INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

[Sanjay M]

Enough with politics on this thread.

[JTull]

The reactor may not be as small as many think. It is usual to quote MWt capacity for subs. I'm inclined to believe that Arihant has 180 MWt (~80MWe) reactor.

[enqyoob]

How practical is it to really tell the numbers of torpedoes or missiles carried by a sub moving through the waters or from a photo?

I think I tried to explain the progression from a confirmed exterior geometry to displacement. Then a picture of the sub on the surface taken when there is good reason to believe that it has no weapons loaded (like at the time when they are first starting to run the reactor) is enough to tell the empty weight. And so on and on... one piece of info correlates to another, and the puzzle is filled in - you don't need a Wikipedia page to tell all the details accurately. It translates into making decisions more accurately in war - for the enemy.

For an enemy, it is probably more simpler to bribe a few dock workers or someone in Nausena office at the sub base for such info. The kilos are loaded in broad daylight, under the "khula aasman".

Absolutely, except that it's not a question of "either - or". The bought dock worker, the tourist looking out over the sea when the RiceEater leaves on a mission, the satellite showing the change in waterline occurring between two passes of the satellite.. the student pilot who strays just a couple of miles from the approved flight pattern, enough to take some pictures, the innocent fishing boat bobbing in the ocean (with the acoustic and visual sensing, and low-frequency antennae trailed along with the fishing lines..), and of course, the Top Babu who is invited to the Function at the HQ of "The HINDU" where the Chinese Ambassador makes his monthly visit, the top person inside the Whisky Cabinet (stories from the Morarji Guvrmand) who calls for a Top Secret Overview of the RiceEater, and a systematic examination of posts at BRF... these are ALL part of the job of determining everything there is to know.

But the most definitive piece of info is the full geometry - so if you post speculations on those, please be sure to post MANY speculations. Increase the number of analysts that have to be devoted to solving the puzzle.

The thing most BRF jingos forget is that ppl in Intelligence, if they have any, also have a long ATTENTION SPAN. Their memory does not erase and write over, as a page turns on a BRF thread, or even if the posts get deleted. Fact once learned, is learned forever.

Once such fact that I remember, is that around 2002, when indiapakistan love was at a high and the blockade of Karachi was expected to start any moment, there was a news item that the upper floor rooms in posh Mumbai hotels, esp in certain parts, facing out to sea, where all rented by Pakis, including Paki Navy senior types, maybe retired ones.

Here is the first picture published, of the RiceEater leaving Vladivostok, Ukraine.

As you know, if I post it, it must be real. Totally 600% halal. "They" can use it without fear.


For acoustic signature cataloguing, I am sure that ships of certain navies (Australia for example) will be giving the Rice Eater an escort wherever possible. Then again, maybe it's cheaper for them too to buy someone who has the actual specs of the systems used, and actual data reports on emissions. Maybe they will put a Sears coffeepot in the Captain's room in the RiceEater, and that opens it up for EUMA inspections...

[Venkarl]

^^^
Can you fix the URL? it doesn't work.

[shiv]

^^^
Can you fix the URL? it doesn't work.

[Venkarl]

was reading little seriously...and that post came in flow

[enqyoob]

EZly distracted, r v?

Also... what IR signature reduction do subs, especially diesel-electrics, use to hide when on the surface?

If I were running the show, the RiceEater and all other Indian subs would be broadcasting loud noise on all frequencies ***most*** of the time, except when exchanging positions.. or when the real need comes to disappear. Make sure all databases cataloguing the signatures of Indian submarines are very very clear - and alike - and very loud.

Dump the hot water from cooking rice into the wake too, and run another hot water line out.. Have a Tandoor kitchen operating full-time near the aft end.

Long time ago, in order to create a source to calibrate the frequency response of certain acoustic probes, we used a cassette recorder that had recorded the noise from the exhaust of a jet engine combustor in a test rig. Amplified, of course.

Post articles in the media bemoaning the utter lack of noise reduction measures, and the shoddy work with all the vibrating panels, on Indian submarines, and how much superior Pakistani submarines are.
There would also be regular "open news" every 2 weeks showing baby pictures of the Rice Eater>
Rice Eater Diving
Rice Eater Porpoising
Rice Eater doing high speed 360-degree corkscrew roll
Rice Eater CloseUp of Acoustic Suppression Panels Being Installed by SDRE PhD Engineer
Here's what the Rice Eater Sounds Like, Under the Ocean

Each showing more and more information. All 600% authentic.

