India tests Prithvi based ABM-3

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India tests Prithvi based ABM-3

Postby Rakesh » 01 Dec 2006 10:13


Raj Malhotra
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Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Dec 2006 13:20

I was wondering whether the ABM missile was edited out from the video released or it was just too fast and moving against the frame to be caught in camera (??)

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Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2006 13:24

any link to this video ?

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Postby menon » 01 Dec 2006 14:06

was there any reaction at all from Porkistan to teh AMB test? I googled and googled but did not find any utterance on that.

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Postby Shankar » 01 Dec 2006 14:14


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Postby Abhiman » 01 Dec 2006 14:58

IN my view, annual import of weapons of $5.5 billion may be reduced by few hundred million dollars to accelerate ABM development.

India's ABM may require only few hundred million dollars, as total cost of Arrow-2 development was $2 billion only. Same may be the reason for some delay in IGMP program because funding for the same over a generation of 24 years is only $390 million.

I think The cycle of poor allocation of funds, and subsequent delay and then more allocation of funds for imports must be broken now.
Also, test of this ABM may have negated any poltical will to import foreign systems.
Thanks.

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Postby Nalla Baalu » 01 Dec 2006 15:36

"It looks like the Prithvi and even flies like one, but that's where the semblance ends." says Mr. Raj Chegappa in his opening comments on ABM in his InidaToday article 'The New Guardian'(need subscription).

The web version of the article carries a lone picture of the said interceptor. But it doesnt 'appear' to me to be any different from regular Prithvi. Unless author of the article used a file image of regular prithvi as it is 'looks & flies' like one.

Now let me go back to continue reading the article from the second sentence.

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Postby rakall » 01 Dec 2006 15:51

Nalla Baalu wrote:"It looks like the Prithvi and even flies like one, but that's where the semblance ends." says Mr. Raj Chegappa in his opening comments on ABM in his InidaToday article 'The New Guardian'(need subscription).

The web version of the article carries a lone picture of the said interceptor. But it doesnt 'appear' to me to be any different from regular Prithvi. Unless author of the article used a file image of regular prithvi as it is 'looks & flies' like one.

Now let me go back to continue reading the article from the second sentence.


is that in the print edition of IndiaToday (also)?

anyway I dont think it will "look like one" exactly.. I am not sure if it will retain the large mid-body fins..

ofcourse if we piece together the large motor specs from DRDO techmag & the launcher photos posted by JC -- it is likely to be sleeker than Prithvi.

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Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2006 16:04

so far no real photos exist, but its unlikey to be much different from the arrow profile...a fat powerful first stage booster...and a much thinner & faster interceptor stage.

3 full sized tubes on a Tatra or 6 tubes of a thinner derivative would be useful. if the 1st stage is thinned to second stage diameter there you have a medium range SAM. and if you drop the 1st stage , you get a short range SAM.

Nrao is going to have a fun time mix-n-match :twisted:

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Postby Gerard » 01 Dec 2006 16:10

Should not the thread title be "....based ABM-3" ?

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Postby Nalla Baalu » 01 Dec 2006 16:15

rakall, I guess even print edition dated Dec 11th should carry the same text (possibly additional images?). The image they have used is that of a regular prithvi, almost identical to the one I have linked to from BR's Prithvi page.

Let me summarise what I could gather from the that article by Mr. Chegappa:

1. Interceptor tested is a precursor to an advanced defence system.

2. Interceptor code-named 'pad01' has a liquid-fuel first stage engine similar to that of prithvi and the second stage (with kill-vehicle) is a powerful brand-new solid-fuel motor with cross thrusters for termial maneuvers. The new second stage made 'pad01' longer by 1m when compared to a regular one.

3. DRDO 'claims' to have 'jointly developed' a radar for tracking missiles at ranges of over 1000 km

4. Sequence of events was: conventional prithvi lift-off > radar picks-up signal-analyses the trajectory-gives command to 'pad01' > 'pad01' lift-off > some 'pad01' terminal maneuvers > kaboomi!! (at 50 km)

5. Interception heights considered to be exo-atmospheric. So scientists stayed put inside mission control center and watched the showdown on their radars.

