Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, I am not saying Su-30MKI is an option if today the choice is made. Su-30 MKI is a decision way back. For sure. our own mistake that we did not go ahead with Marut and further fighters etc. Su-30MKI is a fighter that already exists in IAF. The only option is to upgrade them and keep doing it till the AMCA MK2's arrive. It's really pathetic that the Super Sukhoi upgrade is taken up very late. Once again shows the IAF's lack of vision. The numbers that are updated are in the 83, I don't know why keep the remaining obsolete? Will adding More Rafael must have given us the edge or fast tracking the Super Sukhoi program must have given use the edge in dominating the skies. Import Rafale and then keep remaining fighters in obsolesce is another issue of the IAF.

Wistfully talking about the past is not going to change the present or the future.

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

[uddu]

led. The numbers of 114 is insane. It must have been max at another 24 or so. Just to make sure there is some induction of fighters when the MK2 starts getting inducted. IAF fight with? IAF not inducting Astra on time with Su-30 MKI has cost us? Who prevented them from that? Astra is in testing from how many years. While flying with Russian missiles and not inducting a modern missile. They can fight such a war? May be shocked at the result of it. Then started induction of Astra. Take the case of upgrading of radars Why is it still taken such a long time if IAF is so urgent and is want to fight with Modern AESA radar in the face of Uttam? Only now that project is getting sanction when everything is perfect and tech beats global competition. How capable are Mirages and Mig-29's compared to MK1A's? Replace them with MK1A's if you are sure that they are better than those aircrafts. Starts with the basics. Take the first step.

Whether we like it or not, 114 will come. Look at the future fleet strength. By the middle of the next decade, the MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars will all retire. On the horizon is 180 incoming Tejas Mk1A + 272 Su-30MKI + 36 Rafales + 100 Tejas Mk2. That comes to little over 29 squadrons. The official strength is supposed to be at 42. What will you fill the gap with? Even if we add another 100 more Mk2s, that will bring the strength to around 34 squadrons. You still need another 8 squadrons more. What will you fill it with?

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

[Aditya_V]

My only hope is that there is some deal which Will help ave our local engines for LCA Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA, atleast that will get us a bigger fleet, I hope UAE Rafale MRO is part of this deal, so we will eventually have 176 Rafale between AF and Navy.

[uddu]

My only hope is that there is some deal which Will help ave our local engines for LCA Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA, atleast that will get us a bigger fleet, I hope UAE Rafale MRO is part of this deal, so we will eventually have 176 Rafale between AF and Navy.

There seems 0 involvement of IAF. Now there may be as the ministry or ministers may be asking them to do something. Not heard a single word of asking for Kaveri or its variants from the Chief or anyone in the IAF till now. Not a tidbit of news. The most you hear is Kaveri thrust requirement did not meet our needs. That's it. Whatever is happening the news is that of DRDO improving on it and private players offering afterburner and so on. IAF is like we will import. Maja Nahi Aya with desi equipment. They want perfection with indigenous equipment. Fine, that's how it should be. But when we open the IAF's own record, it's pathetic.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

Numbers in large triple digits will come about only with our own engine.

The IAF, the MoD, the PMO and the Babus (the stakeholders) will not jump on board without our own homegrown turbofan. None of the above will become a reality without their buy in.

[uddu]

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

Numbers in large triple digits will come about only with our own engine.

The IAF, the MoD, the PMO and the Babus (the stakeholders) will not jump on board without our own homegrown turbofan. None of the above will become a reality without their buy in.

They are also responsible for the pathetic state of situation. If Parikkar has said let's import rather than attempt an HTT-40, we will continue importing basic trainers. The leadership is supposed to lead by providing what is needed to get things done, rather than do wait and watch games. Kaveri came with lesser thrust. Tech is there. Provide the needed facilities. Get the private players involved in improving the afterburner section if they have the facilities to manufacture them taking tech from lab to factory. Cut down time. However it is, get the Kaveri project done and make it fly on Tejas. Otherwise why we need to have a Defense Minister? Just to import fighters from abroad? Multiple Kaveri engines of various sizes and thrust could be done for the money being put in imports.

