MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

The Turks are having headaches with even the *possibility* of inducting the F-35 :lol: :rotfl:

Till now, I thought the kill switch on the F-35 was just a rumour. However, if the video and text below is true, then oh boy! :P

Link below has a video if anyone understands Turkish, but posting the contents of the tweet below. Karo Aur F-35 nautanki! :mrgreen:


https://x.com/TurkishCentury/status/1854875863948366288 ---> F-35 SUCKS MORE THAN YOU THINK!

Former president of Türkiye's defense acquisitions agency SSB on ridiculous F-35 preconditions:

• Paying huge sums for the F-35 isn't the problem, it's the utter dependence on the US that it creates.

• We couldn't fly our jets in 1974* because the US refused to provide their spare tires! Even the tiniest sanctions can have huge impacts.
* Likely referring to their F-4 Phantom fleet.

• F-35 requires regular code updates and a unique password just to *TURN ON*, that is provided to customers by the US *DAILY*. What if they stop giving it to you?

• US completely oversees and remotely controls your entire F-35 supply chain. What you need, when you need it, how many, you don't tell them, they tell you. And you have to pay to get it.

• An F-35 engine overhaul center was going to be set up in Türkiye. But Americans said there would be a restricted section within it that would only employ US staff and be off limits to Turkish staff. What kind of partnership is this?

• No technical access to the hot sections of the engines whatsoever.

• No access to US-provided avionics or source codes.

• Even the old RAM paint that gets scraped off before repainting, the aircraft gets shipped back to the US to keep us from reverse-engineering the chemicals.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by ernest »

Rakesh wrote: 19 Nov 2024 22:06 https://x.com/TurkishCentury/status/1854875863948366288 ---> F-35 SUCKS MORE THAN YOU THINK!

• We couldn't fly our jets in 1974* because the US refused to provide their spare tires! Even the tiniest sanctions can have huge impacts.
* Likely referring to their F-4 Phantom fleet.
TIL that even NATO allies get sanctioned. No wonder IAF has refused to entertain any American fighter.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Russia’s Su-57 ‘Googly’: A Strategic Opportunity Or A Risky Distraction For India?

What fifth-generation fighter jet should India invest in — the Russian Su-57 or the American F-35? This question has taken centre stage following a calculated pitch by Russian state media, spearheaded by Sputnik, touting the Su-57 as a ‘superior option’ for India. But is this merely a tactical move, or does it hold real strategic merit? The timing of Russia's push is quite interesting too. President Vladimir Putin is slated to visit New Delhi in early 2025 for the 23rd annual India-Russia bilateral summit. Against this backdrop, the Sputnik India tweets have reignited debate over India’s potential acquisition of a fifth-generation fighter jet. It presented the Su-57 as an attractive alternative to the F-35 and an essential complement to India’s "Make in India" initiative. But is this a sincere offer or a cleverly crafted gambit?

The pitch also comes when India is grappling with delays in its domestic fighter programs, such as the Tejas Mark 1A and the ambitious AMCA, which remain in the prototype stage. These setbacks create a fertile ground for foreign lobbying, but should India let its long-term vision for indigenous defence manufacturing take a backseat? On this episode of In Our Defence, host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor analyse Russia’s ‘googly’ pitch for the Su-57. How would acquiring this jet impact India’s indigenous AMCA project? Given its current defense strategy, how realistic is the prospect of India considering the Su-57 — or even the F-35?


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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter speculation...for what it is worth...

https://x.com/parthparth2290/status/1874468109207421091 ---> Bhai logo, latest news that Is coming. That newly appointed committee to see IAF reform under Defence Secretary will recommend to buy 36 more Rafales of F4 version for IAF as a stop gap, till MMRCA/MRFA of 114 fighters concludes.

https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1874470188076409211 ---> I’ve said consistently that they should/will order 2-3 more Rafale squadrons and MRFA will never happen. If IAF had any sense this should be the last Imported fighters that India ever has but knowing these clowns they move onto F-35 soon after.

https://x.com/parthparth2290/status/1874471408082055440 ---> Bro, mark my words it will be Su-57 vs F-35 under MRFA/MMRCA.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Khalsa »

I think the world has truly moved on. I am not seeing or reading any great news about F-16s and MiG-29s or the Su-27 family slugging it out in the Ukraine.
It would indeed be a waste to have the MMRCA as the MMRCA for India.

The Rafales need to be purchased under G2G to maintain edge and keep IAF as a relevant and ready force in South Asia and their purchase should bite into the MMRCA numbers. I don;t know... buy another 35 or make it 54.

The remaining numbers as suggested by someone need to go to Su-57 since no one else will sell us any stealth and 5G fighters.
Say 2 Squadrons.
Wrap up the MMRCA Tamasha and allocate the country and the money to the production of Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.
Inject money (long term) into Kaveri else find yourself taken hostage every 20 years by the globe.

I tip my hat to China as definitely kept tinkering away at the mountain.
No longer begging or buying from the ruskies.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

The Race for Fighters: The IAF’s Dilemma
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 049922.ece
02 Jan 2025

China has already fielded two fifth generation fighter jets becoming the only country other than the U.S. to have more than one fifth generation fighter. In comparison, the Indian Air Force is at 31 fighter squadrons, desperately awaiting new inductions and with no fifth generation fighter in the line-up for at least a decade.

In the last two weeks, taking the world by surprise, China unveiled a series of high technology platforms establishing its technological supremacy. These include two stealth fighter jets, the launch of an amphibious naval ship, a new “comprehensive” scientific research ship for global deep-sea exploration, a supersonic civil jet prototype and a new bullet train dubbed the world’s fastest. The timing could not have been starker, highlighting the widening technological gap with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is struggling to maintain its fighter squadron strength as modernization is plagued by delayed deliveries.

Chinese Military Modernization

Last week, videos emerged on social media of two stealth fighter jets in tail-less configuration. One of them a massive jet with delta-wing design, featuring three engines hinting at a likely long range, flying over Chengdu in Sichuan province went viral on social media ‘X’. Videos of the second smaller jet featuring a smaller twin-engine design with swept wings emerged a day later. Reports suggest that the larger jet was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation while the smaller jet is from the rival Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. However, there has been no official comments from China or from their state media so far on the developments. The People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of China has already fielded two fifth generation fighter jets, the medium J-35 and the heavy J-20, becoming the only country other than the U.S. to have more than one fifth gen fighter. With the two new jets, dubbed by many commentators as sixth gen-fighters which is debatable, China has, undoubtedly, taken giant strides in the race.

The recently released report to the U.S. Congress on the military and security developments involving the PRC for 2024 noted that the PLAAF and PLAN (Navy) Aviation together constitute the largest aviation force in the Indo-Pacific region. “The PLAAF is rapidly approaching technology typical of U.S. standards,” it noted. The PLAAF and PLAN Aviation continue to field greater numbers of fourth-generation aircraft (now more than 1,300 of 1,900 total fighters, not including trainers) and probably will become a majority fourth-generation force in the next several years, the report added. In addition, the J-35 and J-20 are being added at a phenomenal rate and flight testing of the latest jets indicate a fairly advanced state, and that they have been under development for sometime.

The IAF’s Modernization Plan

The IAF is at 31 fighter squadrons as against the sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons, desperately awaiting new inductions and with no fifth gen fighter in the line-up for at least a decade, the only outlier among major countries. Recent reports state that Pakistan has approved the procurement of 40 J-35s from China. In an uncanny coincidence, very recently the Defence Ministry has appointed a committee led by the Defence Secretary to look into the overall capability development of the IAF.

India has an ambitious plan lined up for the acquisition of over 500 fighter jets, a bulk of them to be indigenously designed and manufactured, majority of them for the IAF. However, these are at various stages of development and manufacturing and their timely deliveries are critical. Of these, the LCA variants will constitute the bulk. There are 83 LCA-Mk1As on order but their deliveries have been delayed as the F-404 engines by General Electric (GE) have been delayed. A deal for 97 additional Mk1As is under discussion. The LCA-Mk2, fifth generation fighter the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TED-BF) for the Navy all have very ambitious development timelines but given the complexity and track record, it has to be seen how soon they are ready and available for induction.

The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is working on the indigenous development of LCA-Mk2 aircraft and the AMCA, the Defence Ministry informed the Parliamentary standing committee on defence as per a report tabled earlier this month. “The deliveries for LCA-Mk2 and AMCA are expected to commence only into the next decade once the development cycle is successfully completed.”

It must be noted that of the current 31 squadrons, the phase out of two MIG-21 squadrons has been extended due to the delayed deliveries of LCA-Mk1A. The Jaguars, Mirage-2000s and MIG-29s will begin going out by the end of the decade. For instance, by 2027-28, the first of the MIG-29s, inducted in the late 1980s, will start going out and by early 2040s, when most of these types will be phased out, some of the early lot of SU-30s will also start going out. The IAF has in all contracted 272 Su-30s, and a deal to procure 12 additional Su-30MKIs to replace the ones lost in accidents has just been signed while a major Sukhoi upgrade program is in the final stages of approval.

Another critical procurement program that hasn’t progressed for several years is the 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA), a foreign jet intended to be manufactured in India with significant technology transfer. The Request For Information (RFI) for 114 MRFA was issued in April 2019 to global aircraft manufacturers but has since made no progress with even the preliminary Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) from the Government yet to be received. Given the long timelines for the procurement process, and factoring in the time to set up facilities in India and for the jets to roll out, the MRFA is unlikely to be available in significant numbers till the middle of the next decade.

As reported by The Hindu recently, in the backdrop of the controversy in the procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets, the government is looking at a procurement model that is transparent and non-controversial for the MRFA. Underscoring this urgency, IAF Air Chief Marshal A. P. Singh said in October that the MRFA was “needed as of yesterday”. The larger and more capable LCA-MK2 is under development and is supposed to do its first flight this October, with December 2027 to be the end of research and development for LCA-Mk2. “If these timelines are met and the MRFA is signed parallelly we are OK. We are not badly off. But if these timelines are pushed, then we need to look at alternatives,” the Air Chief had stated.

In October 2022, then IAF Chief ACM V.R. Chaudhari conceded that even with the LCA-Mk1A, LCA-Mk2 and the MRFA, “We will still be at 35-36 (squadrons) by middle of next decade.” It is pertinent to note that, barring the AMCA which will take sometime the LCA variants and the MRFA are all four gen plus fighters. On the delay in the LCA-MK1A, a representative of the Ministry informed the House Panel that it “Worries all of us. LCA Mark 1 is dependent on GE-404 engines. The supply of GE-404 engines has been adjusted by GE for the last two years. Due to COVID, their supply chain has broken down. They have not been able to resume yet. They have promised that they will start giving GE engines from March this year, next year onwards, the supply would get stabilized,” the representative submitted. As soon as the engine problem is sorted out, we have planned to make 24 LCAs every year and then 30 every year, the representative stated. On the agreement between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and GE for the license manufacture of the F-414 engines in India the Ministry representative expressed confidence that it should get it signed in the “next three to four months.”

Aero Engine Troubles

An aero-engine is likely to remain the single major dependency and the country’s Achilles heel for a very long time. Imported engines, directly or ‘co-manufactured’ will power all indigenous jets and helicopters till the end of this century at the current rate. The license manufacturing for the F-414 engine or the new 110KN engine likely to be co-developed and co-produced with France for the AMCA-Mk2 will still mean that India would be dependent on them for the most critical parts. It will essentially be between France and the U.S. — U.S. for a part of the fighter fleet and France for the reminder of the fighter fleet and for almost all of the helicopter segment as more indigenous platforms come in. The country can’t claim to be fully self-reliant till it can field an aero-engine that is completely designed and developed in-house.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

How much longer are these Air Marshals going to peddle this MRFA bokwas? :lol: The Govt does not want to sanction the funds. What part of this, are these retired/serving Air Marshals not getting? See the latest defence outlay that is set aside for modernization. How many more articles (old wine in new bottle) are they going to write? By now, this wine has turned into vinegar.

