India tests Prithvi based ABM-4

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5719
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

India tests Prithvi based ABM-4

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2006 11:21

Last edited by Rakesh on 06 Dec 2006 20:57, edited 1 time in total.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 06 Dec 2006 12:09

This is to remind everyone that this thread is about: "India tests Prithvi based ABM" so please limit your discussion ONLY for the purpose.

Also caution to newbies to first read all previous threads on this subject in the trashcan and Mil History Archive, and if necessary do some Google search based study before posting on this thread.

And no one liners please.

Thank you.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1222
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Postby Sumeet » 06 Dec 2006 12:37

in another thread Arun_S had mentioned about Millimetric Wave radar for BMD purpose.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... ht=#290679

IEEE abstract on that:
Potential applications of millimeter wave radar to ballistic missile defense

Abstract: Sensors operating at millimeter wave-lengths offer a potential payoff in many areas. Because of their excellent resolution and measurement accuracy, they are particularly suitable for target and interceptor tracking, homing and fuzing, in both natural and hostile environments. Short wavelength scattering is sensitive to small details in the target configuration providing enhanced discrimination possibilities. This paper surveys potential BMD applications of millimeter waves, emphasizing those which make use of their advantages and are relatively insensitive to their disadvantages (4 refs.)

Some more info on MMW radars:
http://www.mdatechnology.net/techsearch ... icleid=588
http://www.ll.mit.edu/news/journal/pdf/ ... dradar.pdf
http://www.ll.mit.edu/news/journal/pdf/ ... efense.pdf

I will share some more info on advantages of MMW radar over microwave radars soon.

Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Postby Raj Malhotra » 06 Dec 2006 12:57

If India has got MMW for PAD then why not for Nag?

My own answer is that weight requirements of seeker for PAD were realistic and therefore they did not face the difficulties of Nag(???)

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 06 Dec 2006 13:00

Think of the cost, as well as the size constraints.

kgoan
BRFite
Posts: 260
Joined: 30 Jul 2001 11:31

Postby kgoan » 06 Dec 2006 14:31

Hi Rakesh:

The first two threads on this are in the Mil archive but the last one is in the trash can.

It would be worth keeping the last thread in the Mil archive as well, rather than throwing it away, becasue quite a few of the questions and uncertainties of the first 2 threads were answered in the third thread.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 06 Dec 2006 15:04

Rakesh: Pls archive it on the Mil archive. I will later cull out extraneous noise posts.

Thanks.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5719
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2006 20:56

Done Arun. Archived in the Mil-Tech Archive. What happened to the 1st and 2nd threads? Did you get my email on the Prithvi ABM article?

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 06 Dec 2006 21:54

Rakesh: Thanks. Pls check yr email.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 06 Dec 2006 21:58

Raj Malhotra wrote:If India has got MMW for PAD then why not for Nag?

My own answer is that weight requirements of seeker for PAD were realistic and therefore they did not face the difficulties of Nag(???)
I am reminded of similar delay in major DRDO projects in 90's while resources were diverted to the strategic nuclear projects. PAD-ABM as we know today is also a strategic systems and it came as a surprise when it unfolded. So mm wave sensor delay on Nag very likely similar.

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1717
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Postby Picklu » 06 Dec 2006 22:54

If what is said in this article
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7852
about liquid fuel is true, then it is party time folks. But the Q is is it true? How reliable Sandip Dikshit is?

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5258
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Postby Dileep » 06 Dec 2006 23:39

Raj Malhotra wrote:If India has got MMW for PAD then why not for Nag?

Let me get this straight. Do we HAVE MMW radar? I don't think so. Do we have any indication that the radio part of GP is modified? I don't think so either.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50429
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2006 00:21

Picklu the full story has many nuances. Suggest you post it to get an interpretation.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6943
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Postby Mort Walker » 07 Dec 2006 00:31

If an MMW radar does exist for PAD, then we can infer BDL & BEL are making the RF components to work in those frequencies. It would be a short order time before a MMW radar is available for Nag.

pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Postby pradeepe » 07 Dec 2006 00:44

Picklu wrote:If what is said in this article
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7852
about liquid fuel is true, then it is party time folks. But the Q is is it true? How reliable Sandip Dikshit is?


Actually from the report, the newest dimension revealed is this:
Besides, the DRDO is yet to configure target information delivery from satellites and, therefore, has to depend on ground-based radars.
:shock: :lol:
We thought an interception already moved the bar so high, think of the connotations now.

Shalav
BRFite
Posts: 582
Joined: 17 Jul 2000 11:31

Postby Shalav » 07 Dec 2006 00:51

PAD means Prithvi Air Defence?

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2745
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby fanne » 07 Dec 2006 01:47

NEW DELHI: The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists were guarded about the successful mid-air missile interception over the Bay of Bengal on November 27, but defended the interception system's capability against competing products and technologies.

A ``good beginning'' had been made but only repeated tests would prove the system's potency. Many more tests were required to intercept missiles on different flight paths. They were yet to increase the interception capability to over 50 km by changing the range parametres or putting the missile on ships. The high closing speed of the interceptor missile left very little reaction time. This implied further improvements. ``A single successful experiment does not mean deliverance,'' said a scientist. Besides, the DRDO is yet to configure target information delivery from satellites and, therefore, has to depend on ground-based radars. ``We have conducted the test to prove the technology. We are yet to convert it into a delivery system because of these reasons,'' he added.

DRDO's missile and strategic systems chief V. K. Saraswat was confident that the indigenous system was comparable to the Israeli Arrow and the Russian S-300V anti-missile missiles. Both countries along with the U.S. (Patriot) have been trying to sell their missiles to India.

``We intercepted at 50 km while the Arrow does that at 40 km. According to my interpretation, any lower than that and it will go in our landmass,'' he said. As for the Russian S-300V, ``we have studied their capability in a big way and its radars and other network cannot engage missiles of this class.''

He said the liquid fuel technology was not a drawback as in the 1950s and 1960s. A liquid fuel missile can be filled at any depot in any part of the country. ``The liquid fuel technology of today does not impair reaction time or performance. There is no handicap at all. It has an equivalent life of seven years as compared to a solid fuel missile.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50429
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2006 02:02

The bolded parts tell the story better than the report in its entirety.

The easy part first. Both Arrow and the S-300V dont work for Indian requirements. Besides the preference of 50km engagement altitude shows that they want to destroy the incoming in the high reaches and not closer to the land. Might be worried about the remedy being worse than the disease( iatrogenic ailments?)

The remark about space assets feeding the inputs shows their concern for far away challengers. The current parameters(Target velocity 5km/sec detection at 600 km) are good for nearby launch points.

The remark about high closing speed is also interesting. Maybe they want more energy in the KV for handling any deviants.

The last remark about liquid fuel shelf life is quite interesting as it means the Prithvi regmts can become ABM regmts. for near term conversion.

J Cage need to think of what spiral impact the KV technology can have on the delivery systems.

mandrake
BRFite
Posts: 280
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 02:23
Location: India

Postby mandrake » 07 Dec 2006 02:18

Another very interesting part of the story is "Naval Use", it'll be a hall of a thing even better than AEGIS and close to SM3 if done in "correct" manner. :twisted:

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50429
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2006 04:26

We seem to have missed the report from Telegraph, Kolkota
Missile defence test II

[quote]
Missile defence test II
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
New Delhi, Dec. 3: India will conduct a second missile defence test shortly, following up on the November 27 firing in which it unveiled its own missile defence programme, the director of the project said here yesterday.

The first phase of the missile defence programme will take another three years before missile scientists take a call on inducting the interceptors into the armed forces.

The missile scientist said it would take two batteries of the interceptors to defend New Delhi against a missile threat.

A battery could fire a salvo of four to six interceptors. Few countries have missile defence capabilities of their own and the US, Israel and Russia are still fine-tuning their programmes.

Vijay Kumar Saraswat, chief controller (research and development), Defence Research and Development Organisation, said the November 27 test of an exo-atmospheric missile, which hit a Prithvi missile modified as a target, will be followed up with the development of an “endo-atmosphericâ€

Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Postby Vick » 07 Dec 2006 05:54

Since the LRTRs are modded GPs, does that mean that there are only two LRTRs available?

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 06:10

Reports said we ordered two GreenPines. As of 2004, Saraswat said that India was developing LRTRs. IOW, the one used in the test could very well have been a prototype of the desi one. Also note his comments that we can now make this on our own and that it uses Indian components. The GreenPine on display does not have the standard Elta-IAI logo on its radome either.

Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Postby Vick » 07 Dec 2006 06:24

Are you refering to the CNN-IBN vid where it shows the LRTR? If in fact India has attained the capability to build 1000km range radars, that is amazing and very welcome surprise.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2745
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby fanne » 07 Dec 2006 06:26

JCage,
Do you think we have mastered the individual components? I mean if we had it must have filtered through many DRDO publications. There must be enough knowledge in the public domain to make an educated guess.

TIA
fanne

George J

Postby George J » 07 Dec 2006 06:28

Umm I know this is a tangent...but did anyone else think that VK Sarasvat ji looks more like Bappi da's younger brother with all of them bling bling and suit with no tie (and hairy chest) look complete with gold rimmed glasses? Looked less like a rocket scientist and more like a bollywood producer.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 06:29

Yup, see the image there.
Also the info board shows a range of 500km- if some gent can decipher the RCS value given below, that would be even better.

There are several reports mentioning different snippets- such as that we can now make these radars on our own, it has Indian components etc.

I am happy about the LRTR too. :)

Rajendra series production, MMR fix and CABS AWACs will round out Indian radar development, and place us on a decent footing.

John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Postby John Snow » 07 Dec 2006 06:31

Do you think we have mastered the individual components?


Dont have to. Its all in integration.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby svinayak » 07 Dec 2006 06:56


SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35893
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 07 Dec 2006 06:59

George J wrote:Umm I know this is a tangent...but did anyone else think that VK Sarasvat ji looks more like Bappi da's younger brother with all of them bling bling and suit with no tie (and hairy chest) look complete with gold rimmed glasses? Looked less like a rocket scientist and more like a bollywood producer.

delete here and take it too nukkad thread! :twisted:

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2268
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Postby Katare » 07 Dec 2006 07:27

SaiK wrote:
George J wrote:Umm I know this is a tangent...but did anyone else think that VK Sarasvat ji looks more like Bappi da's younger brother with all of them bling bling and suit with no tie (and hairy chest) look complete with gold rimmed glasses? Looked less like a rocket scientist and more like a bollywood producer.

delete here and take it too nukkad thread! :twisted:


I had the exact same thought when I saw him on CNN-IBN video, anyhow he and his ASL has delivered on a ultra strategic project, now we'll have to take Avatar hypersonic dude seriously too.

Sudhir
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 05:57

Postby Sudhir » 07 Dec 2006 07:43

joey wrote:Another very interesting part of the story is "Naval Use", it'll be a hall of a thing even better than AEGIS and close to SM3 if done in "correct" manner. :twisted:


Adds another twist to the Dansuh system and neatly answers the questions around the utility of a Prithivi on a naval platform (vs other delivery options, i.e. aircraft). Its not for surface bombardment, rather the stabilized launch system the Dansuh offers would be useful for the PAD launchers.

sunilUpa
BRFite
Posts: 1795
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 04:16

Postby sunilUpa » 07 Dec 2006 07:49

JCage wrote:Yup, see the image there.
Also the info board shows a range of 500km- if some gent can decipher the RCS value given below, that would be even better.



All I could make out was unit - KGF, that makes it Reaction Control System impulse I think.
Last edited by sunilUpa on 07 Dec 2006 08:01, edited 1 time in total.

George J

Postby George J » 07 Dec 2006 07:56

Sudhir wrote:.... Its not for surface bombardment, rather the stabilized launch system the Dansuh offers would be useful for the PAD launchers.


If that were the case then we would see the next gen battle groups with Barak NG for anti-AShM/SAM role and a littoral surface assets fielding PAD (what about AAD, thats the second line right?)? Littoral PAD will only protect coastal cities but what incremental utility is gained from littoral PAD that land/coastal road mobile PAD + AAD does not give you?

Also if sea based PAD + AAD is not littoral and is placed on frontline battleships (wow thats a lot of real estate wasted and where will the mini Greenpine + other accessories go?) what purpose does it serve it serve? Protect battle group/task force from a BM attack?

Dhanush/PAD/AAD/Barak NG make very little sense at this point in time and they are playing their cards too close to their chest (which I guess is the way it should be)

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 07 Dec 2006 07:57

Sudhir wrote:
joey wrote:Another very interesting part of the story is "Naval Use", it'll be a hall of a thing even better than AEGIS and close to SM3 if done in "correct" manner. :twisted:


Adds another twist to the Dansuh system and neatly answers the questions around the utility of a Prithivi on a naval platform (vs other delivery options, i.e. aircraft). Its not for surface bombardment, rather the stabilized launch system the Dansuh offers would be useful for the PAD launchers.
I tend to discount that because ABM inherently requires rapid firing ability. Eventual production system will IMHO has to be canisterized tube launch kind of beast.

I seriously doubt PAD going on water, solid AAD very much yes.

OTOH I believe the protection bubble of AAD will be bigger than PAD (yes I know this is contrary to all the news we have heard). It is very likely that PAD is a TD for ABM and a 1m motor will take it place and then its bubble will be bigger than AAD. JMT.

Sudhir
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 05:57

Postby Sudhir » 07 Dec 2006 08:09

George J wrote:
Sudhir wrote:.... Its not for surface bombardment, rather the stabilized launch system the Dansuh offers would be useful for the PAD launchers.


If that were the case then we would see the next gen battle groups with Barak NG for anti-AShM/SAM role and a littoral surface assets fielding PAD (what about AAD, thats the second line right?)? [deleted]....


The SPY radar on the Ageis system is used for the THAAD related targeting (it can reportedly detect space objects, debris, and satellites) - a modified Greenpine along with the satellite downlink capability mentioned in one of the articles can be used for targeting information.

In the littoral role, the Navy could place ships all along the Porki coastline and intercept Ding-Dong launches even in the "depths" of Porkistan.

In a "Blue Water" role, the Naval assets can be placed along the ASEAN / China coast to intercept Chinese launches (in addition to PAD units in the Himalaya). Not to mention if any Chinese SSBN missile launches, if our Naval units are there at the right place and time.

So a Naval PAD / AAD would supplement the land based ones.

Real estate wise, its better use for a PAD system to be onboard any naval platform from an OPV to a Destroyer or even supply ship, verses a lone Prithivi that will at most deliver 1000 KG of munitions to a range of 300 KM. In that case a Su-30 MKI or Jaguars, or the LCA would be able to drop more ordinance on target than a Prithivi.

The Dhanush is for the PAD... that is my prediction 8)

Sudhir
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 05:57

Postby Sudhir » 07 Dec 2006 08:18

Arun_S wrote:[I tend to discount that because ABM inherently requires rapid firing ability. Eventual production system will IMHO has to be canisterized tube launch kind of beast.


Not sure how the US does it with the SM-3 / THAAD thing (which I think was canceled).... but even if the PAD was canisterized, the canister would need to be on a stabilized mounting due to the liquid fuel (and slower launch speed).

Just a wild guess anyway... the canisters cannot be subject to the roll / yaw of the ship's hull - the Prithivi would probably flop into the ocean.

The SM-3 with its large solid booster base and better ability to handle aerodynamic forces (it was designed as an AAM) could probably launch at a higher speed and use its surface controls to adjust its trajectory better than a larger and lumbering (relatively speaking) Prithivi.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 08:36

John Snow wrote:
Do you think we have mastered the individual components?


Dont have to. Its all in integration.


The most crucial aspect (imho) is the software, given the effect it can have on other radar programs. Then comes the hardware, which too is important but normally takes up most of our attention. In our case, if we have #1- the comments released to the media does make me think so, and considering the industries involved, and work going on previously, high power L Band Tx/Rx modules, it bodes well for the program. I am sure that given enough time and money, Astra, HBL and BEL can indigenize the critical components. And that we could have done the signal processing ourselves after Elta shared some of their experience.
Last edited by JCage on 07 Dec 2006 08:52, edited 1 time in total.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 08:47

Sudhir wrote:
joey wrote:Another very interesting part of the story is "Naval Use", it'll be a hall of a thing even better than AEGIS and close to SM3 if done in "correct" manner. :twisted:


Adds another twist to the Dansuh system and neatly answers the questions around the utility of a Prithivi on a naval platform (vs other delivery options, i.e. aircraft). Its not for surface bombardment, rather the stabilized launch system the Dansuh offers would be useful for the PAD launchers.


AEGIS is a battle management system. Replicating it will be no joke, and it is not just the SPY series radar and the SM series missiles. Lets have some perspective guys.

Sudhir
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 06 Sep 2004 05:57

Postby Sudhir » 07 Dec 2006 08:51

didn't mention we were replicating Aegis (little joey did, but kids and their wild imaginations :P ) you know , however the PAD / Dhanush combo seems plausible for sure.

JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Postby JCage » 07 Dec 2006 08:58

I know, I should have removed your quote..

Coming to the Dhanush, still think its all that its stated for..one PAD per OPV wont be enough..


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest