areas where progress has been made, the military controls little more than urban centers and roads, say those who have fled the areas. The military has also failed to kill or capture even one top Taliban commander.

It was “very disappointing,” said Aftab Ahmed Sherpao, a senior politician from the region, that none of the commanders had been eliminated. It turned out, he said, that early reports of the capture of Ibn Amin, a particularly brutal commander from Matta, were incorrect.
Indeed, most of the damage from the recent fighting appears confined to small agricultural hamlets outside Mingora, according to interviews with displaced people. Some said they had heard from recent arrivals to the camps that areas 500 yards off the roads remained in control of the militants.

The “outlook was bleak” in Swat because the civilian government did not have the money or the skills to rebuild, said Shuja Nawaz, the author of a history of the Pakistani military and now the director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council in Washington.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by NRao »

Many tend to argue, all that the Taliban are asking for is more religion to bring improvement in governance
What would happen if governance in Pakistan is great (not just improves)? Will the Taliban thinking fade into nothingness?

I feel that there is a convergence of thinking between the people and the Taliban. A convergence needs two parties/entities.

IMHO, the Taliban want to impose Islamic "diktat" (for the lack of a better word - do nto mean to say that Islam is dictatorial), rather than improve governance.

The people want better governance and the means to do that is Islam. It seems to me that the people once they get better governance through Islam are also wanting other "needs" - such as music, dancing, etc.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Arun_S »

Prem wrote:India dictates terms of the dialogue
[By b] I Nalayakullah[/b]

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... e-dialogue"
By I Nalayakullah

[edited..ramana]
Last edited by ramana on 29 Jun 2009 01:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited. Ramana
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

Holbrooke calls BS on TSPA claims..

Too soon to declare victory in Swat: US

TRIESTE, Italy (Reuters) - US envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke has said it is too soon for Pakistan to declare victory in its Swat Valley, where the Army has driven back Taliban insurgents.
Holbrooke, attending a G8 conference on stabilising Pakistan and Afghanistan in Italy, told Reuters that it was too early for Pakistan to announce victory in Swat.
“The true test is when the refugees go back to Swat. Will they have security? Will they be protected?” he said.
“Will the Army be able to keep the Taliban from coming back down over the hills? And the bill for reconstruction in Swat is going to be enormous - over a billion dollars, maybe over 2 billion.”
“We’re very gratified that the Army led the charge back into Swat and that they’ve driven the militants out of the Swat Valley. But we have a long way to go before we know the end of the story. So there is a lot left in this saga,” he maintained
When asked ‘is there a number on how many civilians were killed in Swat’, Holbrooke flatly replied “No.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

NRao wrote:
Many tend to argue, all that the Taliban are asking for is more religion to bring improvement in governance
What would happen if governance in Pakistan is great (not just improves)? Will the Taliban thinking fade into nothingness?

I feel that there is a convergence of thinking between the people and the Taliban. A convergence needs two parties/entities.

IMHO, the Taliban want to impose Islamic "diktat" (for the lack of a better word - do nto mean to say that Islam is dictatorial), rather than improve governance.

The people want better governance and the means to do that is Islam. It seems to me that the people once they get better governance through Islam are also wanting other "needs" - such as music, dancing, etc.
i think this question has been asked previously on brf many months ago. why doesn't the tsp adopt sharia and be done with it? after all, there are other muslim countries with sharia and they are all doing fine. even politically they can always find a place for the taliban hotheads at all sorts of levels. it is their chosen destiny to be an islamic nation, why dont they go the whole hog and be one? i think that is where they are headed and all this is to prime the sdre in tfta clothing towards that. with islam, as guiding theory it is not a big dig, but they are not usefully homogenous like iran and that is where the problem is and the genocide of shias & baloch and other pesky groups comes into play.

