President Sarkozy's Indian Visit

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 04 Dec 2010 12:52

President Sarkozy's visit to India is one that is likely to be significant. I would imagine that this visit will have more substance than the Obama visit. Not comparing the two. But the French seem to be more decisive to move the relationship to a higher level. They need it more than us just like the British.

Sarkozy is currently addressing ISRO and he is being emphatic about India's nuclear ambitions. He is asserting that what was done to India was great injustice. Calls for greater Indian involvement in Afghanistan. We cannot afford taliban to come back.

The speech at ISRO is symbolic too. While the US is still coy in working with ISRO, he is there.

He calls for India to be in the Security Council, he calls it is not imaginable that a billion people cannot be represented at the Security Council.

His interview with The Hindu also seems to indicate that he wants to move this relationship way ahead - quicker, deeper and more equal.

Thought it may be worthwhile to have a thread to cover this visit.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Dec 2010 15:30

The show is on the road.

India deserves permanent seat in UNSC: Sarkozy

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Dec 2010 17:51

Raja Ram wrote:President Sarkozy......calls for India to be in the Security Council, he calls it is not imaginable that a billion people cannot be represented at the Security Council.

Sarkozy's rationale for India's candidature to the UNSC is based on India's population count? That's a first. Based on that logic, that list should automatically Indonesia, pakhanistan, Nigeria, and Bangaladesh and throw out lightweights like France and UK.

archan · Post by **archan** » 04 Dec 2010 19:08

C'mon anup ji, you are an old hand.. that he mentioned 1B people does not mean that that is the only reason in his view. We have had a huge population for decades. If you don't have purchasing power, you will find no interest. Some things are said simply to make decorative statements IMHO.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 Dec 2010 20:16

Basic question: What exactly can France do for India that we could not get from someone else?

France wants to sell us:

1. Nuclear power plants
2. Defence equipment
3. Industrial equipment

They buy textiles and garments from us. They don't outsource/offshore. Some 600 french companies in India according to this:

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/economy/indi ... e-12-b-424

We are going to run a huge merchandise trade deficit with hem. There is no Indian diaspora in France to bridge the cultural gap.

Strategically, they are going to be of very little use except to mouth the UNSC stuff and which is safe since that is not going to happen anytime soon. If we get in a vice between the dragon and the piglet, they will order a croque monsieur and watch the action.

I am not saying there is nothing to this. I simply cannot figure what there is of consequence as with Russia or the US or even Japan eventually.

Any thoughts?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Dec 2010 22:20

archan wrote:C'mon anup ji, you are an old hand.. that he mentioned 1B people does not mean that that is the only reason in his view. We have had a huge population for decades. If you don't have purchasing power, you will find no interest. Some things are said simply to make decorative statements IMHO.

Thanks, Archan but..... The French do not care about the PPP, especialy of third world nations from my personal experience. I have been traveling there for over 20 years (pleasure and business).

Being an "old hand" on this forum hopefully allows me to be openly skeptical of things that politicians say. It may be all window dressing for many Indians to momentarily feel good about themselves but once those statements by self serving nations are analyzed carefully and deeply enough (hopefully on this forum), you have to start wondering what is it that Sarkozy really wants. What is he selling. Trust me, he is not in india to buy anything (substantial).

As a test, India should ask him to stop the supplies of submarines and nuclear technology to pakhanistan and Iran in exchange for the Eurofighter contract.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Dec 2010 23:44

Cosmo_R wrote:Basic question: What exactly can France do for India that we could not get from someone else?

They buy textiles and garments from us. They don't outsource/offshore. Some 600 french companies in India according to this:

We are going to run a huge merchandise trade deficit with hem. There is no Indian diaspora in France to bridge the cultural gap.

You are right on. If we end up only as buyers of their high tech engineering & scientific goods, we are merely subsidizing their economy at the expense of our own R&D base. I can't see how that's a good thing.

I see this relationship as being a shallow one based on one-way asymmetric trade.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 05 Dec 2010 04:23

The Hindu newspaper's interview with Sarkozy

Question: Pakistan has traditionally been a good client of France for arms purchases. You know that the Indian perception is that any sophisticated arms or equipment acquired by Pakistan is meant for use against India rather than the terrorists. Is Pakistan still a potential buyer?

Answer: …I don't want any misunderstanding here: Pakistan's priority is to combat the terrorism which takes its toll on the people of Pakistan on a daily basis. This is what is behind the cooperation between France and Pakistan in the area of security equipment. We have to be consistent. We cannot tell Pakistan “you must fight against terrorism at home” without helping it to strengthen the security capability it needs to do so. It's in this spirit and with this requirement in mind that we are helping Pakistan.

Hmmm...that explains the sale of modern submarines to PN to combat the growing threat of the tellibunny naval attacks.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 05 Dec 2010 05:03

anupmisra wrote: As a test, India should ask him to stop the supplies of submarines and nuclear technology to pakhanistan and Iran in exchange for the Eurofighter contract.

Nitpick, but that'd be Rafale.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 06 Dec 2010 08:50

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 137614.php
Comment picked up from google translate.

Go peddle nuclear civil very very expensive for a country lacking drinking water for more than half the 1.2 billion Indians, a behavior very "colonial" in the name of energy independence. India has a potential to develop other energy sources less expensive and certainly less dangerous. And Western countries are forcing the sale for their destructive technologies, be they civilian or military. It is clear that this is still colonialist policy! q it either with nuclear or GMO is a way to make these countries dependent on Western.... Here is the reality of these trips VRP State ... no!

Mr "special envoy" can remind us how many countries the promise of being a permanent member of the Security Council was made, I seem to remember:
Brazil, Pakistan, Indonesia, South Africa, Turkey, Mexico ..... , I also read that rather than contract, in good and due form, it would be simple "draft agreements "..... again, I think of these bursts sold (it seems) to the emirates, the Brazil, and tomorrow in india !!!!!!
Bah there is the visit to the Taj Mahal (he returned there today??)
All for it !!!!!! I forgot: Obama spent the last month ..... afraid he ratiboisé some contracts, the real him.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Dec 2010 18:02

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4665386

'Nuclear-powered' Indo-French ties firm up on multi-billion trade deals
New Delhi: Injecting a new impetus to their strategic ties, India and France today signed seven agreements, including one for setting up of a nuclear plant in Maharashtra, the first such pact after the end of New Delhi's isolation in the nuclear field.

PS:After his "moooning" with Carla at the Taj by moonlight and making a wish at Chisti's dargah at F-Sikri,Sarko has picked up some handsome deals for France! $25b's worth of nuclear projects,no chicken feed what? I can see a lot of bubbly being opened right now.It will overflow if he can wring some juicy def. deals as well in addition.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Dec 2010 18:24

I think we should have a general thread for all head of state visits. Chinese and Russian prez are also gonna come down

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Dec 2010 18:28

between july and dec we will have hosted all P5 presidents/prime ministers, and MMS will have met the head of the EU and Chancellor Merkel

everyone is very aware of Indian growth - economically and politically

although given that the US continues to be focused on its agenda and munna continues on his own vicious and nasty little path in his shadow, the time is ripe for more multi-polar global agenda setting

sarko and the boy wonder are prime candidates for this, with merkie and cameroon to bring up the rear

emperor hu doesnt want to be blind sided on this...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2010 01:51

Want limitless Partnership:Sarkozy

Anup and Cosmo , France has done a lot for India. Much more than US. So give it a rest and think about it.

Philip, Go back to the early days of May 1998 and Brajesh Misra's travels. It was France that tone down the G-8 message to India after the tests.

I think it has done more after that.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Dec 2010 06:32

Limitless is the amount of money they want. Multibrand retail and insurance are cash vacuums. Besides, multibrand retail is going to put the small shops out of business—no small social impact in India. They claim $10 bn in FDI waiting but they'll suck out twice that amount in no time if it's only these two sectors. Let them invest in manufacturing and I'll be convinced.

Ramana, I'm all for France. It did a lot for India after Pokhran 2. But we've given them the reactors and they will get the Scorpenes. Accounts have been settled.

I am only asking what they can do for us going forward. IOW, we have to be hard headed. No room for sentiment. The French will understand: If tomorrow, they can sell the Rafale to PRC, they will,l just as they sold the Agostas to the Pakis. After all, against US concerns they sold the Mistral to the Russians. Nothing personal, just business.

And BTW, I have to disagree that France has done more for us than the US recently (stress recently). Without the US the NSG waiver would not have gone followed by the reprocessing agreement which was by Obama's personal intervention.

India could live with France selling Rafales to the PRC but we can't live with a G2 arrangement. You may remember the shakes that GoI got when Obama went first to the PRC after his inauguration.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2010 07:03

Abhi thodi baake hain. Sabar karoji!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Dec 2010 08:42

So $20 billion worth deals made; $10b more than the deals made with Unkil Saam.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Dec 2010 08:54

^ Unkil's 10 billion does not include the reactors also MRCA contract is not yet concluded.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 07 Dec 2010 09:08

I guess a table describing the Indian deals with US, Russian and French Presidents is required and if possible a breakdown on these deals(Defense, Telecom, Agriculture etc) and their worth would give us a clear picture what world is getting from India and vice versa. Eventually statisticians of BRF can be of help in developing Pie charts and Bar graphs on an yearly basis starting from the year 2000 while we move into 2nd decade 21st century.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 07 Dec 2010 09:15

I'm surprised at the warm reception given to Sarkozy given his fundamentalist policies about Burkha and the government's electoral considerations. Also weird that no one across the political spectrum chose to make an issue of it. I'm comparing this peace to the riotous scene put on by the Communists during Obama's visit.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 07 Dec 2010 11:21

I endorse Sarkozy's policy and stand on Burkha, turbans etc.
Democracy does not mean exceptions and reservations.
Try such gimmicks in KSA etc Islamic countries.

There are core principles on which you dont compromise... this is one of them.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 13:50

France needs India to form a friendly multi-polar world. They have in mind a Franco-Germano-Russo-Indic loose alliance to ward off G2. they have 'written off' UK as unkil poodle, but are compelled to cooperate due to their physical proximity. France does not see itself subsumed into teh US world view, despite the need to cooperate with it as the lesser of two evils

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Dec 2010 14:48

Ramanna,I agree entirely,the French have been consistent friends with India and have been ferociously independent of action kowtowing neither to the US or anyone else,behaviour that one wished India (today) would emulate as it used to do when Mrs.G. was at the helm.We can expect total support from them on the UNSC reorganisation inclusive of India,plus full cooperation in defence deals,no strings unlike the US,but we must remember that it comes with a price.The willingness to cooperate even in N-sub tech has been seen in its deal with Brazil.

Ideally,I would like to see more French defence wares used by India-aircraft,missiles and subs in particular.We could do with affordable M-2000 upgrades,which if linked with a Rafale buy,could be a win-win situ for both France and India.I would not like the second line of subs to be French,Russian AIP subs with Brahmos ideally,but we could order more AIP improved Scorpenes that can carry our future LR cruise missiles,as we need to have at least 24 conventional AIP subs apart from about 10-12 nuclear boats.Replacing our old U-209s with German U-boats too would give us the best three conventional sub tech,from which we could design/coolaborate and produce an Indian design from 2020 onwards.Given the nature of sub warfare,we need a dedicated design for littoral warfare,larger ocean-going long endurance AIP subs,UUVs/midget subs,plus SSBNs and SSGNs.There has also been longstanding space cooperation with France which should be taken to even newer heights.Pres.Sarko's visit to ISRO was excellent.

One must compare Pres.Sarko's visit with that of Pres.Obama.The comparison is unavoidable.Pres.Sarko came and left without the massive security arrangements that accompanied the Mess-iah.Obama saw Humayun's tomb,the forerunner and prototype of the Taj,but Sarko and Carla Bruni saw the Taj in all its beauty! Michelle O shook a leg with students while Carla B visited AIDS patients,something that she does regularly and genuinely,because her brother died of the disease.Pres.sarko was direct,to the point and blunt with Pak,while the Mess-iah waffled and gauged the mood to make some statements that at first appeared to hold promise,but on reading Wikileaks,saw the US to be totally duplicitous! Old friend France remained true to character while new "strategic" pal the US,spoke with a forked tongue.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Dec 2010 15:33

The French are important to India simply because they are in the Western camp, unlike Russia, but relatively independent of the Anglo-American strategic world view, but at the same time more forceful in the world fighting for their own security interests, unlike Germans. Also in the past, they have come to India's support.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 15:49

ouragan, mystere IV, mirage 2000

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 07 Dec 2010 15:53

French have been presenting themselves as alternative to anglo-saxon world view since 1707... of course latin worldview too is equally alien to India.. but policy makers of 1700s n India have been promoting friendship with france since death of aurangzeb.. mahadaji shinde, nana phadnavis and tipu were most famous of them... funny how some patterns never stop recurring..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 15:56

well... france and britain were the G2 of that time!

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 07 Dec 2010 16:19

But Bussy was as trecherous as any cunning shop keepers nations best..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Dec 2010 16:37

What was most touching was Sarko and Carla's private visit to Salim Chisti's dargah at Fatehpur Sikri were they prayed for a son,while on the other hand Obama on his visit was praying only for contracts which he announced with glee to his countryfolk as if he had won a great victory and "conquered" India.

The French unfortunately during their sojourn in colonial times,were scantily supported by Paris.Had Dupleix been better served,we would've had the French as our rulers instead of the British with the fundamental difference that all Indians would've been granted French citizenship.Many residents of Pondicherry still enjoy French privileges and value their cultural ties with France.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 07 Dec 2010 16:40

But lot of DOOs would be unemployed non?

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 07 Dec 2010 16:46

RajeshA wrote:The French are important to India simply because they are in the Western camp, unlike Russia, but relatively independent of the Anglo-American strategic world view, but at the same time more forceful in the world fighting for their own security interests, unlike Germans. Also in the past, they have come to India's support.

True... But they also don't mind dealing with Pakistan and also wanted to trade in arms with China(only US intervened to stop). Plus in the past when it suited them, they did not mind shafting the Argentines in the falklands...

The French run with the hares and hunt with the hounds...

They are an important ally, But as Ronald Reagan said " Trust... but verify"!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Dec 2010 17:06

Maram wrote:
RajeshA wrote:The French are important to India simply because they are in the Western camp, unlike Russia, but relatively independent of the Anglo-American strategic world view, but at the same time more forceful in the world fighting for their own security interests, unlike Germans. Also in the past, they have come to India's support.
True... But they also don't mind dealing with Pakistan and also wanted to trade in arms with China(only US intervened to stop). Plus in the past when it suited them, they did not mind shafting the Argentines in the falklands...

The French run with the hares and hunt with the hounds...

They are an important ally, But as Ronald Reagan said " Trust... but verify"!

The French offer a value proposition. India finds it tempting and is interested. It doesn't mean other parties in the world - China, Pakistan, etc. will not be interested as well. The French did not promise us, that they wouldn't deal with others for our sake. Neither can we expect them to. If their wares and price are good, we can buy, or we buy from others.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 07 Dec 2010 17:23

Lalmohan wrote:well... france and britain were the G2 of that time!

true...

I was merely pointing towards the "khujli" in French and English musharrafs to give canadian vija to each other, whenever and wherever possible.. It was used thoroughly in Indic policy makers as long as they were calling shots.. after 1800, it was gone.. Had there been another Mahadaji Sindhia OR madhavrao-1 peshwa OR Ranjitsingh of Pune/delhi contemporary to Napoleon's zenith (1798-1815), history would have been greatly different...

With anglo-saxons in decline, Sarkozy shows similar window of opportunity... The behaviour of EU governments towards India has been that of despicable indifference after WW2.. Partially because of their own preoccupation in rebuilding the devastated countries and resisting USSR. However, even after 1990, the behaviour hasn't warmed up much..

Philip wrote: The French unfortunately during their sojourn in colonial times,were scantily supported by Paris.Had Dupleix been better served,we would've had the French as our rulers instead of the British with the fundamental difference that all Indians would've been granted French citizenship.

Philip ji, and how would that be any good for India?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 17:28

indeed
the brits and french have 1000 years of animosity between themselves, plus an entertwined aristocracy (those that survive) and much as they hate to admit it, shared linguistic and cultural roots
nowadays its a love-hate relationship tempered by a century of being on the same side

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2010 22:21

He is truly the new Napoleon of the new century.

Just as Nappy :
- he is non French origins.
- Has a visions of French primacy.
- Not to mention glamorous spouse.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 22:26

did he do his national service in the artillery?
(you also forgot short man syndrome...)

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Dec 2010 00:49

India used to be like France, a sour ungli in Unkil Saam's plans.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Dec 2010 01:26

ramana wrote:He is truly the new Napoleon of the new century.

Just as Nappy :
- he is non French origins.
- Has a visions of French primacy.
- Not to mention glamorous spouse.

So when will he meet his Waterloo?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2010 01:51

In the wikipees? After all its Water loo!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Dec 2010 21:27

For the new century, India actually needs a strategic partner with certain qualities that only the French can provide.

The French are a middle power, with the allures of a major power. They are firmly entrenched in the Western civilization, but do not play poodle to the dominating Western power combine - the Anglo-Americans. They are a UN Security Council permanent member. They have a long history in the Arab world. They have a military. Having an mind, independent of the Anglo-American combine, they may be willing to join India in West Asian and African projects, in which the Anglo-Americans may have a completely different agenda or would not be interested.

Such a partnership with France gives India a necessary EU cover to venture out militarily in the world in a coalition. In fact the French may even be willing to accept initiatives started by India.

The Russians, though supporters of India, are a bulky bear, and have too many other strategic considerations. They do not have mobility in strategic thinking. The French on the other hand are not anchored to anything. They are free to explore new paths, and paths that India would/could suggest would necessarily be new ones, at least for the Western mind. The French also have the pull to bring EU behind a certain initiative.

Indo-French collaboration has the potential to offer the world an alternate world view anchored in democratic values but different from the Anglo-American World Order.

The Russians and the Chinese can not be taken on board, because they will not really share such democratic initiatives.

The potential for Indo-French partnership will be explored a bit more in a new version of my ebook, which is an on-going Project for a New Indian Century.