Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Cain Marko]

* 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons
* 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons
* 13+ Su-30MKI squadrons
* 2 Rafale F3R(I) squadrons

And that is it. That is around 26 squadrons. The Indian Air Force will be at parity with the Pakistan Air Force.

My guess is that the Rafale will just be entering service. They will probably add more mk1a and quite likely 2-3 fifth Gen fighter sqds, pakfa (or remote possibility of f35)....

[bala]

On this import business of jets for air forces: It is safe to say most Air forces in the world are imported maal craft. Only the US and Russia can claim their own. The chinese ripped of Soviet/Russian maal and also the US maal but they make it on their own, don't know whether they work or not in actual warfare. India is also an imported maal air force. Only the Tejas is a partial breakthrough in terms of airframe, but the engine is imported. The SU-30MKI is a different version than the Russian one. India is slowly getting into armaments, radar, detectors and so on. Without an engine India is still straddling the import label.

[Rakesh]

My guess is that the Rafale will just be entering service. They will probably add more mk1a and quite likely 2-3 fifth Gen fighters, pakfa (or remote possibility of f35)....

As per Defence Secretary, the first batch is expected to arrive in 3.5 years from contract signature. That puts it at 2029/2030. The first batch is from the 18 flyaway aircraft. But that timeline will only hold if a contract is signed this year. The more interesting data point would be when the first Indian-assembled Rafale will be delivered to the IAF and how many airframes will the Indian line deliver annually.

Below is the order history from previous deliveries/orders of the Rafale to India;

a) 28 Rafale C + 8 Rafale B for the Indian Air Force: Deal signed in Sept 2016. Ceremonial handover occurred on 08 Oct 2019 at Merignac, France. The first batch of five aircraft arrived at Ambala AFS in July 2020. The 36th aircraft was supposed to arrive in India by Sept 2022, but arrived by Dec 2022. Likely due to COVID/supplier chain issues.

b) 22 Rafale M + 4 Rafale B for the Indian Navy: Deal signed in April 2025. Hand over to the Indian Navy is expected in 2028 (confirmed by Defence Secretary today) and first batch is expected to arrive in India in 2029 as per Admiral Dinesh Tripathi.

If this track record is maintained, then the timeline of 3.5 years is more or less aligns with the above. The Su-57 is coming. Lots of rona-dhona will happen, but that is par for the course.

F-35 is unlikely, as the IAF is doubling down on the S-400 ---> viewtopic.php?p=2672192#p2672192

[uddu]

On this import business of jets for air forces: It is safe to say most Air forces in the world are imported maal craft. Only the US and Russia can claim their own. The chinese ripped of Soviet/Russian maal and also the US maal but they make it on their own, don't know whether they work or not in actual warfare. India is also an imported maal air force. Only the Tejas is a partial breakthrough in terms of airframe, but the engine is imported. The SU-30MKI is a different version than the Russian one. India is slowly getting into armaments, radar, detectors and so on. Without an engine India is still straddling the import label.

You can add the French to the list. In their fighter arsenel, however expensive their Rafale, they will not go for a Tejas with French engine to increase their squadron numbers or cut down on cost. They will not look for AMCA to be inducted in their force, but will put their money into their own equipment. They will not look to have their AESA replaced with Virupaksha or place orders for Astra MK2 Or Gandiva missiles to be fitted on their Rafael for superiority. But will happily take your money to fit them on Rafale for your use. That's what makes them independent even though being a small nation.

[bala]

You can add the French to the list.

Right, the french are pretty independent too. However they are part of NATO which is a wing of the US effectively.

[uddu]

...

Sirji, no one said they are all the F-16 are one block. So if they are different blocks what's the problem with Tejas MK1A having a MK1B, C, etc Not saying that for quick numbers, you need to go for MK1B. Take the MK1A with Uttam and manufacture another 96 lot on another line. followed by 96 lot more of MK1B variant for which work can begin once the first lot issues are solved.
No one stated MK1A and MK2 are same. The same process can continue with MK2 as well. Its variants as well all can be mass manufactured when it arrives as well until AMCA comes into picture.
What is wrong with MK1A firepower? Do it has better firepower than Mirage and Mig-29 as of now? And what was the need to bring in even the Mig-21 into equation? That's a mindset change that is needed. In terms of technology and the kind of sensors and weapons that it carries, can't MK1A beat the Rafale? It also comes with the refueling probe. It's limitations indeed because of it's smaller size are as you mentioned, the weapon carrying load and range limitations. Setting aside that, if an Uttam radar equipped Tejas MK1A go against a Rafale in BVRAAM engagement who will win? This is debatable, but in a completely changed scenario of airwarfare when even Geran drones armed with AAM's are able to down F-16's. Armed with the right missile, Astra MK2 and UTTAM radar, i am sure, Tejas will be big threat to Rafale.

More internal fuel in Rafale is needed for it to power its dual engines and to carry the weapon load right, not that it is a good fighter for the reason it can carry more fuel. It's forced to carry more fuel. Is a dual engine fighter more efficient in fuel efficiency? Operating costs? Acquisition costs? Fuel Costs? What if you can acquire more MK1A fighters in place of one Rafale. I will list out the advantages.
Will be able to launch more MK1A's instead of limited Rafale. It may be able to carry similar or even more amount of weapons combined. It will be able to engage multiple targets at multiple locations for the same amount you invest in Rafale. Similar number of losses in a war will be cheaper and also easier to replace than Rafale. Will be able to integrate anything and everything including weapons and radars other than Brahmos kind of weapons. Networked operations with Su-30 MKI's. Various upcoming technologies like MUM-T can be integrated much more easily. Ability to fly with Drones carrying weapons will remove the so called weapon load capability issues.
Disadvantage being
As you mentioned reach or range and patrol duties etc, need to be done with multiple MK1A's extended over time instead of one Rafale. Can't carry heavier weaponry.

Now Coming to MK2's these weapon load carrying margin between both reduces further.

Can we go without inducting Rafale's in the 114 NUBMERS but on a smaller scale? ABSOLUTELY WE CAN, if there is a will. And yes, this also need the Amriki GE to start delivering their engines or handover everything on a platter tot he French. This is the political side of things and is a completely different discussion altogether.

Would also like to clarify that I am not against Rafale as a fighter. I want to mass production of India's own fighter aircraft's within India and initiative taken by the IAF themselves to go in incrementally ensuring real Atmanirbharta. Not Atmanirbharta on Paper while importing from France. There was a video of Chakra channel by Sandeep of Interview with the founder of UCSV. He talks about Grit. Probably it's not just vision, plans but also little bit of Grit sustained over decades that will help IAF to field a true Atmanirbhar AF.

Also Rakeshji, no need to get upset with my point of view. Neither I am someone who decides on Rafale order nor I can stop it. So Please chill and lets keep supporting the indigenous efforts. Whatever else happens. Let it..but at sometimes we could have a discussion here of various options etc. That's all Sirji.

[uddu]

Above is one aspect. Then there is another huge lot of issues with Engines. Only Hoping that IAF comes forward like the IN just went with the indigenous engines for warships, they also take up the Kaveri and start attempting how with the current technology we could have an engine that can fly on MK1A.

[bala]

The IAF and Navy together have ordered more than 150 rafales. With this number, India could have placed an initial order with the French at lower costs and insisted on local manufacture within India. These piecemeal orders are killing bargaining power and also hike up the costs. I sometimes wonder what the leadership at MOD is doing in terms of thinking through things.

Just another thought: would added Su-30MKI numbers have done the same job as Rafales. The Su-30MKI (half indigenous) is a beast compared to Rafale.

[Manish_Sharma]

https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/20225 ... 74551?s=20
Vivek Krishnan wrote:

I believe we have mortgaged our future to the French MIC. The future is anybody’s guess but in an era of conflict, we are most likely giving up on being relevant. @JA_Maolankar
makes the best arguments here. For posterity’s sake, wish we change

He quotes this thread:
↓
https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/20225 ... 25737?s=20

Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (retd) raises queries:
Follow ups I wish you had asked @VishnuNDTV
04:15 so has आत्मनिर्भरता been postponed indefinitely? 05:15 isn’t that the exact definition of a “generational” change viz. Some specific characteristics which provide insurmountable advantage (else it’s an incremental not gen change)

06:15> so what are the “stealth countering” capabilities that the Rafale uniquely provides? Networks/weapons options - aren’t both of these “weaknesses” of the Rafale currently covered only by Dassault’s “promises” of continuing good faith in perpetuity?

08:00 > so would we be locked in to a French MUMT ecosystem or be able to deploy an indigenous one? Or would the Rafale fall behind while the indigenous laggards get a MUMT leg up?

09:45> how does one negotiate when the vendor has already been selected? What is the negotiation strategy-leverage? 11:00 how will “Indian quality” suddenly become acceptable or rather why wasn’t it possible earlier in the MMRCA case?

10:23 how will it not “scuttle” when they were not cleared earlier due to “unaffordable ” costs (definitely TEDBF). Now after sticker shock, how will they not! How does it fit into the “business model” of defending this nation? Or is it whoever raids the wallet first gets fed

…Will the IAF work as hard at demanding funding for the currently unfunded आत्मनिर्भर programmes.
13:00 what happens to the indigenous eco-system and HALs LCA vendors - surely they won’t be let into the Rafale eco-system by edging out the French vendor eco-system?

Guys, this is not an angry thread. I’m sure I would have enjoyed flying the Rafale as much as either of them (one’s a Coursemate and the other my mentor/taught me how to fly in the 1st place!) Merely suggestions for follow up

QUESTION ARE RAISED ON Vishnu Som Video MARKED BY Minute timing: https://x.com/ndtv/status/2022380326182600855?s=20

[Rakesh]

Sirji, no one said they are all the F-16 are one block. So if they are different blocks what's the problem with Tejas MK1A having a MK1B, C, etc Not saying that for quick numbers, you need to go for MK1B. Take the MK1A with Uttam and manufacture another 96 lot on another line. followed by 96 lot more of MK1B variant for which work can begin once the first lot issues are solved. No one stated MK1A and MK2 are same. The same process can continue with MK2 as well. Its variants as well all can be mass manufactured when it arrives as well until AMCA comes into picture.

As per your post....the USAF has 675 F-16s. They also have 350-400+ F-15s plus ~ 180 F-22s plus 500 F-35s. That is anywhere from 1,700 - 1,755 combat aircraft. But also realise that the USAF - like her sister services - is a global expeditionary force. They deploy their military around the world. They need those numbers (and more!) to cement their military superpower status.

The Indian Air Force has not had such a doctrine in the past or in the present. You are putting out numbers without taking into account India's air power doctrine or the IAF's ORBAT for the future. It does not make sense to produce any more Tejas Mk1As in the next decade, because the Tejas Mk2 will be there. What goal is served in producing any more Tejas Mk1As when the Tejas Mk2 can do every mission with greater effectiveness?

Just focusing on numbers alone, is not a magic pill. Just churning out aircraft will not be enough. If you re-open the line for the MiG-21bis and upgrade them all to Bisons, will you get the capability that is needed in the 2030s? The answer to that is a clear NO. That is the point. It is not an anti-Atmanirbhar Bharat conspiracy, but the mission requirements that the IAF will be undertaking in the next decade.

If additional Mk1As were the answer to the issue, then let us do this ---> retire all the Su-30MKIs in service and then replace them with Tejas Mk1As. You said 96 + 96 Mk1As. I say do a production of 272 additional airframes (over the 180 on order now) as a one-to-one replacement of the entire Rambha fleet. But can the Mk1A undertake the same missions that the Su-30MKI does? It has a far smaller internal fuel capacity. It has a much smaller payload capacity. And post the SS upgrade, the upgraded Rambha's AESA (Indian in origin) will be more powerful than the AESA in the Mk1A.

