INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Apr 2013 18:56

^^^source please. It looks like a Russian/Soviet(Admiral Gorshkov as opposed to Vikramaditya) tableau rather than IN.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Apr 2013 19:41

Snehashis wrote:Arihant surfaced! Well on a tablo.
Hull diameter and length looks a bit larger than Akula and also looks like it has a twin shaft.

That is an Oscar class SSGN.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Apr 2013 20:38

negi wrote:Is that accurate ? Where are the diving planes ? As per the official pictures the diving planes should be on the coning tower.

Had same doubt onlee

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 20 Apr 2013 22:47

Got it from a Russian forum.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2013 08:52

Pratyush is right

Oscar II class SSGN

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2013 08:56

Starboard side of the Helo Carrier:
Kilo - Oscar (949A) - Kilo

Port side:
Akula /Shchuka (971) - Kilo (636)

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 04 May 2013 16:38

Arihant to sail in three weeks :NDTV

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 May 2013 16:44

parshuram wrote:Arihant to sail in three weeks :NDTV

If true, then good... Very good..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 May 2013 18:11

New Delhi: In a big step towards securing India's nuclear deterrence capabilities, the reactor on board the indigenously built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant is set to become operational within three weeks. The submarine, which is over 100 metres long, has been undergoing trials in Visakhapatnam for the last three years .

Dr VK Saraswat, the chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation or DRDO, shared these exclusive details with NDTV. He said that once the Indian-made enriched uranium nuclear reactor - which has been in development for two decades - becomes operational, INS Arihant will be ready for sea-trials and will subsequently be commissioned.

The induction of INS Arihant into the Indian Navy's fleet will complete the crucial link in India's nuclear triad - the ability to fire nuclear weapons from land, air and sea. So far, the US, Russia, France, China, and the UK have the capability to launch a submarine-based ballistic missile.

Though this comes as good news for India's defence capabilities, there is some concern over the overall strength of India's submarine fleet. India has 14 conventional submarines that run on either battery or diesel and are aging and outdated. Each of them will have completed the standard life-span of 25 years by 2017.

For NDTV Updates,

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 May 2013 23:32

Given the delays in acquiring conventional SSKs, IMO, the IN should just focus on getting more SSNs instead. Something like this (next 20-25 years):

12 - SSKs (6 Scorpene + 6 follow-on with AIP)
8 - SSN (Arihant sized; can take on role as a mini-SSBN if need arises)
4 - SSBN (larger Arihant carrying at least 12 intercontinental SLBMs)

Total: 24 submarines by 2035/40. By then first-lot of SSKs should be nearing their end-of-life and should be replaced by SSNs.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 May 2013 01:57

Agreed. SSNs should be to the Navy what SU-30 MKIs are the the airforce. A heavy option but a proven one. Lets just go all out on SSNs. Looking at the prices of SSKs, their marginal advantage over SSNs on that count are rapidly disappearing. SSNs will probably take time to commission because of reactor criticality etc. But if we standardize on the Arihant design, we can minimize the manufacturing & induction time.

I would in fact say screw the follow-on AIPs completely and make them all SSNs.

We can make a virtue out of a necessity

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 May 2013 04:07

GD, It has to sail and then has to fire its missiles. It has to fire them one at a time and then ripple fire to see how it accomplishes that.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 05 May 2013 08:15

Blijj edukate this abdul,

1. do harbour trials happen with the engines switched off? Wont the sub just "sink" if its unpowered? Or is it rigged to wires and the only the ability to sink when its filled with water and surface when it releases water tested?
2. Now with the engine running, what are the safety mechanisms in place to ensure it doesnt sink if the engine doesnt perform as planned, will it still be tethered/rigged?
3. At what point in the sub's testing will its maximum dive depth be tested?
4. When will the live fire of a ballistic missile happen usually in a SSBN's testing phase?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 May 2013 09:53

Usually nuke powered subs have three types of drives: battery, diesel gen to power the electric motors and then the nuke powered steam turbines.

