Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Aug 2022 12:14

The different avatars of N^3.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 04 Aug 2022 13:00

Local dealer of flying carpets.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Aug 2022 18:04

If its N^3 sir indeed, welcome back after a long time Naraswami sir

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 04 Aug 2022 21:42

nachiket wrote:... the delay in integrating an ATGM on the LCH. I would guess the integration would be necessary before the IAF accepts the helicopter?

HAL integrates the weapons chosen by the Services. In the case of selection of Air-to-Ground missiles - the HELINA is under development. The Army and IAF are also in the process of selecting longer range missiles which may possibly differ due to different range requirements of each Service. Yes, HAL has the capability to integrate the chosen missile(s) even after delivery of the LCH.

Prem Kumar wrote:...Is there any truth to the claim in The Hindu that HAL will take 2 more years to complete the RFQ process for the full production order for LCH? Isn't such a huge time-window unnatural, especially considering past delays + the fact that the birds have been tested like crazy and LSPs are being delivered as we speak?

I am not aware of further delays for Series Production (SP) LCHs. That is, unless a Service has specified some changes or additions to weapons. However, the paperwork for the contract, allotment of funds in the Capital Budget of respective Service, etc for induction of SP LCHs will take time.

naraswami wrote:^^^^
So now Ajai Shukla's commentary meet's acceptable standards of objectivity ? Or are standards/reputations a function of what point aligns with something expected ?...

In this specific case, Ajai Shukla has most of the facts right. Also, pl read what I wrote re- the HTT-40 and its earlier planned predecessor (adapting a well proven design), which was effectively torpedoed.

fanne wrote:Hari Nair sir, thanks for all the nuggets. Please feel free to post more of these (within the gambit of OSA). I am very sure, that whatever you have said is going viral.
I have a few questions
1. Can HAL on its own test any ATGM on LCH or it has to get some special permission (say from Army/mod/iaf)?
2. Some ATGMs have been tested from ALH and MI-17, how fast can it be integrated into LCH?
3. The rumor that army is not interested much in LCH because Rudra can do the same at far cheaper cost? True? Some tradeoff are obvious, Rudra does not have enough space left for transport once you load it for attack roles. Plus it looks like performance-wise, it is a notch over Rudra.
4. In the world of Manpads etc., how effective is it in the Himalayas? deserts?
5. Compared to Apaches, where it is better (in performance)

Great questions, No.s 2,4 & 5! For obvious reasons these cannot be answered in an open forum

Q1- Yes, we have the required expertise in-house and regularly use either DRDO's or a Service's firing range for testing and proving.
Q3 - The Army is in the process of taking deliveries of LSP LCHs and obviously the LCH will be evaluated for its operational capabilities in the first sqn.

bala · Post by **bala** » 04 Aug 2022 22:12

naraswami wrote:Sitara and a rushed HTT-40

I don't see why these are brought into discussions in "Light Combat Helicopter" thread, there are dedicated threads for trainers. As far as helos, HAL is on top of both design and manufacture of helos and there is more coming from HAL. Tis surprising the IA Airwing realized the worth of HAL Helos and whole heartedly accepted a large quantity of them. The Indian coast guard also accepted the helos for their ships. The reluctant ones are IAF and IN.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Aug 2022 00:41

Hari Nair Sir,

Thanks for your replies!

I am surprised by the following:

1) Is Helina is still undergoing development/testing? As early as Feb 2021, we saw the news that it has completed "user acceptance testing" and is ready for induction. Then, earlier this year, it underwent high altitude & desert testing. Why this permanent testing mode?

2) Are the Services still undecided about the ATGM they want? We have Helina/Dhruvastra & the SANT to choose from. Why not induct these perfectly decent missiles?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Aug 2022 01:26

naraswami wrote:^^^^
So now Ajai Shukla's commentary meet's acceptable standards of objectivity ? Or are standards/reputations a function of what point aligns with something expected ?

Please see Gp Capt Nair's comments again about the overall deal. Lets just say several such deals haven't exactly done the nation any favors, despite your claims of them being from some organization which proved itself and what not. They, and the people involved should consider it lucky that the nation and the forum don't tend to go into such details, out of respect for the services. Even Shukla let it slide.

However badly the optics are, I believe those delays saved HAL Aircraft Design Bureau's ass - otherwise they would have had 2 flaming disasters on their hands - the Sitara and a rushed HTT-40 when clearly in hindsight they had no capability to deliver both.

Yet, HAL did not need anyone to save its bureau's "ass" as you so colorfully put it, and has delivered the HTT which is under trials. Request you temper your language as well please, otherwise everyone follows suit and admins get blamed for extending favors to some as versus others.

To the point, though.
https://www.businessworld.in/article/Bi ... 22-431674/

The HTT-40 has received its certification six years after its first flight. The development cost has been about Rs 600 Crore ($ 77.2 Million).

“The Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) Basic Trainer Aircraft Designed & Developed by Aircraft Research & Design Centre, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is hereby provisionally cleared for its airworthiness compliances by CEMILAC.

“This Certificate is issued by Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) based on extensive design evaluation, testing of aircraft systems and comprehensive flight testing carried out by HAL Flight Operations team along with pilots from IAF,” according to the statement of certification.