some of it is also pakjabi hegemony. and because of this they have not worked out a system that can provide an outlet to local aspirations. forget the tribes, the baloch etc., in their land they have p number of otherwise worthless characters who command respect and allegience of 1000s of armed men. if i had 1000 men under me, i would want some say and pull in my neighbourhood and i defintely will try & see if i can expand and get another 1000 men under me. if the pakjabis can let go of small roles and allow others some space then they will be hamid gul's wettest dream. but pakjab is not rich enough(and will never be 'coz there is nothing to dig) for the pakjabi elite to keep the local population, from whom they derive their power, in borgeoius-esque stupor a-la ameerkhan, even as they manipulate the rest of the country in chankian fashion. there is still hunger and attendent aspiration in heartland pakjab, and the elite have to satisfy those and that means pakjabi hegemony and that means problems.

one of the most important things that HG guy said, and rightly so, is that theirs is a country that has millions of people who are pathologically ideological. they have more hotheads than us and for HG this is very important. and so madrassa math is right. for every 1 hothead in india there are 10 in tsp. on a normal day and before cataclysm, there are 10 pakistanis who are itching and willing to fight for every 1 indian of that type.

there is a big payoff for pakistan if they can keep this level of hotheadedness and still somehow achieve coherance and that is what they are hunting for and are fighting the inescapable contradictions in high energy(jasba?) with coherance. short of fumigating, india's best bet is to let them stew in this dynamic. the risk being they come out of this mess with ultra clear coherance and purpose. and that would be a huge huge problem for india.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

I know what you're thinking but remember this is is Humayun "Monica Lewinsky" Gobar...btw...which one of you goat his goat..if you click through the link, you'll see monica's latest rant is about whichever BRFiite wrote him and rubbed it in...

Winning ways

Sure Pakistan needed some good news, as everyone is ranting on, but I find the contention rather overdone. After all, a cricket match is only a cricket match. It is not tantamount to defeating terrorists and ending foreign interference in our land much less ending all our problems. Have you ever thought about it though, that none of Pakistan's security problems are homegrown but were begotten outside its borders and we have been left holding the baby every time like mutts? The freedom uprising in Indian subjugated Kashmir is a British-Indian creation but it is we who are landed with Kashmiri refugees and freedom fighters, including in their latest incarnation, the Lashkar-i-Taiba.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

Threats to Punjabi teachers in Balochistan

Schools in the province remain dysfunctional

By Malik Siraj Akbar

QUETTA: The Balochistan Assembly (BA) was told on Saturday about the growing sense of insecurity among Punjabi teachers at the Balochistan Residential College (BRC) in Khuzdar.

A large number of teachers have requested the Ministry of Education for their immediate transfer for security reasons in the wake of a newly unleashed cycle of target killings of teachers, supposedly by Baloch militants who have called upon Punjabis to vacate the province.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by arun »

X Posted.

Dhimmidom in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:
Taliban’ demand Jizya from Hindus in Battagram


Sunday, June 28, 2009
Our correspondent

MANSEHRA: An unknown caller Saturday demanded Rs six million as Jizya from the Hindu community of Battagram district, it was learnt.

Sources said an unidentified caller posing himself a rep of Taliban phoned an active Hindu leader Dr Parkas in Battagram, and asked him to collect Rs6m Jizya (tax imposed on non-Muslims) from his Battagram community. The caller, according to sources, said those minorities living in Battagram must pay the Jizya. He asked the doctor to collect Rs6m from Hindu community and pay the amount to Taliban. ……………………………..

The News
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Vivek_A »

arun...this might be the same dr prakash i-ass amir wrote about..

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=176351

Pakistan being short-changed again
Islamabad diary

Friday, May 08, 2009
Ayaz Amir

Here are two SMSs I have received from Mingora: (1) "Qeyamat ka sama apni nazron se dekh raha hoon; log curfew relaxation ka faida utha kar bhag rahe hain" (images of the Day of Judgment I am seeing with my eyes; taking advantage of the relaxation of curfew people are running away); and (2) "Collective funeral of 13 children, three women and one man offered. They were killed by morter (sic) shell. 3 other (sic) also killed, 25 injured children and women in clinic of Dr Prakash in critical (sic) no doctr (sic) and medicine available. They all belonging to Shahdara main Mingora city."

