INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Sep 2013 11:05

Welcome back CJ!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 27 Sep 2013 11:08

^^ Great piece Chako ji.

Original reporting on Arihant is pretty rare .

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 11:26

Thank you sir's.

I just added a the info on DRDO NSTL AUV in the sub trials. I had forgotten to mention it.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 27 Sep 2013 13:05

chackojoseph wrote:Nuclear Submarine INS Arihant diving trials awaits rescue vehicle from Russia

I got a whiff of it and tried my level best to make it as an article.

Welcome, Sir.

we are always feeling your absence.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Sep 2013 13:15

wonder why we never bought these from them. Are these not for sale ???

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Sep 2013 13:29

Thank you very much Mr arijitkm.

krishnan... We have INS Nireekshak witha diving support submersible called Bell, which can take 12 survivors wit limited depth. It goes in with an attachment. Now navy wants free swimming DSRV's since the submarine profile is changing with Scorpenes, P-75I and Arihant etc. Some specs are here Indian Navy floats interest for 2 free Swimming Deep Submergence Rescue Vessels.

We had an agreement with US for sub rescue and they changed our Kilo hatches's to suit their DSRV.

Now, INS Arihant going critical was not sure and hence, they probably did not contract for a DSRV for diving trials. The reason is that Russian experts come along with the DSRV's and Kilo subs have been experience with them after the refit trials.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2013 20:45

Nuclear submarine engineer found dead on railway tracks in Visakhapatnam

VISAKHAPATNAM: Bodies of two defence personnel were found under suspicious circumstances on the railway tracks falling under Pendurty railway station (PRS) limits of East Coast Railways (ECoR) here on Sunday morning.

On being informed by railway trackmen, Government Railway Police (GRP) at Visakhapatnam railway station immediately reached the spot. Following enquiries, one of the deceased was identified as KK Josh, 34, chief engine room artificer (CERA) at Shipbuilding Centre, a unit of ministry of defence at the Eastern Naval Command (ENC) premises here. The other was identified as Abhish Shivam, 33, a chief engineer working at INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine.

While Josh, a resident of Kakani Nagar near the airport, was a native of Kozhikode, Shivam belonged to Ernakulam district in Kerala and was living at the Navy quarters at Dolphins Hills. Both of them were posted in the city three years ago.

The GRP team along with a dog squad and fingerprint team scouted the area around the tracks and collected clues. While GRP cops maintained that a case was registered and awaiting the postmortem report from King George Hospital, relatives of the deceased and the leaders of Kerala Kala Samiti (KKS) alleged that the deaths appeared to be under suspicious circumstances and demanded that the police immediately launch a high-scale probe into the incident.

GRP circle inspector A Parthasaradhi told TOI that they had not seen any suspicious marks on the bodies of the two near the railway tracks. "As on Sunday, we filed a case and sent the bodies for postmortem at KGH. We have to wait for the report before making any statement," Parthasaradhi said.

Relatives and locals, however, raised suspicion over the incident, pointing out that there were no visible injuries on the bodies to show that they had come under a passing train. Suspicion was also raised that the two had been attacked elsewhere and their bodies thrown near the tracks.

GRP officials said there were no suspicious marks on the bodies. But the victims' kin said there were no visible injuries to show they had been run over by a train.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Oct 2013 20:51

This shows how deep we have been penetrated and compromised. Heck our head of the nation is foreigner, what to say

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Oct 2013 21:51

Kindly desist from conspiracy theories. What do you know of the issue to post stuff like this ?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 07 Oct 2013 22:24

I do not, but two people connected to high level defense project suddenly do not die like that...as did many scientist from BARC dying in road accidents in 1980s, 1990s (even now) or our greenfield facilities on fab catching fire (one known fire to one known fab in public domain, few unknown fires on unknown fabs)

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 08 Oct 2013 01:50

Govt. should take these issues seriously. Two defence engineers working on our nuclear submarine lying dead on a railway track is not a joke. There is definitely something fishy going on here.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 08 Oct 2013 01:58

Where does it say two engineers working on nuclear submarine?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Oct 2013 04:19

JEM, See this report. Atleast one of them is directly mentioned as working on the project and the other is implied for SBC is where the boat is being fitted.

