INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

[NRao]

Wot, already downgraded?

5 Arihant class + 2 Akulas + 3 Air Craft Carriers was the plan.

Operation Mithai run out of mithai?

[Austin]

what if we pay Rus (who has the infra in place) to build us two more Akula-2 in the next 6 years ?

The first Akula is costing us ~ $600 million for 10 years lease from open source info , 2 more keeping cost constant will be ~ $1.2 billion .

The key is operating cost of these subs and other infra cost which needs to be built to maintain it ,the IN will have to shell it from its own operating budget.

[Gerard]

Nuclear arm
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20090828261702500.htm

Both the PWRs can generate 80 MWe. Enriched uranium is the fuel that powers them. Light water acts as coolant and moderator. The Rare Materials Project (RMP) at Ratnahalli near Mysore, another DAE facility, produced the enriched uranium required for operating the two PWRs.

TSS (who actually knows the difference between MWe and MWt) has now repeated the 80MWe.
This is no DDM or typo error.

The PWR on board the submarine will be started up after about a year. By that time, the boat will be fitted with all equipment. Subsequently, it will undergo harbour acceptance and sea acceptance trials, before it is declared operational within two years from now. The submarine is about 111 metres long, 11 m broad and about 15 m tall. It has a surface displacement of 6,000 tonnes.

[SNaik]

Austin, you know that there's only one unbuilt Akula left. If Russia will agree to re-open the production line, the price will go up dramatically. India can opt for finishing the Belgorod though, armed with Brahmos, let's say 3 for 1 Granit, that's 72 missiles. And there are two more unfinished Anteys moored in Severodvinsk...

[Austin]

TSS (who actually knows the difference between MWe and MWt) has now repeated the 80MWe.

Yes he is consistent about MW(e) , to achieve that kind of electricity there needs to be a breakthrough or the MW(t) capacity should be at ~ 400 - 450 MW(t)

Though he is dot on ~ 6000T surface displacement

Austin, you know that there's only one unbuilt Akula left. If Russia will agree to re-open the production line, the price will go up dramatically. India can opt for finishing the Belgorod though, armed with Brahmos, let's say 3 for 1 Granit, that's 72 missiles. And there are two more unfinished Anteys moored in Severodvinsk...

Yes that one unbuilt hull is what makes me think at best we may get 1 more Akula-2 , Oscar 2 class is just too huge for India needs , those are designed primarily for anti-CBG type operation , not sure what we will do with it .

[Arun_S]

one questions to Guru logs

Arihant will be fitted with K-15 and has 11m diameter
K-15 has a length of 18.5m
All the diagrams show, it will be a vertical launch ....

so how we can fit 18.5m into 11m????

Did I miss something ....

I think this will address your thirst about K-15 Sagarika:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=707151

Indian Defense Review: Jan-Mar 2009, Vol. 24 (1)
ISBN 81 7062 165 8
ISSN 0970-2512

Page: 51
Shourya/Sagarika Missile
© Arun Vishwakarma
.... . . . .
Clicky...
Figure 1: Shourya and its relative size

[shyamd]

IOL said only 2 Akula's were in the negotiations in 2001

[Singha]

Oscar is the definitive ssgn if the aim is to *pound* land targets at long range and
escape before counter attack can be launched. a single Oscar armed with 72 missiles
in its VL tubes could lay waste to vital targets in a wide swathe of territory before
escaping back at high speed.

if we can get a couple, no harm in asking. we need hulls and domestic capacity is
very tied up at the moment. panda has a timetable to crush us and we cannot change
that.

[SNaik]

Yes that one unbuilt hull is what makes me think at best we may get 1 more Akula-2 , Oscar 2 class is just too huge for India needs , those are designed primarily for anti-CBG type operation , not sure what we will do with it .

You can put land-attack Brahmos on Oscar. Or 3M14 LACM. With NWH they will have range around 500 km. That's pretty good deterrent

[Patrick Cusack]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaurya_missile

range 700 km @ 1000 kg and 2200 km @ 150 kg (Thermo-nuclear warhead)[1] [2]
Speed Mach 6
Guidance
....................