The last one gets gradually raised to criticality and measurements are taken all the way. So is time consuming especially for first of class.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 06 May 2013 12:25

Going critical is a good news. Other systems must have been checked by now and are found ok. Any news of the next SSNs of Arihandth class making. Nothing is there in Press. As posted above unless we need lateral deployment there is no advantage of having SSK now. We can go for SSN as many as possible with Arihanth class being standerdised. I am sure this class is sufficient anything the Pakis and lizard has and going to have in foreseable future.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 May 2013 16:41

Prem Kumar wrote:Agreed. SSNs should be to the Navy what SU-30 MKIs are the the airforce. A heavy option but a proven one. Lets just go all out on SSNs. Looking at the prices of SSKs, their marginal advantage over SSNs on that count are rapidly disappearing. SSNs will probably take time to commission because of reactor criticality etc. But if we standardize on the Arihant design, we can minimize the manufacturing & induction time.

I would in fact say screw the follow-on AIPs completely and make them all SSNs.

We can make a virtue out of a necessity

Looking at the obscene prices being quoted for just 6 of the P-75I submarines, I don’t think that there is ANY price advantage that a SSK has over a locally designed and built SSN.

Considering the amount of time that will be wasted on the procurement of the P-75I, and the fact that no submarine will be bought directly off the shelf but will require some modifications of the design to suit the IN’s requirement, I think that it makes sense to begin work on a new SSN derived from the Arihant SSBN.

But it won’t happen. There is just too much money to be made by bureaucrats, politicians and perhaps even navy chaps from the overpriced P-75Is.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 06 May 2013 17:10

Prem Kumar wrote:I would in fact say screw the follow-on AIPs completely and make them all SSNs. We can make a virtue out of a necessity

Kartik wrote:Looking at the obscene prices being quoted for just 6 of the P-75I submarines, I don’t think that there is ANY price advantage that a SSK has over a locally designed and built SSN. There is just too much money to be made by bureaucrats, politicians and perhaps even navy chaps from the overpriced P-75Is.

There is a reason for conventional submarines. The Type 209 were purchased as SSK. As per US Designation, that stands for Sub Surface Killer or Submarine Submarine Killer or Hunter Killer Submarines. These are specialized to kill enemy submarines.

While nuclear attack submarines like Chakra or multi-role submarines like Arihant are suited for open ocean operations, they lose freedom of manoeuver in constricted waters like Straits of Malacca or inshore waters of Mumbai harbour or Karachi harbour. A small nimble submarine is required to protect Mumbai harbour from enemy submarines or to lie outside Karachi harbour for targets. This role requires submarines like Scorpene or Type 209. The same reason why Light Combat Aircraft is required despite Su-30MKI.

US & Russia both had nuclear attack submarines and even the Type 877EKM is an ocean going submarine rather than a littoral one. Hence they never needed to invest in submarine killers.

The high price of conventional submarine is the same reason why Toyota Prius or Mahindra Reva are expensive - for the technology required to make it ultra silent & compact. While conventional submarines lack range, speed & endurance, they're deadly & unbeatable in constricted waters. We need them to kill Pakistani Agostas.

Something carrying a PWR cannot be ultra silent because of all the pumps running to circulate the water. Unless they make an electric motor powered submarine without a shaft, that in my opinion is still some decades away.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 May 2013 17:44

Why not a small nuke boat? Something like 3K tons.

Why not a PWR with natural cooling at low power output (speed) without the requirement of pumps like Ohios?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2013 18:42

We do not have the technology for such concepts.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 May 2013 22:57

tsarkar ji: thanks for sharing the details. I see your point about where SSKs cannot be replaced by SSNs, at least with the current level of technology. The question becomes: how can we make the best use of existing resources/capacity?

I am going to discount the surface warfare threat. We have other platforms to neutralize those threats. Secondly, I am assuming that the SSK requirement is primarily driven by Pakistan and not China or anyone else.