I got a call on Wednesday evening informing me that in the Bagh area of central Mingora there was no doctor available, all having left, except for Dr Gian Prakash - as you can guess by his name, a Hindu. Pakistan we say was created in the name of Islam. And this is what under the general emblem of Islam we are doing to this country and its citizens. Shouldn't we dedicate what remains of Pakistan - our Bengali brothers and sisters having gone their own way - to our common humanity?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

i know it is stupid to copare a civilization like iran with tsp. but imagine if they find coherence like them. as that charming talib, and clearly a pathan speaking urdu said, said on youtube , 'inshallah koshish karlenge'. that is what hamid gul types are doing, koshish kar rahe he.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by RajeshA »

shaardula wrote:India's best bet is to let them (the Pakistanis) stew in this dynamic.
Image

The more the Green Hulk is hit, the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets. The more aggressive the Red Hulk gets the hotter he gets. So the Green Hulk lets the Red Hulk really hit him hard, until the Green Hulk becomes stronger, while the Red Hulk becomes too hot for his own good. So in spite of his cunning and strength, in the end the Red Hulk loses, and the Green Hulk wins.

Ah yes! And the Red Hulk was supported by the American Military, but the Green Hulk, the hermit, is still the hero! :wink:

PS: Pakistan is a different green! So no need to mix up the two.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

rajesh, you had some very intesrting ideas about indian muslims. perhaps we can discuss the role and impact of IM in a nationalistic narrtive on a separate thread? specifically you want IM a greater load of the responsibilty. i love that idea. i think a lot of hot air will crumble under that pressure. a critical analysis of sacchar is also due on brf.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Nitesh »

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by NRao »

They have founded a new country - started by Bhutto. The current President.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Time for India to cooperate
India needs to move away from a single-track approach of insisting on elimination of India-related terrorist groups as a pre-condition for normal interaction. India-related terrorism should be viewed as part of Pakistan’s overall problem of extremism and terrorism.

India needs to work with Pakistan to cope with terrorism and focus on problem solving in the context of India-Pakistan dialogue.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by SSridhar »

I don't believe this. Not every frame of every photo nor every inch of the Presidential palace has to have Quaid-e-Dud's picture. "Geo News' is trying to create problems for Zardari. The only person who has consistently opposed hanging Jinnah's picture, even in his Parliamentary chamber's office, is Fazl-ur-Rehman. Of course, at various times, the great Mawdudi had referred to Jinnah as Kafir-e-Azam. :lol: And, in circa 2007, the Jama'at-Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) published a list of 'freedom heroes' and Jinnah's name didn't figure in that :lol: JUI information secretary Maulana Amjad Khan said that Jinnah and his companions would not be commemorated because they had not done anything for Islam. “Jinnah was not imprisoned during the independence struggle. That is why he did nothing worth remembering,” Khan added. He said the JUI would remember only those leaders who had sacrificed their lives for the creation of Pakistan or who had been imprisoned by the British Raj.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by pgbhat »

Not a single RAPE spits out about ISI stopping support for Tanzeems :roll: ..... only India should give give give give :(( :evil:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shaardula »

pgbhat wrote:
Not a single RAPE spits out about ISI stopping support for Tanzeems :roll: ..... only India should give give give give :(( :evil:
exactly.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Will South Punjab be another Swat ? - Edit by Najam Sethi
The interior minister, Rehman Malik, has told the Financial Times that “we suspect something similar to Swat may arise in South Punjab”. . . . The ex-information minister under the previous PMLQ government, Muhammad Ali Durrani, has proposed in parliament that South Punjab or the “Seraiki” region of Punjab should be made into a separate province in order to save it from decades of neglect — the kind of neglect that often breeds desperate movements of terrorism. In fact, more and more writers with expertise in the growth of terrorism in Pakistan are clubbing South Punjab together with FATA and Swat as the region most vulnerable to the Taliban-Al Qaeda network.

South Punjab comprises 13 districts with a total population of around 27 million. These district. There is a long-fuse movement for a Seraiki province in the south which has had its ups and downs, but is often demoralised because of lack of support from the more powerful North and Central Punjab whose influential personalities have given themselves agricultural land in the south.