[uddu]

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

Rakesh ji, It's not just the past. It's Present and Future as well. There is very very little change in this attitude that existed then and today. Import Air Force disease has not changed. The Soon to be Future version of it is the need to have Su-57. Then will come the need to import 6 th gen and so on. Until you cure the disease by yourself and choose what the Indian Navy is doing, no one can help the IAF. They will remain an Imported Air Force.

[uddu]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

[drnayar]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

that is very much the reality. India has no other option than to keep up., buy or build

[uddu]

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

that is very much the reality. India has no other option than to keep up., buy or build

We have the real Atmanirbhar option if they choose it. IAF should be onboard not in lip service but in asking for it and getting it done. It's really tough, but they have to trend that path for a decade atleast. Once IAF takes the lead others including the MoD to RM to PM will follow and provide what is required.

[Rakesh]

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

Rakesh ji, It's not just the past. It's Present and Future as well. There is very very little change in this attitude that existed then and today. Import Air Force disease has not changed. The Soon to be Future version of it is the need to have Su-57. Then will come the need to import 6 th gen and so on. Until you cure the disease by yourself and choose what the Indian Navy is doing, no one can help the IAF. They will remain an Imported Air Force.

We are back at square one

No engine, so import fighter. No amount of word salad is going to change that fact.

In 2016, had we funded Kaveri....we would not be buying 114 Rafales in 2026. Would we?

[Rakesh]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

But yet you are okay with importing another 24 more

Since Rafale is bad, we should not purchase any more Rafale. Also retire the 36 we have now and cancel the 26 order for the Navy.

Cancel everything. Because what you said above is equally true for the confirmed Rafales we have in service or on order.

[bala]

On Engine: the current GTRE kaveri is almost there in terms of spec at least for the non-afterburner core.

My question is why can't we fly Tejas MK1A with just the core, no afterburner. As it is we fire missiles at longer range BVR and there are no more dogfights in actual warfare anymore. When the afterburner issues are squared away the engine is upgraded. With afterburner, the Tejas will have rapid fire and scoot away. This is something that can happen right now after some more certification tests.

[Rakesh]

On Engine: the current GTRE kaveri is almost there in terms of spec at least for the non-afterburner core.

My question is why can't we fly Tejas MK1A with just the core, no afterburner. As it is we fire missiles at longer range BVR and there are no more dogfights in actual warfare anymore. When the afterburner issues are squared away the engine is upgraded. With afterburner, the Tejas will have rapid fire and scoot away. This is something that can happen right now after some more certification tests.

Saar, you need afterburner to take off.

[bala]

Saar, you need afterburner to take off.

This from Google AI

Yes, afterburners are used for takeoff in military aircraft, particularly for rapid acceleration, heavy loads, short runways, or when high temperatures reduce engine performance. While often utilized for maximum thrust, they are not always used for every takeoff, as they significantly increase fuel consumption.

Conclusions: for normal takeoffs not needed!

[Rakesh]

The first half of the answer from Google AI is applicable (i.e. high temperatures) to nearly every military air station in India.

I have yet to see a single IAF fighter take off without an afterburner, operating from an Indian air base. In fact, I have yet to see any IAF fighter aircraft take off from any airbase globally (i.e. international air exercises) without the use of afterburner.

Even in clean configuration (no pylons, weapons, drop tanks, ECM pods, etc), the Tejas will require an afterburner.

I am willing to be corrected on this.

[drnayar]

Summary of Afterburner Usage

Aircraft Type Afterburner Requirement for Takeoff
Early Jets (e.g., F-86) None (not equipped)
Older Supersonic (e.g., F-4) Almost always required due to low dry thrust
Modern Fighters (e.g., F-15, F-16) Optional; based on weight and runway length
Supercruise (e.g., F-22, Typhoon) Rarely "necessary," but used for high-performance maneuvers

While modern supersonic fighters are almost always equipped with them, their use during takeoff is a tactical and operational decision rather than a mechanical necessity for every flight. pilots may still use it for "unrestricted climbs" or in combat scrambles to reach altitude as fast as possible.

Factors Influencing Afterburner Use

Pilots perform a "takeoff and landing data" (TOLD) calculation before every flight to determine if an afterburner is required.

Weight and Loadout: A "slick" aircraft (no external tanks or heavy bombs) can often take off using only "Military Power"—the maximum thrust a jet engine produces without afterburner. Heavily loaded planes usually require the extra boost.