And by all means, upgrade the 180 Mk1As to Mk1B, C, D, E, F, G, etc. Go all the way to the last alphabet in the English language if needed. The Tejas - as we know today - was designed to replace the large number of MiG-21s in service. The design and dimensions of Tejas were clearly spelled out during the planning & developmental stage and the Mk1A is infinitely better than the MiG-21 and her last variant (Bison). However Mk1A will never be better than the Mk2. No amount of engineering wizardry we do on Mk1A will change that fact.

Why do you think the Mk2 even exists? Because it will be exponentially more capable than the Mk1A and there is a clear requirement from Air HQ for the aircraft. From the Indian Air Force's own mouth, they want the Mk2 to replace the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 fleet. It will be a generational leap over the Baaz and the Vajra. When a fleet is replaced, it is not just the numbers but also increasing the firepower capability.

Ouragan (1953) ---> Mystere (1957) ---> Mirage 2000 (1985) ---> Rafale (2020). All four Dassault aircraft have served in the IAF. Please find out how the IAF's firepower capability increased with each new aircraft that entered service.

What is wrong with MK1A firepower? Do it has better firepower than Mirage and Mig-29 as of now? And what was the need to bring in even the Mig-21 into equation? That's a mindset change that is needed. In terms of technology and the kind of sensors and weapons that it carries, can't MK1A beat the Rafale? It also comes with the refueling probe. It's limitations indeed because of it's smaller size are as you mentioned, the weapon carrying load and range limitations. Setting aside that, if an Uttam radar equipped Tejas MK1A go against a Rafale in BVRAAM engagement who will win? This is debatable, but in a completely changed scenario of airwarfare when even Geran drones armed with AAM's are able to down F-16's. Armed with the right missile, Astra MK2 and UTTAM radar, i am sure, Tejas will be big threat to Rafale.

• Will Mk2 have better firepower and greater payload capability that Mk1A?
• In terms of technology and the kind of sensors and weapons that it carries, Mk2 can beat the Mk1A no?
• Mk2 also comes with refueling probe and has a greater internal fuel capacity than the Mk1A.
• If an upgraded Uttam radar equipped Tejas Mk2 goes against an Uttam radar equipped Tejas Mk1A in BVRAAM engagement, who will win?
• Armed with the right missile (Gandiva) and upgraded Uttam radar, I am 100% confident, that Mk2 will be a huge threat to Mk1A.

I hope you can now see the fallacy in your argument. It is admirable to support self reliance and that is most definitely required for India, especially post the Russia-Ukraine conflict. However, rather than pointing fingers at Rafale, Dassault, France, Macron or anything or anyone else...we need to look inward and ask why do we not have our own low-bypass turbofan? We are about to spend US $35 billion on 114 Rafales and are waiting for bread crumbs from GE to power our homegrown fighter.

And what is even worse is that we want to do multiple production tranches of different Tejas variants (180 Mk1A + 200 Mk2s), TEDBF, ORCA and even AMCA all with GE-origin turbofans. And we are nonchalantly cool about that fact. It is like as if amnesia has taken hold and Unkil's behaviour in the 21st century towards India has been one of a benevolent and all-loving divine power, that shoots out rays of love from her chest at the mere mention of the name India. Always remember this truth ---> America will always be hostile to the rise of a resurgent & nationalistic India. The rise of the Dragon is more than enough for the Eagle to handle. The Elephant - in her deep slumber - is a lot better for the Eagle to manage and control.

It was Ashley Tellis, the famed (Indian-origin-and-now-US-citizen) geopolitical analyst who once said, "India's rise *MUST* be managed."

You are worried about 114 Rafales? I am worried about 180 Tejas Mk1As + 200 Tejas Mk2s + 40 AMCA Mk1s all with GE turbofans. Where is the focus? No wonder we are in this sordid mess. Stop focusing on the aircraft. Focus on the engine. Fix the engine and everything else (Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, ORCA, AMCA, etc) will flow from it. You saw that picture of 8 Mk1As sitting on the tarmac without no engines. What use is the Uttam AESA, Astra Mk2, refueling probe, etc of the Mk1A without her engine? Those eight airframes are nothing more than expensive paperweights. It makes ample sense to keep India dependent on GE for the Tejas fleet. If we continue with that circus, we are doing so to our own detriment.

More internal fuel in Rafale is needed for it to power its dual engines and to carry the weapon load right, not that it is a good fighter for the reason it can carry more fuel. It's forced to carry more fuel. Is a dual engine fighter more efficient in fuel efficiency? Operating costs? Acquisition costs? Fuel Costs?

But yet you are totally okay with twin engine Su-30MKI doing networked operations with Tejas Mk1A? Operating costs? Fuel Costs?

TEDBF, ORCA, AMCA are also all twin engine fighters. Operating costs? Fuel Costs?

What if you can acquire more MK1A fighters in place of one Rafale. I will list out the advantages. Will be able to launch more MK1A's instead of limited Rafale. It may be able to carry similar or even more amount of weapons combined.

How can Mk1A carry similar or more amount of weapons than Rafale?

• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Tejas Mk1A: 3,910 kg (8,620 lbs)

• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Rafale: 9,500 kg (21,000 lbs)

Come on Saar!

It will be able to engage multiple targets at multiple locations for the same amount you invest in Rafale. Similar number of losses in a war will be cheaper and also easier to replace than Rafale. Will be able to integrate anything and everything including weapons and radars other than Brahmos kind of weapons. Networked operations with Su-30 MKI's. Various upcoming technologies like MUM-T can be integrated much more easily. Ability to fly with Drones carrying weapons will remove the so called weapon load capability issues. Disadvantage being. As you mentioned reach or range and patrol duties etc, need to be done with multiple MK1A's extended over time instead of one Rafale. Can't carry heavier weaponry.

• Tejas Mk2 will be able to integrate anything & everything including weapons and radars better than Mk1A. Even BrahMos-NG.
• Tejas Mk2 will also be able to do networked operations with Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1A
• Tejas Mk2 will also be able to integrate upcoming technologies like MUM-T.
• Tejas Mk2 will also be able to fly with drones, carrying weapons and will remove the so-called weapon load capability issues.

Tejas Mk2 is better than the Tejas Mk1A.

Now Coming to MK2's these weapon load carrying margin between both reduces further.

