Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Mar 2010 08:41

Prem wrote:
Paki History lesson.
Bhopal, Kerala and the splitting of the moon
By Al Qaida Khan ( Gapori)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheraman_Juma_Masjid

So much for Muhammad bin Qasim and the Two Nation Theory!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Mar 2010 08:42

negi wrote:Unkil to deliver 1000 LGB kits to TSP as per TOI ostensibly for GOAT .

and some number of F-16s.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2010 08:51

Interesting insight into the penis and testicles relationship of Pak Army and LeT from Kgoan. I found in notable that Hafiz Saeed is being allowed to rant loudly and is simultaneously toeing the Paki government line about water issues even as he calls for jihad.

I mean why should the LeT do this? The Paki army can do it themselves - i.e call for war. I think the Paki army is under pressure to cock up and they don't like it and are allowing LeT to do the talking. The advantage for them is that they can claim that they have no control on "non state actors" (who are mouthing the state line though !!

)).

On the other hand there appears to me to be an element of frustration in Paki circles. I do believe that they are being choked. Getting jihadis to openly take the government line reduces deniability, and if both jihadis and Paki govt say the same thing, it would be a technically sound move to hit the Paki government for jihadi action and vice versa.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 03 Mar 2010 08:54

abhishek_sharma wrote:Did the U.S. bring India to the table?

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... _the_table
...
"All of this was really motivated by their own interests ... It appears that it was almost an accidental coming together of the objectives of the U.S. and Pakistan," said Nawaz, who also was in the Friday lunch with Biden and wouldn't comment on their conversation. "I frankly don't think there was any deal done; I don't think there was any strategic shift."

...

Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman John Kerry, D-MA, agreed that while the administration has been active on encouraging the Pakistanis to move against the Afghan Taliban, there was no quid pro quo.

...

He also said the United States wasn't directly involved in pushing for or setting up the India-Pakistan summit.

...

Hmm, so the Khans are working overtime to dispel the notion that they had anything to do with the resumption of talks between the MMS regime and the Pakis. They want us to know that we resumed dialogue "in our own interests", there was "no quid pro quo", and the United States "wasn't directly involved".

Whole lot of public denial of their role going on here.

Maybe because

negi wrote:Unkil to deliver 1000 LGB kits to TSP as per TOI ostensibly for GOAT .

(And some eighteen F-16s as well.)

Now how would that look if the Khans openly admitted to leaning on MMS to re-open dialogue with the Pakis?

No no... we resumed dialogue because it was in "our own interests" onlee. And the Americans are supplying Pakistan with these armaments "in their own interests" onlee. And Pakistan will assign these same armaments to be used against India "in its own interests" onlee.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2010 08:55

negi wrote:Unkil to deliver 1000 LGB kits to TSP as per TOI ostensibly for GOAT .

At some time down the line the US will need to be made to pay for helping Pakistanis kill Indians because it is in US interests. It may be in my interest to rape my neighbor, but that does not mean that I should be let off. As recently as in the last one week I heard yet another forum member explain to me that the "US does things in its own interest".

Yes sir it does. But it is only India's current impotence that prevents the US from receiving a well deserved kick in its testimonials.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Mar 2010 09:03

Besides all that is written and said about the LeT, we have to recognize the widespread support from the masses for the LeT. As late as March 2009, when the facts of the Mumbai 26/11 had been firmly established, a survey indicated that only 7% of the Pakistanis believed that it was an LeT operation while 78% even flatly denied that LeT had done that. The amount of money that LeT collects from the contribution of hides and money after Ramzan is still phenomenal, to say the least. Hafeez Saeed moves around with a posse of armed men carrying sophisticated weapons and communication equipment in a country where public display of guns is banned. He conducts massive meetings in all corners of Lahore with the armed gangs all over the place. Nobody moves as much as a little finger. The courts, including the Supreme Court, release him always for lack of evidence. The Punjab and the Federal governments do not want to go in appeal or if they do it, they do so reluctantly and publicly express their lack of proof even before the trials start.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2010 09:21

SSridhar wrote:Besides all that is written and said about the LeT, we have to recognize the widespread support from the masses for the LeT. As late as March 2009, when the facts of the Mumbai 26/11 had been firmly established, a survey indicated that only 7% of the Pakistanis believed that it was an LeT operation while 78% even flatly denied that LeT had done that. The amount of money that LeT collects from the contribution of hides and money after Ramzan is still phenomenal, to say the least. Hafeez Saeed moves around with a posse of armed men carrying sophisticated weapons and communication equipment in a country where public display of guns is banned. He conducts massive meetings in all corners of Lahore with the armed gangs all over the place. Nobody moves as much as a little finger. The courts, including the Supreme Court, release him always for lack of evidence. The Punjab and the Federal governments do not want to go in appeal or if they do it, they do so reluctantly and publicly express their lack of proof even before the trials start.