TRANSFORMING INDIA’S SKIES: THE MRFA ACQUISITION FOR A FUTURE-READY IAF
https://55nda.com/blogs/anil-khosla/202 ... ready-iaf/
02 Feb 2025

by Air Marshal Anil Khosla (retd)

VIDEO: https://x.com/IndiaToday/status/1885302976148832546 ---> I think Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) should include procurement of 5th generation aircraft": Air Marshal Anil Khosla (retd)
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 04 Feb 2025 02:46 How much longer are these Air Marshals going to peddle this MRFA bokwas? :lol: The Govt does not want to sanction the funds. What part of this, are these retired/serving Air Marshals not getting? See the latest defence outlay that is set aside for modernization. How many more articles (old wine in new bottle) are they going to write? By now, this wine has turned into vinegar.
https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1885588654430838853 ---> Less than 5% increase in defence capital budget (for new acquisitions) compared to last year's budget.

Image
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1889210563345138101 ---> Yep. It's going to be Rafale vs Su-57.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by RCase »

Not sure if this is the right thread...

A walk down memory lane of HAL origins and aircraft development. Adi Achinit in conversation with Gp Capt RK Narang. Rather long, but worthwhile.

Much of the history of aviation technology development has not been consolidated. Also, he traces the patterns of development and abandonment of project due to lack of orders. Unobtainium goals fixation. Need to evolve into Block model of design freeze and production.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVnzubW0dRo
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Trump just upped the ante in the MRCA contest and has offered the F-35 to India.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1890179916387463573 ---> Washington, DC: US President Donald Trump says, "Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F35, Stealth fighters..."
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1890196418704601151 ---> Trump: "Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F-35 stealth fighters.."'

- He wants sales, not Make in India, Stryker deal isn't vital.
- Path to F-35 is not direct.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:

https://x.com/GordonGChang/status/1890192220151771592 ---> Trump just said he will sell F-35s to India. He might as well just send one directly to Moscow, because that’s where the plane will end up as soon as the Indian military takes delivery. And a year after that China will have the plane too.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Bharadwaj »

OH NO.... Fat Amy on the way.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by RCase »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 06:41 :lol:

https://x.com/GordonGChang/status/1890192220151771592 ---> Trump just said he will sell F-35s to India. He might as well just send one directly to Moscow, because that’s where the plane will end up as soon as the Indian military takes delivery. And a year after that China will have the plane too.
Saar - China doesn't need the plane. They probably have already stolen all the designs. With China building 6th Gen plane, why should they bother with a 5th gen plane? :D
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Bharadwaj »

Anyways as people have been pointing out on social media, Trump is term limited and by the time this circles through all the committees and congress we may be looking at a Democrat in the White House again. I think GOI might be quietly counting on that. If the 35 comes it might be at the cost of the AMCA which is perhaps the most important defence project for our country.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by RCase »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbQn1mlkaDw
Dealing with the woes of HAL in light of the Air Chief's criticism, this YT video has AM Matheeswaran and Gp Cpt. Vinod speaking about the problems. Most of the points they make resonate with me.

AM Matheeswaran has correctly pointed out some of the flaws of HAL that need fixing:
- Building up the supply chain
- Corporatization/ privatization of HAL Hire/ Fire based on performance
- Skills training
- Insane policy of having divisions of HAL in various locations for political reasons. He specifically mentions Koraput! (This was one of the most boneheaded decisions of Neverwho. Out in the jungles, with no proper connectivity and lack of skilled manpower. Even todate, it doesn't have air connectivity. Imagine the lead time for supplies to reach this place).
- Diversification of engine suppliers for the Tejas program.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Mort Walker »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 06:16 Trump just upped the ante in the MRCA contest and has offered the F-35 to India.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1890179916387463573 ---> Washington, DC: US President Donald Trump says, "Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F35, Stealth fighters..."
This aligns with the IAF chief poo-pooing HAL. Might as well place an order for 400 F-35 and call it a day.

Rakeshji, we've been here on variations of this thread since 1997 talking about the MRCA and I no longer want to see this thread in 2052 (if I live that long).
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by drnayar »

"paving the way" = F16/F15 mod
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

Mort Walker wrote: 14 Feb 2025 11:05 ...
Might as well place an order for 400 F-35 and call it a day.
...
Can't happen sir.

And we can thank all the laadli behans, laadla bhais, pyaare mamas for that!

Never imagined those exchequer draining bribes schemes would have a silver lining but then here we are...
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by maitya »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 06:34 https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1890196418704601151 ---> Trump: "Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F-35 stealth fighters.."'