Runway Length: If the calculated takeoff roll at Military Power exceeds 50% of the available runway, regulations typically mandate an afterburner takeoff for safety.

Environmental Conditions: High "density altitude" (hot, humid, or high-elevation air) reduces engine thrust, making afterburners necessary when they might not be on a cold day.

Carrier Operations: On aircraft carriers, afterburners are almost always used to ensure enough speed is reached by the end of the short deck.

[bala]

My suggestion of engine without afterburner can be used by IAF on limited number of tejas and be a part of testing so that the core is fully refined. Once the core is done, the afterburner section is added (whenever they figure it out completely). IAF has to have some skin in the game of local fighter jets instead of being only a customer.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/2022009307630645369?s=20 ---> Will HAL be part of Rafale production in India or be left out? It came up in my discussion tonight around the newly cleared procurement of 114 Rafale jets.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Sootradhar/status/2021958 ... 14065?s=20 ---> Govt of India seems to following the commonsense plan devised by Late Manohar Parrikar.

Parrikar had asked the IAF one question, You have Russian, French, American & Indian Platforms. How do you plan to train maintenance crews? Assuming if one set of crew is KIA, how will you replace them? In addition Parrikar was annoyed at very low availability of Su-30, MiG-29 due to lack of spares. In short he made up his mind that India must have platforms wherein supply of spares are never a problem = Streamline the Fleet. He insisted with Dassault for high rate of availability of the Rafale. Second it was he who insisted that Dassault must ensure that Indian companies must be on the global supply chain of Dassault. And this is happening as Tata's will build Aerostructures, many other Indian companies selected by Dassault will be part of the eco system. I believe we are streamlining IAF fleet of fighter jets. It will be French and Indian jets here on.

My Note: ^^^ The high availability rate of the Rafale resulted in the PBL (Performance Based Logistics) agreement in the first contract of 36 Rafales. The PBL stated that for five years, the fleet availability has to be at minimum 75%. The fleet has consistently achieved a rate higher than that. Much pranams to Manohar Parrikar's vision. That PBL will now transform into the MRO at Jewar for the airframe and the MRO at Hyderabad for the M88 turbofan.

The French have already started to pop Champagne in Paris, over the DAC approval for 114 Rafales. See the two tweets below. The first one is from Marie Le Pen, whom I believe is the Leader of the Opposition in French Parliament.

https://x.com/MLP_officiel/status/20220 ... 05597?s=20 ---> The Indian government has just approved the purchase of 114 Rafale aircraft, confirming its status as Dassault’s best-selling export product. This is yet another proof of the excellence of the French defense industry in international competition. On the geopolitical level, it is also a strong signal that underscores the importance of the strategic bilateral partnership between India and France. These ties of trust, respectful of the sovereignty and interests of each State, are a true cement for global stability. We will work to strengthen them in the years to come!

https://x.com/cperrin90/status/2021942164750839976?s=20 ---> On 23 September 2016, I had the honor of participating in India at the signing of the contract for 36 Rafale aircraft. 10 years later: 114 Rafale purchased for 33 billion euros. A major industrial and strategic success. French Pride.

[Rakesh]

The GOI has embarked on a highly complex venture i.e. Rafale assembly. Read the tweets below (translated from French). The number of variables that could go wrong here is fairly high. One hopes that the GOI has crossed all the 'T's and dotted all the 'I's.

https://x.com/AlexXplore/status/2021898 ... 32013?s=20 ---> To build a Rafale, an ecosystem of nearly 400 companies is required, including Dassault Aviation, Thales, and Safran, but also numerous SMEs and mid-sized enterprises spread across the entire territory, particularly in Normandy and Nouvelle-Aquitaine, generating around 7,000 direct and indirect jobs.

The assembly of a Rafale takes place over 3 years and requires the production of 300,000 parts.

Rafale exports have intensified, with orders from Serbia, Indonesia, and especially India, which could become the world's leading operator outside France.

