Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Aug 2012 23:46

I think it's time to close off this thread. it's sufficiently derailed from the topic of discussion.

also, these regional feelings of "rivalry" or "got what they deserve" aren't just confined to Punjab or Sikhs. the elites in different regions of India have become very adept at exploiting even minute "bheda" to cement their own personal power. perhaps the most popular such "movement" right now is happening in Telangana/Andhra.

I bring it up b/c people need some perspective. and hopefully forumers will realize that such differences are unfortunately more widespread than just Punjab/Sikhs.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Aug 2012 00:06

Guys I am surprised at the nature of posts in this thread. There are other threads where these issues can be discussed. The plight of Hindus in 1980's Punjab has for long been ignored.No doubt.

But this thread should be avoided for such a discussion.

Horrible crimes were committed then, but now 6 of our indic brothers have been martyred by a white supremacist/christian fundamentalist in foreign territory and right now we should stand united. Now a Gurudwara has been attacked. Next time it could easily be a Mandir.

I have a question by the way.

Since many people are of the opinion that people confuse Sikhs or even Hindus for Muslims/Arabs and this has/can lead to a tragic situation, can't Dharmic Religious Places like Mandirs or Gurudwaras place big boards openly advertising that they are not related to islam in anyway. Atleast this move can take care of anti islamist attacker subset.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Aug 2012 00:11

devesh wrote:I think it's time to close off this thread. it's sufficiently derailed from the topic of discussion.

also, these regional feelings of "rivalry" or "got what they deserve" aren't just confined to Punjab or Sikhs. the elites in different regions of India have become very adept at exploiting even minute "bheda" to cement their own personal power. perhaps the most popular such "movement" right now is happening in Telangana/Andhra.

I bring it up b/c people need some perspective. and hopefully forumers will realize that such differences are unfortunately more widespread than just Punjab/Sikhs.

Devesh ji, It is indeed shameful what is happening. If this continues, it will become lot more difficult for us to fight the enemies of Dharma, both in India as well as outside.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Aug 2012 00:15

Folks,Even though Winning the argument is way more important than mourning the killing of fellow Dharmics in foreign land, lets spare a moment and few words for the departed souls and their family members.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Aug 2012 00:17

surinder wrote:
SBajwa wrote:This is a perfect time to declare from Akal Takht that Sikhs in USA should discard kirpan and end mass apply to get license to carry a concealed fire arm. Had even one person at Gurdwara carrying a good weapon this might not have happen. Guru Gobind singh told the to carry kirpan in 1699 and now in 2012 we must carry modern automatic weapons to defend ourselves. Sikhs have become just like Hindus of 1699 where today kirpan is as much a symbol as janeu is for Brahmins. No difference between Hindus and Sikhs what so ever at all. Sikhi is/was a reform movement where to protect Dharma(righteousness) kirpan is raised, now it is a impotent as other dharmic symbols.
SBajwa, are you out of your mind?

Surinder ji, What do you suggest?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Aug 2012 00:25

shiv wrote: There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions.

Any evidence or facts to support this?

Well let me answer this honestly and say why I said that. Sikhs in India are just like me - like other Indians. Sikhs in America are also by and large like anyone else, but like all other immigrants in America are under some pressure to "belong" and be American.

But I also know that Sikh separatism has been supported by Pakistan, and some of the words used by certain Sikh spokespersons about Brahmin domination and casteism, are so totally unlike the "normal" Indian American and so similar to the statements that come out from Pakistan that the possible influence of Pakistaniyat in the USA is, in my view very likely.

I know for a fact that the US has been tolerant towards anti-India activities by Pakistanis such as Fai. It would not surprise me in the least buit to discover that Pakistan has agents in America dedicated to creating "Punjabiyat" with Sikhs at the expense of other Indians. this does not constitute proof. It s a suspicion. I also repeat that I think Sikhs have been used by Pakistan with the US and Canada turning a blind eye to their munna.