Defensive action (protecting Mumbai): here, a lurking SSK or two would definitely help tighten the net. But we would be much more dependent on assets like P8I and ASW with helos. The chances of a sub detecting a sub would be quite rare IMO - at least rare enough for it to not be the lynchpin of our defensive strategy. The additional investments we need to make for defense are SOSUS type arrays and MRMR aircraft

Offensive or sea-denial actions (near Karachi): here, the SSK would be invaluable. It can just hang in there and scare the Agostas from leaving their harbor. OTOH, we arent fighting yesterday's war where we need to get close enough to the harbor to launch Styx. If we want to pound Karachi or inland, we can do so comfortably from stand-off distances. The SSK role near Karachi would be more along the lines of sea-denial to the enemy and ensuring their Agostas never see action. Which is a goal we can accomplish partially by increasing the P8I and MRMR assets

So, my 2 cents for short & long term would be along the following lines:

Short term
a) Build out many more Arihant-class SSNs. They may not operate close enough to the shore like SSKs but can hang around further away (green water, instead of brown water) in hunter-killer patrols
b) Invest in more P8Is
c) Invest in MRMRs
d) Build a SOSUS array
e) Take delivery of Scorpenes
f) Start building in-house capacity for AIP SSKs. Cross pollinate ideas/people/infrastructure between SSN and SSK teams. AIP experience to be gained either by upgrading the 6 Scorpenes to AIP standard or developing homegrown AIP solution

Long term
a) Build out home grown AIP SSKs
b) If we *must buy*, buy 6 more AIP-enabled Scorpenes rather than a new class. Consolidate lessons learnt
c) Build miniature-Arihant class, like Merlin suggests above. If Arihant can be a cross between an SSBN and an SSN/SSGN, we can come up with an Arihant variant that is a cross between an SSN and an SSK

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 May 2013 00:18

Prem, Dont rule out South China Seas operations.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 07 May 2013 00:27

Tsarkar-
Abduls were taught at BRF from the Kindergarten that -
SSK- Submersible Ship Kerosene
SSN - Submersible Ship Nuclear

How come the K became a Killer from kerosene?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 May 2013 01:07

Ramana: do we envision using SSKs as far away as the South China sea?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2013 06:54

Avg depth of south china sea is claimed as 100m only....thousands of reefs on which prc is squatting on a few. Even staging out of sanya , their ssbn have to cross the philippines or borneo to get into deep water....

Maybe someone with real knowledge can correct me, but looks like a very risky area for subs to play in .... Easy for lrmp and asw pick up noises, shallow depth leaves little room to hide

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 May 2013 07:57

Can Arihant start goodwill visit to Vietnam and Japan on the day Xi arrives in India?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2013 08:18

or ONGC videsh deploy a rig 200.1 km off sanya in international water and start drilling....

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 May 2013 11:01

If I remember correctly China did detonated a nuke when our PM was visiting Bijing. Both China and Pakis (and many others in world) understand only the language of force. Unfortunately we can not get rid of our fixation with "Aman Kin Asha" So to expect ONGC to show some guts now is too much.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 May 2013 11:13

Didnt we backed out of Vietnam project so as not to antagonise China in South China Sea ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 08 May 2013 08:21

Yes we did. We may have not 1 but 10 Arihants, still we will lack the gonads to take panga with the Chinese.10 years down the line the Red Army will make an incursion into our territory make some outrageous demand and you can bet your last rupee in the bank the GOI of the day will agree to accede to those demands.
We will then console ourselves ....... if India had 5 more Arihants or if the Surya was operational........

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 May 2013 08:44

A trifle out of .context here,but no matter how many SSBNs we have the PLAN will be able to match our numbers

The real issue is on the ground,where small tactcial victories can unseat a govt. that talks tough to China.In the other C thread ,I've posted a piece where the author repeats the famous phrase that "amateurs talk of tactics but professionals talk of logistics",and that is exactly what the Chinese have done over decades-building up their logistic lifeline in Tibet,including the railway,while Indian politicians and mil. men slept.Even if we kickstart out babus into putting their thumb impressions on every pending document and file,it will take uys years to match the Chinese efforts.