Following enquiries, one of the deceased was identified as KK Josh, 34, chief engine room artificer (CERA) at Shipbuilding Centre, a unit of ministry of defence at the Eastern Naval Command (ENC) premises here. The other was identified as Abhish Shivam, 33, a chief engineer working at INS Arihant, India's first nuclear-powered submarine.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Oct 2013 04:47

RIP to the deceased. Can people be identified to the extent of the specific roles within SBC, in their normal daily lives, just by means of inquiries ? I'm not sure that information would be revealed. I find it very curious that a news article was able to claim such a seemingly detailed piece of information about their backgrounds, that would otherwise arguably not be available.

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Oct 2013 09:12

the names given are not the right ones.

the first one is Cherian K. Jose (Chief Engine Room Artificer)
the second one is Abhish T. Shivan (Arihant Engineer)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Oct 2013 04:33

Both are from Kerala. What is exaspertaing is what is the suspicion abbout their deaths other than them being workign in the shipyard and most likely on same project?
How far is the place the bodies were found from the shipyard and residences? All type of CSI questions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2013 07:20

JE Menon wrote:Where does it say two engineers working on nuclear submarine?

It says one, and the other closely associated.

my connection to the dot is the CERA person.. an artificer job is to document engineering drawings of warships etc.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Oct 2013 11:56

Exactly. One is a CE, and the other one is doing a different type of job - albeit a sensitive one. Does not look like they even work out of the same location. I guess we are not going to get much detail on this. One hell of a coincidence though, judging from the initial reports of their demise... Strange that two people (especially in this line of work) should be walking around the railway tracks and be struck dead with no apparent cause of injury around the same time and same day....

partha · Post by **partha** » 11 Oct 2013 12:51

JE Menon wrote:Strange that two people (especially in this line of work) should be walking around the railway tracks and be struck dead with no apparent cause of injury around the same time and same day....

Come on Menonji, you really think this is what happened? Most probably both were killed some where else and the bodies were dumped on the railway track which is not strange. It happens.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Oct 2013 13:20

Like I said, I guess we're not going to get much detail on this one...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Oct 2013 07:26

was this posted ?

Secret of the admiral’s love child
By R. Prasannan

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... 535&BV_ID=@@@

I once asked Vice-Admiral Mihir K. Roy, who passed away last week, about the secret child he had fathered. He responded in Tamil, saying he expected all Mallus to follow spoken Tamil. I failed.
That was his way of responding to a difficult question.

 In 1998, when I asked him about it, he was no longer associated with the project, but he wouldn't talk. The project he had fathered was then known, or unknown, as ATV or advanced technology vehicle, and billed as India's best-kept, or worst-kept, secret after the Pokharan bombs of 1974 and 1998. Those who talked about it were doomed. Subba Rao, a bright young naval captain, innocuously mentioned it in his Ph.D thesis; he was caught while taking the thesis to the US and sent to jail. Vishnu Bhagwat, a dashing navy chief, asked questions about it; he was summarily sacked—the only chief sacked in free India.

That was the last time I saw Roy. He was teary-eyed. Roy had been a sea lord, a sea lore, long before Indira Gandhi made him the first director of the ATV project in 1983. He had flown India's first naval planes in the 1950s. He had been the chief of naval intelligence during the 1971 war, and trained the Bangla guerrillas to sabotage Pak warships. He had commanded India's first aircraft-carrier, INS Vikrant. He had headed the Navy's strategic eastern command. He had been the London roommate of Raja Ramanna, the father of Indian bomb. He understood nuclear physics. He could speak Tamil, which, as Commodore Uday Bhaskar wrote, was the mother-tongue of most of India's defence and nuclear scientists; and of defence minister R. Venkataraman who recommended him to Indira Gandhi.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Oct 2013 07:41

Sad news."Mickey" Roy ,as he was called by a close rel. ,who was associated with him in some of his endeavours.He was one of the IN's legends.RIP .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Oct 2013 08:12

Philip
I recall reading an article by him Naval Inst Proceedings on India and the Indian Ocean.