I believe some hair-splitting is in order. Technically the biggest contributions of money will come from those who are the wealthiest and the poorest will contribute bodies.

If we do some quick math - Pakistan has a 100 million poor. By reducing that to 90 million the number of jihadi recruits will hardly change, but there will be 10 million more people with money to contribute. It is therefore necessary to ensure that Pakistan economy does not get better and that its population and poverty figures get higher. And of course its birth rate must remain high. No need for birth control.

If education in Pakistan is skewed and biased - so be it - more power to the Islamists to teach hatred and not useful skills. The real meaning of "Pakistan stewing in its own juice" can only come from not demanding that Pakistan makes any changes in its education system, bigotry or laws, but to cheer them on and egg them on towards more hatred.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2010 09:25

Folks can we start a p0rn website that can be accessed only if your IP has a Pakistan origin?
How about collecting up p0rn on your hard diks to be emailed on request to anyone who can prove he is from Pakistan?

Just a thought to improve the life of Abdul Pakistani.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 03 Mar 2010 09:33

i have a co-worker who is from pak and he says that let is a very common social organization among the masses and many of his cousins are part of it. the armed people are not the common masses and the membership is substantial. they have great presence and consciousness in the minds of common masses.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 03 Mar 2010 09:37

Dr Shiv,
IMHO, 15-20% of Pakjab is actual contributor to Jeehard . Eliminate these numbers and eliminate Jihad for long time. India need huge amount of Pinakas and Smerch on Western border which can shower at least few hundred thousand long range glowing Invitational cards overnight for free personal verification pleasant services offered in Mustang Ranch Up in Clouds7. One million Rockets on Pakjab followed by the rest of Jihad pacifying force using Gandhian methods can kill BR rational for this thread to exist , within 72 hours.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 03 Mar 2010 10:06

Interview with PM.

http://pmindia.nic.in/lprel.asp?id=1077

Q -2. Today in Shura Council address also you had repeated your offer of walking that extra mile with Pakistan, this carries a lot of symbolism since you say that in a land which is seen as cradle of Islam, what are your hopes, as you just said improving relations with neighbours are very important?

Answer: Well I hope that the world community gets the right message that India is a victim of terrorism, that we have a situation where our neighbour has promised unambiguously not to allow its territory for perpetrating terrorist attacks directed against India and yet, on the ground, progress has been rather nil. We are living today in an increasing interdependent world and whosoever I meet, the world leaders, I convey to them, that all problems between India and Pakistan can be resolved through meaningful bilateral dialogue, if only Pakistan would take a more reasonable attitude in dealing with those terrorist elements who target our country

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Mar 2010 10:26

Reason why porkis are retarded from childhood

Laboratory tests carried out on a number of imported toys randomly collected from city markets have shown that they contain high levels of toxic metals and chemicals.

Chinese, I bet!

Some relevant studies have shown that childhood exposure to even low levels of lead shift the intelligence quotient distribution of an entire population towards the lower end of the scale, leading to a decrease in the overall intellectual level and productivity of that population.

there are no Pakistan Standards and Quality Control Authority guidelines specifically on toys to ensure children’s safety

But, this is what hurts the puki H&D:

In this context, he gave the example of India, where the government has recently committed to testing all toys, whether manufactured in India or abroad, for toxicity.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Mar 2010 10:33

Abdul sees red and demands ban on tomato import from India
I kid you not. See image below:

their hopes were squashed when the federal government permitted import of this commodity from India.

He appealed to the prime minister to ban import of the vegetable from India in the larger interest of Pakistan and farming community.

Someone should inform Abdul the Wise that the tomato is a fruit and not a vegetable.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Mar 2010 10:36

^^^
Who was the gentleman who came up with the idea that mentally Pakistan was still a "state" of India.

My muglai salam to that gent for this keen observation.