The margins are not even in the same ballpark!

• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Tejas Mk1A: 3,910 kg (8,620 lbs)
• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Tejas Mk2: 6,500 kg (14,330 lbs)
• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Rafale: 9,500 kg (21,000 lbs)

Can we go without inducting Rafale's in the 114 NUBMERS but on a smaller scale? ABSOLUTELY WE CAN, if there is a will.

The math disagrees with you, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Facts are not even remotely concerned about our feelings.

And yes, this also need the Amriki GE to start delivering their engines or handover everything on a platter tot he French. This is the political side of things and is a completely different discussion altogether.

The political side of things is exactly the discussion that needs to happen.

The geopolitical relationship between the United States and India has a direct correlation to all US-origin hardware that India acquires. You cannot brush that under the carpet or bury your head in a sand like an ostrich and assume that issue is non existent. You need to broaden your horizon beyond just aircraft and examine the issue from a geopolitical angle as well.

The now defunct Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) between the US and India ended up with GE only wanting to know - how far along the totem pole of technology - that GTRE was at in relation to the Kaveri. There was never any intention (and still is) from GE to transfer any engine technology to India. Even the much touted F414 assembly in India, is coming with 80% of in transfer of production transfer. The actual hot section of the F414 will still remain with GE. And GE is getting takleef even handing over than 80%. A deal that was announced in 2022, has still to be signed in 2026.

Would also like to clarify that I am not against Rafale as a fighter. I want to mass production of India's own fighter aircraft's within India and initiative taken by the IAF themselves to go in incrementally ensuring real Atmanirbharta. Not Atmanirbharta on Paper while importing from France. There was a video of Chakra channel by Sandeep of Interview with the founder of UCSV. He talks about Grit. Probably it's not just vision, plans but also little bit of Grit sustained over decades that will help IAF to field a true Atmanirbhar AF.

Grit has to transition to investment. Without that it is meaningless.

Singing Hum Honge Kamyab Ek Din is not going to work without funding.

Money Talks. Cough up the Cash. Invest in the infrastructure required to complete the Kaveri.

Also Rakeshji, no need to get upset with my point of view. Neither I am someone who decides on Rafale order nor I can stop it. So Please chill and lets keep supporting the indigenous efforts. Whatever else happens. Let it..but at sometimes we could have a discussion here of various options etc. That's all Sirji.

I am not upset at all uddu-ji

I would not be overly concerned about this deal. This whole deal could collapse during negotiations or even at the CCS stage. DAC approval is not a signed contract.

[Rakesh]

Above is one aspect. Then there is another huge lot of issues with Engines. Only hoping that IAF comes forward like the IN just went with the indigenous engines for warships, they also take up the Kaveri and start attempting how with the current technology we could have an engine that can fly on MK1A.

The last time I checked the Govt supersedes the services. Does the PM salute the Air Chief first or is it the other way around?

As per the constitution, the Govt exerts civilian control over the military. Why to hope on the air force, navy and army? Govt has to crack the whip.

[Rakesh]

The IAF and Navy together have ordered more than 150 rafales. With this number, India could have placed an initial order with the French at lower costs and insisted on local manufacture within India. These piecemeal orders are killing bargaining power and also hike up the costs. I sometimes wonder what the leadership at MOD is doing in terms of thinking through things.

Just another thought: would added Su-30MKI numbers have done the same job as Rafales. The Su-30MKI (half indigenous) is a beast compared to Rafale.

Navy and Air Force Rafales are priced differently even for the French.

Navy and Air Forces - not just in India, but the world over - never see eye to eye on naval air power. Air Force officers scoff at aircraft carriers and Navy officers look at air bases as immovable targets. Then you have submariners who laugh at both sides

The Air Force would have never allowed the Navy (and vice versa) to get co-joined with "their" Rafale deal. Welcome to inter service rivalry.

However local manufacture of the second batch of Navy Rafales will happen on the line in India. That is coming.

[Rakesh]

Mao Sir - as always - raises excellent points. My reply to some of his questions.

Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (retd) raises queries:
09:45> how does one negotiate when the vendor has already been selected? What is the negotiation strategy-leverage? 11:00 how will “Indian quality” suddenly become acceptable or rather why wasn’t it possible earlier in the MMRCA case?

Quality of Rafales built in India will be overseen by Dassault.

DIAL (Dassault India Aviation Limited) is a Dassault subsidiary.

The Indian line will serve not just customers of the IAF and IN, but international ones as well. The line @ Merignac, France is overflowing with orders and Dassault is not interested in paying penalties for delayed deliveries. They need a second line, but Dassault does not want to pay for it. They need someone else to pay for that line. Enter India And since Dassault oversees DIAL, it is in their interest to ensure that every Rafale assembled in India is of the same quality as the one made at Merignac.

There are no unions to deal with at DIAL. And thank goodness for that.

10:23 how will it not “scuttle” when they were not cleared earlier due to “unaffordable ” costs (definitely TEDBF). Now after sticker shock, how will they not! How does it fit into the “business model” of defending this nation? Or is it whoever raids the wallet first gets fed

TEDBF - in its current form - is done. The first batch of Rafale Ms for the Indian Navy drove the dagger into the heart of the TEDBF and the second (upcoming) batch will pull the heart out and squash it.

The Navy Chief recently said that TEDBF is still ongoing, but that is a wordplay. It will be a naval variant of the AMCA.

[Manish_P]

Thank you Admiral sir for bringing about a balance in the force. Truly you must be the chosen one.

[Rakesh]

Thank you Admiral sir for bringing about a balance in the force. Truly you must be the chosen one.

[bala]

Navy and Air Force Rafales are priced differently even for the French.

Navy and Air Forces - not just in India, but the world over - never see eye to eye on naval air power.

Admiral Saar, even with 114 + 36 that justifies a local line by Dassault in INDIA. When India bought 36, they should have negotiated for 140 or whatever and insisted on local assembly.

[Rakesh]

Admiral Saar, even with 114 + 36 that justifies a local line by Dassault in INDIA. When India bought 36, they should have negotiated for 140 or whatever and insisted on local assembly.