- He wants sales, not Make in India, Stryker deal isn't vital.
- Path to F-35 is not direct.
Now now, this "ultimately" as in ...
First buy F21/F15/F18 whatever, and then "providing F35" can be considered, is it?

But how is Shri Putin be accommodated now? 50%-50% distribution of 114 between F35 and Su-57, is it?
Which means direct import onlee, and no lic mfg (ToAsT) tamasha!!

In which case we need to start a new thread called MRSFA (Multirole Stealth Fighter Aircraft) contest ... :rotfl:

Interesting times ... :mrgreen:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

maitya wrote: 14 Feb 2025 15:55 ..
Now now, this "ultimately" as in ...
First buy F21/F15/F18 whatever, and then "providing F35" can be considered, is it?
...
First buy the F21/F15/F18, then get rid of the S400 (or put it under our supervision), then providing the F35 might be considered
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by drnayar »

Manish_P wrote: 14 Feb 2025 18:53
maitya wrote: 14 Feb 2025 15:55 ..
Now now, this "ultimately" as in ...
First buy F21/F15/F18 whatever, and then "providing F35" can be considered, is it?
...
First buy the F21/F15/F18, then get rid of the S400 (or put it under our supervision), then providing the F35 might be considered

posting what Admiral has mentioned at the beginning of this very page !:

https://x.com/TurkishCentury/status/1854875863948366288 ---> F-35 SUCKS MORE THAN YOU THINK!

Former president of Türkiye's defense acquisitions agency SSB on ridiculous F-35 preconditions:

• Paying huge sums for the F-35 isn't the problem, it's the utter dependence on the US that it creates.

• We couldn't fly our jets in 1974* because the US refused to provide their spare tires! Even the tiniest sanctions can have huge impacts.
* Likely referring to their F-4 Phantom fleet.

• F-35 requires regular code updates and a unique password just to *TURN ON*, that is provided to customers by the US *DAILY*. What if they stop giving it to you?

• US completely oversees and remotely controls your entire F-35 supply chain. What you need, when you need it, how many, you don't tell them, they tell you. And you have to pay to get it.

• An F-35 engine overhaul center was going to be set up in Türkiye. But Americans said there would be a restricted section within it that would only employ US staff and be off limits to Turkish staff. What kind of partnership is this?

• No technical access to the hot sections of the engines whatsoever.

• No access to US-provided avionics or source codes.

• Even the old RAM paint that gets scraped off before repainting, the aircraft gets shipped back to the US to keep us from reverse-engineering the chemicals.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by drnayar »

I dont think India should go anywhere near the F35 .. there are so many other ways to bridge any trade gap
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Manish_P »

drnayar wrote: 14 Feb 2025 19:08 ..
posting what Admiral has mentioned at the beginning of this very page !:
..
The US want us to buy the F35 for precisely those reasons

1) to control when, where, against whom and how we can use it
2) make sure that we spend so much money on it that we don't have the budget to buy any alternative as a hedge
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Mort Walker wrote: 14 Feb 2025 11:05 This aligns with the IAF chief poo-pooing HAL. Might as well place an order for 400 F-35 and call it a day.

Rakeshji, we've been here on variations of this thread since 1997 talking about the MRCA and I no longer want to see this thread in 2052 (if I live that long).
Sirjee, it will be a long time before any F-35 joins the IAF. The level of legal/technological hurdles that are before it are not easy to overcome.

I believe the goal will be to put the F-35 through the famed Indian bureaucratic process and basically run out the clock i.e. the length of the second Trump administration. Air HQ will also be roped into this endeavor. Trump has offered should not be interpreted as India will automatically buy.

The major sticking point in Trump's offer of the F-35 is the word "ultimately". That means purchase of the F-21 or F-15EX has to precede it. Good luck with that happening. No one can force an aircraft down Air HQ's throat.

In the meantime, to keep Trump happy...expect sales of P-8I, Stryker, C-130s and other American hardware to go through. Trump needs a dollar figure that he can sell (i.e. MAGA) to the American people and India will give it to him. And even these deals will be spaced out over the next four years.

