Cultural Protectionism - Global & Indian Trends

[RajeshA]

There has been much discussion in various threads on several topics listed below, however sometimes these discussions have been ad-hoc, unconnected, directionless, and in the end, they may fail to create a body of knowledge useful for a single purpose - Protection of Native Cultures in India, and to resist the pressure from abroad to change Indian cultural landscape as per the wishes of external powers.

I am opening this new thread to discuss following issues

1. What constitutes Culture?
2. Which culture is native in a particular geographical area?
3. Protection of Native Cultures
4. Anti-Conversion Laws in India
5. Anders Behring Breivik's Manifesto
6. Deculturalization
7. Homogenization
8. Influence of Foreign Cultures - Movies, Press, Music, Literature
9. Cultural Marxism, Pseudo-Secularism
10. Freedom of Religion, US Laws
11. Christian Missionaries & Proselytism
12. Islamic Networks and Proselytism
13. Theological Basis for Proselytism
14. Secularism in Indian Constitution
15. Demographic Invasions - Immigration, Fertility Rates, etc.

All the above is permitted to be discussed, however it all has to be from the aspect of Cultural Protectionist Trends.

Again, the issue here is not to discuss Religion per se, or to go into theological discussion of various religions, if these are not directly concerned with influencing the cultures of others. Religion as such is to be discussed from the PoV of being a system for cultural manipulation of targeted ethnic groups.

Also the agenda is global, so please free to discuss the cultural manipulation or destruction of various indigenous cultures in Asia, Africa, North and South America, Australia, etc.

The purpose is to better understand how cultures are manipulated and transformed and to develop strategies on how to better withstand such pressures, as well as to develop a consistent philosophy, rationale and rhetoric for preservation of native cultures.

I would be grateful to all participants for their ideas and contributions. I would also hope that each participant takes special care not to post off-topic or take the discussion in a direction unrelated to the issue of "Cultural Protectionism", especially when discussion "Religion"!

I also hope to be contributing some ideas to this thread! I hope Acharya ji, Pranav ji, etc. would liberally contribute to this thread as well.

I would hope the Mods allow this thread dedicated for this purpose, but it is of course their discretion! Thanks in advance.

[RajeshA]

chackojoseph ji,

There have been some heated discussions on "Christian Fundamentalism in the West" on topics that were more closer to home in India, and did not belong there in the thread! I hope to avoid those minefields here. My main concern here are issues dealing with Non-Interference and Cultural Protection!

All over the world, one finds many different churches. Of course, Roman Catholic Church is the behemoth. Then there are several Orthodox Churches - Russia, Greek, Georgian, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc. You have the Anglican Church. Then there are the Evangelische/Lutherean Church in German speaking countries. And then come the various independent churches in USA.

My question is: Why are there no independent churches in India? Why do all churches in India have to look up to some Church hierarchy outside India? Why do churches in India have to get their financing from outside India?

If it is so easy to have one's own church, as is apparent the world over, why do Indian Christians have to remain tied to those in the West? Can't the Christians in India create their own Church, perhaps through syncretism of Indic beliefs and philosophy and the teachings of Jesus Christ!

Why do the Malankari Malayalee Christians have to have their Bishops selected by the Patriarch of Antioch sitting in Damascus? Why do the Nagas have to to be associated with the Baptists in USA? Why cannot the Catholics in India break away from Vatican, the way the Anglican Church did so earlier?

The complaint of Hindus against Christians in India is not about their right to be in India, but about

1. the heads of their churches being nominated by outside powers
2. the financing of their churches from outside India, thus allowing foreign interference in India
3. their virulent criticism about Hindu deities and Hindu customs
4. their purging of their pre-Christian and dominant culture of the land
5. their use of non-Indic names, in order to distance themselves from native identification )

One can of course allow names of the Apostles and close relatives of Jesus, for that is a tribute and not an identification issue, but that too only as long as the tribute is limited to the origin story of the faith and its founder, and not the complete history of its propagation!

Now none of these issues is insurmountable. All this can be done without leaving Christianity.

It is a question of attitude and behavior. If the Hindus feel that Christianity is a predatory ideology which

1. allows foreign powers to influence Indic society,
2. demeans the native ancient culture, and
3. distances the followers from the native population, creating bonds of identification with populations and interests outside India,

then obviously those who see themselves as the guardians of this ancient land, would object to it. Calling them Hindu fundamentalists, chauvinists, fanatics, whatever, does not absolve the Christian proselytizers from the charges against them.

Wouldn't it be better, that Christians in India themselves seek autonomy for themselves from Church hierarchies outside India, and instead of looking for distance, Christians and Hindus in India come closer to each other as we share same history and land?

[Sanku]

Great post RajeshA

[chackojoseph]

Ok,

There are independent churches in India. (Link). This will give you a lot of ideas on conversions and foreign fundings. As the article states, more than the pressure from Hindu groups, its the organised church which is in the forefront of dissuading convesions etc.

that bad part aside

Anglican Church of India (ACI) is a union of independent Anglican churches in India
Malabar Independent Syrian


Church hirearchy follows the general trend worldwide. Syro, latin etc are affiliated churches. They are very old and have a large following. Then there is a question of standardization of rituals, teaching's etc. For example, the people who migrated from Persia have formed Syro-Malankara church. There is no single answer to your question.

Why foreign funds? Because funds are needed because we runa lot of charities, programs etc. These operate in almost all parts of India and in difficult places. However, they come via many charity organisations and channeled. its because, we have one of the largest networks of charities in India.

I have mentioned that we have a great deal of autonomy on Indian affairs. We have Indianised nearly all customs, rituals etc. Bible has been translated in all Indian languages. Then there are Ashrams. Some priests have started wearing saffron robes etc.

We don't allow foreign powers to influence indic society. Infact, if we do, then church will die. Masses (the prayer ritual) is being said in multiple languages too. The Indic culture can be influenced through TV and other things. It will be wrong to blame us in toto.

What exactly is demeaning ancient cultures? Whats the example?

The 3. is actually answered. However, you wil have to come with specific examples. Whats in your mind?

The very fact that we have dented Indian culture is not right. Bulk of the keralite christians who have gone out are in Muslim Gulf. The other place is dominated by Punjabis, Gujaratis, Hindus etc. They bring the influences. ( Wiki)

Vatican has a embassy in India http://www.apostolicnunciatureindia.com/ . it is not that they are being represented through church in India.

The forced conversion we speak of is by Portughese in Goa. otherwise, all have been converts of missionaries who have come to spread the word. There was nothing forced.

There are over 17.3 million Catholics in India, which represents less than 2% of the total population (read Wiki) and we are the majority and do not practise the things you have written above.

[ManishH]

Another thing to think about is - to protect Indic culture, how much %age of energy is devoted to these two issues :

A. Exposing, blaming, analyzing proselytization
B. Spreading knowledge and practices of Indic culture amongst people

I think too much energy goes into A. and very little into B. There are reams of blogs and books on how the predatory, exclusive proselyte is targeting Indian culture. And precious little on disseminating culture amongst those gullible folk being targeted by the proselyte.

Just 1 data point:
- Proselytizing literature of "exclusive creeds" is available at very cheap price or even free in almost all Indian languages.
- If I were to seek translations of Vedas, Brahmanas Upanishads, it is comparatively fewer.

Why don't our "cultural organizations" take it upon themselves to disseminate the Indic culture more. All this exposing and blaming the predatory proselyte only creates unnecessary friction, and achieves little towards actual cultural protection.

Amar chitra kathas, chandamamas were a right beginning in that direction. But I don't see the price point even close to what a poor tribal would find worth it for his children. The same tribal has much more easy availability of proselytizing literature or even shortwave radio stations (http://www.febaradio.net).

Seeing the above, I have 2 choices

1. Froth and fume quoting stanzas from "Breaking India"
or
2. Work at spreading Indic culture using electronic media, magazines, comics, community events etc.

The battle for cultural protection will be fought by winning hearts of children, not adults. A few of us "urban dhimmis" have gotten together to do our bit this year in our native town where the so called "good news" has only recently reached.

[Arjun]

• their purging of their pre-Christian and dominant culture of the land
• their use of non-Indic names, in order to distance themselves from native identification )

Good post Rajeshji. But I would much prefer a Suzanna Roy who wears a skirt and yet has respect for core Indic values - rather than an Arundhati Roy who wears a sari and has no respect for the latter.

My point being- I am not so sure that external elements of culture such as name and clothing are anywhere close to being as important as congruity on core civilizational attributes.

Specifically on the matter of names, many would prefer that Arundhati, Digvijay and others rather NOT use Indianized names but instead use names that reflect more closely their true beliefs.

[chackojoseph]

Another thing to think about is - to protect Indic culture, how much %age of energy is devoted to these two issues :

A. Exposing, blaming, analyzing proselytization

Very good. Just analyse it. You will find the crux of the probelm. I find this funny that since 52 Ad, Christians make just 2.4 % of Indian population. We have strict procedures in place on the conditions of conversions.

[RajeshA]

Thanks Sanku ji!

------------------------------------------------

chackojoseph ji,

A Correction: I understand that 'Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church' is a autocephalous Church with a Catholicos of the East, an independent seat. 'Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church' also is independent.

The 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is however still following the Patriarch of Antioch.

However all follow the same liturgy as the Syriac Orthodox Church.

I have also noticed that even though the most followers of the Syriac Orthodox Church come from India, the Patriarchs of Antioch have invariably been from the Levant. Not to forget that there has not been a single Pope from outside Europe, even though most of the Catholics live outside Europe.

I congratulate those churches who have attained their independent status. But this alone is often not enough to hem the financing of these religious institutions from outside India. Also the question of syncretism remains open!

[RajeshA]

chackojoseph ji,

I see you have already written some on the independent churches of India! My 2nd post came later!

[Murugan]

My personal experience while dealing with Christian brethrens

The present generation - age group 15-20 do not give damn about conversion, they are open minded and secular in their approach.

The previous generation - age group 40-50 are hard core and they are actually vitiating the atmosphere deriding hindu and other cultures in India.

The age group 50-70 are more indic and truly catholic - whatever may be their dominion but they catholic in spirit. I always admire them.

The previous generation has something anti-india, pro-west in their mind. the thing is they do not hesitate to express their views thinking that hindus are pussy cats and one can go away with deriding remarks against a majority who never till date thought that even some christians are against indic values. I spend majority of my time in once-upon-a-time christian town, may be my experience is only local. But when i hear manus and babus, i think most of the christians from previous generation have degenerated.

I interact very much with one group of protestant christians from Kerala and i find their views and behavour very well balanced. But certain families of Kerala i find it disgusting when they deride India and Indic values whenever they find an opportunity.

[Murugan]

Hitherto catholic (=Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive) natured gujarati vohra community has embraced radical islam. Now you may find vohras praising osamas and jinnahs.

vohra females who used to wear saris have started wearing burkhas (but their burkhas are coloured and generally with floral designs). Deriding indic culture and values is favourite pastime - eventhough some have surnames like laxmidhar, paathak etc.

[chackojoseph]

I congratulate those churches who have attained their independent status. But this alone is often not enough to hem the financing of these religious institutions from outside India. Also the question of syncretism remains open!

Once you start digging, you will see how Indian we are. The Indian Catholic church's Indianness is something you should experience.

Muruganji,

But certain families of Kerala i find it disgusting when they deride India and Indic values whenever they find an opportunity.

I know some of them. Their ancestors (like mine) are Brahimins, Kshitrayas, jews and other upper crust dated back to 52 AD.

[RajeshA]

Why foreign funds? Because funds are needed because we runa lot of charities, programs etc. These operate in almost all parts of India and in difficult places. However, they come via many charity organisations and channeled. its because, we have one of the largest networks of charities in India.

chackojoseph ji,

thanks for your detailed response. Here I would just take you up on one of your comments.

It is perhaps taken for granted in the Christian community that they should go out and do charity, and I applaud the sentiment.

Another thing that is often taken for granted is that it is okay to receive money from outside India to do 'good' within India. Such money transactions create a dependency relationship, even if the intention of some is for doing 'good'. Subtle proselytization rides piggyback on this carrier wave of charity and humanitarian work. That proselytization is intended towards a certain faith, towards a certain sect, towards a certain group, towards a certain individual residing outside India.

It creates bonds of dependence, and it feeds an agenda of the foreigner. It gives the foreigner undue influence within the Indian society, and that too, through the institution of religion - one of the strongest means of influence over an individual.