6. BEL developed communication network for integration of radars/interceptors/mission-control.

7. Some commentary about how this being just a proof of concept and having a long road ahead for a credible deployable system.

8. Added later: Project under Mr VK Saraswat's charge for last five years.
Last edited by Nalla Baalu on 01 Dec 2006 16:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Gerard » 01 Dec 2006 16:18

Caption suggests it is not a file photo but that looks like vanilla Prithvi.

Image
MYSTERY MISSILE: The interceptor lifting off from Orissa


The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi.
The interceptor is also equipped with terminal homing guidance system with an RF (radar frequency) seeker to detect targets at long range of low radar cross-section and travelling at high speeds
Last edited by Gerard on 01 Dec 2006 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby saty » 01 Dec 2006 16:23

Abhiman wrote:IN my view, annual import of weapons of $5.5 billion may be reduced by few hundred million dollars to accelerate ABM development.



you think all problems can be solved just by throwing money at them eh?

Also when you want to cut down on forgien import bill you are also saying that "okay Indian forces need xyz this year, lets take a risk and give them on xy, whats the big deal?"

IMVHO the indigineous development "budget" must be freed from the overall defence budget. Tying them together is going to achieve nothing more that getting armed forces even more hostile to the thought of desi stuff. We have the money as a nation lets use it.

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Postby Gerard » 01 Dec 2006 16:24

the interceptor codenamed pad01 lifted off with a roar and plume of smoke. Travelling at five times the speed of sound, it rapidly closed in on the incoming Prithvi. Two minutes later and after some mid-course corrections, pad01 detonated its proximity fuse at a height of 50 km above the Earth
Before pad01 was developed, India had a radar detection capability of 100 km. For the air defence system, DRDO claims to have "jointly developed" a radar capable of tracking high-speed missiles at a distance of over 1,000 km. They are not as yet willing to reveal identities of the key agencies that collaborated with them for its development.

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Postby saty » 01 Dec 2006 16:29

Gerard wrote:Caption suggests it is not a file photo but that looks like vanilla Prithvi.


I sure as hell cant figure out the two stages from this picture :eek: :shock: :eek:

Arun_S, JCage help!?!

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Postby rakall » 01 Dec 2006 16:47

Gerard wrote:Caption suggests it is not a file photo but that looks like vanilla Prithvi.
The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi.


Is it? First stage is liq-fuel Prithvi? if that is true it is interesting.. If Pad01 used liq-fuel prithvi as booster -- it might almost certainly be replaced with a solid booster in subsequent tests..

What is the kill vehicle? it is definitely not the 6mlong 0.8m dia new solid motor. If Prithvi is used as booster and this 0.8m dia solid motor as kill vehicle, then the length will exceed 12m.. but reports indicate missile Length 10m (in some cases 10-12m)

so the kill vehicle(KV) is something different to the 0.8m dia solid motor.
In which case if you use the Prithvi (LF) as booster stage or the new 6m long, 0.8m dia solid motor -- the length and appearence (apart from fin placement) would be nearly the same..

given the difficulties with liq fuel handling, required preparation time -- it is not a good idea for an ABM which really has to be quick-reaction projectile.. However it is still possible that DRDO could have used prithvi stage for this test on an experimental basis as they know it well - just to validate the ABM design idea and check performance of new susbsystems in the kill vehicle, but then it is definitely not a long-term solution..

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Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2006 16:53

there are upper stage rocket motors from Agni family proven and available
for future tests.

I am sure Phalcon radar is also being uprated on indian request for missile tracking. from high perch it can look deep behind ranges of intervening hills.

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Postby JCage » 01 Dec 2006 16:56

If we have the source codes for that radar, and *if* its indeed jointly developed and (hopefully) in production in India- hallelujah!!

The best local made radar to this was the 3D CAR, with a ~200km range.

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Postby mandrake » 01 Dec 2006 17:04

So this aint the pic of the ABM?

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Postby saty » 01 Dec 2006 17:08

joey wrote:So this aint the pic of the ABM?
Million dollor question aint it :wink:

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Postby rakall » 01 Dec 2006 17:09

Singha wrote:there are upper stage rocket motors from Agni family proven and available
for future tests.

.


True.. but the dia is 1m again.. so may not be the perfect bet for the kill-vehicle... they have to form the booster..

if DRDO has developed a 0.8m dia booster, they would have had a need for it.. so better put it to good use..the boosters derived from Agni or Prithvi are alright -- but 25% larger than the new motor..

god have mercy -- let the day when DRDO lift the covers a little bit to give a peek be nearer.. and BTW -- like they said after the test -- hope a lot of tests happen in the near future..

the 1000km radar bit is super-exciting

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Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2006 17:14

can someone name radars in service or development in other countries that can track missiles at 1000km ?

I guess Green pine is one.
americans have a few models used in their ABM work
japan has showed off its prototype consisting of flat panels

do the euros and russians have anything?

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Postby JCage » 01 Dec 2006 17:36

Can anyone be kind enough to id the second radar in this picture?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/ae ... tviMCC.jpg

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Postby rakall » 01 Dec 2006 17:41

JCage wrote:Can anyone be kind enough to id the second radar in this picture?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/ae ... tviMCC.jpg


Isnt that 3D CAR?

just cross-reference with this page.. i think it is the same piture they used in the Prithvi brochure.. the orientation of the flat panels is the same in both pictures..
http://www.drdo.org/labs/electronics/lrde/achieve.shtml

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Postby JCage » 01 Dec 2006 17:46

Somehow it looks different to my eyes, and similar to some sort of flat panel AESA. :-? :?:

Or am I blind as a bat? :(

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Postby merlin » 01 Dec 2006 17:54

Can JORN track missiles?

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Postby ldev » 01 Dec 2006 17:56

The news trickling out especially about the radar with the 1000km plus range suggests that the radar picked up the incoming missile while it was still in the boost phase, with a big radar cross section and relatively slow speed (since the launch site was 70km? away). There was time available to compute the incoming missile's projected trajectory and launch the interceptor. Successive successful tests of this system will allow first of all coverage of all Pakistani launches (given the distances involved). The second phase of the development will be trickier, if a missile launch occurred beyond the existing radar range (say 4000 kms away) and the radar had to pick out a warhead plus RV already already at its apogee and travelling at 4.5 km/sec. The second development will allow protection against Chinese launches. Maybe at that stage radar coverage will have to be supplemented with satellite detection (if it does not already exist).

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Postby Austin » 01 Dec 2006 18:03

merlin wrote:Can JORN track missiles?


Yeah have a look at Project DUNDEE

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Postby Anoop » 01 Dec 2006 18:10

Cross-posting my questions from WAB for the gurus here. Sorry if they are stupid - as you can tell I have no clue about these things :( .

1. The Chengappa article says that the first stage of the interceptor was liquid-fuelled. Does that rule out the Arrow theory?

2. It also says that a proximity fuse was used. So it's not a hit-to-kill vehicle as was believed on BR?

3. The photographs of the collision posted on the first thread on BR were taken after the debris of the impact re-entered the atmosphere? What about the spatial spread of the point of impact - does the point of converge maintain its integrity as the plume spreads? I ask because the Chengappa article mentions that the impact could not be observed visually or audibly due to the altitude of interception. So either the photographs were taken by satellite (in which case couldn't the collision also be observed real-time, contrary to what the article says?) or the photographs were taken from the ground after the debris re-entered the atmosphere, which leads to the question about the spatial integrity of the plumes.

Thanks.

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Postby rakall » 01 Dec 2006 18:10

JCage wrote:Somehow it looks different to my eyes, and similar to some sort of flat panel AESA. :-? :?:

Or am I blind as a bat? :(


may be just blinded by "hope" rather than anything else.

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Postby Aditya_M » 01 Dec 2006 18:32

Gerard wrote:
the interceptor codenamed pad01 lifted off with a roar and plume of smoke. Travelling at five times the speed of sound, it rapidly closed in on the incoming Prithvi. Two minutes later and after some mid-course corrections, pad01 detonated its proximity fuse at a height of 50 km above the Earth


say WHAT?!

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Postby mandrake » 01 Dec 2006 18:57

Aditya_M wrote:
Gerard wrote:
the interceptor codenamed pad01 lifted off with a roar and plume of smoke. Travelling at five times the speed of sound, it rapidly closed in on the incoming Prithvi. Two minutes later and after some mid-course corrections, pad01 detonated its proximity fuse at a height of 50 km above the Earth


say WHAT?!

yups.. quite possible, check the video.
It showed the prithvi going up then aftermath of impact (while falling).
so it can be safely said interception was out of cameras range.

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Postby akutcher » 01 Dec 2006 19:04

why dont we put a couple of these 1000km radars on our western borders already..... every plane flying in TSP should be tracked, whenever a brave muslims get airborne his RWR will make him go crazy :twisted:

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Postby SriKumar » 01 Dec 2006 19:09

joey wrote: yups.. quite possible, check the video.
It showed the prithvi going up then aftermath of impact (while falling).
so it can be safely said interception was out of cameras range.

Where's da video? Arrey koi link dena, yaar. Please post a link here. I did look for it in the previous pages...must have missed it.

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Postby mandrake » 01 Dec 2006 19:12

SriKumar wrote:
joey wrote: yups.. quite possible, check the video.
It showed the prithvi going up then aftermath of impact (while falling).
so it can be safely said interception was out of cameras range.

Vere's da video? Arrey koi link dena ...yaar. Please post a link here. I did look for it in the previous pages...must have missed it.


Sorry buddy saw it on NDTV, there are pics of frames but you cannot determine anything from there, still if you want to see it check page 5 most probably of "previous/previous" discussion means the First Prithvi ABM discussion Page.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Dec 2006 19:39

If the first stage is liquid fueled then it is equally possible that the radar is old THD-1955 3-D one or its variant (??)

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Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2006 19:47

then they wouldnt say its a co developed piece of kit. methinks it could be a green pine++ for commonality with older green pines and the newer tech in Phalcon. makes the most logical sense. second option is collab with russian for Tombstone++. TStone-1 onlee had 300km range though. small pic

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/army/rl/64n6-4.jpg

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Dec 2006 20:04

Singha wrote:then they wouldnt say its a co developed piece of kit. methinks it could be a green pine++ for commonality with older green pines and the newer tech in Phalcon. makes the most logical sense. second option is collab with russian for Tombstone++. TStone-1 onlee had 300km range though. small pic

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/army/rl/64n6-4.jpg


Could be modernized version co-developed with France

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Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2006 20:06

Anoop wrote:Cross-posting my questions from WAB for the gurus here. Sorry if they are stupid - as you can tell I have no clue about these things :( .

1. The Chengappa article says that the first stage of the interceptor was liquid-fuelled. Does that rule out the Arrow theory?

2. It also says that a proximity fuse was used. So it's not a hit-to-kill vehicle as was believed on BR?

3. The photographs of the collision posted on the first thread on BR were taken after the debris of the impact re-entered the atmosphere? What about the spatial spread of the point of impact - does the point of converge maintain its integrity as the plume spreads? I ask because the Chengappa article mentions that the impact could not be observed visually or audibly due to the altitude of interception. So either the photographs were taken by satellite (in which case couldn't the collision also be observed real-time, contrary to what the article says?) or the photographs were taken from the ground after the debris re-entered the atmosphere, which leads to the question about the spatial integrity of the plumes.

Thanks.


1. Yes. It is not a repainted Arrow. That is what BR said from day1. Also note DRDO has a tradition of using the Prithvi stage for technology demonstrators. Case in point early Agni models had Prithvi as the second stage. Maybe Saraswat's team understands the Prithvi very well. Can expect more tests to prove the kill vehicle.
2. Yes. Sort of dissappointing that it is not hit to kill. Might require fine tuning. Can expect more tests to show consistency.
3. Dont understand the question. Who can see whats happening at 50km? Other than US offcourse. Maybe thats why Kalam wants the Chandipore range upgraded.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 01 Dec 2006 20:20

The magzine vendor near my house has still not got the latest edition of India Today, So will it come out on 4th Dec only?

Somebody who has access to web edition may please email me the article druks at rediffmail.com

The BRite who is lucky to be the first to get the first print edition may circulate the scanned article for our much needed drug dose.


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