Everything that Pakistan does wrt India seems to stem out of this freudian behaviour pattern that can only happen if deep down they consider themselves to be a part of India.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 03 Mar 2010 11:40

“When the camp was resupplied, all the materiel was dropped off by Pakistani army helicopters. And there were regular inspections by the Pakistani Army and the CIA.” The US agency carried out spot checks to ensure that Pakistan was sticking to an agreement not to train any foreigners at the militant organisation, the judge said.

SS - do you have a link for that...would be very useful...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Mar 2010 11:56

Lashkar behind Kabul attack: Afghan official

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 635776.cms

Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, responsible for the Mumbai terror attack, was on Tuesday blamed by an Afghan intelligence official for last week's car bomb and suicide attacks that killed 16 people, including 9 Indians, in the heart of the capital.

Saeed Ansari, a spokesman for Afghanistan's intelligence service, said that his agency has evidence that Pakistanis, specifically Lashkar-e-Taiba, were involved in the attacks.

"We are very close to the exact proof and evidence that the attack on the Indian guest house ... is not the work of the Afghan Taliban but this attack was carried out by Lashkar-e-Taiba network, who are dependent on the Pakistan military," Ansari said in an interview.

He also said one of the attackers was heard speaking Urdu.

Ansari, however, said the Taliban did not have the logistical capability for the assault, saying the gunmen appeared to have detailed knowledge, including names, of Indian guests at the hotels.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Mar 2010 12:00

The second deception

K Sub in the IE.

Pakistan has ensured that Baradar and other leaders will not be handed over to the Americans by arranging for the invocation of a court order. There is a high probability that the Pakistan army is trying out on the Americans the very successful deception plan they carried out in 2001.They joined President Bush’s war on terror not to cooperate in the destruction of Al Qaeda and the Taliban but to save them. Thanks to that, Al Qaeda and the Taliban are today hale and hearty, fighting the American and ISAF forces. After the 9/11 plot was hatched and executed under the direction of a Pakistani, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Pakistan, with the use of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, has been able to pose terrorist threats to the US (so far unsuccessfully) and to the UK (one successful London transport attack and other major unsuccessful plots). That in turn has enabled the Pakistani army to milk US taxpayers for billions of dollars in both civil and military aid. It is likely that the present Pakistani anti-Taliban, anti-militant crackdown is intended to deceive the Americans and save the Taliban, Al Qaeda and LeT, as they did in 2001. In the process, they may hand over a few Taliban, Al Qaeda and LeT people to the Americans and provide intelligence to get a few killed in drone strikes but attempt to save the bulk of these assets to be used to reoccupy Afghanistan after the Americans leave, as they are convinced they will in 2011.

Nothing BR hasn't discussed already.

The US must understand that Pakistan needs to use terrorism not only against India but against the US as well to extort the billions they have been getting. Some argue they can oblige the US by getting the Taliban, Al Qaeda and LeT into a long hibernation — and relying only on the nuclear blackmail they can extort money from the US. But nuclear blackmail needs active terrorists to threaten that those weapons may end up in their hands. Therefore active terrorists are crucial to Pakistan’s strategy to extort money from the West. One cannot rule out the possibility that the US and the West may fall into the Pakistani trap.

And to extort from India as well. And UPA sarkar of late seems to be inclined to pay some jizya for a few more yrs of peace and econ development. Or so it apepars to moi untrained eye.

But how come the US allows TSP to deceive it everytime? How come no chankian-ness has rubbed off on the khanate w.r.t. TSP? Even after the CIA station team got soosai bummed, will CIA and pentagon continue to cuddle munna as much??

Yet another possibility is that the US may be aware of this but goes along to lull their suspicions and to reduce the resistance to coalition forces in Afghanistan.
{OK. Then what??}
Once the surge forces reach the Durand Line, US capabilities within Pakistan are stepped up and drone attacks are intensified on the jehadi groups, they are bound to retaliate on the Pakistani army and cities — and at that stage the Pakistan army will have no alternative but to fight the jehadis in earnest in cooperation with the US.

Uh, ok. Sounds more like a litany of hope only.

Four alternative scenarios are possible. First, the US outsourcing the Taliban neutralisation and buying to Pakistan willingly. This is the one popular with our strategic establishment. Second, the Pakistanis are sincerely cooperating with the US. This is perhaps the least likely scenario. Third, the Pakistanis trying out a second deception on the US successfully, with as adverse consequences as happened in seven years of Bush gullibility. The deception proceeds halfway and the US wakes up to it resulting in confrontation between the US and Pakistan. Last, the US is aware of the deception and has its counter-plans ready. Pakistan has a history of being overconfident and launching misadventures and coming to grief as the history of the 1965, 1971 and 1999 wars against India and their own terrorists turning against them prove.