The Indian State needs to ensure that

1. No ideological dependency is created between charity in India and funding from outside
2. No funding is allowed to religious institutions inside India from outside

A) I propose a system

1. NGOs register themselves for Humanitarian & Environmental Work
2. These NGOs register themselves as open to receiving foreign donations (indirectly, see below)
3. These NGOs are to work under full and transparent accountability standards
4. These NGOs can register themselves for operating in various regions and for various causes
5. These NGOs are not allowed to be associated with any religious institutions
   • receiving any financial support,
   • entertaining visits by religious figures,
   • visiting religious congregations
6. All foreign funding for humanitarian and environmental work is paid into a single National Charity Account for Foreign Donations
7. Every donation is marked with requests for funding some region, some cause, etc.
8. The donations are distributed by the State to all such NGOs accordingly depending on their line and quality of work

Thus the foreigners can determine where in India they can send funds (at district level), for what causes (other than ideological), but they cannot determine who gets the money to do that work, nor should they be able to determine what kind of ideological messaging is being sent to the recipients of such charity.

Mind you, there can be religion-based NGOs doing humanitarian and environmental work, but they would have to generate their funding from within the country, from organizations and individuals, who are known to not have connections with foreign religious entities (to prevent indirect funding).

So Christian organizations are free to do charity work, if they wish, but they would have to generate their resources in India itself. Same would be the case with other faiths as well.

B ) All foreign funding of religious institutions should be terminated. Not even for the upkeep of their buildings of worship, for which these religious institutions are free to approach the Govt. for upkeep of historically important buildings.

All religious institutions in India should have zero financial dependence on the outside world. Religion is far too much of an influence over the behavior and outlook of a person to allow foreign entities to manipulate it. Money is the most effective forms of influence.

Indian religious institutions are of course free to receive foreign spiritual leaders, but no money from them!

[RajeshA]

Once you start digging, you will see how Indian we are. The Indian Catholic church's Indianness is something you should experience.

I have known a Goan Christian, who was extremely anti-Indian. But then perhaps I just had the misfortune for getting to know a 'minority'!

I think, it would be extremely appreciated that just as 'Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church', broke off with the Syriac Orthodox Church in Antioch, so too can the Indian Catholics say Goodbye to the Vatican and create their own church, perhaps with a similar liturgy, but with an Indian hierarchy. If England created the Anglican Church, then Indian Catholics could try and establish an 'Indian Catholic Church', independent of the Vatican!

I think, many Indians would also very much appreciate if the concepts of Dharma and Indian Mythology would be discussed much more intensively in the Church itself, and similarities be found, and a way found to integrate the two. There are many theories of how Indic philosophies had an influence over the evolution of Christianity itself. There are also many pre-Christian European pagan customs, which are today part of Christianity, Christmas tree being one. So too can Indian customs find a place among Christians in India.

Christians in USA and elsewhere have shown that, there is a lot of potential of creativity among the Christians. Indian Christians too should explore these.

[chackojoseph]

Sir, ideally the funding part is not coming. Instead of framing policies, you show the money. If you are just debating, its nice debate.

Rest is too big for me to comment. Those are your proposals. best, submit it to the church.

[RajeshA]

Sir, ideally the funding part is not coming. Instead of framing policies, you show the money. If you are just debating, its nice debate.

Rest is too big for me to comment. Those are your proposals. best, submit it to the church.

Well BRF is a debating club, an opinion making club! Ain't it?

So that is all one gets here! Thanks for your time!

[csaurabh]

I have interacted a lot with keralite christians
Never found them 'anti Indian' or such. They are just hard working honest folks. Infact not very religious.
The main problem is with these neo-converts like tribals. They are most likely to believe in victimization complexes ( Hindus oppressed us for centuries blahblah ).

[Aditya_V]

Another thing to think about is - to protect Indic culture, how much %age of energy is devoted to these two issues :

A. Exposing, blaming, analyzing proselytization

Very good. Just analyse it. You will find the crux of the probelm. I find this funny that since 52 Ad, Christians make just 2.4 % of Indian population. We have strict procedures in place on the conditions of conversions.

You know thats a very low ball I think it is much higher, in TN, AP , Orissa, Kerala and Karnataka, many Christians belonging to the SC community still report themselves as Hindus so as not to lose reservation benefits.

In fact in AP, 2001 census put the Christian population was 12 lacs, but Christian sources themselves put the no. between 9.6% , some even claiming 19%.

Here is a link to 9.6%, the 2.4 % was 2 decades ago. I think today it is safe to say atleast 5% of the population with the population in Sount India atleast being 10-12%.Christian body demands Assembly and LS seats

Thats why since most Muslims and newly converted Christians have a fear psycosis of BJP, they will never make inroads as they have a committed voting block against them.

[chackojoseph]

^^^^ Also, the Bangladeshi's are claiming themselves as Christians in North East.

[Aditya_V]

^^^^ Also, the Bangladeshi's are claiming themselves as Christians in North East.

Where did I say that.

[chackojoseph]

^^^^ Also, the Bangladeshi's are claiming themselves as Christians in North East.

Where did I say that.

I am saying this. Not you. There is an increase in Christians in North East. Its cleared that Bangladeshi's Muslims are listing themselves as Christians.

[Aditya_V]

Ok thats news to me.

[Murugan]

Once Baba Ramdev had expressed his views on division amongst Hindu, Muslims and Christians. He said

हमारी पूजा अलग हो सकती है पर हमारे पूर्वज एक है !

Our rituals, way of worshiping might be different but we are of the same lot, our ancestors are common.

His seems to be the best effort to re-establish relations between these factions. Everyone should welcome this!

At least for his work, people have welcomed this and one may find large number of people belonging these religion supporting him or even volunteering in his work.

Similarly, in Anna's movement the following slogan is very much appreciated

अन्ना के है चार सिपाही, हिन्दू मुस्लिम सिख इसाई
(Anna has four soldiers, hindus muslims sikhs and christians)

[brihaspati]

The Portuguese are reputed not only to have done forced conversions in Goa - but also in Bengal. there was a well-known case of abduction of the heir of a local potentate in Bengal and listing all his subjects as "converted" Christians. This led to fights between two orders of the Catholic church over who gets to claim the converts - and not as to whether the conversion was legal or not. The French are also supposed to have done it in the south.

But CJ ji has a point in that it was always the disgruntled and opportunist sections of elite non-Christians, especially Hindus who proved the more aggressive and destructive neo-converts. But the fact that their personal grievances were allowed to be aired by their "converters" - and that the neo-converts converted obviously to gain military/political clout from imperialist backing against competing native factions - shows that even from the Church side, it was a conscious political decision rather than a spiritual one to convert.

[brihaspati]

Once Baba Ramdev had expressed his views on division amongst Hindu, Muslims and Christians. He said

हमारी पूजा अलग हो सकती है पर हमारे पूर्वज एक है !

Our rituals, way of worshiping might be different but we are of the same lot, our ancestors are common.

His seems to be the best effort to re-establish relations between these factions. Everyone should welcome this!

At least for his work, people have welcomed this and one may find large number of people belonging these religion supporting him or even volunteering in his work.

Similarly, in Anna's movement the following slogan is very much appreciated

अन्ना के है चार सिपाही, हिन्दू मुस्लिम सिख इसाई
(Anna has four soldiers, hindus muslims sikhs and christians)

Ironically that still upholds distinctions. Rather the slogan should have been - "Anna has one army - all of India". I do not think that either of the slogans are appropriate - and that we are giving way to a religious way of thinking which pins all hopes on a semi-divine agent and deifies him. But still the latter slogan would be preferable for me.

[chackojoseph]

But CJ ji has a point in that it was always the disgruntled and opportunist sections of elite non-Christians, especially Hindus who proved the more aggressive and destructive neo-converts. But the fact that their personal grievances were allowed to be aired by their "converters" - and that the neo-converts converted obviously to gain military/political clout from imperialist backing against competing native factions - shows that even from the Church side, it was a conscious political decision rather than a spiritual one to convert.

See, one point you can consider alienating.

1) Conversions are happening the proper way as mentioned in the article above on Independent Churches.
2) In the normal conversions, they are not converted because they have personal grievances. They have been okayed for conversion, as they have cleared the procedures and conditions laid down by the respective churches. So, if some says that I have been opressed, thats a seperate voice. Please don't mix the two. Church asks about the personal reasons they are converting and 'personal greivences' are not a reason for acceptence. It will be ridiculus. If someone is unhappy somewhere, what is the gurantee that he will be happy in Christianity?

I just want to dispel the notion that conversations are taking place because "currently" we find soft targets like tribals and dalits. I know I will be stirring a hornets nest by saying this. But, I have been doing that since past 2 days.

[shravan]

Most in South (Andhra) convert for Money & then its a Ponzi Scheme. That's what happened on my mom's side.

[chackojoseph]

Most in South (Andhra) convert for Money & then its a Ponzi Scheme. That's what happened on my mom's side.

As mentioned above, this remains to be a concern. You know, so many times I have been offfered sops to turn to other denominations. There is a group called mormon. They offered a flat in Mumbai. I did not tak ie. J/k They were actually going door to door. But, is it official stance of the church, no!

[brihaspati]

CJ ji,
in the context of my post - the historical Hindu elite conversions - some of whom proved aggressive and destructive taking out their bile on supposed previous personal issues with their native networks/families/clans. My point was that the Church "was" aware of the grievances and the essential political/military nature of the seeking a bridge with the imperialist power behind the respective Churches - and knew that the spiritual component was dubious - yet they went on and accepted such converts. This comment was not about the present.

It would be most difficult to judge on spot as to how much the person seeking conversion is motivated by social/personal ambitions and how much some genuine spiritual preference. I know that candidates are vetted. But people can recognize what they need to say or act to get entry. Even if you say that the Church does not consciously take in "personal grievances" - the detailed economic and social studies done from the Church side shows that the Church personnel on spot must be aware of the possibility, and they incorporate the "grievance" bit into an argument as to why certain populations should be the "target" for the "good news".

Moreover, the history of the Church as a whole, Christianity as a movement with its various twists and turns and its political and military past as well as present globally and on the subcontinent - is not that much available to the Indian public in general. There is little that will be available in the libraries as to negative chronicles or the view from the non-sympathetic side. Christianity is not unique in this - Islamic records are protected or kept away from general access in desh. Note that similar protection is not accorded to the Hindu. The lack of easily accessible publicly available critical material or even actual records - even the detailed theological debates, or the modern historical and archeological standpoint on the origins and further development of the various Churches - are not really practically publicly available.

This creates a wonderful ambience in which the Churches can represent themselves in ways that need not reflect or reveal their entire record, intentions, political and other ideological affiliations, or even continuing actions worldwide. I have several connections with Churches in desh, and am very much aware of the sectarianism and factional infighting. But what galled me many times was the almost complete lack of awareness and sometimes outright suppression and denial of any aspect of the Christian history - past as well as immediate before present - that points to a deep seated core political/militant drive bordering on imperialism. I have supplied material and access to academic literature that exposes the real record - and have seen astonished incredulity.

Sufis are known to have often suppressed the core doctrinal and dogmatic imperialist aspect of their faith initially when the converts were new as a generation. They revealed their fangs once the initial harvesting was done and the host society got divided politically [again each of these proselytizing methods insist on visible and social new identities to distinguish and separate the convert from host society influences - as RajeshA ji has pointed out] - and the imperialist power behind the sufis showed their military might.

[Virupaksha]

Most in South (Andhra) convert for Money & then its a Ponzi Scheme. That's what happened on my mom's side.

As mentioned above, this remains to be a concern. You know, so many times I have been offfered sops to turn to other denominations. There is a group called mormon. They offered a flat in Mumbai. I did not tak ie. J/k They were actually going door to door. But, is it official stance of the church, no!

but they allow it, dont they?? doesnt the church know how that truck loads of their cash is being used?

Isnt this a classic case of the bishops saying to fathers, here is the cash. I want x number of converts.
As the saying goes, follow the money.
That money is passing through the church's hands, I am sorry how can anyone say that the bishops and church is innocent and not complicit after saying what you said, I have no idea.

[chackojoseph]

but they allow it, dont they?? doesnt the church know how that truck loads of their cash is being used?

Isnt this a classic case of the bishops saying to fathers, here is the cash. I want x number of converts.
As the saying goes, follow the money.
That money isnt it passing through the church's hands, I am sorry how can anyone say that the bishops and church is innocent and not complicit after saying what you said, I have no idea.

Sir, Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormons .

Like you are mentioning, there is no cash like that. We don't have that kind of cash. We do not have unlimited cash. On contrary, we need aid for the charities. We need common people, bringing their families walk into an old age home, sit with those old people for some time and come out. We need people who will donate old cloths. We need people who can donate things. there are slums around where Church supports children to study, old people to get some food/medicines. The way its been put, we are having soooooo much cash that we throw them around. There are cases, as mentioned in the article above. Read that. I have already explained so much. Why come back to same point in thousand ways?

[Virupaksha]

Chackojoseph ji,

I personally know of instances where large amount of money has changed hands for conversion.

One such convert was a lady collegue of a close relative in a customer facing role. I know the figures and range in low lakhs. Dont tell that this money and patronage comes without the church higher ups knowing.

She also had to be the butt of some peculiar instances. See when she was a hindu, she was wearing the bindi and when she was converting, one of the first things she was asked was not to wear it. So when she converted she stopped wearing it and a return customer innocently asked, "Oh, I am sorry for your husband's loss" . She started wearing it back the next day

P.S: I know about the mormons.
PS2: Because my observations show me that , rice christianity is the cause of growth of christianity.

[chackojoseph]

Chackojoseph ji,

I personally know of instances where large amount of money has changed hands for conversion.

One such convert was a lady collegue of a close relative in a customer facing role. I know the figures and range in low lakhs. Dont tell that this money and patronage comes without the church higher ups knowing.

She also had to be the butt of some peculiar instances. See when she was a hindu, she was wearing the bindi and when she was converting, one of the first things she was asked was not to wear it. So when she converted she stopped wearing it and a return customer innocently asked, "Oh, I am sorry for your husband's loss" . She started wearing it back the next day

P.S: I am in US, and know about the mormons.

Sirji,

I can't comment on that even though I cannot deny as its your personal experience. But, it proves a point that money for conversion dosen't help.

If one thinks that conversions are a cakewalk, this is a lesson.

[Virupaksha]

Oh, she didnt convert back, she just only used the bindi.

rice christianity clearly worked in her case, she might wear the bindi, but her offspring - We know from many previous bishop's statements what should be our expectation.

[brihaspati]

CJ ji,
have you had to deal with the concept of "forgeries of the self" in the theological context? People imagining new "identities" for the "self" without completely replacing the previously existing one? if so, I will extract a sequence from a paper currently being discussed somewhere - where some of the ideas have been explored in the context of Christianity, and could be relevant for the process by which cultural protectionism appears as a reaction.

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji,
I was thinking of posting a sequence on forgeries of self, adoption of new identities and social reset of values which is perhaps relevant for "cultural protectionism". It is part of material from a paper being discussed somewhere. If you feel it is not appropriate here let me know.

CJ dost!
I am posting a sequence which involves a lot on Christianity to illustrate what could be a process of cultural and value changes and problems with changes of identity. Would much appreciate your feedback.

part 1.

What happens with contradictory ascriptions?

• In society, a group corresponding to a microidentity has its greatest difficulty in reconciling two contradictory ascriptions which are also advantageous to adopt in different contexts.

• For a group – this is typically solved by allowing some members to adopt one of the contradictory ascriptions while the remainder hold on to the opposite ascription. This allows the whole group to gain from both ascriptions. English subsumption of Welsh, Irish and Scottish identities helped form the British macroidentity acting as a single imperialist entity - Irish Lieutenant-governor of Punjab, India, Sir Michael O'Dyer defended English Reginald(Rex) Dyer, educated from Midleton College, Cork, in the court of Scottish McCardie who instructed the jury before trial that "where the safety of the Indian Empire was in question and through that the safety of the British Empire, perhaps it might be necessary to do things which would not be justified in other circumstances", on a libel case involving Rex Dyer's massacre of unarmed festive gathering including children at Jalianwallabag in India, purportedly in "defense" of the British empire/nation (Rex being consistently supported/ lauded/endorsed by his regiment, the British press, and even MP's -Colett).

Forgeries are advantageous

• However the consciousness of distinct Scottish/Welsh/Irish microidentities as opposed to the English, persisted, mostly in non-military conflicts. Thus here, the Irish, the Welsh and the Scotts society essentially splits into groups which opposes imperialism when applied to themselves, but supports the same when applied to other societies if it also gives economic and other advantages.

• For an individual however the tactical flexibility of splitting into groups available to society or social groups, is not available. Thus an individual has to select which one of those two contradictory ascriptions to adopt. The adoption is subject to costs – since there could be losses from one source by publicly adopting one while being penalized for adopting the contradictory one from another source.

• For the functionaries of the imperial machinery referred to in the above example, the contextual rejection or acceptance of imperialist miscarriage of justice becomes easier to juggle because the victims of the miscarriage are not seen as “belonging” or sharing in the same identity.


Group solution not applicable for individuals : Roger Casement

• For Roger Casement however the escape was not so convenient, and he had to suffer from the consequences of the dilemma of being a successful imperialist functionary in the Americas as well as being an Irish nationalist.

• In either case we see the exact process by which interactions with society forces two key ingredients of formation of forgery of the self. First, previously held values that are associated with particular ascriptions are diluted, modified, and essentially put up for sale in a virtual market of rewards, gains and penalties.

• Second the ascriptions themselves are replaced by a new one that combines the most advantageous elements of the two previously contradictory ones. Thus Irish, Welsh or Scottish imperial functionaries diluted their respective society’s resentment against imperialism (in however minuscule, unrepresented, or vocal elite dissent form) as a flexible and contextual opposition to British imperialism but not to imperialism in general. Moreover, if imperialism rewarded them sufficiently that they would have no problems in making this flexibility as an offering. This makes opposition to imperialism a commodity up for sale.

Difficulties of the self adopting new forgeries

• Both examples provide a curious result of this market process, by which a self may find it difficult to adopt new forgeries.

• In societies this is the reaction of opposing microidentities to the onslaught of a new microidentity that threatens them both. Historically, macroidentities appear to form out of threat perceptions which do not distinguish between microidentities. Thus if two groups are in conflict over a microidentity, feeling threatened without distinction by a third group can lead to the search for and formation of a macroidentity incorporating themselves into a single identity without necessarily completely erasing previous conflicts, which, however, no longer take priority in determining the nature of their mutual interactions (the pair forming an "acceptable" collection of two member identities but extending both their constructions to also include the union of their groups).

• Thus in spite of the significant amount of collaboration afforded by dominant groups in all of Irish, Welsh and Scotts societies to the English, the consciousness of distinction from the English remained and at least with the Irish it flared into a full blown independence movement. But as long as the rewards were sufficient, and the supposed threat to the common imperialist interest of holding on to the jewel in the crown loomed large – it was not that difficult for the Irish, Welsh and Scotts elite to construct a common ascription that justified imperial excesses.

• In Roger Casement’s case, the early rewards by imperialism were sufficient to overcome his nationalism, while ultimately he found it impossible to reconcile the contradiction. Casement’s ultimate choice and personal sacrifice, as well as the eventual Irish war of Independence, illustrates what happens when social or other rewards no longer compensate for the dilution and subversion of previous ascriptions that have not been completely or successfully eliminated.

• When dilutions and sale of values occur as a result of hostile invading identities, this incompleteness of replacement happens out of the inability to or conscious decision againt assimilation by the hostile, invading identity. For British imperialism, their inherent need to construct the Irish as racially inferior and unassimilable prevented complete replacement of Irish nationalism. This was almost always the story with other parts of the empire, especially after the transition to Victorian imperialism. This represents an increased cost of knowledge in facing up to the permanent hostility of British imperialist racism which would never be shed in spite of material rewards.

[brihaspati]

part 2.

Acceptance and accommodation of coexistence of multiple forgeries

• The persistence of forgeries as competing viable ascription subsets, all coexisting within a larger definition of self manifests most dramatically in multiplicities of interpretations within religions and pseudo-religions – and traditionally been dubbed as “hypocrisy”. [Barrett (1982:70-72, 850-852), Christians as “professing”, “crypto”, “nominal”, “affiliated”, “dis-“ and “doubly-affiliated”, “practising”, “non-practising”, “marginal”, “Protestant”, “evangelical”, “neo-Pentecostal”, “Anglican Pentecostal”, “Catholic Pentecostal”, “Orthodox”, “Christo-pagan,” “Catholic”, “spiritist Catholic”, and “Evangelical Catholic”].

• Redekop(1970:168) points to " the curse of Christianity" as "the Christian who can pledge allegiance to Christ and totally disregard His teachings and His life" we can interpret as that the individual is unaware of the nature of this multiplicity within the identity he has adopted formally as a Christian and that there is no inherent self-consistent mechanism within his claimed identity to rule out the multiplicities. (p. 169).

• Belgum correctly recognizes that what sets apart this coexistence and its tacit or default acceptance in the form of “hypocrisy” "is a method of dealing with sin which prevents a solution. In this sense it is the opposite of repentance and confession; like other psychological defence mechanisms, it prevents one from facing reality objectively" (Belgum, 1967:312). What Belgum is observing is the methodology by which individuals find competing and sometimes contradictory or conflicting subsets of ascriptions useful and worth retaining simultaneously.


An old problem

• It is noted even as early as the New Testament within the current tradition of religion in Europe. The writers of the Gospels claim that Jesus urged compassion and forgiveness towards “sinners” but that he explicitly and specifically condemned those who deceptively used formal and extrinsic religious practices (Matthew 23). Pippert, (1979:69) notes the Pharisees' "fervour for ceremonial purity led to an apartheid response to almost anyone who was not a part of their exclusive sect" reinforcing the "common misconception that the [religious] law only referred to external conformity and not conformity of the heart" (p. 84). The Bible emphasizes the deceitfulness of sin (Rom. 7:11; Heb. 3:13) and warns of a broad range of sources and types of delusion, but warns most stringently against the tendency to self-delusion regarding moral and spiritual issues (1 Cor. 3:18; James 1:22; 1 John 1:8), for "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9, NIV). At one level the writers of the Gospels and Pippert are simply pointing out the coexistence of multiple forgeries of the self where religious values are concerned. But at the same time by separating out different types of forgeries, and singling out only some among them as higher threats compared to the others shows an automatic process by which some forgeries are recognized as forgeries but are more acceptable or tolerable.

Gospel critiques

• The Gospel critiques provide two interesting processes. First, by highlighting the greatest danger in a forgery over religion and practice they open up all following religious institutions to the possibility of similar criticism. This leads to the generation of new coexisting forgeries where the same value is depicted as forgery only seen in the “other” and as a non-forgery in the self.

• The second process is a conspicuous absence of criticism of the forgeries of the self described in the Old Testament where Jacob impersonates Esau and Joseph masquerades as an Egyptian before his brothers (Genesis2 7, 42-45). Forgery of self as a misrepresentation of identity here is not condemned in the New Testament. Obviously the forgeries perpetrated by Esau and Joseph are not seen as a religious “forgery” and therefore not condemnable.

• That this was not an easy passage to write even in the Old Testament is seen by the appearance of justification for such forgeries in the word of God.

Critiques of forgery itself the road to further forgeries

• Thus the very critiques of forgeries of the self become the founders of a method of interweaving of forgeries by selective justification and condemnation of what essentially reduces to application of an unique value to different contexts.

• By claiming that no single value operates alone and manifests only in the context of application of other values complicates the case for forgery even further – since even forgeries then become contextual and a matter of definition of the observer or narrator.

[will continue if this is okay].

[brihaspati]

part 3
The classical European

• The expansion of the Roman empire provides ample examples of forgeries of self, where both “Romans” and non-Romans show manifestation of forgeries and their commoditization, as well as the eventual saturation and reduction that opens up the space for Christianity to occupy.

• The highly patriarchal Roman elite emphasizing overt manifestations of masculinity in its public life with strict gender roles tolerated transgender behaviour in its top leadership as in Nero. The “German” Arminius, brought up as a Roman and a Roman officer who apparently behaves as a Roman only until the point he is sent as a companion to Varrus’s ill-fated expedition through the Black forest, is another example.

• The classical Republican Roman system actually almost institutionalized the practice of multiple forgeries and their commoditization with explicit quantitative prices in sestertii, slaves, land for gaining public posts and privilege. The careers of Julius Caesar, his maternal uncle Marius, their rival the dictator Sulla, and Julius’s early collaborator and later enemy Pompey with their financier Crassus – all display the easy shedding of older forgeries and donning of new ones, with monetary prices being exchanged for such shifts of forgeries.

Medieval scenario

• Weber( 1963:251-253) indicated that devout Catholics involved in economic affairs in seventeenth century Europe continually transgressed papal injunctions and could ignore their economic behaviour in the confessional only on the basis of a lax, probabilistic morality. Business to an extent was reprehensible, so pious Jews were encouraged to perform economic activities which they, in turn, could not unequivocally perform among Jews. Thus forgeries of self on both the Christian and the Jewish side helped shape the modern economic system.

• Along the lines of Weber’s criticism, it has been suggested that organized religion often gets discredited because of the “distortion” and abusive uses of its concepts “taken out of context” to carry out atrocities and horrendous crimes against humanity or exploitative behaviour. This was a very early recognition it seems as in the description of those who like wolves in sheep's clothing, pose falsely as Jesus' followers (Matthew 7:15-23). This defence of a “core” self of religion which lends itself to forgeries is an acknowledgment that religion in itself has no inherent mechanism to prevent such forgeries. The logical conclusion from this acknowledgment is that it opens up the possibility of parts of what is claimed to be the core could itself be layered with forgeries which makes it easier to extend those forgeries and support new ones.

Problems of revelation

• The attempt to fix some religions as a revelation coming externally to the individual is therefore recognizable as an attempt to construct an unadulterable core, given the tendency of human minds to constantly play around and explore possible modifications and forgeries to gain advantages.

• However, the very process or strategy of fixing creates its own problems and adds to the multiplicity of forgeries. Out of necessity, fixing has to be done as snapshot of interpretation which must therefore be fixed in writing or recordable format, and of necessity therefore has to use imagery and language of the experience of the particular human society it is intended for. Thus what appeared to or claimed to have worked for a particular group, at a particular place and at a particular time point in history leaves its marks in the snapshot – which is then sought to be imposed on all people, at all geographical locations and for all times. Those that are “particular” cannot be separated from the “universal” and the forgeries cannot be separated from the core or original. An example perhaps would be the uncomfortable issue of “slavery” in the revealed traditions.


Public revelation of forgeries and their effects

• Garrison Keillor (1986) describes the competition between two Sanctified Brethren leaders in Lake Wobegon. In a reconciliation attempt over a dinner, a silent grace was called for which however appeared too long. The observer’s conclusion was that each was in fear of closing the prayer time by uttering "Amen!" and prove less devoted than his rival. More significantly than the actual behaviour of the brethren [which is in fact quite common where formal expression of devotion is intimately connected to power – as in the alleged fear of Soviet delegates to party congresses under Stalin to stop clapping the dictator’s speech] is the fact that the observer fails to note the social atmosphere which makes the brethren fear what they are alleged to fear. That no one from society actually points out or breaks the illusion of the brethren shows that society is itself not that uncomfortable with the obvious forgeries. There must have been some signal from society that made the brethren expect loss of prestige and power if they stopped earlier (or a lack of negative signal).

• When LaBarre (1969:131) notes the prevalence of the view that religion is "all a big Pretense and they're all a bunch of hypocrites" among college students, we should realize that the students are fusing “religion” with the “way it is practised” into an accepted ascription for the “religious”. Nonacceptance would have meant challenging such a fusion by rejecting either the “religion” (which is “false” since it is “hypocrisy”) or the practioners and the religious (who are practising hypocrisy).

• Sectarian splinter or factional groups often claim to have got rid of the hypocritical elements or forgeries of the parent ideology and structure (avoidance of use of the "church" label for fear of guilt by association - Moberg, 1984: 75, 273). Black Jehovah's Witnesses criticize the greed for money, social activities without" real religion," promises of heaven without giving help here and now, and the hypocrisy of church-goers and materialistic preachers, claiming there are no hypocrites in their own ranks (Cooper, 1974:716-717).


Public revelation as substitution and not replacement of forgeries

• What it all leads to is a representation of one forgery with another substitute. By once painting or establishing the possibility of elements or aspects of the parent to have been a forgery, unknowingly they open up themselves as also valid candidates for being a forgery.

• If the source itself could have become tainted, how can the future reconstructions guarantee freedom from similar taints?

• Thus such splinter groups actually form another method of getting the possibility of multiple forgeries coexisting in an individual or ideology acceptable as an idea or meme in the society itself.
[will post remaining parts later - hopefully this is not too much!]

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

if you consider something to be of relevance to the "protection of indigenous culture", or some threat to it, anywhere in the world, please go for it!

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji,
I believe the sequence I am posting is an attempt at understanding how - threats to indigenous culture - grows both from within as well as outside intervention. The ground is prepared for eventual elimination of the indigenous - by first installing multiple competing identities and forgeries of self, in the host population. Once the population gets saturated with such competing and "equal-equal" values, appropriate political and military interventions can help in the choice of one over all others.

Growth of tolerance for coexistence of forgeries

• Over time the acceptance grows into a type of tolerance and internalization because of opportunities they afford for gain or even entertainment (which is a kind of social reward). Berton (1965:7) refers to a sect leader who told newspaper men off the record that he "went into this God racket" because it was the easiest way to make money. Among British Pentecostalists, competition between established and emerging leaders sometimes results in verbal battles through sermons, glossolalia, and testimonies implicitly refuting the charges. The congregation enjoys the verbal battles (Martin, 1967: 137). Hamilton (1973) believes the Christian pastor is seen as either an ineffective idealist and do-gooder or as a purveyor of irrelevant religiosity and out-dated moralism. One result is that" he can hardly do anything that will not tarnish the image of the 'genuine' Christian" (p.226).

The growth of commoditization of values

• The first signs of commoditization of values which themselves appear abstract and without any concrete exchange prices are steps towards quantification of such values. In the proselytizing world, this is exemplified by the obsession with the number of “converts”. Most often the language of this quantification implicitly reveals the objectification and pricing of values – such as “harvesting of souls”, since “harvesting” is usually associated in the social linguistic mind with crops and vegetables and animals – the produce of the land, and even if it is explained as “harvest for enjoyment” or for offering to the divine, it still does not detract from the underlying objectification. Evans, (1979:301-306) criticizes "the seductiveness of effectiveness" in which merely securing the overt allegiance of a convert overrides the task of securing actual change of core viewpoints." Perhaps the most damaging.. ., this superficial disciplining may produce a kind of vaccination against the full meaning of the gospel" (p. 302).

The numbers game and enforced homogenization

• Economic growth/trade as compensation for a “few” deaths/trauma/genocide

• The process of development of exchange values for values associated with ascriptions is again exemplified by the virtual equivalence that develops in the minds of users. Berton( 1965:10-11, 100-101) challenges the Anglican baptismal service's words that "all men are conceived and born in sin":. “Enlightened priests have indicated to me that this passage does not really mean what it seems to mean. . . . But ... if the passage . . . meant something other than what it seemed to mean, why . .. was not all this stated in the clearest possible English? If the priests of the Church ... did not believe the literal truth of what they were saying, why were they required to say it? “(pp. 10-11). Berton( 1965) [existing regulations in many parts of Canada which required child adopters to prove some religious affiliation, and the erosion of the status of compulsory religious education in public schools compared to other subjects as religious establishment perpetuating “itself at the cost of the faith" (p. 74).]

• Thus in the mind of the “Anglican” priest, the “faith value” for a Christian to believe that all men were conceived and born in sin is exchangeable with another “value” that says that men were not “literally” conceived and born in sin because of the additional “profit” of families bringing their new-born child into the “Church” ritual life. The adoption case also represents an exchange mechanism by which the “profit” of getting a child is offset by the investment in pretending religious affiliation. The exchangeability is obvious to critiques as in the case of Billy Graham who is criticized by the Christian left for inadequate attention to social issues and by the right for cooperation with groups that compromise the purity of the gospel (see Dobson et al., 1986:101).

Socialization of coexisting forgeries

• Over time, this coexistence of different forgeries becomes itself part of the repertoire of forgeries that define the “self”. Thus television actor Michael Moriarty (reported by Marty, 1985) referred to his Catholic Church as having "layers of contradictions. . . . The Church is an image of humanity in its ugliness as well as beauty." Allin (1970:159) writes that "The Church is something like Noah's ark. If it weren't for the storm outside, you couldn't stand the smell inside." Both remarks indicate that an accommodation has already been made where the “Church” itself is now seen as an acceptable collective of the different forgeries.

• Liberals in the Republic of Ireland, "the most priest ridden and backward country of northern Europe," have had an "Ingrained reverence and outward mocking of the Church" (Elegant, 1972). In Sweden 98 percent of the population are affiliated with the Church of Sweden, but at least 13 percent consider themselves to be atheists or agnostics (Barrett, 1982:650), and many others are merely namnkristna, Christians in name only (Tomasson, 1970:85).

Are hard values responsible for forgeries and corruption?

• It is curious to note that sometimes a certain value itself may become so “hard” that it makes forgeries almost inevitable. For example "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" ( Matthew 7 :1-2, NIV). " making every Christian who criticizes and finds faults in others a non-Christian, " (Yancey and Stafford, 1979:152), and even challenges the Biblical condemnation of “sin” or religious hypocrisy.

Forgeries, birth and death of civilizations and ideologies

• This brings us to the mechanism by which layers of forgery are stripped off to decide on a smaller subset of ascriptions, or new identity for the self. This typically happens when the individual is almost saturated with rewards, and new forgeries of the self do not bring in positive marginal growth in net gains.

• The layers of forgeries of self accumulated by the individual builds up into a repertoire which is too expensive in terms of cost of knowledge, and not sufficiently rewarding by trading on the social market. At this stage most revolutions in ideology and religious belief starts.

• We find this pattern repeat when civilizations have reached their peak prosperity, or enjoyed it for considerable historical periods, and in a social arena where urban concentration and sophistication meets non-urban and simpler forms of social organization.

Environments catalyzing forgeries and corruption

• Urban environments are super-factories for the manufacture of forgeries of the self – because of high concentration of people and the exchange of their ideas, as well as a long tradition of being also the markets and exchange sites for economic products and commodities.

• A place where real products are easily seen as commodities and sources of profit, can also easily make the transition to commoditization of personal values and identities. Such an environment proliferates forgeries because up to a certain stage multiple forgeries can be applied to different contexts to derive profits from each such context.

• However note that each additional forgery in many individuals of a society, say each originally having n different forgeries will create a totality of (n+1)\times(n+1) dyadic interactions compared to n^{2} in the original. Taken all over society this means potentially an enormous increase in possible outcomes that an individual has to keep in mind while planning his or her social moves.

• A point is however reached where the cost of knowledge of maintaining a plethora of forgeries overcomes the rewards obtainable from trading in them, and leads to search for a simpler set of ascriptions as reinvention of the self. As is often seen in history, this comes from interactions with simpler models of social organization, as in pastoral communities interacting with centres of agrarian, industrial urban civilizations.

• To a certain extent it can also be seen as reviving the older, simpler memes of identity which remain within the collective social memory of all human civilizations. Thus new religious (or pseudo-religious like the various flavours of applied Fascism and Communism) belief systems typically all are both revolutionary as well as revivalists, because they draw on pre-existing older simpler identities but are forced to represent the same through the more sophisticated imagery and language of the present, and what they essentially achieve is a reset of the self to a new minimal core shedding some or many of the accumulated forgeries.

• Therefore our framework actually supports theoretically MacIntyre’s observation that the cumulative civilizational experience of a society or its tradition will largely determine how much new ascriptions will be adopted or accepted. This can explain the differential successes of proselytizing religions among different cultures.

• Thus when we essentially see the “fall” of a civilization but survival of the people who adopt largely voluntarily to a new ideology, it is actually a process of losing many of the forgeries accumulated in the previous civilization and stripping down to a minimal set of ascriptions to carry on building a new civilization.

Ideological inertia

• However, we must note that, what is retained and what is rejected in the new dispensation is still affected by the collection of pre-existing ascriptions. This is what perhaps appears to MacIntyre as the role of tradition in determining what changes a society will accept or adopt in ideology, and what it will be reluctant to adopt or even refuse.

• In our framework this means a contest between the different forgeries that exist within the individual, especially those that contradict the new ones, and where the replacement of the old ones by the new ones do not display obvious advantages. Thus Constantine or Charlemagne defy the Judaeo-Christian tradition of post first century theological urging towards monogamy.

Ordering between equivalents as road to commoditization

• Apart from quantification, a second indication of commoditization is by selection and ordering of values into a preference pattern, where if two values coincide one is rejected in favour of the other. In itself the ordering does not monetize or set a quantitative price on a value (in fact this could work in the other direction too by helping a recursive process of elimination of forgery induced values). But ordering also provides an opportunity to selectively devalue or enhance ascriptions against monetary or other quantitative prices. "Selective Catholicism" applies to an increasing number of American Catholics and even staff members of Catholic Charities agencies (Kelly, 1985).

Forgeries subject to bargaining

• Forgeries have always been the subject of bargaining. For example if “not lying” is a core non-negotiable value which defines a component of a person’s ascription set then “lying” should have attracted the same intensity of criticism and penalty or consequence in each case it occurs. However we find early on that “lying” was conditionally acceptable, and exchangeable for other values or even commodities. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition has very prominent examples – about saving lives, or even material property and power.

• In the modern times lying has been a subject of bargaining where the interests of money, property and wealth or political dominance have had the greatest say. So forgery or lying on oath about property led to extreme penalty for a long period in English Law whereas lying did not draw such penalties in everyday life or in other social situations – as exemplified in popular sayings like “there is nothing wrong [in duplicity or subversion of all traditional values] in love and war” and also obvious in military conflicts or combat situations. Churchill had no problem in bombarding civilian populations in Germany. Even though it could be seen as retribution for German bombing of London, Churchill should not have resorted to this if “non-targeting of non-combatants” was a part of the core value of Churchill, or even of British society.

• Conservatives and liberals are both quick to note the inconsistencies of the others. Hitchcock (1972), for example, is critical of radicals who find hypocrisy and phariseeism only among people in established positions of authority. While respecting black pride, Native American myths and customs, African Tribal religion, Buddhist rituals, and the like, radical white Catholics proud of their sophistication about the meaningfulness of all myths and customs are "wholly unable to appreciate, or even to tolerate, the folk religion of their fellow Catholics. ...Popular piety remains a large hangup.. . ; contact with its artefacts or its devotees often produces emotions of disgust and fear" (p. 92).