RIP

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 20 Oct 2013 19:49

Plans on to get Second Akula on lease. Its like whiskey on a cold day.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 438263.cms

Under the project, India is planning to finance the construction of an old Akula Class submarine 'Irbis' in Russia,

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Oct 2013 02:50

PMO unconcerned about scientist deaths

Hard hitting article about the apathy (I'd say even connivance) of PMO regarding the unnatural deaths of our key defence personnel - scientists & engineers - working on INS Arihant. Even Iran takes better care of its key people

They had apparently been poisoned and their bodies placed on the tracks to make it seem like an accident. However, they were discovered by a passer-by before a train could pass over the bodies. In any other country, the murder of two engineers connected to a crucial strategic program would have created a media storm. However, the deaths of the two were passed off both by the media as well as by the Ministry of Defence as a routine accident, with only the ordinary police officer tasked with investigations into the cause of death. The inquiries went nowhere.

The killer had used a duplicate key to enter the house and strangle the engineer in his sleep. Interestingly, efforts were made by some of the investigating police officers to pass the death off as a suicide. Finally, the Mumbai police decided to register a case of murder. However, as is usual in such cases, no arrests were made and the investigation ran into a stonewall. Forensics experts say that in all such unexplained deaths of scientists and engineers involved in the nuclear program, fingerprints are absent, as also other telltale clues that would assist the police in identifying the culprit. These indicate a high degree of professionalism behind the murders, such as can be found in top-flight intelligence agencies of the type that have been so successful in killing Iranian scientists and engineers active in that country's nuclear program

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2013 04:31

we should move away from everthing PMO and MOD model to process establishments, with budgetary allocations at zonal and state levels for taking care of key projects, programs, officials and resources. what am i talking as if i know everything.. a 1 billion planet is keeping quite, and why should i alone blab on these matters. of course OT, but related.

/rant

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 30 Oct 2013 09:34

Prem Kumar wrote:PMO unconcerned about scientist deaths

Hard hitting article about the apathy (I'd say even connivance) of PMO regarding the unnatural deaths of our key defence personnel - scientists & engineers - working on INS Arihant. Even Iran takes better care of its key people

They had apparently been poisoned and their bodies placed on the tracks to make it seem like an accident. However, they were discovered by a passer-by before a train could pass over the bodies. In any other country, the murder of two engineers connected to a crucial strategic program would have created a media storm. However, the deaths of the two were passed off both by the media as well as by the Ministry of Defence as a routine accident, with only the ordinary police officer tasked with investigations into the cause of death. The inquiries went nowhere.

The killer had used a duplicate key to enter the house and strangle the engineer in his sleep. Interestingly, efforts were made by some of the investigating police officers to pass the death off as a suicide. Finally, the Mumbai police decided to register a case of murder. However, as is usual in such cases, no arrests were made and the investigation ran into a stonewall. Forensics experts say that in all such unexplained deaths of scientists and engineers involved in the nuclear program, fingerprints are absent, as also other telltale clues that would assist the police in identifying the culprit. These indicate a high degree of professionalism behind the murders, such as can be found in top-flight intelligence agencies of the type that have been so successful in killing Iranian scientists and engineers active in that country's nuclear program

For all we know, the MoD or the Navy's response could only be seemingly 'unresponsive' only to put the media hounds off the trail. (Because we all know how the media handles issues of national security)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Oct 2013 09:41

This is shocking news,very disturbing.It means that the city is host to unmentionables who stoop to nothing to sabotage our N-sub capability.Not being able to penetrate the base they are picking off our highly skilled naval officers.