This is a right obervation and correct. Now what North America does is it creates distance between these new immigrants and their kith and kin in India. This distance has many psychological effects including hatred for their own people and ownership of a new identity.

This makes them have extreme views on manufactured grievences and other communities.

Now this support from US to other people in India includes the Maoists and these naxalites get funding from north america. Pakistan and its groups seem to have close knowledge of all the problems inside India and lot of these are coming from north america. How is that possible.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2012 01:38

Religion of the Nazis

Try to read to understand the roots of Nazi and neo Nazi ideology.

Essentially create Indo-European with out the Indian.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Aug 2012 04:18

Please do not push your agendas on Sikhs. Several of their spokesmen have made it clear that they are more closely related to Muslims. It would be foolish to not proceed accordingly.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 12 Aug 2012 05:58

I think whoever expressed sympathy did so because they're appalled by the tragedy and not because they expected gratitude from someone. If I was a spokesman of the Sikhs, I'd definitely express thanks. But then a genuinely sympathetic person would be insulted. Instead a fellow human would help them should the need arise and Sikhs have never been found wanting in that respect.

Vaise Aapki bahut bahut meherbani.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Aug 2012 06:00

SBajwa did express gratitude when some Hindu group held prayers. It is a few pages back....I think you will find it is worth reading.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Aug 2012 06:05

we need a huge "exchange student" type interaction between Sikhs and Hindus. most of what I see is stereotyping and assuming the worst of each other. the ghost of the 1980's is still lingering like a vengeful preta.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 12 Aug 2012 06:36

SBajwa did express gratitude when some Hindu group held prayers. It is a few pages back....I think you will find it is worth reading.

A whole lot of people did. My facebook newsfeed was full of people expressing gratitude and being overwhelmed with the love shown.

Just because it didn't happen on this forum doesn't mean it never happened.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 12 Aug 2012 06:47

I am not surprised at all that you dont see a necessity of a dialogue.

A quote from my post:
"Perhaps an exchange program is needed, perhaps not, I can't say."

In other words, I don't know. I didn't say I don't see the need. I have an open mind on this subject.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 12 Aug 2012 06:53

he point I made is, that I have never heard them talk about "love" and "peace" in the context of Hindus. Muslims, yes. Islamists, yes.

I see from your posts again and again that words and ceremonies are more important to you than deeds. You have an overwhelming desire for people to say "thanks" or to say words favourable to you.

But look at the deeds. Sikhs live, eat, drink, work, play and marry comfortably with Hindus. Don't these matter to you?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 12 Aug 2012 07:16

BobbyP,

Despite several warnings on this thread by the MODS not bring extraneous issue to this thread, you keep continuing in the same vein.

What part of the MODS warning you didn't understand? I would request you to stop this nonsense. This is not the right thread.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Aug 2012 11:04

BobbyP wrote:........

I am not surprised at all that you dont see a necessity of a dialogue.

therefore you are going to start a dialogue in the middle of a thread about the Gurudwara shootings ?

user warned.

Surinder ji, painting all members of a community with the same brush is essentially no different from the POV you are arguing against. find some other topic please.

___________________________
that's enough about extraneous issues people. don't cheapen yourselves this way.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 12 Aug 2012 11:12

Rahul M wrote: Surinder ji, painting all members of a community with the same brush is essentially no different from the POV you are arguing against. find some other topic please

You have a point. I wasn't trying to paint everyone the same, but was trying pin what the majority did. Majority is, obviously, still not everyone.

By the way, some people have said that they find this thread "puke-worthy". I actually think this thread is fine. I think it is good for us to express what we feel and how we feel. If there are these feelings of animosities, then so be it. Let people express it. This conversations are most interesting and revealing. I don't mind them.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 12 Aug 2012 11:34

shiv wrote:
surinder wrote: "shiv": There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions.

Any evidence or facts to support this?
Well let me answer this honestly and say why I said that. Sikhs in India are just like me - like other Indians. Sikhs in America are also by and large like anyone else, but like all other immigrants in America are under some pressure to "belong" and be American. That is to be expected. We see such opinions even among BRFites who are not Sikhs.

But I also know that Sikh separatism has been supported by Pakistan, and some of the words used by certain Sikh spokespersons about Brahmin domination and casteism, are so totally unlike the "normal" Indian American and so similar to the statements that come out from Pakistan that the possible influence of Pakistaniyat in the USA is, in my view very likely.

I know for a fact that the US has been tolerant towards anti-India activities by Pakistanis such as Fai. It would not surprise me in the least buit to discover that Pakistan has agents in America dedicated to creating "Punjabiyat" with Sikhs at the expense of other Indians. this does not constitute proof. It s a suspicion. I also repeat that I think Sikhs have been used by Pakistan with the US and Canada turning a blind eye to their munna.

This has been my suspicion too, but hard evidence I have not encountered. I thought you might have some.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 12 Aug 2012 12:32

surinder wrote:Regarding thanks to the Hindus. I have always thought that the left hand does not need to thank the right hand for taking care of it.

+100. I too had the same thought.

You don't formally thank your parents for taking care of you when you were a child and parents don't thank their children for taking care of them when they are old. It is their duty and that comes naturally. The culture of formally thanking others for doing their duty is foreign.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 Aug 2012 14:45

I have deleted a lot of posts on this thread one by one... no other way as some reasonable posts were interspersed. Don't bother to ask for explanations, etc. There won't be any. No need to send messages to admins. There will be no response. Enough specific warnings were provided before.

BobbyP will be banned permanently by me right after I post this.

Same policy will apply to any future posts on this thread that divert from the guidance several admins have provided in previous pages.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Aug 2012 19:12

I think we should not abandon the model - that any long-surviving radical group with explicit regime-changing agenda, but which survives without changing the regime - are penetrated and manipulated by agent provocateurs of the state and its seceret services. There are studies on such potentialities based on a long-standing tracking of US state behaviour, legislative action and court awards to drain the funds of orgs - but are not in public domain [KKK, UKA, and derivatives continuing right up to the present].

Here is a look from public domain that stretches things a bit, but BRFites can discard the wilder parts and focus on the core issue and possibility. [This piece works into the criticism of SPLC too, which in its turn need not be free from the model I posed above, as having been started off by a professional lawyer founder genuinely concerned with the rights of individuals under US law, but could have have been found to be useful later by the state in other ways. However my post is not intended to tar and feather any org but look at wider possible motivations from the establishment and other connections.] :

Sikh Shooter a Former Psyop Soldier Linked to FBI’s National Alliance
http://www.infowars.com/sikh-shooter-a- ... -alliance/
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars.com
August 6, 2012

The alleged shooter in the Wisconsin Sikh shooting is a former soldier who worked in military psychological operations, according to the corporate media.CBS News reports that Page enlisted in the Army in April 1992 and was given a less-than-honorable discharge in October 1998. He was last stationed in Fort Bragg, N.C., serving in the psychological operations unit.

Psyops are not confined to the military and usually span a number agencies, including the CIA, DIA, NSC, NSA, and SAIC.

In 2002, the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon defined psychological operations as “integrated employment of the core capabilities of electronic warfare, computer network operations, psychological operations, military deception, and operations security, in concert with specified supporting and related capabilities, to influence, disrupt, corrupt or usurp adversarial human and automated decision making while protecting our own. Also called IO.” (emphasis added) (see Joint Publication 1-02: Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms).

Since the alleged shooter, Wade Michael Page, is now characterized as a white supremacist, the Southern Poverty Law Center is leading the information campaign to portray him as a racist skinhead. In addition to fronting a “hate rock band,” the Southern Poverty Law Center “has found that Page also attempted to purchase goods from the neo-Nazi National Alliance, then America’s most important hate group,” according to SPLC propaganda minister Mark Potok.