Note how I am carefully using the code name instead of the real name so that when these things get linked on GOOGLE the Chinese won't be able to figure out which new nuclear submarine I am discussing.

[John Snow]

N guru not fair you posted the picture of INS Barney

I was thinking you will post yellow submarine

[Hiten]

OT
Assumin I've finally decrypted the key of N^3 jis post, is this the pic of the our ultra-secret asset

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/233/58bv68bvtw.jpg

[Singha]

interesting to me the kilo can point its fat snout upwards to reload via the
torpedo tubes. most bideshi subs have a hatch and inclined plane running down into the torpedo room.

[Gagan]

That's just great N^3 ji.
You love to write. Good read.

[Gagan]

interesting to me the kilo can point its fat snout upwards to reload via the
torpedo tubes. most bideshi subs have a hatch and inclined plane running down into the torpedo room.

If the torpedo tubes are all underwater, this inclined carousel is how they will load the sub. It is much faster on a Kilo, the upper two torpedo tubes are above the water surface.
The T-209s should have that inclined carousel.

[enqyoob]

Serious question to the experts:

In WW2 there were "Torpedo Bombers" that dropped their torpedo from a height of some 50 feet above the water. The torpedo would then hopefully strike under the water line. More usually the torpedo bomber itself became shaheed on the deck or superstructure.

So today with all these supersonic missiles, why do submarines still depend on torpedoes fired underwater? I can understand this for killing other submarines, but for killing ships, isn't it better to launch flying torpedoes from say 5 feet above wave level? Reaction time is shortened by a factor of N where N = flight speed/water speed, which is probably like 50.

[ramana]

N^3 thats called cruise missile. Tomahawk and Exocet are examples of that.

[Rahul M]

the flying torpedoes have a limited engagement zone since there are practical limits to how big a torp you can mate to a missile's nose. these things therefore are limited by their sensors.

IIRC due to limitations of the sensors the torp has to descend to the exact thermocline the sub is in in order to execute a kill. this is apparently a tad difficult to do from a splashdown.

currently only the ASW klub missile is still in service, everyone else who had similar weapons have retired them.

But IMHO this is the future of ASW and I have literally typed pages upon pages in the old naval discussion threads on this !

[a_kumar]

So today with all these supersonic missiles, why do submarines still depend on torpedoes fired underwater? I can understand this for killing other submarines, but for killing ships, isn't it better to launch flying torpedoes from say 5 feet above wave level? Reaction time is shortened by a factor of N where N = flight speed/water speed, which is probably like 50.

Could that be the isubmarine launched anti-ship Bramhos?

From Qwiki. Bramhos Qwiki

Variants
Ship launched, Anti-Ship variant (operational)
Ship launched, Land attack variant (operational)
Land launched, Land attack variant (operational)
Land launched, Anti-Ship variant (operational)
Air launched, Anti-Ship variant
Air launched, Land attack variant [6]
Submarine launched, Anti-Ship variant
Submarine launched, Land attack variant

[Singha]

submarine torpedo weapon is limited to 21" diameter and 18ft length approx.
if you mate a missile and a torpedo, more the missile less the torpedo.

the pure torpedo can hence have a much more efficient range, warhead and
optimal speed around 50-60knots to overhaul almost any surface target.
secondly, any lurking LRMP or ship will easily pickup the launch of a missile-torp
but might miss the quiet swimout launch of a torpedo. missile can be engaged
with SAM moment it breaks surface, actively attacking a torpedo by RBU is
range limited.

any air launched torpedo (plane/helis) is considerably smaller than the
full size ones launched from ships and subs.

[Sid]

In addition to that they can be much more stealthier then air launched one. Submarine can sneak up to a ship and fire a wire-guided torpedo.

That way enemy has less reaction time due to passive homing of torpedo.

[negi]

The major constraint imo is...a submarine can only shoot what it can see , i.e. a military sub which operates the SONAR primarily in passive mode would have a very limited range and enemy ships/subs within this range can be engaged via a torpedo.

Also subs are solitary hunters and they do not transmit or receive info as frequently as a modern AC does with AWACS,other aircraft or even ground based radars for obvious reasons so it can engage only those targets which are visible to its sensor suite .

[RKumar]

one questions to Guru logs

Arihant will be fitted with K-15 and has 11m diameter
K-15 has a length of 18.5m
All the diagrams show, it will be a vertical launch ....

so how we can fit 18.5m into 11m????

Did I miss something ....

[Rahul M]

that is clearly wrong.

see here : http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/27/stories ... 940100.htm

the wiki page needs to be edited.

[RKumar]

that is clearly wrong.

see here : http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/27/stories ... 940100.htm

the wiki page needs to be edited.

Thank you for the info ...

The tactical, submarine-to-surface missile, is a light, miniaturised system, which is about 6.5 metres long and weighs seven tonnes. Powered by solid propellants, it can carry a payload of about 500 kg (range 700 km).

Operational range : 700 km @ 1,000 kg and 2,200 km @ 150 kg (Thermo-nuclear warhead)

It seems either it is intermediate solution as compare to original goals or the wiki info is totally wrong/out dated.

But then evolution is development, expolsion is destruction One step at a time ....

[tejas]

Where did the 150 kg TN come from?

[RKumar]

Where did the 150 kg TN come from?

like any other missile... configuration veriation to enhance the range or destuction as per requirements.

[Gagan]

150 Kg TN.
What would be the explosive power of this?

I think there is a confusion with the 200 Kiloton - 200Kg warhead?

[Anabhaya]

The first official confirmation on Agni-III payload types and weight came on 13-April-07 from Union Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju who said "the strategic payload of the missile is between 100 kg to 250 kg".

From the BR Agni Missile Page

[Arun_S]

Where did the 150 kg TN come from?

The first official confirmation on Agni-III payload types and weight came on 13-April-07 from Union Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju who said "the strategic payload of the missile is between 100 kg to 250 kg".

From the BR Agni Missile Page

All nuclear weapons are strategic.

BR Missile page is very specific that TN is NOT 150 Kg. To imagine as such is Flight of Fantasy into Wonderland.

IMVHO the un-tested TN warhead is ~320 Kg.

[tsarkar]

Narayanan -

Stealth -

A missile launch is extremely nosily and heard from long distances. Leads to counter attack from fast moving ASW helicopters/MPA. That is why USN decommissioned its inventory of Sub Harpoon in the 90s.

A torpedo launch, using water ram expulsion system or swimout, is extremely silent.

Effect -

Subsonic Missile punches a hole in hull and superstructure and explodes. Damage can be controlled, especially superstructure damage since engines and vital parts are deep down in the hull. Eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Hanit

Torpedo is designed to explode under a ship’s hull. The resultant shock wave breaks the back of a ship. Check the ship breaking into two. The same effect cannot be replicated by any missile within the dimensions of a torpedo.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... esting.jpg

Countermeasures –

A missile can be detected using radar and EO. Torpedo can be detected only via acoustics, with multiple ambient noise sources making detection difficult.

A missile can be countered by chaff, flares, ECM, CIWS missiles and guns. A torpedo has less effective countermeasures like towed torpedo decoys and short range depth charge launchers.

A submarine is the original stealth weapon and the torpedo complements it perfectly. AFAIK, IN procured only land attack Klubs, not anti ship.

[Dileep]

If I were running the show, the RiceEater and all other Indian subs would be broadcasting loud noise on all frequencies ***most*** of the time, except when exchanging positions.. or when the real need comes to disappear.

Maybe one should record the good old PPK&Sons climbing the karaTippara grade, and play it back through a set of old kOLaampi speakers!!

Great name RiceEater!! Always thinking in Sinhalese, aren't we?

[Singha]

I think our side mounted and towed array loudspeakers should only play
mandarin songs.

[Raja Bose]

OK now this thread is turning into another MRCA thread. GoI is mum, everybody else is speculating.

[NRao]

OK now this thread is turning into another MRCA thread. GoI is mum, everybody else is speculating.

THAT is good.

[Nitesh]

now does this need to be told:

Indeed, the main emphasis in New Delhi's doctrine of credible minimum deterrence is on minimum. Mehta announced that India is even restricting the size of its nuclear submarine fleet to just three


“Three submarines are sufficient. These should take us through the next 15 years,” Mehta said.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-define ... 999-3.html

[amit]

now does this need to be told:

Indeed, the main emphasis in New Delhi's doctrine of credible minimum deterrence is on minimum. Mehta announced that India is even restricting the size of its nuclear submarine fleet to just three


“Three submarines are sufficient. These should take us through the next 15 years,” Mehta said.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-define ... 999-3.html

Well you could look at this from another angle.

Do you think India will be able to build more than 3 Rice-eaters within the next 15 years? Mind you by build I mean, build, put to water, finish harbour trials, sea trials the whole shebang and make fully operational with the K XX or whatever mizziles. And also develop the support infra, operational doctrines etc.