Dassault is investing in AI and preparing the Rafale F5 and the M88 T-Rex engine to enhance its capabilities.

https://x.com/ChurchillWw/status/202190 ... 66747?s=20 ---> France is the only European country with a complete air combat industry chain — engine, radar, integration. The UK has merged, Germany depends on joint programs. The 400 companies exist because Paris has absorbed the cost of this independence for 40 years. It’s a political choice as much as an industrial one.

https://x.com/JeanMichelMIS/status/2021 ... 27368?s=20 ---> Totally agree. Independence comes at a cost, and it's a choice to still be able to control our destiny in this field. Something to ponder for other sectors.

https://x.com/ChurchillWw/status/202191 ... 63305?s=20 ---> Exactly. And the paradox is that this cost is invisible when it works— we only see the ecosystem when we risk losing it. Space and nuclear have followed the same logic in France.

https://x.com/DJulian5348/status/202196 ... 19946?s=20 ---> For info, India is producing more and more parts for the Rafale, and the M88 engine very soon. There’s technology transfer involved. It’s a necessary evil because France alone couldn’t fund its industry, but still an evil all the same.

[bharathp]

Instead of 114 Rafales, we should have got 1,000+ M88 engines and based our Tejas series on it.

I am hoping this will be a viable path for Mk2/AMCA as well.

[Rakesh]

Instead of 114 Rafales, we should have got 1,000+ M88 engines and based our Tejas series on it.

I am hoping this will be a viable path for Mk2/AMCA as well.

We should have followed the Dhruv model for Tejas, till the Kaveri was ready. IMRH also follows the Dhurv model as well.

The AMCA turbofan will be a JV between GTRE and Safran. Perhaps during a MLU for the Tejas Mk1A fleet, we can do a re-engine with the M88 Trex. Because I do not see Kaveri ending up on front line Tejas squadrons.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2021918326839251378?s=20 ---> Imagine if govt was in mission mode and had spent 3 lakh crore on the Indian military aerospace ecosystem in the last 10 years. We would have a full fledged 4.5 generation aircraft, a 5th gen aircraft and a full range of aero-engines. And a strong pipeline for further iterations.

[Rakesh]

114 Rafales to Join IAF | Why The Rafale Deal Matters

The Indian Ministry of Defence has approved the procurement of 114 additional Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force in a deal valued at approximately ₹3.25 lakh crore. The Defence Acquisition Council, led by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, cleared the acquisition to address the IAF's depleting squadron strength, which has fallen to nearly 30 squadrons. Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor (Retd) noted that while 18 jets will arrive in 'fly-away' condition, the remaining 96 will be manufactured in India, potentially creating a second production line alongside HAL. Senior journalist Sandeep Unnithan highlighted that this deal signals France as India's 'strategic partner of choice' for high-end military technology. Defence analyst Colonel Ajay Shukla emphasized the need for a long-term view on fleet rationalisation. The project aims for 40-50% indigenous content, supporting the 'Atmanirbhar Bharat' initiative while countering regional aerial threats. The final approval now rests with the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

[Rakesh]

The Rafale Roar: Rs 3.25 Lakh Crore Slap On Cynics

India has approved a proposal worth Rs 3.25 lakh crore to procure 114 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), marking the biggest defence acquisition in the country's history. The clearance was granted by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, which accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) to the programme. The decision comes ahead of French President Emmanuel Macron's forthcoming official visit to New Delhi.

[uddu]

But yet you are okay with importing another 24 more

Since Rafale is bad, we should not purchase any more Rafale. Also retire the 36 we have now and cancel the 26 order for the Navy.

Cancel everything. Because what you said above is equally true for the confirmed Rafales we have in service or on order.

What I am saying is importing anything is bad. Rafale indeed is a very good fighter. Same is our own Tejas. Tejas MK2 can outdo the Rafale in many areas. We must be doing things on our own and inducting our own fighters. Why I suggested few more squadrons is because of the IAF. A slight delay in indigenous program and they go into panic mode. It's a mindset problem. There are no issues with S-400 delay, no issues with Apache delays, no issues with GE or honeywell engine delays. They ask for perfection, which is how it should be not just with indigenous equipment but with foreign systems as well. So to quell their panic with squadron numbers and to give some room for the team working on indigenous equipment, a tiny bit more Rafale squadrons, until the Tejas MK2 production picks up. Probably both coming together for a year or two will help IAF to decommission some squadrons of outdated fighters much more faster. This will also help us do risk management in terms of some delays from other players if that happens.
Once the MK2 comes into service, we must be in a position to sell the ones in our service to friendly forces or back to France for a profit. Not hold onto them for the next 30 years pumping public money on expensive hardware just to keep them in the force, while the MK2 and AMCA start outdoing Rafale in every aspect with new indigenous capability coming into induction.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/dotcom_1106/status/202188 ... 62050?s=20 ---> DAC green lights India funding for 𝗥𝗮𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗙𝟱 & 𝗙𝗖𝗔𝗦 development. Now this clears the path for France to throw Germany & Spain out of 𝗙𝗖𝗔𝗦 program & go on its own with assured funding from India.