Hmmm. Ref to tactical brilliance made, as I can see.

The US has not allowed itself the option of losing this war. The Indian intelligence community should consider all these inputs in assessing the situation in the next six to eight months in the Af-Pak area and on that basis derive its assessment of likely Pakistani and US moves. That will help to formulate Indian responses to them.

If only one knew what winning/losing mean in the Afgn context.

archan · Post by **archan** » 03 Mar 2010 12:00

Thread has been cleaned up after quite an effort. Please try this: if you feel you need to reply to something in a thread but that reply will be OT and could lead to a series of OT posts, please post in the relevant thread and provide a link such as "I have responded to your post in showthread...php".
This will keep the threads focused and allow for a better reading/learning experience for everyone. Thanks.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 03 Mar 2010 12:05

Gagan wrote:That phucker Jahil Hamid read my and other posts in the west asia discussisons thread and is vomiting that out line by line.

It is funny to note that his voice keeps getting shriller as the Q&A keeps going on. Just notice the pitch at the end of the video, rewind it from the begining and hear his pitch when he starts to answer the first question. Perhaps he doesn't like difficult questions from hottie news presenters.

This guy is a schizophrenic with maniac-depressive psychosis.

he is just parroting the lines written by the pak army/isi

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Mar 2010 13:02

‘Water' in India-Pakistan talks

http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article125277.ece

As differences can be dealt with within the ambit of the Indus Waters Treaty, there is no case for raising them in a different forum.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 03 Mar 2010 14:12

Pakistan opposition accused of electricity theft

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Mar 2010 14:36

Arindam wrote:
“When the camp was resupplied, all the materiel was dropped off by Pakistani army helicopters. And there were regular inspections by the Pakistani Army and the CIA.” The US agency carried out spot checks to ensure that Pakistan was sticking to an agreement not to train any foreigners at the militant organisation, the judge said.
SS - do you have a link for that...would be very useful...

See this post of mine over at the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread for the reference.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 03 Mar 2010 16:28

A good piece! Recommend reading in full. I will also cross post in Afghanistan thread.
Down the AfPak Rabbit Hole from FP
Some pakistan specific quotes -

Instant Afghanistan experts at the White House and pundits at august Beltway institutions like the Brookings Institution are absurdly calling the detentions a "sea change" in Pakistani behavior.In fact, it is no such thing.

In other words, the Quetta Shura has used the ISI, its loyal and steadfast patron, to take out its trash. Those few mullahs suspected of being amenable to discussions with the infidel enemy and thus ideologically impure have now been removed from the jihad. This is not cooperation against the Taliban by an allied state; it is collusion with the Taliban by an enemy state. Pakistan is in fact following its own perceived strategic interests, which do not coincide with those of the United States. Pakistan has masterfully plied the Western establishment with an LSD-laced "drink me" cocktail of its own, convincing everyone that it is a frail and fragile Humpty-Dumpty that must not be pushed too hard, lest the nuclear egg fall off the wall. This is nonsense. In fact, what is needed against Pakistan's military leaders is a lever more powerful than "strategic depth" to force them into compliance and make them stop sheltering al Qaeda, destabilizing Afghanistan, and killing hundreds of Americans by proxy.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 03 Mar 2010 17:51

Woman grounded after scan refusal

A Muslim woman was stopped from boarding a flight when she refused to go through a full body scanner because of religious reasons.
The passenger was at Manchester Airport for a flight to Islamabad when she was selected at random to pass through the controversial security screen.

She was warned she would not be allowed to board the Pakistan International Airlines flight if she did not comply with the request but she decided to forfeit her ticket.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Mar 2010 18:16

^^ Drugs. The Manchester gangs use old paki ladies for their import export from TSP. Just weird that they were taking something back. They get paid hefty amounts.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 03 Mar 2010 19:33

X posting from the Indus Treaty thread

SSridhar wrote:Water issue can lead to nuclear war: Kasuri
The former minister paid homage to 3,000 military officers who had sacrificed their lives in war on terror. He said it was unjustified that the western countries were putting pressure on Pakistan against generating nuclear electricity despite that Pakistan had not signed the NPT.

Is this figure true or another case of madrassa maths

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2010 19:54

shiv wrote:Interesting insight into the penis and testicles relationship of Pak Army and LeT from Kgoan. I found in notable that Hafiz Saeed is being allowed to rant loudly and is simultaneously toeing the Paki government line about water issues even as he calls for jihad.

I mean why should the LeT do this? The Paki army can do it themselves - i.e call for war. I think the Paki army is under pressure to cock up and they don't like it and are allowing LeT to do the talking. The advantage for them is that they can claim that they have no control on "non state actors" (who are mouthing the state line though !! )).

On the other hand there appears to me to be an element of frustration in Paki circles. I do believe that they are being choked. Getting jihadis to openly take the government line reduces deniability, and if both jihadis and Paki govt say the same thing, it would be a technically sound move to hit the Paki government for jihadi action and vice versa.

Been watching these rabid motormouths for some time now out of sheer curiosity.

The pakis are rabble rousing their own abduls and pointedly informing the Indian aam jantha through our own DDM who faithfully and religiously carry hafiz saeed's interviews on Indian TV.

The issue of water which was the hidden jinnah and paki agenda since partition is now being forcefully brought to the center stage. The "jugular" is now being displayed as though it is a new issue.

Hindustan is as usual the favorite villain. It is certainly the paki army talking through hafiz saeed and a variety of other unemployed morons. Nuclear war!! no less.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Mar 2010 20:27

SSridhar wrote:Water issue can lead to nuclear war: Kasuri
The former minister paid homage to 3,000 military officers who had sacrificed their lives in war on terror. He said it was unjustified that the western countries were putting pressure on Pakistan against generating nuclear electricity despite that Pakistan had not signed the NPT.

The obvious audience is the western media. Hence all soldiers are being called "Officers" including the underequipped, chappal and sandal wearing frontier corps.

The pakistanis claims of lives lost in the err, war against terror is likely to be as accurate as 7 lakh bharatia fauj in kashmir, and 70,000 kashmiris killed, and 6000 indian consulates in afghanistan.

Madarsa maths on steroids err on Hashish.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Mar 2010 20:36

With regard to the LET now being the official spokesmen for the Pak fauj with respect to the terror relationship with India. The pak fauj is now increasingly using the non state actors bogey to openly define its foreign policy.

This must be wonderful news for the LET, who are gaining political space as spokesmen for the pakistani state. Yet another rubicon has been crossed with last months open display of the jihadis in lahore and this water statement.

Now the western media and DDM can say that the jihadis / non state actors had been issuing warnings that they will attack hydroelectric project related targets in J&K, and that the pakistani state is not involved. The pakistani FS can then come to nai dilli and rave and rant in front of the media, display machoism and go back home to a thundering applause.

Somewhere in the midst of all of this, GoI needs to call the pakistani bluff. One can not depend on talks with people who only want to use talks to grandstand back home. Now that the carrot has been brought out by India, it is time India bring out the stick also.

I think that the J&K projects are now under direct threat of attacks.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Mar 2010 21:25

abhishek_sharma wrote:‘Water' in India-Pakistan talks

http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article125277.ece

As differences can be dealt with within the ambit of the Indus Waters Treaty, there is no case for raising them in a different forum.

The other day, I had to keep circling around my neighborhood in my car because on my local NPR classical music station, they just started playing this truly melodious Mozart Sonata K330 in C major, and I just could not turn the radio off until the piece finished playing. Likewise, these erudite arguments by Ramaswamy Iyer are enlightening and I read them in entirety, but just as the Mozart piece won't make a difference to a raging wild bison let loose among a bunch nursery kids, such legalisitic arguments won't quelll the blood thirst of a pre-meditated TSP to turn this water boogey into a "core issue".

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Mar 2010 22:13

Two women barred from flight to Pakistan for refusing full-body scan

Manchester airport confirmed today that the women, who were booked to fly to Islamabad with Pakistan International Airlines, were told they could not get on the plane after they refused to be scanned for medical and religious reasons. The women had been selected at random, said the airport. The Muslim woman decided to forfeit her ticket and left her luggage at the airport. Her companion also left the airport saying she did not go through the scanner on medical grounds because she had an infection

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 Mar 2010 22:25

Pakistan has masterfully plied the Western establishment with an LSD-laced "drink me" cocktail of its own, convincing everyone that it is a frail and fragile Humpty-Dumpty that must not be pushed too hard, lest the nuclear egg fall off the wall. This is nonsense. In fact, what is needed against Pakistan's military leaders is a lever more powerful than "strategic depth" to force them into compliance and make them stop sheltering al Qaeda, destabilizing Afghanistan, and killing hundreds of Americans by proxy.

So Pakistan does its madman dance every two and a half years-the schtick is getting old.

America is the one that deserves the jeers-it deserves to be jerked around by Pakistan.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Mar 2010 01:52

'Scared Pak Hindus fleeing to India'

JAISLAMER: Hindus in Pakistan are scared after the recent atrocities against minorities perpetrated by religious fanatics. Many are now making a beeline for the Indian High Commission for visas to flee the disturbed Islamic state. However, most have to return disappointed as the Indian mission in Islamabad is very strict in issuing visas as relations between the two countries are now at nadir.

...
...
He said, Taliban has unleashed a reign of terror among the Hindus by kidnapping the young women of Hindus. He said, "They tried to kidnap my daughters three four times. However we managed to save our honour. We have left behind everything and came to India."

Another passenger Nenuram Gomad Ram said, "The Taliban had launched a campaign to convert the Hindus into Islam. The Hindus who resist were subject to torture and even killing. That is the reason the visa application for India has increased manifold in recent times." Many Hindu families applying for visa to India to leave that country at least for this hard times.
...
Leader of the Organisation of the Displaced Hindus in Jaisalmer Nathuram Bheel said the Indian government has put stringent conditions like a guarantor for issuing visa to Hindus from Pakistan. He said when Hindus were subjected to religious persecution the visa restrictions by the Indian government is all the more disappointing as the fanatics identify the Hindus with India.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Mar 2010 02:43

Can those who rush to the defense of MMS as a so called Chankyan avatar for his willingness to "walk the extra mile", please explain as to what stops MMS at the very least from issuing a statement condoning the death of his fellow countrymen, and more importantly putting the international community (read US) on noitice that this was an attack on Indians by TSP. It is due lack of a forceful diplomatic response from the highest levels of Indian govt (MMS & Co) that this Holbrooke creep has the audacity to cover up for his TSP clients: Kabul blast: Holbrooke’s comments surprise India. Is MMS a mile closer to TSP after this attack?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Mar 2010 02:58

Why would the Taleban try to convert Hindus into Islam? If they convert, lots of financial and material extraction processes can no longer be applied to the neo-converts! I thought the current wisdom is that Islamists in POWI do not do all this stuff for ideological reasons - it is pure economic deprivation onlee! There are never, ever any ideological motivations behind any atrocity that Islamists carry out on non-Muslims. If they did not do it out of any ideological motivation, no economic profit in sight, then it must have been ISI or POGWI perfidy and tactical pressure? No? Talebs are Pashtuns - they are supposed to be head over heels in love with anything remotely connected to India, no?

Now what do ISI or POGWI gain by pressurizing most unwilling Pashtun Talebs into torturiing/converting Hindus? GOI has already made it clear through these visa restrictions that India does not encourage such "escapes" (At least GOI has been consistent in this from the time of our two Great Leaders - the two sole Liberators of India from colonial rule - when fleeing Bengali Hindus from then East Pakistan were urged to "stay back" and resist, even "offer their lives" to peaceful Islamic gangs)! If the logic was to create political pressure within India, that also does not work - for India has proved time and again that Islamist onslaught on non-Muslims of Indian origin abroad are of no concern to it al all. Especially if its on "Hindus" there will be absolute tolerance. Maybe the media can even find some historical trauma visited on Muslims by the Hindus in those regions - because only in such cases historical trauma as motivation for current behaviour is not BS - in all other cases such justifications belong to the "loony fringe"!

So if the most reluctant Pashtun Talebs have no motrivation, ISI+POGWI have no motivation, USA and PRC or non-state states are responsible? It is they who have pressurized one or both of above to carry out the atrocities? But then, the same logic that applies to POGWI+ISI also applies to them - there will be absolutely no concern at all from Indian side if Hindus abroad are tortured or converted under duress by Islamists!

If no economic justification, no ideological motivation, no external pressures - that leaves only one explanation - that these are "lunatics", completely irrational beings! But then they will belong to the "loony fringe" which I now have the impression is only populated by "right wing Hindus"! Are the Talebs "right wing Hindus" then?

If we continue to pull a shirt cut for a human onto a donkey, think of the being beneath the shirt as a human and model and expect it to behave as a human - all the while the shirt is being ripped off into shreds by flailing hooves - this is where we land up. We will try to defend the donkey as a human, try to hide its fur behind the shirt, until it kicks our heads in.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Mar 2010 03:25

CRamS wrote:Can those who rush to the defense of MMS as a so called Chankyan avatar for his willingness to "walk the extra mile", please explain as to what stops MMS at the very least from issuing a statement condoning the death of his fellow countrymen, and more importantly putting the international community (read US) on noitice that this was an attack on Indians by TSP. It is due lack of a forceful diplomatic response from the highest levels of Indian govt (MMS & Co) that this Holbrooke creep has the audacity to cover up for his TSP clients: Kabul blast: Holbrooke’s comments surprise India. Is MMS a mile closer to TSP after this attack?

Article in The Hindu on Holbrooke's comment

India upset with Holbrooke view on Kabul attack
http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/04/stories ... 900100.htm

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Mar 2010 03:34

abhishek_sharma wrote: Article in The Hindu on Holbrooke's comment

India upset with Holbrooke view on Kabul attack
http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/04/stories ... 900100.htm

India TSP equal equal onlee

“I understand why everyone in Pakistan and everyone in India always focuses on the other. But please, let's not draw a conclusion for which there's no proof.”

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Mar 2010 03:58

TIME TO WALK THE TALK - Pakistan continues to deceive India’s foreign and security establishments - Brijesh D. Jayal

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Historically, on issues relating to foreign policy and national security, statecraft has been missing in our governance. During the first war in Kashmir, our forces saved the Kashmir Valley from the invaders, but were ordered to halt their advance when the invaders were on the run. We ignored the larger security implications when the Chinese annexed Tibet. We termed our commanders alarmist when they raised warnings about the Chinese threat prior to China’s aggression in 1962. We chose to repatriate 93,000 Pakistani prisoners of war without having Pakistan sign a clause — that was drafted — to convert the Line of Control into the international border. We have closed our eyes to massive infiltration from Bangladesh. We patronized the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, which then turned on our soldiers, killing over 1,200 of them. Even our response to the audacious Kargil misadventure was cautious and apologetic.

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In more recent times, the January 2004 joint statement by A.B. Vajpayee and Pervez Musharraf was carefully negotiated in spite of Pakistan’s reservations, and Pakistan committed itself to stop cross-border violence and to ensure that no part of the territory under its control, including Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, shall be used for terrorism. This was in return for a sustained dialogue between the two countries. Inexplicably, in 2005, the joint statement by Manmohan Singh and Musharraf accepted that terrorism will not be allowed to thwart the ‘peace process’, thus giving Pakistan the licence to continue with its policy of terror even while supporting dialogue. In Havana, we even co-opted Pakistan as a fellow- sufferer from terrorism and in Sharm el-Sheikh, we accepted the inclusion of Baluchistan as a joint issue. If all this is part of a strategic plan, the people of India deserve to be told so: otherwise, to them, these are flip-flops.

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Certainly our use of soft power to help development in Afghanistan is a wise move that will pay dividends in the long term. But India’s reluctance to contribute to elements of hard power to prevent the Talibanization of Afghanistan has resulted in India being completely sidelined in the evolving international dialogue on Afghanistan. For the present Pakistan is laughing, although it remains to be seen for how long.

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From the Lahore peace process to Kargil, and from Havana to Mumbai, Pakistan continues to deceive the mighty Indian foreign and security establishments — not to mention its allies in the war on terror. Rather than work to a strategic plan, we are back to knee-jerk reactions shunning institution-driven foreign and security policies. A non- institutionalized approach is more in keeping with dictatorships and not befitting the largest democracy in the world. Worse, it is a recipe for disaster in a highly unstable region where major international interests are directly in contact with regional ones. This leaves the hapless people of India confused. Terrorists strike at will, the government continues with its flip-flops without taking them into confidence, the Parliament is disinterested and political parties use any opportunity to score brownie points.

This writer is by no means a hawk. Yet, for a nation with the fourth largest military in the world to be bullied by a failing state like Pakistan makes one wonder what has happened to the Chanakyas of today. It is time for India to get real and face the incontrovertible fact that unless the Pakistan army changes its anti-India mindset, things will only get worse for Pakistan and India.This is the bottom line. Talk we must. But there must be a strategy and script. Since the US and Pakistan both profess to be engaged in the war on terror, and India is a victim, let there be tripartite talks between the US, India and Pakistan. The sole agenda will be the elimination of terror from the region and internationally, and let each put their money where their mouth is. For once, we will be walking the talk rather than endlessly talking about talks.

The author is a retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Mar 2010 04:45

kgoan wrote:Folks, Re: The LeT:

As you all know, every jihadi group has some sort of relationship to the Pak Army - formal or informal. Of all these groups the LeT (I'll keep calling them LeT) is unique. Unlike every other group, the LeT *is* the pak Army.

The LeT is as much a part of the Pak Army as their various welfare organisations. The LeT is as important a glue in the Pak Army as the Agricultural Department. (For those of you folks who don't understand why that's important, and may seem amusing or unimportant, note that the pak army Agriculture Dept is more important for the average Pak Officer in his daily life, than the Pak nuclear command auhority. See it's the Agriculture Dept that plays a *crucial* role in thngs like plots being given to officers. It is *the* heart of the material reward system within the Pak Army).

The ISI can't act outside it's Pak Army authority - but the LeT can because of it's "across all ranks" and "islamist" nature. A bearded havaldar is equal to a clean shaven colonel in a LeT social gathering. Note, this is not a contradiction. The ISI acts on Pak Army instructions from a top-down hierarchy. The LeT ensures the Pak Army has a bottom up feedback from it's Islam-ist rank and file.

Kgoan-ji

I agree with part of this analysis and disagree with other parts.

When you mean LeT *is* the Pak Army, do you mean to imply LeT is an arm of the Pak army/closely affiliated with it? (bad analogy- but something along the lines of BSF-Indian Army relationship?). I do not think that that is the case.

LeT is the official "ideological" organization (note that I did not use "armed force", I will clarify this later) of the ideological state that Pakistan wants to be. It is an organization that runs mosques, hospitals, does Dawah for Islam and has an armed Lashkar. Kind of the crusader's army with paying public as the rearguard, missionaries/schools/charity types as the vanguard and knights/soldiers as the tip of the spear. The deal with that is, that it is perceived to be an "ideal" organization by the Pakis -- charity for the faithful, bullets for the infidels, enticement for the fence sitters: A little bit of something, to appleal to whatever the type of Islamist you might be. You want to do Charity to poor? Donate to JuD. You want to pray in a mosque? Donate to JuD. You are a doctor and want to serve the poor? Join the JuD & go to a camp. You are the proselyting type? Join the JuD. You are the military type who wants to kill some infidels? Join the JuD.

So they are not the Pak army, they are the Pak society.

Just like the Crore commanders exploit the Pak society to enrich themselves, they exploit JuD to attain their objectives. The LeT/JuD offers something for everybody in the Pak Army. For the whiskey swilling Jernails who are far from islamist, a set of cadres motivated to blow themselves up to do their hits on tactical targets like our embassy in Kabul. So I believe that officially/unofficially army types do train the LeT jihadis in the training camps. Army turns a blind eye to it, because it gives them canon fodder for the next attack on Indian interests. BUT it is not a deliberate policy to retain LeT as a official wing of the Army.

A few critical points to note

1. The whiskey swilling types are not ideologically vested into the JuD/LeT. They just want canon fodder for their next hit
2. The whiskey swilling types probably dont control supply/logistics/training of all JuD/LeT hits. Probably only the anti-India and complex ones like Kabul/Mumbai
3. The whiskey swilling types probably dont control supply/logistics/training of all JuD/LeT hits. Probably to maintain plausible deniability when some LeT guy sets a few off in UK. Apart from a vague hatred towards the west, the top layer is still not Islamist. They are only rabidly anti-India.
4. The whiskey swilling types have a dilemma. If they move against JuD/LeT, the mid-low level might revolt, because as I pointed out JuD/LeT is the organization that captures the spirit of Pakistan most accurately.

Top levels of the Pakistan army is still the vestigial remnant of the "professional" armed force that the British created -- a thoroughly depoliticized fighting force answerable to the constitution and their political masters (in the absence of which, they are answerable to their own well being and self interest). Pakistan army is getting eaten up from within, slowly transforming into an Islamic Lashkar, because its recruits are drawn from a country which is slowly transforming into a medieval Islamic ideology-state. But still, the top levels of the Pakistan army are possibly NOT using the LeT as the officers mess. They are letting the status quo continue for benefit 1,2 ignoring liability 3 and afraid of liability 4.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2010 04:53

^ Boss the whiskey swilling type obviously has to rise from the ranks it is then obvious that given the nexus between L.e-T and the TSPA the prospective Jernail has to be a Jihadi patron if not a Jihadi himself .