Have 2 questions
1) What is the kiloton punch from a 150KG thermo?
2) How Shourya launch positions on Arihant?
3) At such speed ABMs will be in effective?
4) is range of 2000km at 150Kg enough?

[Arun_S]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaurya_missile

range 700 km @ 1000 kg and 2200 km @ 150 kg (Thermo-nuclear warhead)[1] [2]
Speed Mach 6
Guidance
....................

Have 2 questions
1) What is the kiloton punch from a 150KG thermo?
2) How Shourya launch positions on Arihant?
3) At such speed ABMs will be in effective?
4) is range of 2000km at 150Kg enough?

I have now corrected Wikipedia.

I have corrected the Wiki pages to correctly reflect Sagaika/Shourya range to 1,900 km @ 180 Kg. The previous numbers were incorrectly stated as 2,200 km @ 150 kg, and referred to my Sagaika aritcle as reference for those figures.

[Austin]

Singha , SNaik the idea is interesting but something still hits me

1 ) The Oscar 2 carries 24 Shipwreck , we do not know for now if the inclined launcher can be converted to carry 2 , 3 or 4 Brahmos each tube or Klub .

The Oscar 2 is slated for upgrade next year so we will have to see if any new missile will be carried or will carry some upgraded shipwreck

2 ) We will end up paying for such a conversion and certainly it will be costly to maintain these huge subs , even Russia is not keen to go for more Oscar 2

[csharma]

Not sure if it was posted before. Mods can delete if it is a repeat.

Full interview of Kakodkar by NDTV.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/india_jo ... arines.php

India joins elite nuclear club with N-submarines

[SNaik]

Singha , SNaik the idea is interesting but something still hits me

1 ) The Oscar 2 carries 24 Shipwreck , we do not know for now if the inclined launcher can be converted to carry 2 , 3 or 4 Brahmos each tube or Klub .

I have the understanding that Belgorod is going to have the SM-314 triple inclined launchers for Yakhont/Brahmos, at least Sevmash has payed for such launchers in 2008 and I don't see them going on Yasen.

[Philip]

The budget for operating and developing the Arihant and the future SSBNs,cannot come out of the IN's budget because it carries the nations' strategic deterrent and cannot be lumped with the IN's normal opertaions.This is why the IN was in the past pissed off with the govt. because it was using IN funds and Adm.Bhagwat wanted an audit (naturally) when no ATV was in sight.

We are told that hulls for two more subs are ready and if we concentrate upon just building our N-subs,at least 3-5 can be in service by 2020,if we launch a N-sub every two years and the next sub is launched before/by 2012.
Acquiring at least 3 Akula-2+s must be done,as with this number at least one will always be at sea and capable of attending to any crisis.With a weapon load of around 40TTs and missiles,the Akulas carry a heavy punch.It would be far better for our Akulas to carry LR cruise missiles of Tomahawk class (Nirbhay?) which have a greater range than the B'mos,whose range is limited by the MTCR.Our second line of conventional AIP subs should be tasked for this job and the B'mos Amur/Lada or the Russo-Ital design are already available.Oscars would be lovely,but I'm not sure that the IN can afford to put so much of its budget into operating this class.The IN needs both numbers and capability to deal with China and Pak.Both teh genral defence budget and the IN's share must be substantially increased for this to happen.Perhaps the British decision to build two new 60,000+t carriers to operate Harriers (upto 2018) and the JSF in the future,will spur the MOD/GOI to increase the IN's budget and acquisitions accelerating the acquisition process too.

[Austin]

I have the understanding that Belgorod is going to have the SM-314 triple inclined launchers for Yakhont/Brahmos, at least Sevmash has payed for such launchers in 2008 and I don't see them going on Yasen.

The Russian DM said they didnt need Belgorod and had kept it in cold storage , so are they completing Belgorod for RuN or some foreign customer ?

[SNaik]

I have the understanding that Belgorod is going to have the SM-314 triple inclined launchers for Yakhont/Brahmos, at least Sevmash has payed for such launchers in 2008 and I don't see them going on Yasen.

The Russian DM said they didnt need Belgorod and had kept it in cold storage , so are they completing Belgorod for RuN or some foreign customer ?

Information is controversial. The Sevmash yearly statement shows that they have purchased SM-314 launchers. One of the news releases mentioned that Belgorod may be finished for RuN with the same enhanced range missiles as Yasen.

[Austin]

The budget for operating and developing the Arihant and the future SSBNs,cannot come out of the IN's budget because it carries the nations' strategic deterrent and cannot be lumped with the IN's normal opertaions.

AFAIK the SFC does not have a capital budget of its own to purchase/operate/maintain strategic assets , hence staff and assets are seconded from IA/IN/IAF , and the maintenance and operating cost are borne by parent service.

SFC are more of nodal agency as a single point of contact for strategic asset and C&C reasons.

So unless the IN budget % goes high or the defence budget increases drastically to like 3 % plus , operating and maintaining these assets from regular budget will be impossible.

[abhiti]

Adm.Bhagwat wanted an audit (naturally) when no ATV was in sight.

If true I would fully support his sacking.

[Raj Malhotra]

Nuclear arm
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20090828261702500.htm

Both the PWRs can generate 80 MWe. Enriched uranium is the fuel that powers them. Light water acts as coolant and moderator. The Rare Materials Project (RMP) at Ratnahalli near Mysore, another DAE facility, produced the enriched uranium required for operating the two PWRs.

TSS (who actually knows the difference between MWe and MWt) has now repeated the 80MWe.
This is no DDM or typo error.

The PWR on board the submarine will be started up after about a year. By that time, the boat will be fitted with all equipment. Subsequently, it will undergo harbour acceptance and sea acceptance trials, before it is declared operational within two years from now. The submarine is about 111 metres long, 11 m broad and about 15 m tall. It has a surface displacement of 6,000 tonnes.

If the submarine is 111m x 15m x 11m then we are looking at submarine with approx submerged displacement of say 12000 tons

[Singha]

virginia @ 115m x 10m is 7800t (submerged)

[Singha]

wiki claims 3 Oscar-II class in various incomplete states. would seem like Gods plan to make available
a platform to *pound* the living crap out of land based targets or SAGs.

its worth it imo to quickly fund the completion of two Oscar's to fill out the portfolio nicely. they could
presumably take over the Sagarika role leaving our Arihants free for the real meat - A3SL.

diameter of Shaurya = 74cm, diameter of Granit = 85cm, length = 10m

--

* K-139 Belgorod, laid down July 24, 1992, is currently still on the building ways at the SEVMASH Shipyard in Severodvinsk[19]. Its construction was frozen several times due to lack of funds. Finally, on July 20, 2006, Russian Minister of Defense Sergey Ivanov announced, "The Ministry of Defense does not need Belgorod... therefore, it will not finance its further construction."[20] If the submarine is going to be finished, it is not clear who will pay for it.
* K-135 Volgograd, laid down September 2, 1993; construction stopped January 22, 1998; incomplete[21]
* K-160 Barnaul, laid down April 1994; construction stopped; incomplete[22]

--
Rus prolly has depot and heavy repair facilities in petropavlovsk/vladivostok hopefully, else its another
leg near the melted arctic seas to murmansk area...kara sea/azov sea etc...no problem for a sub.

either way, this puppy can sail close to repair depot in the yellow sea and south china sea

[ChandraS]

If the submarine is 111m x 15m x 11m then we are looking at submarine with approx submerged displacement of say 12000 tons

The 15m will include nearly 4m for the sail also. Thus the approx submerged displacement will be near the Virginia class with a dia of ~11m per Singha's post.

[Philip]

Adm."Baggy" was only asking where the money had gone,as the project had not borne any fruit then despite heavy funding by the IN.If one looks at the chronology reported,it is only during the last 10 years that the project took off once the Russian assistance was forthcoming.In addition,the IN was not in such a healthy state as it is now,with the induction of the Talwars and B'putras (that took 10 yrs. to build and were commissioned without any SAM!),upgraded Kilos,Scorpenes being built,the Gorshkov also in the pipeline and the IAC at Cochin also under construction.Apart from these,the first of the P-17 Shivaliks should finallyb be commissioned this year and more Talwars,P-28 corvettes,etc.,on order.

TYhe IN/DRDO needs to form a task force,like that created by Adm.Hyman Rickover that saw the US master nuclear sub technology and laid the foundation for the US's huge nuclear-sub navy.Rickover and Adm.of the Fleet of the Soviet Union,Sergei Gorshkov,who created under Leonid Brezhnev,a Soviet fleet that could challenge the USN,were the two most influential naval figures of the post WW2 era.Gorshkov is famous for this motto of his which he hung up in his office,"'Better' is the enemy of 'Good Enough'." This is something that the IAF should also keep in mind when contemplating their choice for the MMRCA.

Mastering nuclear naval propulsion should be one of the key priorities for the Indian armed forces,along with development of sub-launched ICBMs and LR cruise missiles,with nuclear sub building its top priority.Our nuclear subs inthe future will have some key targets like these Chinese carriers,coming into service in the future.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 90812.aspx

Excerpt:

Chinese Ski Jump Spotted
August 12, 2009: The wonders of digital photography (on the ground and from commercial satellites) provide evidence that China is testing the use of its Su-30 aircraft and a ski ramp type carrier deck design. China is expected to have an operational carrier soon, and it will be one using a ski ramp (instead of a steam catapult).....

[Gerard]

Gorshkov is famous for this motto of his which he hung up in his office,"'Better' is the enemy of 'Good Enough'."

Interesting. A sure remedy for brochure-itis

[Philip]

Has this beem posted before? Apologies if so.

"Alarmed by the massive Chinese naval build-up, India has unveiled a plan to possess three more nuclear submarines modeled on the Russian Akula class .."

http://www.centralchronicle.com/viewnew ... leID=11955

India ups ante on coastal security
Editorial Posted On Monday, August 10, 2009
India's first indigenously developed nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant (destroyer of enemies) equipped with twelve K-15 ballistic missile with a range of 700-kms was launched on July 26 by the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Speaking at the function held as part of the launching of the submarine at the Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam, the Prime Minister observed that India had finally joined the elite group of five countries, US, UK, Russia, France and China, capable of building nuclear-powered under-sea vessels.
The 110-mt long, 11-metre wide INS Arihant capable of displacing 6,000 tons of water will have to go through harbour, sea and weapons trials before becoming fully operational and this process is expected to take a minimum of two years for completion.
Designed and developed by the Indian Navy, the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre (BARC) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) with Russian assistance and participation of a number of Indian industries, the INS Arihant powered with a 85-MW miniaturized nuclear reactor can acquire surface speeds of 22-28 kmph and submerged speed of up to 44-kmph.
Incidentally, Manmohan Singh and Defence Minister Antony made a special mention of the Russian contribution that helped India realize a historic milestone in the challenging enterprise of building a nuclear submarine through the route of public-private partnership.
Significantly, the INS Arihant, which marks 25 years long diligent research work and determined developmental efforts, in the face of a global technology denial regime, was originally conceived in 1971 after China launched its own nuclear submarine. However, the development of the submarine could only be taken up in 1984 as part of the Advanced Technology vessel (ATC) project with the support of the erstwhile Soviet Union. But its break-up in the early 1990s slowed down the INS Arihant's development. Asserted Vice Admiral (Rtd) DSP Verma, who heads the ATV project, Because of the technology denial, everything was built from a scratch.
Importantly, the Prime Minister underscored the need for vigilant coastal security. Said he: The sea is becoming increasingly relevant in the context of India 's security interests and we must readjust our military preparedness to this changing environment.
Clearly, the INS Arihant has helped India take a major step towards completing the third leg of its nuclear triad the ability to fire nukes from land, air and sea. The first two legs of the triad in the form of bombers like the SU-30MKI capable of delivering nuclear weapons and Agni series of road and rail mobile missiles are already in place.
As it is, the doctrine of nuclear triad is quite crucial to India 's defence since the country has declared the no first use of nuclear weapons. By all count, our weapons system should be sturdy enough to survive the impact of a first strike for immediate retaliation.
Eventually, the US$2.9b Arihant will have its K-15 ballistic missiles (also called Sagarika) replaced by a 3,500-km range K-X class missile. This is a very big capability. It means we can launch missiles with nuclear warheads from ground, drop nuclear bombs from air and also fire them from under sea said sources in the DRDO.
As things stand now, the INS Arihant could help India possess a blue water navy capable of exercising its influence over a vast stretch of the oceanic waters. For this leviathan packed with a miniature nuclear reactor can keep moving stealthily in the depth of water for a long time.
In distinct contrast, a diesel-powered submarine which is required to move up to the surface everyday for ejecting carbon dioxide produced by the generator and recharging can easily be detected by the adversaries. Pointed out a DRDO official, the turbine operating on enriched uranium in the INS Arihant is a clean system. But a diesel generator emits carbon dioxide. You cannot discharge it into the water. So the submarine has to be brought up to the surface every day to eject carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.
Alarmed by the massive Chinese naval build-up, India has unveiled a plan to possess three more nuclear submarines modeled on the Russian Akula class under-sea vessels to realize its goal of Blue Water Navy equipped with a second strike capability.
However, India's submarine fleet pales into insignificance compared to the over 100 submarines, including many nuclear-powered submarines, being operated by the Chinese navy which is now preparing to challenge the US dominance of the global oceanic waters.
On its part, New Delhi has entered into an agreement with Moscow for the leasing of two nuclear-power Nerpa submarines for a period of 10 years. The delivery schedule of the Nerpa to the Indian navy has been hit by a mishap the Russian nuke submarine sustained during under-sea trials.
Besides, a number of Indian private sector companies have significantly contributed to the realization of the Arihant. The heavy engineering giant L&T's Hazira complex began steel-cutting for the submarines construction in 1998 when former President Kalam was the Defence Minister's scientific adviser.
According to L&T sources, its submarine design centre used the latest 3D modeling and product data management software. Launching the Arihant is a great event for the nation because we are in the select club of countries having a nuclear-powered submarine said Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, DRDO's Chief Controller (Research and Development).
The 85 MW Pressurized Heavy Water (PHW) reactor for the submarine was designed and developed by BARC. Though the country has rich experience in building PHW rectors based on natural uranium as fuel and heavy water as coolant, the reactor used in the INS Arihant utilizes enriched uranium as fuel and light water as both coolant and moderator. There is no gainsaying, this is the first time that India 's nuclear establishment has built such a reactor.
Meanwhile, Pakistan has termed the induction of INS Arihant into the Indian Navy as a destabilizing step and said it was capable of defending itself in the face of all such challenges. A statement issued by Pakistan 's External Affairs Ministry in Islamabad said, without entering into an arms race with India, Pakistan will take all appropriate steps to safeguard its security and maintain strategic balance in South Asia.
Radhakrishna Rao, -INFA

"3 mores Akulas,means a significant SSGN capability" and in all llikelihood these subs will carry our LR cruise missile with N-warheads too.This report clears many doubts.

[NRao]

Naval assets will be needed to defend economic assets ...................... and potentially extremely large ones:

FT :: Aug 12, 2009 :: How an Ambani asset could help Delhi climb out of a fiscal hole

Scroll down:

India imports more than 70 per cent of its oil, which makes it vulnerable to the vagaries of politics in the Middle East and beyond in its quest to secure energy to meet its long-term growth targets of about 10 per cent a year.

.........................................................

Help is on the way, however. When it reaches its peak output – in December 2009, according to Reliance Industries – the D6 block of the KG Basin field will double India’s existing gas production. Macquarie Securities estimates that the field’s proposed production is equivalent to 0.5 per cent of present global gas output – or one-quarter that of the Gulf of Mexico or Brazil. The field could add $20bn (€14bn, £12bn) to India’s gross domestic product and cut its oil imports by 23 per cent.

In net present value terms, it could add $59bn in taxes and royalties to the government’s already stretched coffers.

...........................

At $59 Billion a year, India could easily add the latest and greatest, every two years to its naval capabilities.

But no, let the Chai get cold, reheat it, let it get cold, reheat ............................ There is bliss in that itself.