[Rakesh]

It’s a Go: Ministry clears purchase of 114 Rafales, SCALP missiles & more
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 273317.cms
13 Feb 2026

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/2022211912675864955?s=20 ---> On Defence Acquisition Council clears a proposal to buy 114 Rafale fighter jets. Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh says, "... For the first time, Rafale aircraft will be manufactured outside France with significant levels of localisation. We are seeking a minimum of 40 to 50%... The first time 'Make in India,' Rafael outside France backed up by a government-to-government agreement, no intermediaries, full transparency in the project itself, G2G significant levels of localisation, and full authority to integrate Indian weapons and Indian systems are the highlights of this program. It also enables us to induct fighter aircraft relatively quickly because the first of the Rafale Marines will start coming in '28, and after that, over a period of time, you will see that about three and a half years from now, the first of these Air Force Rafales will also start coming..."

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/2022 ... 03529?s=20 ---> The most significant military combat aircraft deal by India ever. The key point here is that for the first time since 1947 a privately held consortium will manufacture combat aircraft within Bharatm something that was hitherto an exclusive preserve of HAL. Will help develop & grow the large aviation supplier base in India manifold. Look forward to seeing companies like @larsentoubro, @DynamaticTech (already a supplier for the F15EX) & @GodrejEnt_group join firms like @tataadvanced to build the Rafale in Bharat. Fact remind that over the last 60 odd years, HAL basically held onto any bit of manufacturing knowledge it got from the Russians or elsewhere as it's sole preserve & did all it could to prevent the rise of a private ecosystem. Only in recent days did HAL begin to open up with some sub-assemblies for LCA & the Su-30 contracted out. The Rafale will bring a paradigm shift in aviation manufacturing within Bharat.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/2022 ... 03529?s=20 ---> The most significant military combat aircraft deal by India ever. The key point here is that for the first time since 1947 a privately held consortium will manufacture combat aircraft within Bharatm something that was hitherto an exclusive preserve of HAL. Will help develop & grow the large aviation supplier base in India manifold. Look forward to seeing companies like @larsentoubro, @DynamaticTech (already a supplier for the F15EX) & @GodrejEnt_group join firms like @tataadvanced to build the Rafale in Bharat. Fact remind that over the last 60 odd years, HAL basically held onto any bit of manufacturing knowledge it got from the Russians or elsewhere as it's sole preserve & did all it could to prevent the rise of a private ecosystem. Only in recent days did HAL begin to open up with some sub-assemblies for LCA & the Su-30 contracted out. The Rafale will bring a paradigm shift in aviation manufacturing within Bharat.

https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/2022 ... 20943?s=20 --->

[Rakesh]

The premise of the article - highlighted in the quote below - is completely wrong. No wonder we are importing.

Opinion | Inside India's High-Stakes Push For Buying A Record 114 Rafales
https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/inside-the ... s-10993307
12 Feb 2026

If the power of such a huge purchase does not put New Delhi in the driver's seat to fast-track acquisition of technology, then nothing else will.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SAFRAN/status/2022213887731302845?s=20 ---> Defense business: momentum remains very strong in defense.

Launched the first M88 MRO shop outside France in Hyderabad and invested in new production lines for complex rotating parts at Le Creusot to ramp up M88 production.

Signed an agreement with Bharat Electronics to set up a joint venture for local production of our HAMMER guided bomb in India.