I do understand what you are saying.

The 36 purchase was an emergency buy. Now one argue how real of an emergency it was, but there was no discussion on a follow on order with the 36.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Manish_P]

...
The 36 purchase was an emergency buy. Now one argue how real of an emergency it was, but there was no discussion on a follow on order with the 36.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

The real emergency of why we seem to look at hindsight so often is that it seems we have put a mirror in front of the aiming sight of our planning gun

[uddu]

Above is one aspect. Then there is another huge lot of issues with Engines. Only hoping that IAF comes forward like the IN just went with the indigenous engines for warships, they also take up the Kaveri and start attempting how with the current technology we could have an engine that can fly on MK1A.

The last time I checked the Govt supersedes the services. Does the PM salute the Air Chief first or is it the other way around?

As per the constitution, the Govt exerts civilian control over the military. Why to hope on the air force, navy and army? Govt has to crack the whip.

Not going to happen. This govt has not even cracked Whip on Anti-nationals from the opposition. What I see is a trust in the people they entrust the task with. Even the anti-national activities of the opposition is put before the people and let them decide whether to choose the same one to power or not. May be that is the right way. A change of culture and mindset must happen from within the IAF, if they want to be an Atmanirbhar force. Can't spoonfeed Atmanirbharta.

[Rakesh]

Not going to happen. This govt has not even cracked Whip on Anti-nationals from the opposition. What I see is a trust in the people they entrust the task with. Even the anti-national activities of the opposition is put before the people and let them decide whether to choose the same one to power or not. May be that is the right way. A change of culture and mindset must happen from within the IAF, if they want to be an Atmanirbhar force. Can't spoonfeed Atmanirbharta.

If Manohar Parrikar can spoon feed Atmanirbharta to IAF via Tejas Mk1A and HTT-40, then certainly it can crack the whip.

And there are other Parrikars in India. No point in blaming the forces alone for being import dependent, if their civilian master rubber stamps everything they ask for.

The buck stops at the Govt’s desk. Atmanirbharta is the Govt’s policy. Walk the Talk.

[bkswarti]

Sorry, can someone explain to me how serious is this news of 36 additional Rafale M for the navy as part of the 114 Rafales?

Are we buying 114 Rafales or 140?

In addition to the 114 Rafale ordered, India has asked France to provide 31 Rafale Marine
https://www.latribune.fr/article/la-tri ... ale-marine
14 Feb 2026

[Rakesh]

Sorry, can someone explain to me how serious is this news of 36 additional Rafale M for then navy as part of the 114 Rafales?

Are we buying 114 Rafales or 140?

Odds are actually quite high that a follow on deal for Rafale M for the Navy will happen.

The 22 Rafale Ms are for INS Vikrant. The navy wants another batch for IAC-2, which is a follow on Vikrant Class vessel.

The original plan was for 57 MRCBF (Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighter). It was cut down to 26, due to budgetary issues. Now that a Rafale line is being established in India, the navy is pushing for another 31 airframes.

[bkswarti]

^this will essentially kill TEDBF? Is the plan to just cut TEDBF / Tejas Mk 2 and skip directly to AMCA??

[Rakesh]

^this will essentially kill TEDBF? Is the plan to just cut TEDBF / Tejas Mk 2 and skip directly to AMCA??

From a previous post of mine on this very page. Tejas Mk2 will still happen though.

TEDBF - in its current form - is done. The first batch of Rafale Ms for the Indian Navy drove the dagger into the heart of the TEDBF and the second (upcoming) batch will pull the heart out and squash it.

The Navy Chief recently said that TEDBF is still ongoing, but that is a wordplay. It will be a naval variant of the AMCA.

[bala]

Can anyone explain why Rafales are needed by IAF when the same amount of Su-30MKI can do a better job?

// i understand the need for pilots to have choice and kick the tyres/get familiar with Rafales, notwithstanding the cheese/wine parties that go hand in hand. But the Rafales are not better than the Su-30MKI which with brahmos will leave any country side completely devasted.

[bkswarti]

Can anyone explain why Rafales are needed by IAF when the same amount of Su-30MKI can do a better job?

// i understand the need for pilots to have choice and kick the tyres/get familiar with Rafales, notwithstanding the cheese/wine parties that go hand in hand. But the Rafales are not better than the Su-30MKI which with brahmos will leave any country side completely devasted.

If IAF is ordering so many with government clearing all hurdles so fast, I think it’s clear that Rafale is the reason why India had complete air dominance over Pakistani skies.

[uddu]

Not going to happen. This govt has not even cracked Whip on Anti-nationals from the opposition. What I see is a trust in the people they entrust the task with. Even the anti-national activities of the opposition is put before the people and let them decide whether to choose the same one to power or not. May be that is the right way. A change of culture and mindset must happen from within the IAF, if they want to be an Atmanirbhar force. Can't spoonfeed Atmanirbharta.

If Manohar Parrikar can spoon feed Atmanirbharta to IAF via Tejas Mk1A and HTT-40, then certainly it can crack the whip.

And there are other Parrikars in India. No point in blaming the forces alone for being import dependent, if their civilian master rubber stamps everything they ask for.

The buck stops at the Govt’s desk. Atmanirbharta is the Govt’s policy. Walk the Talk.

Rajnath Singh!=Maonhar Parikkar. I will choose Ashwini Vaishnav any day over RS if Former Air Chief R K Singh Bhadauria is not given that post. The semiconductor efforts are going very well under him and need Rajeev Chandrasekhar to replace him. The all knowing people of Thiruvananathapuram choose English Literature specialist over RC making him struck in TVM leading the party for the upcoming Assembly elections. BJP will gain in Kerala, while our defense will keep suffering. Everyone is responsible sirji. Collective effort is needed. And IAF also need to change for good.

[uddu]

Rakesh ji, U.S got Canada and Mexico as their neighbours, none of who are grabbing U.S land nor sending terrorists to kill their citizens. U.S choose British Legacy and went expeditionary. Unfortunately for us, we have hostile neighbors China and Pakistan. We don't have to be expeditonary or even the need to be superpower to induct MK1A in numbers, especially with a PLAAF+PAF+BAF (New Jihadi recruitment to the U.S camp) as our neighbours.

One major issue that need change, I will list is the very long time in upgrade/update taken up on the aircraft. There were times in the past when this was very much okay since both the Chinese and we were relying on Soviet equipment and both were importers of soviet or foreign equipment and the need for frequent upgdates/upgrades never existed, since both flew tech which were similar and it went on for decades before both choose to induct better equipment with better systems or upgrades with then available tech. In today's context this ia a very flawed process taking into consideration today's China is not an importer but Atmanirbhar Chinese AF. We need to keep updating our fighters at much more short timeframes to have the edge over adversary. This is very much possible with Tejas Mk1/A/2 and so on. It seems IAF is waiting for the legacy radar on MK1 to be utilized fully till its lifetime, while we have better UTTAM radars available. Hope IAF takes up upgrades of MK1 with Uttam radars right away. The Chinese will also be doing such upgrades much more frequently. Even the requirements need to be made with the kind of upgrades and updates that need to be done in the next 5 years rather than what can be imported after so and so years.

Can the Mig-21 Bison be fitted with Uttam AESA and Astra MK1/2? and provide the same performance as the MK1A? If yes, I will take it. It's unnecessary to compare and go back in history when we have our own fighter in the MK1A.

We know the advantage of Su-30 MKI in terms of it's load carrying capability and its long reach. Also it can be upgraded with Virupaksha and armed with Astra MK2. Waiting for the Super Sukhoi upgrade to happen. I will take 272 Tejas MK1A over Mithai any day and replace the Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s and Jaguars anyday. Though would ask for a GaN based Uttam be provided as part of the package. I will call it Tejas MK1B. Then upgrade both MK1/A with the B standard if the upgrade of MK1 has not happened to MK1A.

Of Courese Rakesh ji, MK1/A and MK2 being our own fighters build with our own technology will be needed in numbers. I will not choose one over the other. What I suggest is the mass manufacturing of MK1A till the MK2 is certified. Once that's done the same way as MK1A is manufactured, MK2 takes is place until the AMCA comes. I would want the same for AMCA+ORCA+TEDBF. Everyone of them kept updated every 5 years with the latest tech available and the IAF kept as a technologically superior force which can never happen with a Rafale. Rafale need to be MKIzed to a large extend to keep the updates and upgrades done at our own needs. Still there will be unknowns and issues as it crop up as seen in the Isreali AESA integration issue with Tejas.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone other than pointing out the money meant for Rafale purchase can be best utilized in many areas from increasing production of MK1A which inturn will continue with MK2. upgrade the existing MK1 to MK1A standard. Super Sukhoi upgrade with Virupaksha radars, place order for more Astra MK1/MK2. Testing facilities for engines. Getting Kaveri put on the Current Tejas MK1A and make it flying and so on.

Unkil or Macron are all for our money. Till now we were paying for engines and now a condition is created to pay for Engines+ airframe+ missiles+ radars+ Jammers to even flares, Eventually our scientists have to dedicate their life in inventing and making component replacements for the French purchased aircraft which must have gone into creating solutions for our own or creating a Sixth Generation jet. Eventually when there is no money to do all that we again go and launch the Stealth Medium Aircraft contact competition. The nation has to come out of this cycle.

Obvisously MK2 will be able to carry more load, go further over MK1A. Even when you have tech for MK1A surely it or its variants can go into MK2 as well or many things developed for MK2 can also go into MK1A as well. Advantage of having our own platforms.

• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Tejas Mk1A: 3,910 kg (8,620 lbs)
• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Tejas Mk2: 6,500 kg (14,330 lbs)
• Maximum External Payload Capacity of Rafale: 9,500 kg (21,000 lbs)

I will take a mix of MK1A and MK2 over Rafale
2 and a half Tejas MK1A over 1 Rafale
1 and a half Tejas MK2 over 1 Rafale

Neither the U.S nor the French can be trusted. The French don't have hostile intent but they are also for our money. Regarding GE F404, Here the political class has to get it done. Armtwist or offer bigger carrot is upto them. There is a statement from Piyush Goyal about engine supply and the lucrative offer. So if the U.S want to grab the engine part of the so called 500B trade offer, they must be delivering else lose to the French and end up with lesser $. They are also seting up MRO facility in India.

When MK1 and MK2 prototypes are tested with M88 on PV and one more prototype for new french engine for MK2, there will be pressure on GE losing current and future engine contracts.

From our side First step with engines is in getting the Kaveri certified for use on Tejas. Money can best be put in test infrastucture and make this happen. In Parallel let French engines be tested and certified on MK1A iteself. This will be useful in export offering with the engine of choice for customers. Whoever want to colloborate and get their engine tested and certified on Tejas should be welcomed.

Engines, is lucrative for the U.S as much as it is for the French. Even U.K is coming forward and bettering their engine offer for MK2.
Meanehile we must be doing risk mitigation with multiple engines tested and certified on Tejas platforms. It will be lurcrative for the
foreign engine manufacturers as they get to sell their engines for every Tejas exported.

About the deal, even if it collapses. better put that money in Kaveri infrastructure+upgrading MK1 to MK1A standard. Super Sukhoi upgrade orders for Astra MK2 and much more frequent upgrade+updates of our desi fighters and keep them top notch and ready.

[Rakesh]

Why India is betting everything on the French Rafale
https://lessentieldeleco.fr/5967-pourqu ... -francais/
14 Feb 2026

India reached a decisive milestone on February 12, towards the acquisition of 114 Rafale fighter jets. The Defence Acquisition Council granted the Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) under the MRFA program, for an estimated US$40 billion. This green light paves the way for commercial and technical negotiations between Paris and New Delhi, without yet constituting a firm contract for Dassault Aviation. The announcement comes days before Emmanuel Macron’s visit to India, from February 17 to 19, with the minimum objective of signing a framework agreement or a memorandum of understanding. This command would be the largest acquisition of weapons in Indian history. New Delhi has already bought 36 Rafales for its air force in 2016, all delivered in late 2022, and 26 aircraft for its navy destined for the INS Vikrant aircraft carrier, in a deal finalized in 2025. India’s defense budget jumped 15% for fiscal year 2026-2027, reaching US$93 billion, with an increase of 22% in investment credits dedicated to aircraft, ship and artillery systems acquisitions.

96 Rafale assembled in India, 18 delivered from France

The negotiated scheme provides for the rapid delivery of 18 Rafale produced in France, followed by the assembly of 96 aircraft in India. This distribution is part of the “Make in India” strategy launched by Narendra Modi in 2014. According to the Indian Ministry of Defence, the majority of the aircraft will be manufactured on the national territory, in cooperation between Dassault Aviation and its local partner Tata. The rate of indigenization would start at 30% for the first devices assembled locally, to exceed 60% at the end of the contract. Indian analysts consider this objective insufficient in view of the ambition of industrial sovereignty, some advocating for a minimum of 80% of local content. The previous one does not encourage optimism: during the first contract of 36 Rafale, the audits showed that Dassault had partially revised downwards its initial promises of technology transfer and local fallout. Dassault and Tata signed several agreements in June 2025 to produce the fuselages of the Rafale in India. A dedicated factory will be set up in Hyderabad to manufacture the rear, central and front sections of the fuselage, with a ramp-up from 2028. The installation will have to deliver up to two complete fuselages per month. This is the first time that complete structural elements of the Rafale will be manufactured outside France.

Limited technology transfers: New Delhi without access to source code

New Delhi will not have access to the source code of Rafale’s main electronic and electronic warfare systems. This restriction limits the Indian ability to integrate certain sensors or weapons alone without the support of Paris and its industrialists. The Indian government should this time demand quantified commitments in terms of jobs, local content and engineering transfer, with stricter follow-up than in the first contract. The MRFA program replaces the former MMRCA tender of 126 aircraft, abandoned after years of blockages on industrial sharing and liability issues with HAL. The choice of a government-to-government agreement is intended to avoid these bureaucratic pitfalls. Indian commentators, however, warn of a risk of prolonged dependence if engineering transfers remain limited to the assembly and manufacture of structures.

France buys Pinaka rocket launchers in return

France is seriously studying the multi-rocket launcher system Pinaka, developed by the Indian DRDO, to contribute to the renewal of its LRM fleet. This choice questions some of the experts: the Pinaka remains less efficient than other systems available in terms of scope and precision. Its 120 km ammunition is still in the development phase, while the French army evokes the needs of at least 150 km. For several analysts, Pinaka’s interest is less due to its current performance than to its political value as a pledge given in New Delhi in a negotiation where India claims a direct industrial return on its major contracts. Paris emphasizes the fact that, unlike other suppliers, France does not condition its arms deliveries to extraterritorial sanctions regimes. Cooperation around the Rafale extends to other programs. India and Safran announced in 2025 a partnership to co-develop a 120 kN turbofan for the future AMCA Mk2 fighter, with technology transfer and the creation in India of an engine design and production ecosystem. The program is estimated at $7 billion. Safran is also investing in a maintenance center for LEAP engines and in the first overhaul workshop of the M88 engine outside France, in Hyderabad.

[Rakesh]

Rafale vs J-20 Fighter Jets: Who Would Win?

Hosts Vishnu Som and Shiv Aroor break down how India’s induction of the 4.5-generation Dassault Rafale is reshaping the air power equation with China. They compare it head-to-head with Beijing’s fifth-generation stealth platform, the Chengdu J-20 — examining stealth versus combat experience, long-range missile reach versus real-world operational performance, and what the Meteor-equipped Rafale means for the balance of power in the region.

[drnayar]

Can anyone explain why Rafales are needed by IAF when the same amount of Su-30MKI can do a better job?

// i understand the need for pilots to have choice and kick the tyres/get familiar with Rafales, notwithstanding the cheese/wine parties that go hand in hand. But the Rafales are not better than the Su-30MKI which with brahmos will leave any country side completely devasted.

If IAF is ordering so many with government clearing all hurdles so fast, I think it’s clear that Rafale is the reason why India had complete air dominance over Pakistani skies.

Rafale F3/F3R (Current IAF Standard)
The Rafale F3R equips the Indian Air Force's (IAF) 36 jets as the baseline standard.

Key Capabilities:

RBE2 AESA radar for superior detection.

SPECTRA electronic warfare suite for jamming and self-protection.

Meteor BVR missile (extreme range/speed) and MICA missiles.

Forward hemisphere stealth (low RCS), supercruise, and high-altitude ops (e.g., cold-start in Ladakh).

Key Vulnerabilities:

Limited internal fuel vs. heavier fighters.

Top speed of Mach 1.8.

Rafale F4 ("Super Rafale")
The F4 standard, entering IAF service 2023–2025 and proposed for 114 new jets, delivers massive upgrades focused on networked warfare.

Key Capabilities:

Enhanced "collaborative combat" (links with aircraft, satellites, drones).

Upgraded SPECTRA (superior jamming/passive detection) and RBE2 AESA radar.

MICA NG missiles and Thales Scorpion helmet-mounted display for fast targeting.

Active stealth improvements.

Key Vulnerabilities:

Very high maintenance/operational costs.

Still 4.5-gen (less stealthy than 5th-gen like J-20).

Su-30MKI (Air Superiority Heavyweight)
This heavy twin-seater features 3D thrust vectoring for unmatched agility.

Key Capabilities:

Superior raw maneuverability and dogfighting.

Long range/endurance, Mach 2+ speed.

Heavy payloads, including BrahMos-A supersonic cruise missile.

Key Vulnerabilities:

Older N011M PESA radar (weaker vs. AESA in EW-heavy fights).

Large RCS (easy to detect/track).

Russian parts dependency causes maintenance delays.