How bad is the situation in South Punjab? There is not much news, but those who live there and are free to speak give frightening information. The interior minister has mentioned two terrorist organisations but has omitted reference to Lal Masjid whose family of clerics had General Pervez Musharraf on the run in Islamabad but who had hailed from one of the most madrassa-congested cities in the southern region: Dera Ghazi Khan.

Because of distance from the Punjab Assembly in Lahore, local power-brokers have taken over. The madrassa and its jihadi offshoots are strong, so are the feudal landlords with large holdings. The police work in tandem with them instead of subjecting them to equality under law.

This means that there is no proper surveillance over the clerics who “empower” themselves by going jihadi and linking themselves with TTP and Al Qaeda. A south Punjabi “mastermind” was recently arrested while making his way back from South Waziristan after delivering an instalment of “cannon-fodder” boys to Baitullah Mehsud. When the TTP boss was looking for a safe place where to prepare the plot to destroy Islamabad’s Marriott Hotel, he found it in South Punjab.

One solution of course would be Seraikistan on the model of Balochistan which will take the development budget closer to the people of the south, enabling them to establish a better policing system. But creating a new province will require a constitutional amendment.

Also the creation of more provinces in Punjab will get tied up with more provinces in the rest of Pakistan. And on that there is no consensus. In fact there is violent resistance to the idea. In default, therefore, it is up to Chief Minister Punjab Mr Shehbaz Sharif to have his second secretariat in Multan to ensure even governance and prevent the region from becoming like Swat.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by arun »

Being GUBOed just got more painful or more costly :wink: :

Fresh Increase: Lubricant prices up by 12 percent
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by NRao »

SSridhar wrote:Time for India to cooperate
India needs to move away from a single-track approach of insisting on elimination of India-related terrorist groups as a pre-condition for normal interaction. India-related terrorism should be viewed as part of Pakistan’s overall problem of extremism and terrorism.

India needs to work with Pakistan to cope with terrorism and focus on problem solving in the context of India-Pakistan dialogue.
Perhaps India should be glad that the Pakis are agreeing that there are "India-related terrorist groupS". Gents, not one, more than one!!!!!
India-related terrorism should be viewed as part of Pakistan’s overall problem of extremism and terrorism.
Yup. Agreed.

Add the Pakistani Army and IS to "overall problem of extremism and terrorism" too.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by arun »

SSridhar wrote:Will South Punjab be another Swat ? - Edit by Najam Sethi .................. {Snipped}
South Punjab looks to be hotting up nicely.

Transcript of Pakistan’s Interior Minister Rehman Malik’s interview by Farhan Bokhari for the UK’s Financial Times mentioned in the Daily Times article:
Transcript: Interview with Pakistan’s interior minister

Published: June 25 2009 20:00 | Last updated: June 25 2009 20:00

RM: ………………… As far as Baitullah Mehsud’s other activities are concerned, obviously we have taken measures. You have seen how effective measures have been taken in Islamabad. Our advice to every provincial government is to be vigilant. Now for example we also suspected something similar [to Swat] situation may arise in south Punjab. We are sharing the information with the Punjab [the largest of Pakistan’s four provinces].

FT: What kind of similar situation?

RM: You know ‘Lashkar-i-Jhangvi’, ‘Jaish-e-Mohammad’ [two groups of Islamic militants associated with Taliban and Al-Qaeda], all those people basically hail from that area. What we suspect [is] perhaps all those terrorists who fled away from Waziristan or Swat might take refuge in south Punjab. We are working on that. The provincial authorities have been fully informed about this situation.

FT: Are you going to do an operation in south Punjab as well?

RM: The intelligence agencies have been alerted, patrolling has been increased. Basically this is the time that we should be collecting the intelligence because we would not like another Swat to develop in Punjab. It is a pre-emptive move. In a similar pre-emptive move, we have informed the provincial government of Sindh[southern province] ………………….

Financial Times
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by arun »

X Posted.

Not clear which two Muslim sects are exterminating each other. However going by the past record it would appear to be a battle between the Shia Muslim sect adhering Toori tribe against the Sunni Muslim sect adhering Bangash tribe.

For an Islamic Republic that claims to have been set up as a haven for Muslims of the India Sub-Continent, the degree of indulging in the extermination of others simply for belonging to a different sect of Islam, starkly stands out:
Kurram clashes leave 33 dead

By Our Correspondent

PARACHINAR: At least 33 people were killed and 65 others injured in sectarian clashes between warring groups in various parts of the Kurram agency on Friday night and Saturday. ……………………..

The fighting started in the region 12 days ago over a dispute on construction of bunkers in Khar Kali and Balishkhel.

………………. The 12-day long clashes have left about 89 people dead and 175 injured. ………………….

Dawn
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:Time for India to cooperate
India needs to move away from a single-track approach of insisting on elimination of India-related terrorist groups as a pre-condition for normal interaction. India-related terrorism should be viewed as part of Pakistan’s overall problem of extremism and terrorism.

India needs to work with Pakistan to cope with terrorism and focus on problem solving in the context of India-Pakistan dialogue.
This article says:

"What? You are accusing me or raping your wife? Listen buddy. I am raping my own wife, sisters, dughtres and other family members as well. You need to understand that your problems of rape are only a small subset of the fact that I am raping everyone - so you need to move away from the single track approach of talking about just your wife."
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Ex-MNA caught carrying latter from Baitullah to Hamid Gul
The case of ‘missing’ former MNA Maulana Shah Abdul Aziz, who was picked up by an intelligence agency after his meeting with Lal Masjid cleric Maulana Abdul Aziz as it transpired later, took an alarming new turn with the damning revelation that he may have been carrying a letter of Baitullah Mehsud addressing to a former high profile ISI general, known for his strong pro-Taliban views, it was reliably learnt.

When asked about the contents of the letter, sources within the Interior Ministry said the TTP chief in this letter had expressed his deep gratitude for the justifications, the former general had been offering to the media while defending the Taliban and their philosophy. More importantly, sources said the TTP chief was really happy with the retired general for opposing the military operation against the Taliban.

The sources said the letter was however significant only to the extent that it was allegedly written by Baitullah and the fact that it was being carried by Shah Aziz confirmed the nexus between the two, but it did not in any manner whatsoever suggest any link, direct or indirect, between the retired general and Baitullah Mehsud. Also, it was told that in all probability, the general was not even aware of the existence of such a letter. {Aha. . .attempts already are on to exonerate Hamid Gul}

The source said the recovery of Baitullah Mehsud’s letter addressing to a top former spymaster had surprised even those who were deputed to investigate the former MNA known for his close links with the Taliban.

The sources said this secret letter had actually confused the intelligence agency officials, as they were wondering how to produce this letter in the court of law to justify the custody of Shah Abdul Aziz, as they believed that it would open a Pandora box and might bring a bad name to the army itself. {This is the constant dilemma that Pakistan is facing these days} . . .But, the sources said, the intelligence agency had decided not to produce this letter in any court of law for the image of the institution.

This correspondent could not contact the retired general despite efforts. However, the generalís close circle suspected a plot to fix up the general. They believed that such efforts were made in the past but remained futile.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by SSridhar »

Time to re-examine our history
If we read the history of Muslim League, which later became the official version of our history and was propagated by the state, we find rhetoric promoting the doctrine of Islam’s exclusivity as a belief system. First to achieve and then to justify its political objectives, the Muslim League and later the state of Pakistan trumpeted it so much that in this country the adherents of Islam have since suffered from a collective delusion which convinces them of their superiority and has made purity an object of their desire. Their quest for purity has sped them towards the precipice where they now stand teetering on the edge of doom.

The intricate detail of Pakistan’s history is reduced to a story of pure versus impure in our Pakistan Studies textbooks. One can find a repetitive discourse in these textbooks which convinces us of our superiority. ‘Fortunately’ we got a title for our country which tried to literally encapsulate this notion of purity. Hence, anything and everything which was Pakistani became pure — since the word that became widely used to denominate our nationality became pak which, literally, translates into ‘pure.’ Hence, our country became pak along with its people and institutions.

The agreed-upon notion of our ‘purity’ went unchallenged in Pakistan and the official stance always aligned with that of ‘dissenters.’ (Perhaps there was no genuine opposition in the history of Pakistan.) Jamat-i-Islami, for instance, is considered to have opposed the establishment during the period after separation, yet their elders to this day believe in the myth of purity and are most prominent in their hatred of the religious Other. It seems as if when it came to hating a people of another religion everyone had a consensus in this country.

If we look at the textbooks which have been taught in our schools we do not find any attempt from our state to inculcate among its citizens notions of pluralism based on humanity. One can find quite a few instances where academic lessons are simply reduced to hate mongering. Just a short survey which asks from people what they think of when they hear the word Hindu will be enough to support my point. As a teacher I have done it many times. The responses always make use of the following verbiage: baniya, impure, enemy….On the other hand the religious order that we inherited adhered to the notions put forward by the Muslim League.

The political philosophy which advocated a more mutualistic approach during the first half of the 20th century was rejected by the Muslim League and its supporters. An anomaly that our historical narrative shies away from is the fact that a group of enlightened, westernised leaders vociferously advocated and highlighted the vital link between religion and nationality, while religious thinkers and politicians like Ubaidullah Sindhi, Hussain Ahmed Madni and Abul Kalam Azad supported a more secular view of our nationality. On one side we had religious scholars with prefixes such as maulana and maulavi preaching that nationality was not solely determined by religion and on the other ‘enlightened’ and ‘modern’ visionaries insisting that religion is the sole determinant of nationality. Strange, isn’t it?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by shravan »

AJK bomber identified as Taliban from Waziristan
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2009_pg7_3

MUZAFFARABAD: The bomber responsible for the first suicide attack in Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) was a member of the Taliban from Waziristan, an official said on Saturday. The blast on Friday hit an army vehicle in Muzaffarabad, the capital of the AJK, killing two soldiers and wounding three others. “The suicide bomber has been identified as Abid. He belonged to the Taliban in Waziristan,” said Raja Kafeel, a spokesman for the prime minister of the AJK. A Taliban spokesman on Saturday said the bombing was in retaliation for military operations against them. He warned the government to stop the operation and airstrikes in Waziristan or face further retaliation. A top administration official in Muzaffarabad, Chaudhry Imtiaz, said police had arrested 200 people for questioning.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by Yogi_G »

shiv wrote: "What? You are accusing me or raping your wife? Listen buddy. I am raping my own wife, sisters, dughtres and other family members as well. You need to understand that your problems of rape are only a small subset of the fact that I am raping everyone - so you need to move away from the single track approach of talking about just your wife."

Shiv, believe me when I read that line I somehow knew you would respond with an analogy and I was waiting for it ,And you did not disappoint :twisted:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote: "What? You are accusing me or raping your wife? Listen buddy. I am raping my own wife, sisters, daughters and other family members as well. You need to understand that your problems of rape are only a small subset of the fact that I am raping everyone - so you need to move away from the single track approach of talking about just your wife."
The first thing we ought to do is to challenge him to do his work well. Obviously he is not raping his wife, his daughters and his other family members often enough. He should expand his raping activities to his whole tribe. All the buzurg, his abba, his amma, his taya jaan etc should not be discriminated against. And then he should rape them infinitely more often than he throws a buri nazar at my wife.

Secondly, he should get a taste of one of the steel-jawed foothold traps I am going to place all around my house.

Thirdly, I should offer more vi@gra to him, so that he can rape his family members more often, become his dealer and give him vi@gra if he directs his affections only towards his own family members.

Edited by JE Menon - Rajesh, pls be careful with what you write...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Post by ArmenT »

http://www.defencetalk.com/pakistan-mad ... fly-20141/
First Pakistan made JF-17 to fly by end of this year.
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