[Rakesh]

What I am saying is importing anything is bad. Rafale indeed is a very good fighter. Same is our own Tejas. Tejas MK2 can outdo the Rafale in many areas. We must be doing things on our own and inducting our own fighters. Why I suggested few more squadrons is because of the IAF. A slight delay in indigenous program and they go into panic mode. It's a mindset problem. There are no issues with S-400 delay, no issues with Apache delays, no issues with GE or honeywell engine delays. They ask for perfection, which is how it should be not just with indigenous equipment but with foreign systems as well. So to quell their panic with squadron numbers and to give some room for the team working on indigenous equipment, a tiny bit more Rafale squadrons, until the Tejas MK2 production picks up. Probably both coming together for a year or two will help IAF to decommission some squadrons of outdated fighters much more faster. This will also help us do risk management in terms of some delays from other players if that happens.
Once the MK2 comes into service, we must be in a position to sell the ones in our service to friendly forces or back to France for a profit. Not hold onto them for the next 30 years pumping public money on expensive hardware just to keep them in the force, while the MK2 and AMCA start outdoing Rafale in every aspect with new indigenous capability coming into induction.

Saar, you cannot sit on the fence

If imports are bad, then cancel ALL imports. This "tiny bit more" is not feasible as per the reasons you have mentioned earlier.

But we have a shortage of 13+ squadrons right now (29 versus 42). By time all the 180 Tejas Mk1As (~ 9 squadrons) get inducted by the middle of the next decade; the following aircraft will have all been retired or will be close to:

1) MiG-29UPG: 3 squadrons
2) Mirage 2000I/TI: 2.5 squadrons
3) Jaguar IS/IB/IM: ~ 6 squadrons

That is another ~12 squadrons that will be phased out by the mid-2030s and we will be back in the same hole as today and actually even worse. By the mid-2030s, there will be the following;

* 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons
* 9 Tejas Mk1A squadrons
* 13+ Su-30MKI squadrons
* 2 Rafale F3R(I) squadrons

And that is it. That is around 26 squadrons. The Indian Air Force will be at parity with the Pakistan Air Force.

The Tejas Mk2 will have just begun to enter squadron service. Please see this link ---> viewtopic.php?p=2671457#p2671457. The Tejas Mk2 is the fighter that will outclass the MiG-29, the Mirage 2000, the Jaguar and even the Rafale, in a number of parameters. It makes ample sense to produce more Tejas Mk2s versus inducting any further Tejas Mk1As, especially in the next decade. The Tejas Mk2 is also the stepping stone to the AMCA.

But the shortage needs to be addressed till the Tejas Mk2 starts entering service in sizeable numbers. That is where the MRFA comes in. There will be two concurrent lines i.e. one @ HAL (Tejas Mk1A, Mk2) and one @ TASL (Rafale). Two lines are better than one to address the squadron shortage. Now one can argue that why not give another Tejas line to a private manufacturer. That is easier said than done with HAL already having incentivized Tejas production. HAL can argue that why give another line to a private manufacturer, when they are already doing it. Just give additional orders will be the argument.

There was enough political controversy during the fake Rafale scam that NaMo stole jobs from HAL and gave it to Ambani for Rafale production in India. If such a narrative takes hold country wide, the govt could lose the next election. And in a democracy, elections matter. Because election outcomes drive policy. That is the ground reality of democracy that our enemies like China and Pakistan never have to entertain. When Xi states that he wants 500 J-20s, there is not a single public dissent anywhere. What Xi wants, Xi gets. You cannot do that in India or in any democracy for that matter.

With Rafale (or any other MRFA), HAL does not have a ground to stand on. They have zero investment (money or in human resources) in the MRFA. HAL can whine all it wants about the loss of MRFA assembly, but unlike the Tejas...there is not a single production jig of the Rafale at any HAL facility. And neither should there be. Dassault was absolutely correct in stating that they cannot guarantee a Rafale built at a HAL facility.

By handing the MRFA contract to TASL, the Govt also wants to end HAL's monopoly and it is long overdue IMVHO. HAL is an organization that needs to wake up from its PSU slumber and learn to face competition. HAL has never faced accountability - in its entire history - for its delays and it is time they face that reality. When future orders start drying up, because a private manufacturer can do the same job quicker and better...then HAL will wake up. The unions at HAL have ruined that organisation.

It is for this very reason that HAL was eliminated from the prototype development for the AMCA. And they will likely not get the production contract for the AMCA either. HAL has to prove that it can stand toe-to-toe with any private manufacturer in India. The proof will lie in the pudding.

There is a lot to complain about the Rafale. There is a lot to complain about this Govt's handling of the MRFA contract. But shame on all the stakeholders who did nothing to complete the development of the Kaveri turbofan. The best time to start that was 10 years ago. The second best time to start that is NOW. Complete the Kaveri so that in a mid-life update....we can put that engine into the Tejas Mk1A. If you have $35+ billion to buy 114 Rafales, then you certainly have the money to complete the Kaveri.

[Rakesh]

"First time Rafale will be built outside France with major localisation": Defence Secretary in DAC's nod for 114 jets
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 213133604/
13 Feb 2026

^^^ Defense Secretary stating that weapons integration will be allowed. Also stating that the first batch of 114 Rafales will arrive in 3.5 years. So if a deal is signed this year, we are looking at 2029/2030 time frame. This will be the 18 flyaway aircraft.

With regards to the weapons integration, we have to read the fine print. Who will do it? Will we have to pay each time, we want to integrate a weapons system? These are the key questions to know.

[uddu]

Rakesh ji, We don't' have to sit on the Fence we can sit on own own ground. Tejas MK1A numbers can be increased. The U.S air force has 657 F-16's in service at the moment. Why can't we have more production lines at HAL and place order for more MK1A's? Very much possible. Numbers will start appearing once the MK1A's start getting inducted in few months time and the production need to be kept on going with MK1's MK2's and the numbers invested in our own fighters. Also you are once again going back to the HAL thinking it's a production problem. It's not. Nothing to do with production. If you want more fighters, place orders and they will build more lines and get production humming and showcasing the fighters. Only reasons hindering it at the moment are the engines and the few issues mentioned about LRU's. With the experience already gained, if you can get engines HAL can manufacture any number of fighter you need. Hope IAF is ready to place the first tranche of MK2 in the 200+ numbers rather than in the 99 numbers not only hindering the bargaining option for the GE F414 engines and many other things including sourcing of components for long term and then again complain about Squadron shortage. If IAF is going to do the review in May. And with that time, GE could deliver the engines, it will be sight to behold to see all those manufactured aircraft handed over to the IAF in one go. I am waiting for that moment.

[Rakesh]

Make In India Boost: France's Safran Ready To Build Local Assembly Line Under Rafale Deal, Says Report
https://www.ndtvprofit.com/india/safran ... t-10999620
13 Feb 2026

[Sumeet]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2021918326839251378?s=20 ---> Imagine if govt was in mission mode and had spent 3 lakh crore on the Indian military aerospace ecosystem in the last 10 years. We would have a full fledged 4.5 generation aircraft, a 5th gen aircraft and a full range of aero-engines. And a strong pipeline for further iterations.

If govt had 3 lakh crore to spend, it would have spent it on Rafale in 2016 itself

Unless private players don't come forward and play the serious game of R&D -- not merely customizing foreign product or screwdriver giri (perhaps with support of Govt funds initially) we will not have a fully secure Aerospace sector. DRDO/ADA can't do it alone. But establishing this (public-private infrastructure) is very important for industrialization of India. Military tech has commercial and civilian impacts (in good ways). Also, it will be a great employment generation sector. I hope they do this otherwise Mk2, Super Sukhoi, AMCA won't see the light of the day.

If Govt. had foresight, back in 2019 itself right after balakot they should have sanctioned Super Sukhoi upgrade on war footing just like they are clearing this 114 MRFA. But better late than never, at least Op Sindoor has made our babus, MoD and MoF more aware of our defense needs. Biggest thing is public is also better aware of our security threats. Hope something good will come out of this.

Lastly, I think we should give up self applauding us for oh we did this cheaper than hollywood film etc ... Focus on outcomes and please don't be miser in spending in national interest.

We have critical projects:

Next Gen Radar from LRDE and Data Patterns
Next Gen EW Suite and ASPJ
IRST System development
Starting work on Fly by light control system
Development of next gen hardware for Aviation -- Radar processor, DFCC, Signal Processors, Mission Computers, DRFM
JV for Engine development
Multiple fighter jet weapons - SAAW, Brahmos, Rudram, Astra, Nirbhay etc missile systems

All this will make us a reliable in next 10 years but must be funded on war footing without exception.

[A_Gupta]

Supposedly all the Kaveri learnings are input into the collaboration with Safran.

[Rakesh]

Tejas MK1A numbers can be increased. The U.S air force has 657 F-16's in service at the moment.