Comparison Table (2026 IAF Context)
Feature Rafale F3R/F4 Su-30MKI
Role Omnirole (Medium) Air Superiority (Heavy)
Radar RBE2 AESA (LPI, superior fusion) N011M PESA (powerful but outdated)
BVR Missile Meteor (unmatched range/speed) R-77 / Astra Mk1/2
Stealth/RCS Low (active + passive) High (large, trackable)
Dogfight Very agile + HMD (F4) Superior (3D thrust vectoring)
Networking Top-tier (Combat Cloud) Moderate (upgrading w/ AI/Astra)
Speed Mach 1.8 (supercruise) Mach 2+
Payload ~9.5 tons ~8 tons (BrahMos-capable)
Rafale F4 vs. Su-30MKI: Strengths Snapshot
Aspect Rafale F4 Edge Su-30MKI Edge
BVR/Sensors Wins "see first, shoot first" (Meteor + OSF passive) -
EW/Networking SPECTRA + cloud dominance Vulnerable in dense EW
Dogfight - 3D TVC for close-in wins
Endurance - Superior range/payload (BrahMos)


The Su 30 MKI [ and Super Sukhoi ] is complementary to the Rafale F3 / F4 :IAF plans Rafale F4 for high-tech deep strikes and air superiority, pairing it with upgraded "Super Sukhoi" Su-30MKIs as missile trucks for long-range anti-ship/ground attack. This balances BVR dominance with heavy firepower.

Tejas mark 2/ 1a and AMCA provide a similar top/low tier range of capabilities across the spectrum complicating any adversary

[VKumar]

One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available

[Rakesh]

One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available

[Rakesh]

Rafale 2.0: Catalyst for Make in India
https://bharatshakti.in/rafale-2-0-cata ... e_vignette
13 Feb 2026

[Rakesh]

Please read this twitter thread....

https://x.com/UTobyM/status/2022170317498855639?s=20 ---> There are two different philosophies of modern air dominance and survivability: being difficult to see or being harder to target. The US (Lockheed Martin) and China have chosen the first. Europe has mastered the second.

Twitter Thread on one page ---> https://twitter-thread.com/t/2022170317498855639

[Rakesh]

Finally, somebody gets it!

https://x.com/RiseBharata/status/202217 ... 54535?s=20 ---> Only If Kaveri Was Not Killed Intentionally, We Won't Have To Spend $40,000,000,000 Buying This Silver Bullet.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/RiseBharata/status/202217 ... 54535?s=20 ---> Only If Kaveri Was Not Killed Intentionally, We Won't Have To Spend $40,000,000,000 Buying This Silver Bullet.

https://x.com/hellfire_81/status/202262 ... 59959?s=20 ---> My sardonic takes aside, if was on the R&D side of things & not the application side of things, I would do 02 things:

• As HAL, take 2 Kaveri engines, design something around it, and fly it. And see. Max what would happen? I would fail? Fair enough.

• I would tell GoI to beg, borrow, hire, steal, pay an arm to get the team in & get to work.

But that is pure R&D and parts of the thoughts, I do see myself.

Anyways ...

[Rakesh]

India, France to sign MoU for joint production of hammer missiles
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world ... -missiles/
15 Feb 2026

Rajnath Singh, Catherine Vautrin to discuss Rafale deal, Missile JV and expanded military cooperation in Bengaluru.

[Rakesh]

In addition to the 114 Rafale ordered, India has asked France to provide 31 Rafale Marine
https://www.latribune.fr/article/la-tri ... ale-marine
14 Feb 2026

https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/20230 ... 82170?s=20 ---> I sincerely believe the Navy will come to regret this. Most probably at the cost of dooming carrier aviation to irrelevance.

[Rakesh]

Indian Naval Air Arm to acquire 31 additional Rafale Marine
https://www.opex360.com/2026/02/15/laer ... e_vignette
15 Feb 2026

With two aircraft carriers in service – the INS Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia, and the nationally designed INS Vikrant – the Indian Navy [Indian Navy] currently aligns only about thirty MiG-29K/KUB on-board fighters, who have problems with availability, due to difficulties in the supply of spare parts and a lack of reliability of certain equipment, such as the Zhuk radar. Also, in the late 2010s, the Indian Ministry of Defence launched the “Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighters” [MCBF] project to acquire 57 multi-role onboard combat aircraft that could be implemented from an aircraft carrier in the STOBAR configuration [stopping plane and stop strands] and CATOBAR.

Finally, this ambition was revised downwards given that the MCBF project materialized in April 2025, with the order of 22 Rafale M and four Rafale B with Dassault Aviation. And that too, at the expense of Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet. Previously, India had given the green light to the development of an onboard fighter of national design, as part of the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter [TEDBF] program. The goal, set in 2020, was to fly a prototype in the course of 2026, with a view to a commissioning by 2030.

In any case, the Indian Navy will have even greater needs in the coming years as it wants to have four aircraft carriers by 2047. Thus, in 2023, its chief of staff had reported on work relating to a third ship of this type. “With the INS Vikrant, the Cochin Shipyard [CSL] has developed considerable expertise and skills that must be maintained. That’s why we are working on a third aircraft carrier, which will be similar to the INS Vikrant,” he said. In addition, there is also talk of building a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, equipped with electromagnetic catapults. In any case, this is what the TPCR-2025 predicts, a document that, published last August, details the military capabilities that New Delhi intends to equip itself with over the next 15 years. In addition, this roadmap confirms the development of the TEDBF as well as the acquisition of LCA Navy, i.e. the naval version of the HAL Tejas, the idea being - a priority - to make it a training aircraft. According to information from the specialized site Indian Defence Research Wing [IDRW], the Indian Navy plans to line up to 120 onboard fighters “over the next decade.” And that could benefit Dassault Aviation.

According to La Tribune, New Delhi is considering acquiring an additional 31 Rafale Ms. This would mean returning to the target that was originally defined for the MCBF project. It remains to be seen when this order is finalized, knowing that the administrative procedures are both long and complicated in India. For now, the priority is to order 114 more Rafales for the Indian Air Force. An order that obtained the green light from the Defence Acquisition Council on February 12. With an estimated amount of 30 billion euros, it still has to go through several steps before being definitively validated by the Cabinet Committee on the security of the Indian Prime Minister.