Frankly,I don't think that the PMO cares about anything these days other than getting out of the "coal mine" it is trapped in!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Nov 2013 02:10

Vasu: I only wish that this is true. Somehow, I dont think so. There is no abatement to the killings of our key defence scientists (remember G.K. Kumaravel - the chief Arjun tank designer who was killed in a lorry crash last year?)

The PM has his own agenda & wouldnt even mind if India were demilitarized. UPA is on its last legs & didnt give a **** about security even in the best of times.

Very depressing

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 Dec 2013 23:47

INS Arihant likely to be commissioned in a year: Navy Chief

NEW DELHI: The Navy today said it was hoping to commission the indigenously-developed nuclear submarine INS Arihant in its fleet in over a year's time as it was getting ready for sea trials.

Addressing a press conference, Navy Chief Admiral D K Joshi also said the issue of imposition of air defence regulations by China over East China Sea was under its "close examination".

"The nuclear propulsion plant of Arihant had attained criticality on August 10. There are a series of ..
physics experiments which are essentially rehearing for emergencies that could occur while its loading.

"That is in progress and this would be completed in next two weeks and the boat would be put for sea trials... In about a years time after she is put for sea trials, we hope to have her commissioned," he said.

INS Arihant is the first of the Arihant class submarines of the Indian Navy and it has been developed in collaboration between the DRDO and public and private sector industries with the help of Russian scientists.

The Navy chief said the harbour trials of the vessel were complete.

Asked whether the submarine would be without much potent weaponry, Joshi said, "The boat will not be toothless. It will have what it needs to have."

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Dec 2013 06:00

India's first N-sub to head for sea trials in Feb-March

NEW DELHI: India's first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant will finally head for the open seas for extensive trials, which will include firing of its nuclear-tipped K-15 ballistic missiles, around February-March next year.

Though long in the making, considering that India's first thought of building a nuclear submarine started way back in 1970, the sea trials of INS Arihant will mark a critical milestone towards giving some much-needed credible teeth to the country's strategic deterrence posture.

Navy chief Admiral D K Joshi on Tuesday said INS Arihant's nuclear reactor, which went "critical" on August 10, was currently undergoing a series of graduated "activities" towards attaining 100% power at Visakhapatnam. "This will be completed over the next few weeks...thereafter the submarine will go for sea trials. It has already completed harbour-acceptance trials," he said.

The Navy as well as other agencies like the Department of Atomic Energy (DEA), Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) and DRDO have not been in any tearing hurry to "fully load" the 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor on board the 6,000-tonne submarine.

"This is the first time the country has built a nuclear-powered vessel. With the reactor power being raised by 5-10% at a time, the tests are being conducted in a deliberate, meticulous manner," said another top officer.

Though India has the land-based Agni missiles and fighters like Mirage-2000s to deliver nuclear weapons, its nuclear weapons triad will be completed only when INS Arihant successfully completes its sea trials spread over at least 12 months.

The K-15 missiles, with a strike range of 750-km, have only been fired from submerged pontoons till now. They will have to pass muster during INS Arihant's trials, even as DRDO develops the 3,500-km K-4 missiles.

But the Navy seems quite confident. "Let me assure you that when INS Arihant is commissioned, it will not be toothless. She will have whatever she is supposed to have," said Admiral Joshi, speaking ahead of the Navy Day on Wednesday.

As reported earlier, India is also negotiating the lease of a second nuclear-powered submarine from Russia, at a cost of about $1.5 billion, to bolster its ageing underwater combat arm. The Navy has been running INS Chakra, the Akula-II class nuclear submarine called "K-152 Nerpa", since April 2012 after paying Russia almost $1 billion for a 10-year lease. Though these submarines are nuclear-propelled, they cannot be armed with nuclear missiles due to international treaties.

Nuclear-powered submarines, armed with long-range nuclear missiles, are considered to be the most effective and difficult-to-detect leg of the nuclear triad. The US leads the pack, with around 70 such submarines. While Russia has around 30, China, the UK and France have 8-12 each.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Dec 2013 07:00

pankajs wrote:India's first N-sub to head for sea trials in Feb-March
...

Though India has the land-based Agni missiles and fighters like Mirage-2000s to deliver nuclear weapons, its nuclear weapons triad will be completed only when INS Arihant successfully completes its sea trials spread over at least 12 months.

...

I wonder if as part of the Mirage-2000UPG it also includes nuclear hardening of electronics and other modifications related to nuclear delivery? The French have extensive experience with building and operating Mirage-2000Ns in nuclear delivery role and they have no qualms on Indian nuclear ambitions. Since the Indian SFC was looking for 40 nuclear delivery aircrafts under its command, it makes sense that the IAF would go in for those changes as part of the Mirage-2000 upgrades and maybe that is one reason for why the upgrade has been really expensive.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Dec 2013 18:35

What are exactly done in sea trials of a submarine.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 18:54

limits of performance and reliability at those limits e.g ballast operations at various depths, speed and inclinations, maneuvering at various depth and engine conditions, max diving depth, max speed under certain engine conditions (silent running and full power). checking noise emissions, sonar performance and reactor health at those conditions, so on.
later weapons firings would be conducted as well.
an endless list of parameters that essentially benchmark the sub as a fighting machine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2013 19:04

also measure counter measures, who are all the P5 nations observing each and every move.. it is like the first move from a vishwanathan anand game.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Dec 2013 19:20

Rahul M wrote:limits of performance and reliability at those limits e.g ballast operations at various depths, speed and inclinations, maneuvering at various depth and engine conditions, max diving depth, max speed under certain engine conditions (silent running and full power). checking noise emissions, sonar performance and reactor health at those conditions, so on.
later weapons firings would be conducted as well.
an endless list of parameters that essentially benchmark the sub as a fighting machine.

Why does this usually take over a year ? Are these tests done serially or in parallel ?(For eg a depth test + speed test) What is the usual reason for delays ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Dec 2013 06:43

The 2nd gas centrifuge near Mysore may be near completion, may boost nuclear weapon material production

India has reportedly made highly enriched uranium (HEU) at this site, and in 2011 its top nuclear official said this enrichment site is more than adequate for producing enough enriched uranium for its nuclear-powered submarine reactors. India’s newly developed Arihant-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine is assessed as having an 80 megawatt-thermal nuclear reactor onboard and a core that contains approximately 65 kg of U-235 in HEU. Although the INS Arihant reactor went critical for the first time only in August 2013, India has started the construction of its second nuclear-powered submarine -INS Aridaman and is believed to have plans to start the construction of a third one.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Dec 2013 15:59

prasannasimha wrote:
Rahul M wrote:limits of performance and reliability at those limits e.g ballast operations at various depths, speed and inclinations, maneuvering at various depth and engine conditions, max diving depth, max speed under certain engine conditions (silent running and full power). checking noise emissions, sonar performance and reactor health at those conditions, so on.
later weapons firings would be conducted as well.
an endless list of parameters that essentially benchmark the sub as a fighting machine.
Why does this usually take over a year ? Are these tests done serially or in parallel ?(For eg a depth test + speed test) What is the usual reason for delays ?

I am not an expert by any means but to benchmark a boat as complex as a SSBN over its full range of capabilities and some beyond as well as keeping a meticulous record of it all would take some time. and if they find some niggles it would come back for adjustments.

this is somewhat like the flight testing procedure for aircraft. imagine how long that takes ! then consider that you have multiple platforms for testing in case of aircraft, allowing tests to go on simultaneously.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Dec 2013 19:55

prasannasimha wrote:What are exactly done in sea trials of a submarine.

If you'll watch movie "K-129 Widowmaker", you might get an idea. Though maybe not that extreme for subs in reality. But still its an eye opener.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2013 20:12

another thing might be going at full speed ahead, then going full ahead reverse to stress test the propulsion system.
here a USN ship demos that move...31knots front, 13knots back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLSuWHvZzdU