Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Aug 2011 23:13

^^ A_Gupta,

What would you say about those who say the same about the "bad" Taliban? Even more illiberal Pakis?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 Aug 2011 00:06

SSridhar wrote:Altaf's question
If a 1992-like operation is started again, will the Indian leaders provide accommodation to 50 million Muhajirs of Pakistan?” asked the MQM chief.

Hell, No!!!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Aug 2011 00:24

Tharoor and others who write in this manner need to be supported and encouraged, not have their works nitpicked and taken apart as not good enough because it didn't meet BRF standard. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here - he didn't gain his insight from here, but from his own interactions. He's intelligent and straightforward enough to call a spade a spade once it becomes obvious. Gently pat him and encourage him to interact with particular entities, and he'll become more jingoized on his own accord.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Aug 2011 00:27

SSridhar wrote:Altaf's question
Mr Hussain said that since the government has failed to stop the ongoing violence, the army and Rangers should come forward to protect the lives of innocent people. “What should the Muhajirs do now? Should they go back [to India]? If a 1992-like operation is started again, will the Indian leaders provide accommodation to 50 million Muhajirs of Pakistan?” asked the MQM chief.

Can be discussed! Depends what they bring in dahej! Without dahej no marriage!

However where does the 50 million figure come from? From Mr. Altaf Hussein's musharraf? Wikipedia says that the Muhajirs make around 7.57% of the population, i.e. circa 13.3 million as per 2009 estimates.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Aug 2011 00:53

MFN status is the first step towards the liberalized Indian visa policy the RAPE have been demanding. This will allow every random TSP 'business' person (Adnan & Heera anyone) to demand a visa to enter the country. It was the business class in TSP that opposed the MFN. Their business class has been looking for an exit plan for some time. This might be part of it.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Aug 2011 01:34

The inflation in Pakistan is starting to bite the population badly, and basically importing all the stuff from India is the easiest way to push down the prices.

Pakistan has no other alternative than allowing Indian products to come in.

The less Pakistanis have to spend on basic necessities that need to be imported, the more money the population has for buying all that what is produced in Pakistan itself. That allows more money with the population to buy hoarded wheat, rice and sugar.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Aug 2011 01:38

A_Gupta wrote: To repeat, if a Pakistani thinks that "good Taliban" and pigLeTs work in their national interests, then that Pakistani is not a liberal and there is no point for Indians to talk to them.

I agree with the part about no point for Indians to talk to them. But according to TSP RAPE & US-led international communty defintion of a Paki liberal: A Paki is a liberal if he/she opposes the mighty Al Queda and other Isalmists that threaten the west. Most of the world accepts and even justifies TSP's reliance on "good Taliban" and pigLeTs to combat big baad India in the "unresolved disputes". And the world minus India minus RNIs/WKKs don't see a contradiction between a Paki liberal and their adovocation of "good Taliban" and pigLeTs to secure national intersts; its all because of India. Jihadi Haider, Jihadi Sethi, late Taseer, terrorist Mush etc all are Paki "liberals" in the minds of most of the world. Recall the outporing of support from all and sundry including RNIs/WKKs for Taseer. This is what Thaoroor should have brought out. But Tharoor makes a good beginning, its a step in the right direction.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Aug 2011 01:55

RajeshA wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Altaf's question
Can be discussed! Depends what they bring in dahej! Without dahej no marriage!

However where does the 50 million figure come from? From Mr. Altaf Hussein's musharraf? Wikipedia says that the Muhajirs make around 7.57% of the population, i.e. circa 13.3 million as per 2009 estimates.

He might be including Balochis too. Whatever tha may be, 'Samayamayila'.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 06 Aug 2011 02:20

shiv wrote:If you look at the figures for smuggling between India and Pakistan and "unofficial trade" it runs into a huge figure. Pakiatan, I believe is an importer of lots of Indian stuff from automobile parts, tyres and drugs. Smuggling benefits smugglers - with D company at the top, and the Paki government has naturally been reluctant to kill the golden goose that ensures that the wrong set of people make a handsome profit.

There are Indians who lose out from ths smuggling. It is far better to have a system in place that allows trade with Pakistan.

In some ways the Pakistani elite have us fooled. They invoke ideology to stop legal transactions with India while a few elites benefit from illegal transaction. We fall for this ideological excuse and put up a rigid ideology of our own and refuse trade with Pakistan only to our detriment.

Imagine a situation in which Rajasthan stopped trading with Gujarat. That would not stop trade. It would only encourage illegal channels. The goods would get through via alternate channels where other middlemen would make money. So for example if an Indian company were able to sell pain killers to Pakistan because of low Indian prices, the price advantage would go to China because of the need to have a midddleman smuggle the drug.

I have already mentioned how, in the last thread, hoarders and feudal lords in Pakistan would oppose free trade because lower Indian prices would kill their ability to hoard and fix prices in Pakistan.

The other striking thing that I think people are missing is the striking similarity betwen Pakistan and India in terms of ordinary day to day objects. For example the moulded cement kerb stones which appeared in India in the last 10 years are the same in Pakistan. There is some foreign/third party company that is selling the moulds/machinery to both countries. Pakistan has Maruti Alto and Maruti Omni cars under some other name.. A third party is making profits from Pakistan - possibly even sourcing from India because of lack of a trade agreement.

Bollywood movies are a significant export from India. I betcha not a single penny comes from Pakhanastan despite Bollywood's popularity because the whole thing is in the hands of the mafia. And teh mafia are in cahooots with the Pakistani elite/army/establishment/feudals.

You dont have to look very far. Bajaj, (Maruti) Suzuki and a host of other Indian companies do export to Pakistan. Not directly though. They use Dubai as a re-export hub. The decals of the vehicles are removed in Dubai and shipped onwards to Pakistan. Items are also re-packaged and then shipped onwards. This has been happening for a long time now. Two wheelers, three wheelers, LMVs, soaps & detergents, medicine et al. Dubai is THE re-export hub for many Indian companies that want their products to reach Pakistan, Iran, East Africa besides others.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Aug 2011 02:34

CRamS wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: To repeat, if a Pakistani thinks that "good Taliban" and pigLeTs work in their national interests, then that Pakistani is not a liberal and there is no point for Indians to talk to them.
....This is what Thaoroor should have brought out. But Tharoor makes a good beginning, its a step in the right direction.

Which is what he did in his very first article.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Aug 2011 02:57

The trade-no-trade debate throws up some interesting questions for me.

Here is one report I could find on the net about the "grey-market" :
http://www.worldtradereview.com/news.as ... &nID=27646

Indo-Pak grey market trade worth $965 m in 2005-06: Study

New Delhi: The grey market trade between India and Pakistan was higher by 37.85 per cent than the official trade between the two countries at the end of 2005-06, according to a study conducted by Assocham.

The official bilateral trade figure for the period was around $700 million, while the grey market trade is estimated at $965 million during the period, according to the study.

The reasons further cited for the volume of that trade are interesting actually. Those factors will remain in place until an FTA comes in. So simply more trade through official channels will not reduce the "grey" market, unless the official trading channel becomes cost-competitive for traders on both sides. So maybe staged reduction of tariff/costs/customs on increasing number of items of interest - until the reduction matches "unofficial" costs [including the protection money paid to political apparatus].

But then it also means that on quantitative macro terms - Pak is getting the things it consumes from India anyway. Since Pak population is still increasing it means that sufficient basic factor inputs for reproduction of the population is actually entering the Pak economy. Thus the feudals may pocket profits but they are forced to allow subsistence inputs in quantitative terms.

Even if trade liberalizes, the very existence of the Paki rashtra where feudal-military-mullah complex forms one single block in power terms and only a few families control almost all of the trade and industry, will ensure that profits will still be controlled by this very same complex.

The military may not be against trade liberalization in general - as far as I know they were keen on FTA with PRC. Here either they are simply scared that the feudals may get out of control and come to separate "understanding" with India bypassing the military because of their trading or mercantile interests. Or the military itself carries on the grey-trade and top echelons pocket the profit. But another angle is that grey or "black" flows provide a means of funding away from rashtryia records - that can be used for covert activities.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 06 Aug 2011 03:21

Suppiah wrote:

If TSP gives MFN to India we should encourage the import of furniture and rice and other vegetables from TSP. For one the furniture is of good quality as I have seen in shops in ME, the other it reduces TSP's tree cover. Importing rice is just importing water, only much easier to transport..we can divert to other crops that save water..

Posted earlier by Anup Misra sahib:

Some 134 food export consignments rejected in last three years.

KARACHI, June 2 -- About 134 food export consignments have been rejected by European countries due to presence of pesticides residues, heavy metals and aflatoxins in the last three years.

...

He said that most of these consignments were of chilies, spices, dry fruits, pickles and brown rice. We are also receiving alert notices from European countries, he added.

I wouldn't put it past Packee's to add additional poisons to any foodstuff they export to India.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 06 Aug 2011 03:40

US prepared to snatch Pakistan nukes: NBC News

Islamabad—The Obama administration is escalating its psychological warfare against the Pak military establishment through leaking very sensitive reports to the American and world media. In this regard, the NBC News reported that the US military and intelligence operatives are debating, strategizing, gaming and potentially even conducting crisis on entering Pakistan and seizing the nation’s nuclear weapons during a crisis. The former White House Deputy Counter-Terrorism Director Roger Cressey confirmed the planning and term the scheme as,” The highest priorities of the US intelligence community and the White House.” He disclosed that the planned operation would be “snatch and grab” the nukes and that US Special Forces would try to dismantle or eliminate them.

A US Congressional Research Service report debated the case and justified it, claiming that Pakistan has to be deprived of its 90-110 nuclear arsenals. Princeton University Pakistan academic Zia Mian disclosed that CIA and Defence Department frequently conducted preparations to snatch the nukes. They’ve exercised attacking Iran; hence Pakistan should be ready for such episode.

In his 2009 book” Defusing Armageddon,” intelligence scholar Jeffery Richelson wrote that the then US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Peter Pace five years ago outlined two kinds of situations:” elimination operations” and “ interdiction operations by the United States to secure Pak nuclear weapons. The operations’ task would be to locate, secure, disable and/or destroy Pak nukes.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Aug 2011 03:46

Paki lurks...india is watching where you are moving your dirty bums... They will bebrahmosed soon along with your own khars = asses = bums

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 06 Aug 2011 04:17

VinodTK wrote:US prepared to snatch Pakistan nukes: NBC News
Islamabad—The Obama administration is escalating its psychological warfare against the Pak military establishment through leaking very sensitive reports to the American and world media. In this regard, the NBC News reported that the US military and intelligence operatives are debating, strategizing, gaming and potentially even conducting crisis on entering Pakistan and seizing the nation’s nuclear weapons during a crisis.

If US is really planning to snatch the Pak nukes, would they release the plan ahead ? It can only be snatched by surprise and why would they release it ahead. Me thinks this is only to put pressure on Pak to toe the US line.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Aug 2011 05:09

2011 is bloodiest year for Karachi since 1995

At least 800 people have been killed in ethnic clashes and politically linked violence in Karachi this year, the bloodiest since 1995, Pakistan's human rights commission said Friday.

The HRCP official said the violence in Karachi is the deadliest since 1995, when more than 900 killings were reported in the first half of the year.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Aug 2011 05:12

U.S. to establish consulate in Pakistan's Balochistan not allowed

Pakistan's security agencies and the Foreign Ministry have opposed opening of American consulate to be set up in southwestern Balochistan province over security concerns, reported local Urdu TV channel Dawn on Friday.
According to the report, U.S. ambassador in Islamabad Cameron Munter is making efforts for the opening of the consulate in Balochistan.

The U.S. has long been anxious to open consulate in Balochistan, which borders Afghanistan and Iran, but the move has been opposed by Pakistani security agencies and the Foreign Ministry.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 05:58

brihaspati wrote: Even if trade liberalizes, the very existence of the Paki rashtra where feudal-military-mullah complex forms one single block in power terms and only a few families control almost all of the trade and industry, will ensure that profits will still be controlled by this very same complex.

The military may not be against trade liberalization in general - as far as I know they were keen on FTA with PRC. Here either they are simply scared that the feudals may get out of control and come to separate "understanding" with India bypassing the military because of their trading or mercantile interests. Or the military itself carries on the grey-trade and top echelons pocket the profit. But another angle is that grey or "black" flows provide a means of funding away from rashtryia records - that can be used for covert activities.

True on both counts, but para 2 describes how the profiteers of para 1 above can lose business and monopolies. The other thing is the "sanctions factor" can kick in if trade is allowed. If India ends up supplying say 25% or more of the car tires requirements of Pakistan then a stoppage of that can create immediate shortages.

But Indian soldiers have been killed in the last 7 days. One part of Pakistan is interested in maintaining a uniform anti-India policy on various levels - on the ideological level, on the profiteering level etc. We are allowing that group to have it their way by a mirror image, tit for tat stance. By following a more schizophrenic "flexible" policy we can erode the rigid anti-India structures built up in Pakistan.

I think we are gradually going to see a Pakistan that is not getting the sort of help it wants from the USA and China simply because Islam has gone too far in Pakistan and cannot be put back in the bottle (if at all) without much bloodshed. To me this might be an opportunity for India to create splits in Pakistani society by opening trade channels that benefits previously ignored/sidelined people such as border traders/laborers. I would bet that they are all Islamists who support the Jamaat ud Dawa and Lahskar e Toiba. But they are already doing that now and India has no way of putting pressure on their personal lives. Getting a handle on them which can be used to manipulate them is important. One reason why Pakistan resists trade is precisely this ability India will have over mango Pakis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 06:11

VinodTK wrote:US prepared to snatch Pakistan nukes: NBC News
Islamabad—The Obama administration is escalating its psychological warfare against the Pak military establishment

This report is compete trash. The US will not grab Paki nukes simply because they do not know where they all are. However claiming that the US wants to grab Paki nukes is a sort of admission that Pakis actually have nukes which could be a way of pleasing Pakis as opposed to pointing out that their nuke scientitists are actually accountants. Bean counters and not neutron counters.

I agree that this news item is psy war alright but it is not US psy war against Pakistan as is claimed. It is Pakstani psy war against the US that seeks to create more paranoia about the US in Pakistani circles. Obama would be a brainless idiot if he allowed such reports to be leaked and anyone who accuses Obama of being that stupid has to be a Republican if he ain't Paki. What would this SDRE know?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 06 Aug 2011 06:18

PPP-MQM deal

Following days of political friction and bloodletting in Karachi, there has been a gradual softening of stances in both the PPP and MQM. On Friday, leaders of both parties met at an Iftar hosted by Sindh Chief Minister Qaim Ali Shah in Karachi in what was meant to be an ice-breaking congregation. the meeting was a follow up of a decision taken at the Presidency two days earlier, where the allied parties in the Sindh government had authorised Zardari to intervene and take all necessary steps to bring normalcy in the violence-hit financial hub of the country and to bring the MQM back into the government’s fold.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Aug 2011 07:25

shiv wrote: The other thing is the "sanctions factor" can kick in if trade is allowed. If India ends up supplying say 25% or more of the car tires requirements of Pakistan then a stoppage of that can create immediate shortages.

But these sanctions will be opposed by people who were benefiting by selling car tires.

American sanctions did not work after Pokharan 2 because American companies wanted to sell their products to India. Similarly, India's sanctions will not work because ...

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Aug 2011 07:38

anupmisra wrote:
If a 1992-like operation is started again, will the Indian leaders provide accommodation to 50 million Muhajirs of Pakistan?” asked the MQM chief.
Hell, No!!!

Not 50 million more "beneficiaries" of MNREGA entering the country.

not now ,not ever.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Aug 2011 07:41

abhishek_sharma wrote:
shiv wrote: The other thing is the "sanctions factor" can kick in if trade is allowed. If India ends up supplying say 25% or more of the car tires requirements of Pakistan then a stoppage of that can create immediate shortages.
But these sanctions will be opposed by people who were benefiting by selling car tires.

American sanctions did not work after Pokharan 2 because American companies wanted to sell their products to India. Similarly, India's sanctions will not work because ...

Pakiland is a barely 150 Billion dollar economy . At the most what would be the market size for Indian products if MFN status is granted ? Besides Indian companies are selling in TSP indirectly and making profit. The loser is the mango Paki who has to pay a higher price . Why do we care? There is no way we should relieve them from their economic stress . Besides why do you want to open Indian market towards Paki agro goods. I cant imagine eating rice made in TSP.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 07:43

abhishek_sharma wrote:
shiv wrote: The other thing is the "sanctions factor" can kick in if trade is allowed. If India ends up supplying say 25% or more of the car tires requirements of Pakistan then a stoppage of that can create immediate shortages.
But these sanctions will be opposed by people who were benefiting by selling car tires.

American sanctions did not work after Pokharan 2 because American companies wanted to sell their products to India. Similarly, India's sanctions will not work because ...

Nothing is guaranteed to work. No solution can be suggested that is perfectly good. The best we can hope for is to throw the Paki system off balance and make it less predictable for them and hopefully guide things in a direction we prefer. That is about as far as we can go.

The American failure with India is a perfect example of why American sanctions failed on Cuba, NoKo and Iran and will also fail with Pakistan. One of my major rants in the last thread was the burqa of lies we were hiding under by which we imagined that the US was somehow being very effective in Pakistan while India was being ineffective. Ultimately nothing is very effective against Pakistan. Nothing can be effective against 175 million people. Even their own (so called) government is ineffective. Everything is haywire. Everything is chaotic and unpredictable beyond small steps and short time spans.

Solutions, or the lack of solutions become more evident to us if we do not fool ourselves into thinking that anyone is "effective" in controlling Pakistan's course.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Aug 2011 07:47

krisna wrote:U.S. to establish consulate in Pakistan's Balochistan not allowed

Why not work to make Balochistan free? They will allow a US consulate in every village if Unkil wants..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 07:50

gakakkad wrote: I cant imagine eating rice made in TSP.

That is the same rigidity that Pakistan shows towards India effectively making Pakistan's game India's game. In the meantime all my NRI relatives and friends in the UK, Germany and the US still buy or find Pakistani basmati and Paki T shirts in thie shops and find Pakistan made surgical instruments (basic low tech stuff like kidney trays) in their hospitals.

We are tying ourselves up to Pakistan's game and the rest of the world does not give a flying fu( other than to occasionally say how IndiaPakistan are arch rivals.

Pakistan has successfully inserted itself into India psyche as India's alter ego. We have the option of breaking away and doing something else. but we are too fixated with doing a tit for tat game with them - which is exactly what they wanted in the first place.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Aug 2011 07:52

And we watch Dawood-funded Bollywood movies!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 07:52

Suppiah wrote:
krisna wrote:U.S. to establish consulate in Pakistan's Balochistan not allowed
Why not work to make Balochistan free? They will allow a US consulate in every village if Unkil wants..

The US, that is unable to supply its own soldiers or even fight the Taliban without begging the Paki army for cooperation will never manage this. they will not even bleat about the possibility for fear of upsetting the Pakis.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Aug 2011 07:57

the US is so weak vis-a-vis Pakistan that it needs India to take a tough stance with Pakis inorder for Americans to mend their relationship with Pakistan. This has now become the established pattern. This has now descended into a zero-sum game for India especially after Mohini has gone the extra mile in alienating Iran at the US behest. Regionally we are zero.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Aug 2011 08:04

Shiv saar my basic idea is not hatred or ideology driven . It is logic driven. When in Khanland I am careful not to buy Paki products . But I don't mind buying from a Patel brothers franchise selling Indian goods that is run by a Paki staff. My basic idea is to further squeeze the paki's economically . India is the only country that can support Pakistan economically .

As far a surgical instruments is concerned , forget Khanland , once upon a time even my dads hospital in Gujarat had stainless steel instruments which were made in Pakistan. (circa 1995) I think their surgical instrument industry has died out. In unkil we usually see low tech stuff from Pandaland . May be England was a bigger market for their stuff.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Aug 2011 08:50

shiv wrote: The US, that is unable to supply its own soldiers or even fight the Taliban without begging the Paki army for cooperation will never manage this. they will not even bleat about the possibility for fear of upsetting the Pakis.

Unkil is operating under multiple constraints...let us keep that in mind..the biggest constraint of all, bleeding heart constraint. Plus $$ constraint (budget cuts, weak economy), bandwidth constraint (running 2 wars + one bombing campaign), priority constraint (keeping Iran and its poodles like Syria in check to help the joos) and so on...

Wish we had a GOI that would strike a deal with them to outsource Afpak to us for $25b a year plus nuclear cover on call.....that would be far far cheaper for Unkil..

dreaming onlee..

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 Aug 2011 08:51

Canadian experience made difference in my life
Trips to Pakistan remind a young woman with roots there what it means to have been brought up in this country. A rapette with a Canadian vija!

When I was a young child and we went to Karachi, I stayed in a privileged environment, living in a home with more than the basic necessities of life. As soon as I stepped out of my sheltered environment, however, the smell and sight of the poverty of the people, and of the nation as a whole, surrounded me everywhere I went.

As I grew older, my visits to Pakistan became less frequent and more limiting. The political situation became progressively less stable. The streets became less safe. Among the beggars, so many now are women

As much as I love my heritage, travelling to Pakistan reminds me of how fortunate I have been to have had a normal childhood in Montreal, and how grateful I am to have grown up in Canada.

Pakistan is now bordering on self-destruction and instability, and my awareness and fears of all the dangers facing the country has increased.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Aug 2011 08:54

Guys, on my drive back home from work, I was listening to this NPR/BBC report on budget deal, in particular cutting foreign aid.

Nothing profound, but the part about TSP caught my attention. One tea party member's claim was that US aid fuels regional conflicts instead of solving them as US claims, and the example of TSP was given. I was hoping he would say something about how TSPA uses that US aid to torment democratic India, but instead they had this opposing viewpoint who said that US gives aid to TSP not because its leaders are the good guys, but because they don't want TSP, a nuke-armed country to collapse. Once again I was hoping the host would ask so what if TSP govt collapses, but that was it.

My question remains: If the simple act of cutting aid to TSP will result in its collpase then why not go for that option, and why is preservation of TSP govt in US interests? I know the standard answer state dept types will give is that nukes will fall iin the hand of Islamic extremists, but is that the real reason? We on BR know the answer, but no US reporter will dwell on this question in detail.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 08:58

Kakkadji the Pakistani surgical instrument business is far from dead. It is not large and it is not unique enough to be a monopoly that's all. Simple economics dictates people's choices.

Your life makes it easy for you to ignore Pakistani products. A farmer growing tomatoes in India just across the Pakistani border is faced with a dilemma if there is a bumper crop of tomatoes and the prices crash to Rs 2 per kilo as they have done. Does he just let his unsold tomatoes rot or sell them across the border to a market that may be willing to buy them? Every year we read about onions or other commodities which are in short supply or in a state of oversupply on one side of the border. Local trade makes sense for short-lived perishables that would otherwise require refrigeration and transport to export them 5000 km while they could be sold 50 km away. With a border that extends several thousand km there are hundreds of thousands of Indians living in close proximity to Pakistanis. The relationship has been one of war where the border people of India have suffered. But if there is no war, what argument can we make for not helping those border peoples of India make a better living selling their produce?

Sitiing in Bangalore, Kerala I can take the attitude that Pakistan should be nuked. No skin off my balls. The fallout won't touch me. I can then accuse people in the border areas of Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat for not being patriotic enough and complaining that they might suffer from fallout of Indian nukes on Pakistan in Indian border states. The people of those states can temporarily move out to other states no? In the name of patriotism. Or even nationalism (

)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2011 09:16

Suppiah wrote: Wish we had a GOI that would strike a deal with them to outsource Afpak to us for $25b a year plus nuclear cover on call.....that would be far far cheaper for Unkil..

dreaming onlee..

Good thing that's dreaming. The US would love that and that would be the worst possible thing for Indians- i.e GoI agreeing look after the US's interests in exchange for money being paid to GoI.

That is the Pakistan story. How nice it would be if India did a Pakistan for the US and agreed to do the US's job for money. And to hell with them smelly injuns. "Nuclear cover" is the biggest con job ever. If we get nuked tomorrow thinking that the US is giving us cover it would not help us whether or not the US nuked anyone for us in return.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Aug 2011 09:20

RajeshA wrote:The inflation in Pakistan is starting to bite the population badly, and basically importing all the stuff from India is the easiest way to push down the prices.

Pakistan has no other alternative than allowing Indian products to come in.

The less Pakistanis have to spend on basic necessities that need to be imported, the more money the population has for buying all that what is produced in Pakistan itself. That allows more money with the population to buy hoarded wheat, rice and sugar.

Another reason, they may be going for an MFN with India may be because of the situation in Karachi.

Karachi has been in a state of anarchy, and Karachi may be coming up short in its function as the main commercial port of Pakistan. That means even the goods re-exported from Dubai or even Chinese goods may not be getting through to Pakistan. Some similarity to NATO supplies not getting through to Afghanistan!

An MFN with India would mean, that Karachi would not be able to strangle Pakjab, as Pakistan would be getting a lot more goods over Wagah itself. So in fact Pakistan may be creating its own version of Northern Distribution Network

similar to how USA negotiated a deal with Russia.

Another thing would be that China may have persuaded Pakistan to open up trade with India, as both Karachi and Karakoram being blocked, even Chinese goods cannot get through, and with a trade opening to India, the Chinese may be able to sell their goods through Wagah as well. A bit far fetched theory here with the Chinese....

It may also be a political tool to cut down MQM in size, which controls Karachi.

dada · Post by **dada** » 06 Aug 2011 09:33

See Pakistan as a System positioned within a Larger System
There is NO need to destroy Pakistan
But the Indian Strategy should focus on Making Pakistan Irrelevant in the Larger System
Future War with Pakistan must focus on acquiring land access to CA thru Kashmir/Afghanistan
One of our Former Army Chief is said to be doing PhD on the Strategic Wakan Corridor
This is the Right Way to go ....

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Aug 2011 09:38

X-Posting from "Managing Pakistan's failure" Thread

Pakistan is basically an agricultural country. The Zamindars are those with the large agricultural lands. India is a country with a respectable industrial base and industrializing fast. We also have much poverty. At a time when we are growing very quickly, there is bound to be some associated inflation, and this inflation is going to start biting our poor badly. So what we need is to keep food prices down. If we only stick with agricultural produce in India, the prices would stay high. So we should consider an FTA with Pakistan, which allows us to import their agricultural produce. If we import their agricultural produce, their inflation will rise even more strongly leading to a worsening of the condition in an already poor land.

Now one may say, that if they start earning money off India, their purchasing power may increase. Yes and Not Necessarily. Feudalism in Pakistan takes care that there is a small layer of rich Zamindars sitting on top a pig pile of poor serfs. The poor workers don't really get that much. So at that level, the trickle down theory doesn't work that well. Secondly Zamindars pay no taxes to the state, which means the money they earn would not be ploughed into the system to make life for Pakistanis better. Zamindars however get more money to pay for other services from local service providers. True, but these services would mostly be of the "security kind". As far as products is concerned, India can see to it that the Zamindars spend most of the money they earn again on Indian products or in their tourism in India itself (of course under surveillance, that they do not do any mischief). So the money we give to the Zamindars comes back to India.

This will allow India to use Punjab and Sindh as a bread-basket for India itself keeping our inflation low while pushing up the inflation in Pakistan, and thus contributing to its own further collapse.

So India buying agricultural produce from Pakistan is a good thing, especially if are able to sell them finished products and Indian travel experience to suck back the money.

And it is good if the Zamindars employ a bigger security detail for themselves, because since the feudals are dependent on their trade with India, they have a vested interest that relations remain good and do not break off, so they would not want to share their money with those who plant bombs in India if they can help it, so a big a security force of their own helps them resist pressure to pay to Jihadi groups. Of course one cannot discount that Zamindars would not be paying Jihadis at all. But even there, through such payments Zamindars may be able to bring down their blood lust to attack targets across the border in India. Moreover the private army of these feudals can be indirectly used by India as well for our operations in Pakistan through the Zamindars.

India would also be able to cultivate an influential lobby in Pakistan.

However as far as industrial produce is concerned, India should try to put up non-tariff barriers to dissuade that. We don't want to help Pakistanis with that.

Secondly India should not hesitate to invest in mining in Pakistan. Some general here or there can get a fat commission, and he will deposit it somewhere in Switzerland, and the money will not really go into the Pakistani treasury, keeping Pakistan poor and on the precipice.

An MFN Status for India would allow to flood the Pakistani market with products made in India. This would shift the economy more towards trade, and less towards industrial production, which is good.

We just need to ensure that no industry really comes up in Pakistan. Low educational standards, little power generation, bad infrastructure, and red tape, and most importantly insecurity can ensure all that.

Summary: We trade with Pakistan. Through trade we both suck off agricultural produce of Pakistan increasing inflation there as well as finish off any industry in Pakistan. We increase our market share of goods in Pakistan and keep our inflation of food stuffs down in India. We also gain valuable influence.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Aug 2011 10:06

^^^ @ Rajesh, Shiv et al I get your perspective and I change my viewpoint on buying TSP agro products. India should import agro goods from Pakistan, as it can help us further squeeze them diplomatically as Rajesh saar explained. But in Khanland I will not buy TSP goods as it helps the RAPE class.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 06 Aug 2011 10:28

shiv wrote: Nothing is guaranteed to work. No solution can be suggested that is perfectly good. The best we can hope for is to throw the Paki system off balance and make it less predictable for them and hopefully guide things in a direction we prefer. That is about as far as we can go.

The American failure with India is a perfect example of why American sanctions failed on Cuba, NoKo and Iran and will also fail with Pakistan. One of my major rants in the last thread was the burqa of lies we were hiding under by which we imagined that the US was somehow being very effective in Pakistan while India was being ineffective. Ultimately nothing is very effective against Pakistan. Nothing can be effective against 175 million people. Even their own (so called) government is ineffective. Everything is haywire. Everything is chaotic and unpredictable beyond small steps and short time spans.

Solutions, or the lack of solutions become more evident to us if we do not fool ourselves into thinking that anyone is "effective" in controlling Pakistan's course.

Sir,

I am shocked at the extreme flaws in your logic.

You will deny you are saying this, but your post above makes it very clear that you are saying this without saying it, which is that

1. India has been inadequetly ineffective against Pak.

2. US has been inadequetly ineffective against Pak.

3. Therefore, the conclusion is
a) that US and India are equally ineffective against Pak
b) nothing and no one can be effective against Pak
c) best anyone can do is periodicaly throw some interference and take some small and measured steps to keep them off balanced
d) let us as Indians get out of this "dhimmi" thinking that we are such weaklings because now it has been proven that even the US wasnt able to fix Pak.

I think, Pak got real lucky that Indians acted the way they did for 65 years after 47 and continue to do so. Pak got lucky again in last ten years, in the way US behaved vis-a-vis Pak, politically by giving them aid and coddling them rather then kicking them hard. Does not mean that a better policy by India in the past and US in the recent past would not have "fixed" Pak. Does not mean that a better policy in the future by either will not "fix" the Pak problem for good.

There is nothing infallible about these 175 million people. Larger empires have fallen like a house of cards. Doesnt mean you can fell them by acting stupid.