The only way in which we can cut corners is to increase our heavy and med. helo lify capacity and build "a string off pearls" of helipads and landing strips wherever possible,so that supplies can be airlifted and stored in safe bunkers NMD and protected by SAMs,etc..This does not mean that a 24X7 policy towards the infrastructure does not continue,and The effort has to be holistic throughout the Indo-China border.Added to the military measures must be that of covert and overt diplomacy with china's enemies,rmemebering Mao's old adage that "my enemy's enemies are my friends".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 May 2013 09:54

Philip, While I agree with the overall idea of your post, I think PRC is in a pickle to have provoked this DBO incident. I wonder if they think India will end up spending scarce econommic resources on this? I think they will get a surprise here.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 08 May 2013 10:11

Philip wrote:A trifle out of .context here,but no matter how many SSBNs we have the PLAN will be able to match our numbers

The real issue is on the ground,where small tactcial victories can unseat a govt. that talks tough to China.In the other C thread ,I've posted a piece where the author repeats the famous phrase that "amateurs talk of tactics but professionals talk of logistics",and that is exactly what the Chinese have done over decades-building up their logistic lifeline in Tibet,including the railway,while Indian politicians and mil. men slept.Even if we kickstart out babus into putting their thumb impressions on every pending document and file,it will take uys years to match the Chinese efforts.

The only way in which we can cut corners is to increase our heavy and med. helo lify capacity and build "a string off pearls" of helipads and landing strips wherever possible,so that supplies can be airlifted and stored in safe bunkers NMD and protected by SAMs,etc..This does not mean that a 24X7 policy towards the infrastructure does not continue,and The effort has to be holistic throughout the Indo-China border.Added to the military measures must be that of covert and overt diplomacy with china's enemies,rmemebering Mao's old adage that "my enemy's enemies are my friends".

[OT]
Absolutely agree - the heli support for the entire infrastructure-anemic China/Tibet border should be a national agenda. I'd even wager why can't a plan for a brigade level distn of 2 sqn/bgd (1 weaponised utility version + 1 purely utility) of helos be put in place, at-least until the load/rail infra is sufficiently bought upto mark (so a decade or two, safely) - and as the road/rail infra is incrementally improved, maybe, the helo density can be diffused to the division level by redeploying to other non-china/Tibet specific divisions.

And the brigade-level command be given full ops authority on utilizing them, whichever way they deem fit. And no AAC type oversight/dada-giri pls – the required flying resources from AAC will required to be put under the direct operation command of the brigade-level command.

I know, even a back of the envelop calc, would peg the absolute number of helo requirement to be insanely high - but then there's a price to be paid for decades of indecision, willful neglect, intra-service rivalry on asset ownership etc.

Sigh!! If wishes were horses …

Ofcourse I know I know, India being turd-world country, needs resources for social upliftment etc - but then it does beg a question of betterment of life/society in the shadow of slavery or a slightly less better-off life/societal parameters in independence. But, then again, by now some politico and paid-sociologists would be ready with the famous slogan of "utility value of spending so much guarding a place where nothing grows" etc.
[/OT]

Oh well, needed this rant to calm down - feel much better now.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 May 2013 18:38

Apr, 2013 :: India Expects To Have Sub-Based Nukes By 2015-16

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 12 May 2013 03:11

NRao wrote:Apr, 2013 :: India Expects To Have Sub-Based Nukes By 2015-16

Is is sad to see our journalist being so naive
Shyam Saran says

It is expected that a modest sea-based deterrence will be in place by 2015 or 2016

and the journalist writes

India Expects To Have Sub-Based Nukes By 2015-16

India will have sea based nuke submarine on active patrol with in a year from the successful completion of sea trials beginning which i believe will begin in a couple of months. So if everything goes as planned, India will complete the triad say by mid 2014.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 May 2013 06:10

Problem is that India still hasn't tested a nuke that can be based on a sub.
Unless we are going to do a puny Youuu based low yield bum

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 May 2013 20:36

Well, the size of a warhead fitted to our sub launched strat. missiles is debatable.We won't have any info on that.However,what should be forthcoming pretty soon (at least by earlier info) is the launch of ATV-2.We told when the Arihant was launched that two more subs were being built,hulls ready,etc.I think that the second sub's launch can be expected within the year.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2013 21:33

Gagan wrote:Problem is that India still hasn't tested a nuke that can be based on a sub.
Unless we are going to do a puny Youuu based low yield bum

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_ ... estruction: Check "Sea-based nuclear armed ballistic missiles"
2) The whole system is under development
3) We have been through - plenty of times - on the topic of miniaturization of these nukes. So I am not too sure where the problem exactly is.
4) If you are going to wait for a sub based nuclear test - I doubt that will happen
5) What needs to be tested has been tested (see strat section)

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 May 2013 22:27

>>I think that the second sub's launch can be expected within the year.

Coming from Philip, that's a good bit of news indeed.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 May 2013 04:14

Some info on the NAOB.The usual glitches in acquiring land,alternative jobs,etc., for the displaced,but that work is going ahead "full steam".

Naval base work in full steam

The work on the Naval Alternate Operational Base (NAOB), a futuristic naval base, is progressing at brisk pace near Atchutapuram, about 60 km from here, even as fishermen and other project affected people (PAP) are crying foul over implementation of promises for their rehabilitation and resettlement.

After soil testing, heavy blasting is continuing to construct various structures by deploying heavy earth moving equipment. Boundary wall construction has also started though in some patches land acquisition is not yet completed due to some objections from locals.

“Barring a few promises, many such as construction of residential English medium school, extension of free treatment at naval hospital and construction of community health centre, jobs to all eligible and construction of a fishing jetty/jetties have remained unfulfilled,” Chodipalli Gangaraju, president of NAOB Nirvasitula Samkshema Sangham, told The Hindu on Sunday.

Land acquisition process for NAOB was launched in 2005. After several rounds of agitations, the government agreed to provide a compensation of Rs.1 lakh to all those above 18 years, provide permanent and contract jobs, set up a convent or Central School.

In the first phase, nearly 4,500 acres, both private and government land, was acquired in Rambilli, Rajala Agraharam, Marripalem and Vakapadu. Four villages – Velpugondupulam, Revuvathada, Devallapalem and Pisinigottupalem -- were totally displaced following which houses were shifted to a rehabilitation colony. The demands of the PAP include issue of IRIS-based ID cards, construction of two jetties, employment, formation of labour contract societies, residential school for fishermen’s children, validation of list of families, provision of health centre, social development infrastructure, enumeration of fish vending women, compensation for society lands and house-sites to all.

“We are considering compensation and other benefits as per GO Ms. No. 68. In fact, we are also in touch with the naval authorities to extend more benefits to the affected families,” District Collector V. Seshadri said. On the promise of providing fishing jetty near their habitations, he said due to Mumbai terror attacks, it had been decided not to develop jetties within five nautical miles of projects of strategic importance. “We are trying to locate it at a convenient place,” he disclosed.

It is said that the authorities are in the process of acquiring nearly 3,000 acres at Bangammapalem, Kothapatnam, Yatha Kothapatnam and Vadanarsapuram villages in Rambilli and S. Rayavaram mandals.

“We will not allow acquisition for second phase before fulfilling the promises made thrice in writing during 2010-12 and extending rehabilitation package as per GO Ms. No. 68,” said CPI (M) leader K. Loknadham.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2013 06:36

Looking at size of land acquistion, it smells like entire vizag base will shift there not just nuclear subs. It will be our karwar on the east coast. Size seems bigger than iit kanpur campus which is huge. Purely a sub base under the hills would not require that much land.