Please find out which blocks those 657 F-16s are actually at. Generalizations are nice to state, but when you get into the specifics....then the story changes. A simple google search will reveal that answer. And also find out why the older block models are being upgraded. You can do that on the F-16, as the airframe has not changed over the course of various developmental blocks. You cannot do that in the transition from Tejas Mk1A to Tejas Mk2, as both airframes have different dimensions.

Why can't we have more production lines at HAL and place order for more MK1A's? Very much possible. Numbers will start appearing once the MK1A's start getting inducted in few months time and the production need to be kept on going with MK1's MK2's and the numbers invested in our own fighters.

All 180 Mk1As are planned to be completed by 2033 if I am not mistaken. By that point, the Tejas Mk2 should be ready to roll into production phase.

When we are talking about increasing the squadron strength, you are also looking at increase in firepower capability. If it was just a numbers game, you can re-open the MiG-21 line. But will that provide the capability of a Tejas Mk2? And if MiG-21s are too expensive, we can go to HTT-40. But same issue will be here as well. Or if you want really dirt cheap, you can get P-51 Mustang or Supermarine Spitfire from World War 2 era. You are not playing kabadi or gilli danda. Capability matters, as much as numbers. They go hand in hand.

The Tejas Mk2 is a single engine, multi-role fighter aircraft and will be better than even the Rafale in a number of areas. You need an aircraft that has a more powerful engine, longer range, heavier payload capacity, more internal fuel, better sensors, etc than the Tejas Mk1A. And that aircraft is the Tejas Mk2. If you went to a car showroom and you had the option to choose between a Maruti 800 and a Maruti Grand Vitara...which one would you pick? Because that is the capability jump that the Tejas Mk2 offers over the Tejas Mk1A.

Also you are once again going back to the HAL thinking it's a production problem. It's not. Nothing to do with production. If you want more fighters, place orders and they will build more lines and get production humming and showcasing the fighters. Only reasons hindering it at the moment are the engines and the few issues mentioned about LRU's.

Let us revisit this discussion when they actually deliver aircraft on time. They are already two years overdue. And yes engines were and still are an issue. But there are other issues that exist as well. They want IAF to give concessions on five airframes with engines, that HAL states is ready for induction. After five years and barring the engines, what are the outstanding issues that HAL is unable to resolve? And then they have the gall to complain that they lost out on Rafale assembly and AMCA prototype contract. An over bloated PSU with a shameless hubris of self entitlement.

And before you bring up the argument that the IAF gleefully gives concessions to imported maal and thus they are apt to be named as Imported Air Force. Well, then it is all the more vital to shatter that notion and deliver aircraft on time. Because then when HAL actually delivers, then Air HQ will not have an argument to fall back on. First remove the bottleneck in your system, before you go and point out the bottlenecks in someone else's system. Deliver aircraft on time, as per contract and Air HQ ka muh band kar.

With the experience already gained, if you can get engines HAL can manufacture any number of fighter you need. Hope IAF is ready to place the first tranche of MK2 in the 200+ numbers rather than in the 99 numbers not only hindering the bargaining option for the GE F414 engines and many other things including sourcing of components for long term and then again complain about Squadron shortage. If IAF is going to do the review in May. And with that time, GE could deliver the engines, it will be sight to behold to see all those manufactured aircraft handed over to the IAF in one go. I am waiting for that moment.

Additional Tejas Mk2s will get inducted. It would have been nice to get 200 in go, but 99 turbofans is what they are currently discussing for. So 99 airframes it is. Anything above and beyond that, is khayli pulao till a contract is signed. We would not be in this situation if we had our turbofan. But we are desitned to import & assemble someone else's turbofan and then have the audicity to call Tejas an indigenious platform. No amount of word salad that you are doing above will change that.

Rakesh ji, We don't' have to sit on the Fence we can sit on own own ground.

This is nice uddu-ji for a 5th standard civic class lesson.

Below is the reality. 8 Tejas - on the ground - because of no engine. We are certainly sitting on own ground onlee. We have more airframes than engines. But let us continue with the circus of importing someone else's turbofan. Even if all 180 Tejas Mk1As arrive by the early 2030s, the IAF will still be short of squadrons as the math in my previous post states. The Tejas Mk2 is the future. That is India's multi-role fighter. And it will be inducted in the numbers required. Only by the 2040s, will the squadron strength begin to stabilize.

https://x.com/idrwalerts/status/2021936 ... 74354?s=20 --->