The National Alliance, like most white supremacist groups, is controlled by the FBI.

In 2007, its supposed leader, Green Beret David Kellerman, said he worked for the FBI. During a trial on weapons charges, Kellerman “said he went to work for the FBI with orders to infiltrate the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group, in 2000 and relay intelligence. The group’s founder wrote a book that is widely believed to have inspired the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing,” the Miami Herald reported.

Is it possible the SPLC is somehow connected to the latest shooting? In 2005, court papers revealed that the supposed anti-racist organization ran an “informant” (informant and agent provocateur are often interchangeable) at Elohim City prior to the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in 1995.

“The potentially explosive contents of the teletype, among other things, exposed for the first time an informant operation being conducted by nationally known civil rights lawyer Morris Dees through his organization the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC),” J. D. Cash wrote for the McCurtain Daily Gazette in October of 2005.

In some detail the FBI acknowledged the SPLC was engaged in an undercover role where it monitored subjects for the FBI believed to be linked to executed bomber Timothy McVeigh, the white supremacist compound at Elohim City and the mysterious German national Andreas Carl Strassmeir.

Strassmeir was a German intelligence officer and the leader of the Aryan Republican Army at Elohim City, Robert Millar, worked closely with the FBI. “Founder Millar repeatedly shared information with law enforcement officials. During a June 31, 1997 court proceeding, FBI Senior Agent Peter Rickel testified Millar was in regular contact with the agency in the years before the bombing,” writes Jim Redden in his book, Snitch Culture.

As we noted in the case of the 1st SS Kavallerie Brigade Motorcycle Division bust in July, the FBI controls the virtually all white supremacist groups.

It came out during the trail of reputed racist Hal Turner that he was a “National Security Intelligence” asset working for the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force. His code name was “Valhalla” and “he received thousands of dollars from the FBI to report on such groups as the Aryan Nations and the white supremacist National Alliance, and even a member of the Blue Eyed Devils skinhead punk band,” according to The Record.

The FBI has run racist and white supremacist groups since the 1960s. Under COINTELPRO, the FBI “subsidized, armed, directed and protected the Ku Klux Klan and other right-wing groups,” Brian Glick writes. Racist groups were used to create a strategy of tension by attacking groups on the so-called left, including anti-war, Chicano and Puerto Rican activists and nationalists.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Aug 2012 19:45

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:{quote="surinder"} "shiv": There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions.

Any evidence or facts to support this?{/quote}

Well let me answer this honestly and say why I said that. Sikhs in India are just like me - like other Indians. Sikhs in America are also by and large like anyone else, but like all other immigrants in America are under some pressure to "belong" and be American. That is to be expected. We see such opinions even among BRFites who are not Sikhs.

But I also know that Sikh separatism has been supported by Pakistan, and some of the words used by certain Sikh spokespersons about Brahmin domination and casteism, are so totally unlike the "normal" Indian American and so similar to the statements that come out from Pakistan that the possible influence of Pakistaniyat in the USA is, in my view very likely.

I know for a fact that the US has been tolerant towards anti-India activities by Pakistanis such as Fai. It would not surprise me in the least buit to discover that Pakistan has agents in America dedicated to creating "Punjabiyat" with Sikhs at the expense of other Indians. this does not constitute proof. It s a suspicion. I also repeat that I think Sikhs have been used by Pakistan with the US and Canada turning a blind eye to their munna.

This has been my suspicion too, but hard evidence I have not encountered. I thought you might have some.

Very strong and similar suspicions about the paki hand in Canada too.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Aug 2012 20:05

I have got reports of high level attempts at getting the Jewish and Sikh communities "together" in NY last year. Subsequent searching turned up attempst at drawing religious and ritualistic parallel. Surprisingly, sikhs were compared in appearance/dressing style to a particular Jewish sect. Beards, head-coverings and flowing dreesses of women are seen by some in the west as also connected to Judaic sects, and with Pakistanis. Based in the net - there also seems to be a conscious attempt by many quarters to represent proximity between the Sikhs and Muslims as well as Jews.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 12 Aug 2012 20:31

brihaspati wrote:I have got reports of high level attempts at getting the Jewish and Sikh communities "together" in NY last year. Subsequent searching turned up attempst at drawing religious and ritualistic parallel. Surprisingly, sikhs were compared in appearance/dressing style to a particular Jewish sect. Beards, head-coverings and flowing dreesses of women are seen by some in the west as also connected to Judaic sects, and with Pakistanis. Based in the net - there also seems to be a conscious attempt by many quarters to represent proximity between the Sikhs and Muslims as well as Jews.

This can be looked at from two very different perspectives - one is to build solidarity among minorities among a majority (on a per capita basis, the minority group in the USA that suffers the most recorded hate crimes - not all hate crimes are recorded - are the Jews). The second is from Rajiv Malhotra's difference anxiety. Perhaps both factors are in play.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Aug 2012 20:51

If the Sikh Temple Had Been a Mosque
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/11/us/if ... igion.html

John Gress/Reuters
Sikhs attended a vigil in Oak Creek, Wis., on Aug. 7, 2012 after the killing of six worshipers at a nearby temple.

During the 2008 presidential campaign, rumors proliferated that Barack Obama was a Muslim who had been indoctrinated into militant Islam during childhood studies in a madrassa. The fact that the Democratic candidate had been a prominent and visible member of a Protestant church in Chicago for years somehow mattered not at all. The Obama campaign even created a Web site wholly devoted to answering conspiracy theories and smears.

“Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?” Colin L. Powell wondered aloud in 2008.

A mosque in Joplin, Mo., was burned down a day after the shootings in Wisconsin, the second fire there in recent weeks.
Ultimately, though, it took a Republican in the form of Colin L. Powell to speak truth to fantasy. “He is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian,” the retired general and former cabinet secretary said on “Meet the Press.” “But the really right answer is, What if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that’s not America.”

Mr. Powell’s words echo now in the aftermath of last weekend’s massacre of six worshipers at a Sikh temple near Milwaukee. The narrative that has emerged in both media coverage and public discourse since then has been one of religious mistaken identity. It presumes that the killer, identified as a white supremacist named Wade M. Page, may have shot the Sikhs because he ignorantly believed they were Muslim.

Such a story line is accurate as far as it goes. Hundreds of times since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, Sikhs have been the victims of bias crimes. The perpetrators have invariably assumed that because Sikh men wear turbans and have beards they are Muslims, even specifically Taliban. How terrible it is that it has taken the slayings in Wisconsin to serve as a national teachable moment about the theology and practices of the Sikh religion.

Yet the mistaken-identity narrative carries with it an unspoken, even unexamined premise. It implies that somehow the public would have — even should have — reacted differently had Mr. Page turned his gun on Muslims attending a mosque. It suggests that such a crime would be more explicable, more easily rationalized, less worthy of moral outrage.

“Islamophobia has become so mainstream in this country that Americans have been trained to expect violence against Muslims — not excuse it, but expect it,” said Reza Aslan, an Iranian-American writer and scholar on religion. “And that’s happened because you have an Islamophobia industry in this country devoted to making Americans think there’s an enemy within.”

As a Sikh, Vishavjit Singh has found himself wrestling with the subject these past few days. “If this had happened at a mosque, would our reaction be different?” asked Mr. Singh, a software engineer in suburban New York who also publishes political cartoons online at Sikhtoons.com. “I hope not, but the answer might be yes. You’d have the same amount of coverage, but you might have more voices saying, ‘Well, you know, it’s understandable, we’re at war, we’ve been at war.’ That’s an unfortunate commentary on our society today.”

The paradox is that bias crimes against Muslims are growing a decade after the Sept. 11 attacks. The number of such instances, as tallied by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, had been falling steadily from nearly 500 in 2001 to 107 in 2009. Then, in 2010, the most recent year for which the F.B.I. has data, the number leapt by 50 percent, to 160.

That spike does not look like either a mathematical or historical accident. During 2010, controversy erupted about the proposed “ground zero mosque,” which was actually a community center several blocks away. Prompted by several actual or attempted acts of terrorism by American Muslims, Representative Peter T. King began preparing for hearings in the spring of 2011 on supposedly widespread subversion among millions of American Muslims — an exercise in suspicion, if not guilt, by association.

While those public pageants have largely subsided, there remain well-endowed groups like Jihad Watch, ACT for America and Stop Islamization of America. Several states have passed statutes outlawing the application of Shariah, and thus lending credence to the canard that American Muslims seek to impose their religious law. Representative Michele Bachmann, a former candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, recently accused a Muslim aide to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton of having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.

Such talk adds up to what John Shuford, the director of the Institute for Hate Studies at Gonzaga University in Spokane, Wash., calls “enmification” — the process of turning a particular group into an enemy. Now that American Muslims have been enmified, violence against them is understood in a mitigated, mediated way.

“Rationalization (or the capability of being rationalized) is a good way of putting it,” Professor Shuford wrote in an e-mail message. “Not in the sense of rational behavior or excusability, but in the sense of being understandable, in the way that sometimes leaps in logic, mistaken or misinformed beliefs, outright ignorance and prejudice, and influential social narratives can be quite intelligible even to those who do not view the world in the same way.”

Just one day after the shootings near Milwaukee, a mosque in Joplin, Mo., was burned down. Several weeks earlier, it had also been set afire. This latest episode was covered mostly by the local news media and The Associated Press, with a few larger organizations picking up the wire-service story.

Certainly, an apparent bias crime against property, heinous as that is, does not compare in journalism’s calculus to the bigoted murder of six people. But it is at least worth pondering whether the Joplin arson also set off a kind of internal well-you-must-understand response.

“If it were a church or a synagogue that had been burned down twice, we’d be shocked by it,” Mr. Aslan said. “The narrative about the mosque burning has a sense of expectation to it.”

The problem with enmification, though, is that it knows few bounds. What started with the hatred of Muslims has repeatedly swept up Sikhs (and also, in some cases, Latinos) in its vortex.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Aug 2012 20:53

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/ ... ION-2.html

A mosque in Joplin, Mo., was burned down a day after the shootings in Wisconsin, the second fire there in recent weeks.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Aug 2012 03:20

Albany Hindu Temple is hold a special prayer service for the victims of Wisconsin Gurudwara Gun attack, today at 1 PM in Cultural Center Auditorium located at 450 Albany Shaker Road, Loudonville (Albany),NY 12065. 518 459 7272

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 13 Aug 2012 03:40

ShuryaT, please convey my personal thanks to them (organizers & participants) for doing this.

Brihaspati, long time no hear from you. Good to see your comments. There isn't anything magical about Jew-Sikh closeness. Both wear beards, and robes wtih resemble each other. Both have a strict unbending religion. Both have a long history of state suppression and violence directed at them. Both of them are not minorities, but minorities of minorities (miniscule minority). Both of them are very proud and eager to preserve themselves. Both think of themselves as high achievement religions (Jews are far more, but Sikhs (at least till recently) were too). Such efforts to find commonalities are natural.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Aug 2012 04:19

A_Gupta ji and Surinder bhai,
my post about the Jewish connection was trying to explore all angles - such bracketing or bridge-building whicever way you look at it, could be propagated as conflation of the two. There is a virulent anti-Semitism there, and was just wondering whether the handlers of these movements were also using the anti-Semitism angle to tar and feather any they think are associated with the Jews.

But more we think about it, greater is the nagging suspicion about these types of things being deliberately unleashed by a well equipped and extensive network whose resources can only be matched/supplied at rashtryia levels.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Aug 2012 04:46

AJC mourns Sikhs murdered in Wisconsin shooting

AJC Mourns Sikhs Murdered in Wisconsin
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August 7, 2012 -- New York -- AJC extends heartfelt condolences to the families of the six Sikhs murdered in a heinous attack on their temple near Milwaukee. Several worshipers and a police officer were wounded.

“We fully share with our friends in the Sikh community outrage over this inhuman assault, and cannot begin to fathom why any gunman would target their Wisconsin temple,” said AJC Executive Director David Harris. “Let's be clear: Violence against a house of worship is an assault on the core values at the foundation of American society.”

The gunman, who apparently acted alone, was killed by a police officer. Law enforcement authorities are investigating the shooting as a case of domestic terrorism.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 13 Aug 2012 05:20

Greensboro North Carolina Hindu Temple held a special prayer service last Thursday before Janmashtami pooja, for the victims of Wisconsin Gurudwara Gun attack.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 13 Aug 2012 05:26

We had a Vigil to remember the 9 victims of this hate (6 dead and 3 injured) crime on Saturday here in western PA (There are 35 identified groups of white supremacist people in PA).

A Jewish lady called at Gurdwara phone on Monday (shooting happened on Sunday) asking for forgiveness and confession., she was very happy that muslims are being killed but when she realized that Sikhs have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam she wanted to confess her "happiness"., we told her to contact at least 100 people and tell them that Sikhs and Islam are totally exclusive as there is no "confession" with sikh religion.

We got over 200+ emails from local (all over westen PA, Eastern Ohio and West Viriginia) and hundreds of phone calls from people asking to join the service and if it was going to be any "issue or against sikh religion if we joined" and thus we (gurdwara people) decided to have vigil with Ardaas in both Punjabi and English.

The Gurdwara building is a very small with restriction from fire department of 400 maximum people.

We had a vigil with over 600 people (lots of people standing outside) and there were speeches from US attornery general, 2 US house of representatives (M.Ps), local Mayor, police officials and couple of teachers from universities (Penn State, etc). We went through our normal ceremony (with Guru Granth Sahib's prakash) and explained them the meaning of everything that was sung or said in English. We had speeches and then langar and Candle Light vigil around Nishan sahib (The Flag)!! We had wide variety of people (CAIR group also came there), from Sri Venkataswara Temple, Hindu Jain Temple, Sai Baba Temple, Local churches, Synagogues, Mosques, etc with their families.

There were about 50 or so media personnel (all local TVs, print and even township weekly print media). It was a great success with people thanking for letting us in the gurdwara and we told them that they can go to any gurdwara anywhere in the whole wide world at any time they want provided somebody from Gurdwara is there. Overall a huge success!!

Penn State professor told everybody that normally people would become very inclusive and don't be bothered about but Sikhs came out and tell everybody about who they are and he has been coming here from last 8+ years with his students to teach religion studies!! He said that these guys are really practicing what Jesus Christ wanted us to practice!

I will never forget that sitting 5 feet away from Guru Granth sahib (whole hall was jam packed) a Muslim person's phone (or alarm for his Namaz) goes off with "Allah ho Akbar" and he was ashamed to having disturbed such congregation!!

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 13 Aug 2012 14:26

Brihaspati, that suspicion is there that there is rashtriya support, but do you have any stronger indications that it is?

Others, Americans excel at showing solidarity at times of crisis. It is a national character and a strength.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 13 Aug 2012 16:30

SBajwa wrote: (CAIR group also came there)

SBajwa ji, There will be tremendous temptation to ally with such groups in this situation. But it is my advise that all the non Islamic minorities(Hindus,Sikhs,Jews,Buddhists etc) should avoid Islamic organizations like plague. And CAIR should be at the top of that list.

Ofcourse CAIR and other islamic organizations will always be ready to show their support in such situations, as it allows them to further their doctrine under the all encompassing "Minority" Platform.

I do understand that once someone comes to a religious place(Gurudwara/Mandir/synagogue), he/she should not be refused.

But support from islamic groups should never be actively solicited and all effort should be made to avoid being with them on a same platform.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 13 Aug 2012 19:14

CAIR people just showed up without invitation!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 13 Aug 2012 19:50

SBajwa wrote:CAIR people just showed up without invitation!

What else can you expect from them? They like rest of their islamic brethren are very chaalu(cunning).When they have to curry favor with Christians, they start proclaiming themselves as Abrahmic. Otherwise they become part of the minority. It is all part of Taqiyya(Oh we are just like those harmless Buddhists).The truth is that they are an Arabic religion.

The reason why I asked all the minorities to shun Islam is because you really can't justify islam. No matter how hard you try. Once you start reading Quran and the Hadiths, it will all be clear to you.And America being a nation where majority of the population is internet connected, more and more people are becoming aware of Islam. Hence anybody who is islamist or anyone who is seen to be close to Islam will be on their wrong side(and rightly so). That is for sure.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 13 Aug 2012 20:04

Have a Paki coworker. Always talks about how Sikhs are closer to them than Indians. Never shops at Indian Owned stores. But proudly does at Sikh owned stores.. May be they are brainwashed somehow about Sikhs from a young age

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Aug 2012 20:14

kshatriya wrote:Have a Paki coworker. Always talks about how Sikhs are closer to them than Indians. Never shops at Indian Owned stores. But proudly does at Sikh owned stores.. May be they are brainwashed somehow about Sikhs from a young age

Please ask him why were Sikhs were genecodided and reduced from 25% to 1% in Pakjab. Also ask him why were Sikhs attacked repeadly by Paki groups in J&K, what is happening today in Pakjab, peshawar etc.

Also, ask why does he think Sikhs do not cut thier hair and carry a Kirpan, also what happenned to the 9th and 10th Gurus of the Sikhs.

Pakis are really riche arent they?

Really sad that this hard working community has been attacked in WIsconsin.

The only reason Pakis identify with Sikhs is part of thier Mental Mast******** about the breakup of India with Sikhs, DAAlits, Maoists, Ulfa, Kashmir rising up and killing the Baniya Kaafirs.

Paki actions show they do not care for Sikhs.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 13 Aug 2012 20:36

Actually its a "her" from the Capital... Even at work anything negative about Pak is countered with India is like that onlee... There was a guy new to the city asking for Indian Restaurant Recommendation and she gladly mentions the Paki/Bangla ones that are masquerading as Indian ones....

Now I'm noticing her using " South Asian" more... I won't be suprised she identifies herself as Indian to strangers

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Aug 2012 20:58

sanjaykumar wrote:Please do not push your agendas on Sikhs. Several of their spokesmen have made it clear that they are more closely related to Muslims. It would be foolish to not proceed accordingly.

I was around in the 1980s right after Bluestar and the massacres of the following November, and had many discussions with Sikhs and Hindus--face to face, not in internet burkha. It was the same as now: some Hindus just can't let go of grievances against Sikhs even in the face of the latter's massive grief and anger due to a monstrous crime by leaders who are not on anyone's side but their own. It was hard to answer the question from anguished Sikhs: first, you don't respect our differences, then you treat us as separate when we are in a world of grief. Tell me, why shouldn't we be separate? I could only answer, but sardarji, I am here and for me you are one of my own.

Nearly 30 years later, I am still here, sardarji. And Nov 1984 still goes unaccounted for by civilized India.

My humble suggestion to fellow Hindus pontificating about Sikhs and their deficiencies: please try and hold your tongue at least for this moment. Reserve your boiling indignation for dharma's common enemies.