I would look at it in another way. The cunning commander of the "bania hindu rust bucket navy" is playing out a capacity constraint very nicely as "see how good boys we are, we really mean minimum, and nobody need fear us".

And it's interesting he talks about 15 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the lifespan of typical Rice-eaters 30 years? What will happen in the next 15 years?

Do note that Mehta ji does not talk about the Akula and (speculation alert) her possible siblings that may join the IN.

[Austin]

Yes now that sounds resonable and realistic , Mr Mehta is a practical person.

All the talks of 8 SSGN etc etc were just hot air .....simbly not possible or affordable to maintain and operate such a fleet

If by 2022 we get 3 Arihant type in the Navy that would be possible and a realistic target ....... atleast we can put one on patrol all the time.

While we can go for more than 1 Akula that we are leasing for now.

[amit]

All the talks of 8 SSGN etc etc were just hot air .....simbly not possible or affordable to maintain and operate such a fleet

I think the 8 SSGN is the long-term target. It's just not possible to get there in the next 15 years. That's the point I was trying to make. I think it's significant that Mehta talks of only 15 years when the Arihant type of subs should have a work life of around 30 years. After 2022, with the economy bigger and with better tech capacities we should get the 8.

I personally think over the next 15 years building N-subs will be a work in progress. First three Arihants (over the 15 years) operational and then it's bigger and meaner siblings will start to swim.

And meanwhile, the IN would have perfected it's N-doctrine, operational manuals, service infra, communications, training logistics etc. While we all get excited by these sexy toys, it's these operational aspects which make these toys either deadly or duds. IMVHO.

[Philip]

By 2018-2020,we should have at least 5 SSBNs,Arihant or larger in service,one new sub every two years.This is not an impossible task to achieve,as well as acquiring from Russia by the same time around 6+ of Akulas/new class of SSGN.In fact,the IN/DRDO should concentrate on building N-powered subs and warships as the top priority,as we will have to depend upon ourselves only (with some friendly help from Russia to overcome hurdles) to build our SSBNs.Building another line of conventional AIP subs will be the max. that the DPSU shipyards will be able to handle.Either a private shipyard is tasked for the second line of convnentional AIP subs (and L&T is already very busy with the ATV hulls,etc.,and should concentrate upon N-sub building tech.),plus the first batch is acquired from abroad (Russin/Ital. Brahmos equipped subs,or Amurs) to make up numbers.

Once we have mastered N-sub reactor technology,we can then also build new N-powered carriers.As a famous US admiral once remarked,"the only capital ships are those with N-power".With fossil fuels becoming more expensive as global oil production declines,N-power will be the most cost-effective solution for our capital ships like carriers and N-subs.A suitable size of reactor could be designed for both subs and large surface ships ,a design that can also be used for civilian power in certain areas,as has been done in Russia ,where old retired N-subs have had their reactors hooked up to the grid.

[Austin]

Philip , they took more than 10 years to build the first Arihant , they would probably take 6 to 8 years to build the 2nd and 3rd which are identical to first , so 3 SSBN by 2020 - 2022 is more realistic.

This is all assuming the first sub goes through its trials successfully and every thing works as expected and gets commissioned by ~ 2012 , which is really a huge task to achieve.

On Akula , the best case scenario for us is to have one more of that class.

To operate 5 SSBN and 6+ SSGN the navy share of budget will have to go from the present 14 % of Defence budget to ~ 30 % , the best case the navy got was last year which was 17 % which this year as I read it came to 14 %.

So a more realistic option will be 3 Arihant class SSBN ( armed with K-15 or K-X ) and 2 Akula-2 , total 5 subs , assuming they get total 2 - 3 Aircraft Carrier and the 1st and 2nd line of submarine going and all other ships P-15A/B, P-17/17A and host of others this would take a good share from navy expenditure budget.

One of the reason it seems the IN was unhappy with the old INS Chakra was it took a good share of Navys budget to maintain and operate it.

3 Arihant is not bad , if we can keep 1 at sea all the time and in times of crises get the other one out at sea at short notice.

[Singha]

what if we pay Rus (who has the infra in place) to build us two more Akula-2 in the
next 6 years ?

that would fill up the SSN side of things while our domestic skills and capacity can
ramp up to meet the SSBN challenge after arihant-3

[sanjaychoudhry]

Nuclear arm

T.S. SUBRAMANIAN

With the launch of INS Arihant, India, which already can fire nuclear missiles from the ground and the air, completes its nuclear triad.

http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20090828261702500.htm