[NRao]

And, of course, in 2050 .............. perhaps:

from the same article:

But even more positive for the government is the fact that only a fraction of the KG Basin has been explored, suggesting there could be plenty more gas in the area.

Macquarie says its research “suggests massive biogenic corridors not only in the rest of KG-D6, but across the east coast”.

Dare to think that India could, belatedly, become self sufficient in O&G.

However, the Chai has yet to come. Ordered in 2005.

[Gerard]

Naval assets will be needed to defend economic assets ...................... and potentially extremely large ones:

The Brazilian President has stated that their own nuclear submarine project is about defending economic assets

"A country with the dimension of Brazil, which has discovered huge oil reserves, that must defend its Amazon, must have a Defense strategy, not thinking about war, but thinking of guaranteeing and protecting its patrimony," said Lula da Silva.

Brazil seeks nuclear sub to defend oil, gas facilities

"Now, with 85% of oil being taken from the ocean, protection of the continental shelf requires a greater presence by the navy," said Vice-Adm. Fernando Eduardo Studart Wiemer, commander of the Brazilian fleet.

[ramana]

In India one cant say why one needs something even when the need is clear.

[NRao]

Frankly I am no expert in this O&G stuff.

BUT, even IF India can cut reliance (!!! ) on foreign oil by 50% going forward that would a huge political lift too.

Just BTW, there is another article in FT that deal with China (who else?) hording metals (in particular), with the expected intent to control market value in the future.

Telling you ................ fun times.

And, double fun when it is chai-biscut. GoI will get into the habit of having Chief after Chief making ridiculous statements.

[Prem]

Frankly I am no expert in this O&G stuff.

BUT, even IF India can cut reliance (!!! ) on foreign oil by 50% going forward that would a huge political lift too.
.

OT But
Chinese will get burnt in Commodities. The "rumor" of Gass in KG and other sites are much bigger than anything imagined so far in indian context . Its more than AOA !! Paki can dream if IPI and Uncle of Tapi , it will remain dream of them to bind the elephant .

[astal]

NRao Saar,

In net present value terms, it could add $59bn in taxes and royalties to the government’s already stretched coffers.

...........................

I have not read the article as it requires subscription but net present value is the value of an asset projected along its useful future. $ 59 Billion would be the total amount of revenues India will gain from the fields as long as they are producing hydrocarbons.
At 5 % real interest rate, (net of inflation), that would amount to about $ 3 Billion for new acquisitions and operations per year. Since one rice eater costs almost $ 700-800 million, (may be cheaper if built in numbers), the question would be, How much rice do we have? How many rice eaters can we sustain? I think this is what is holding back the netas and babus hands, apart from

LOG KYA KAHENGE

$5-10 billion is not an issue.

[Raj Malhotra]

If the submarine is 111m x 15m x 11m then we are looking at submarine with approx submerged displacement of say 12000 tons

The 15m will include nearly 4m for the sail also. Thus the approx submerged displacement will be near the Virginia class with a dia of ~11m per Singha's post.

K-15 is 10.5 m long and with its container it has to be 11m long. Which means that the double hull has to be atleast 12m high to fit in the K-15. The sail/conning tower cannot be just 3 meter high, it seems atleast 6m high to me. Hence the 15 height may be just for the highest portion of the sub to fit in K-X at the later date.

[Arun_S]

Raj Malhotra: I agree.

[Patrick Cusack]

12000 ton displacement means mean and large? That is vgood news indeed.

[Austin]

K-15 is 10.5 m long and with its container it has to be 11m long. Which means that the double hull has to be atleast 12m high to fit in the K-15.

It has a hump right

[merlin]

12000 ton displacement means mean and large? That is vgood news indeed.

Unlikely to be that high. Submerged displacement may well turn out to be around 9400 tons that has been reported before.

[SNaik]

The last two Oscars still are in pretty good shape:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... arnaul.jpg

[Austin]

So 3 unfinished Oscar 2 ( Belgorod , Volgograd ,Branul ? ) , I read that the Chinese were keen to buy or lease those ? May be use it against US CBG in Taiwan conflict ?