One thing is certain ---> MRFA is dead now, with the formal offer of the F-35. At this stage, acquiring a phoren non-US fourth generation fighter (in triple digits) has gone out the window. This will anger the Trump administration and that is the last headache that the Modi Govt wants.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Mort Walker »

IAF numbers are shit. HAL is a flop, just buy anything anyone can deliver in the next 3-4 years. Even 2nd hand F-18, F-15 or F-16. It really doesn’t matter. Only numbers do now.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Mort Walker wrote: 14 Feb 2025 21:17 IAF numbers are shit. HAL is a flop, just buy anything anyone can deliver in the next 3-4 years. Even 2nd hand F-18, F-15 or F-16. It really doesn’t matter. Only numbers do now.
The issue with second hand US fighters is that it has to fit into the IAF's force structure. This is far easier said than done.

Acquiring second-hand Mirage 2000s is a shoe-in for the IAF, as the aircraft is already in service. Acquiring new build Su-30MKIs is also the same. Even a follow-on small order (2 - 3 squadrons) of Rafales will work. But the latter two will take time. Barring the Mirage 2000, no other aircraft (even Su-30MKI or the Rafale) will come in the time frame that is required. The negotiations (not sure if it is still on-going) for the Qatari and Greek Mirage 2000s will result in new squadron raisings [with aircraft] in under a year. The 12 Su-30MKIs that HAL is building are not expected to arrive for another three years! Rafale will have a similar time frame.

The issue with second hand F-15s, F-16s or F-18s involves acquiring a new set of weaponry (as the Americans will not permit integration of Indian weapons). This will eat into the already meagre CAPEX that the IAF gets each year. Then there is base infrastructure, tools, spares, etc...that all have to be invested in. Then there is pilot training, simulators and all the associated costs that come with that.

That last point is very important. Having aircraft is one thing. Having qualified pilots to operate them effectively, is a whole other cup of tea. This involves time and that time is measured in a few years.

And then there is this issue ---> viewtopic.php?p=2639551#p2639551
^^^Putting your fighter fleet in the hands of multiple wishy-washy American administrations is not ideal.

Sign deals for American hardware (like P-8I, C-130, etc) and get the GE F414 contract signed (quid pro quo). Same with a follow-on order for GE F404 turbofans. The Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 are the only viable option at this stage. Not an ideal situation - with US-origin turbofans - but this is the price to pay for not investing in our own turbofan program.

The other thing that needs to be done is to significantly ramp up the Super Sukhoi upgrade. This 84 aircraft upgrade over 7-8 years is downright pathetic. Air HQ needs to stop air gazing at phoren fourth generation fighters (i.e. MRFA contest) and be pragmatic. Same for the GOI, who is solely focused on electioneering. One Nation, One Election cannot come soon enough. The Govt invests all its energies in elections (general and assembly). Minimum Government, Maximum Governance has become a joke.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by SRajesh »

^^^
Rakesh
Dont you think these three things are connected:
1. Chief's public rant about HAL and reliability
2. Modiji's France visit
3. Unkil's F-35 offer
There are subtle nessages being sent atleast from Indian side both Government and Services
But Trumpwa being Trumpwa he is uprfont and blunt
I dont think F-35 will materialise!!
All that will happen is some smoothening of GE-engine supply chain to an extent.
The French love make the noise but loath part with the Tech.
So any serious joint ven ture TF engine is unlikely but a Whirly-bird one for IMRH is doable and will happen
My take on what IAF wants and what they will get
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by bala »

Actually the F-35 offer from US DJT, could be used as bargaining chip with the Frenchies on Rafale Marine version for the Navy. Indian Navy with F-35 C or F-35 B would be great to have on Indian aircraft carrier, though the prices are steep and US legal terms of usage can be a thorn. TEDBF is way to go for the Indian Navy over a longer horizon of time.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

bala wrote: 14 Feb 2025 23:29 Actually the F-35 offer from US DJT, could be used as bargaining chip with the Frenchies on Rafale Marine version for the Navy. Indian Navy with F-35 C or F-35 B would be great to have on Indian aircraft carrier, though the prices are steep and US legal terms of usage can be a thorn. TEDBF is way to go for the Indian Navy over a longer horizon of time.
F-35C will not work on INS Vikrant, as it requires a catapult launch and the vessel only has a ski jump.

F-35B could work, but will come with severe restrictions on usage and access. The French are well aware of that. Contract signature of the Rafale M deal is supposed to happen in the next couple of months. Negotiations are already over.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

SRajesh wrote: 14 Feb 2025 23:07 ^^^
Rakesh
Dont you think these three things are connected:
1. Chief's public rant about HAL and reliability
2. Modiji's France visit
3. Unkil's F-35 offer
There are subtle nessages being sent atleast from Indian side both Government and Services
But Trumpwa being Trumpwa he is uprfont and blunt
I dont think F-35 will materialise!!
All that will happen is some smoothening of GE-engine supply chain to an extent.
The French love make the noise but loath part with the Tech.
So any serious joint venture TF engine is unlikely but a Whirly-bird one for IMRH is doable and will happen
My take on what IAF wants and what they will get
I would not tie in 1 with 2 and 3. They are, IMVHO, separate incidents that happened to have a coincidence.

The IAF wants Rafale, Trump has offered F-35...but the GoI will purchase the Su-57 in MKI format. The Russians have already dangled that carrot at Aero India 2025. This is a repeat of the 1980s Mirage 2000/MiG-29 saga.

The F-35 has so many challenges in Indian service, that it will be hard pressed for the GOI or Air HQ to accept it.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by srai »

To address another “emergency” moment for the IAF, some form of G-2-G 5th-Gen import will take place.

To appease the Americans, 36 F-35…
To appease the Russians, 36 Su-57 …

Emergency solved, appeasement honored, import “pasand”legacy intact, type “zoo” diversity included :twisted:
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

The mere mention of offering the F-35 has gotten India's defence reporters in a frenzy.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1890272162529046610 ---> The debate on whether F-35 is a good idea for India is separate (For The Record, we don’t think it is). Debate today is substance of Trump’s ‘offer’. Many here so caught up in silly process details & emotional ‘aargh we shouldn’t’, they can’t objectively analyze what’s just been said.

Dangled For 20 Years, F-35 Officially ‘Offered’ To India
https://www.livefistdefence.com/dangled ... -to-india/
14 Feb 2025
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 15 Feb 2025 01:22The F-35 has so many challenges in Indian service, that it will be hard pressed for the GOI or Air HQ to accept it.
https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1890398943101788581 ---> My Guess:

• India will do tareek pe tareek on the F-35. There are issues at multiple levels. The first, RFP for a fifth gen fighter is expected only in 2027-28.

The F-35 is not a standalone system but part of a large networked ecosystem of systems. It can be exploited more only in a network centric environment. How will the F-35 talk to our IACCS? How will its radars pass on target data to other aircraft? Standalone it will not be near closer to its potential.

• Getting into that ecosystem or communications data weapons and Performance Based Logistics means requiring to embed within the US defence framework signing on to certain binding agreements. We won’t. Especially with so much to be reaped out of our Russian relationship.

• We dodged the MQ-9 and the NASAMS deal during Trump era as much as possible until Chinese knocked on our doors forcing us to look at options.

Last but not the least, who said anything about a stealth fighter being the only solution the fielded against another stealth fighter especially in a radar rich environment along our continental borders?
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

Wait till Air HQ and GOI start *EVALUATING* the challenges of operating the F-35 :P

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1890267313695519103 ---> Foreign Secretary Vikram Misri says that there's no "formal process" started for acquiring F-35s.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/zone5aviation/status/1890351484430127517 ---> A review of policy is not an offer. Yet.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1890282535516795355 ---> F-35 for MRFA will not happen cause of Make in India clauses. Any F-35 deal will be separate from MRFA and may bury MRFA. No room for Aatmanirbharta with F-35. Now, whether LCA AF and AMCA programs will be better off with a MRFA / Rafale / Su-57 / F-35 procurement is worth thinking.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1890316669555278137 ---> MRFA / more Rafale / Su-57 / F-35. Any "stopgap" imports need to be G2G and yet will take time. All these have remained in words for years. And yet target of criticism for IAF's future woes will be LCA AF Mk2 and AMCA (both weren't even sanctioned until recently) than our slow process.

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