The certification was handed to a group of senior technicians at a hangar at HAL Bengaluru.

“6 years from first flight we have certified HTT now to PSQR and FAR 23 standards. Been blessed to have a team which delivered and management which trusted 600 crores on us. IAF fully supportive and am sure the future 40 years belong to HTT 40,” stated Prashant Bhadoria, HAL’s Deputy General Manager Design and project manager for HTT-40.

“The project set a record as the fastest to reach certification from the first flight. HTT-40 is designed to PSQR issued by IAF & FAR 23 standards,” he added.

BTW, That HAL which has been a Navratna for decades and seems to operate under a quasi Cost+ model (no work does not mean anyone loses a job) did the HTT-40 with its own R&D funds should be considered a given or an expectation in 200X yet we go about singing paeans to it for taking such a earth shattering step.

It is a remarkable step given that HAL operates under the MOD which limits how many steps it could previously take under its own. Under the current GOI, its ability to spend its funds on its own programs has been freed up. Which is why its dedicated 10% of COS to its R&D reserve, of which it has spent 80%. This sort of freedom was not available in years prior, because of which HAL was not able to spend on its own projects.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Aug 2022 01:28

naraswami wrote:If you cannot see that its not the product, its the behavior...

I can guarantee that kind of behavior in the Western World will see that manufacturer prosecuted. e.g., see even the cloudier recent 737max issues. In the Eastern world (SU, China etc), the response has been much less benign.

Was your quoted vendor ie Pilatus prosecuted? At best, they just get blacklisted and run off from the Indian market. We lack the legal setup to actively chase after international OEMs that renege on their promises. At best, we have gone after some of the collaborators.

Example 1
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 231269.cms

The CBI is probing corruption allegations into the 2012 deal to acquire 75 Pilatus PC 7 Mk1 aircraft and the role of several top air force officers, including a former Chief of Air Staff is under the scanner with the agency seizing official files and documents related to the deal negotiations and contract signing. The defence ministry has already clamped down on an additional order for 38 of the Swiss trainers that was being pursued by the air force.

Surely, the howling hyena's of BRF dont run the GOI or the courts yet.

https://ommcomnews.com/india-news/2009- ... used-verma

A case has been registered in 2019 against Bhandari and Bimal Sarren, both directors of Offset India Solutions Pvt Ltd, as well as officials of Swiss-based plane-maker Pilatus Aircrafts Ltd over alleged irregularities in the procurement of the basic trainer aircraft in 2009.

Bhandari’s companies Offset India Solutions Private Ltd and Dubai-based Offset India Solutions FZC, as well as his associates including Verma, were named as accused in the case.

As per the case, the Indian Air Force on December 16, 2009, issued a request proposal for the procurement of 75 basic trainer aircraft and Pilatus Aircraft Switzerland was one of the bidders.

To obtain the contract, Pilatus Aircraft entered into a criminal conspiracy with Sareen and Bhandari by fraudulently signing a Service Provider Agreement with the latter in June 2010 in violation of the Defence Procurement Procedure 2008.

And
https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes ... k/88866606

https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes ... k/88866606

Sanjay Bhandari of OIS fame..

If we do more vs Pilatus, who supplies the spares..

Example 2
See details of Scorpene "TOT" in the below

“I am just completing my last of the six (Scorpene class) submarines (for the Indian Navy) in collaboration with a French company, the Naval Group. They have a style of functioning that they would not share with you: the technology,” the CMD of MDL said.

Prasad said that submarine building has two components – “knowhow and know why”.

“Knowhow means 100% absorption. In fact, after the second Scorpene class submarine, I did not need any assistance. The remaining four we made ourselves,” Prasad, a 36 plus years veteran of the Indian Navy told ET Infra on the sidelines of the trade exhibition INMEX SMM India organised by Informa Markets in Mumbai on Wednesday.

“But, if I have to build a submarine all by myself, designed by me, then there is a problem because certain components of empirical data, which they have evolved over a period of time, are not shared with us,” he pointed out.

As a case in point, he referred to missile firing, which is a mandatory requirement before a submarine is delivered to the customer.

“One of my submarines is right now at sea for missile firing to demonstrate to our customer, during which the entire range is tracked for compliance purposes. When these things come, the reference is all given by them, something which they have not shared with us. They will come with their own laptops and do it very quickly, the moment you are close to them they will shut it (laptop) down, so that does not get shared with us,” Prasad explained.

The Indian Navy also depends on them and will not accept the submarine until and unless it is cleared by the technology partner.

“So, we have been insisting on the Indian Navy, now that we have built four of them, let’s have the whole Indian Navy and the MDL component in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab to decide the firing parameters and everything and dispose them (the technology partner) off. Now, you can take some bold steps, but it is fraught with its own difficulties. Who will give guarantee and warranty, (besides concerns over) this is not there, that is not there? So, you can take a couple of bold steps, and this is what I offered to the government. I said let’s forget about that because to hire them for a couple of sorties and all that (comes) at phenomenally exorbitant costs,” Prasad stated.

Prasad also cited an incident during the pandemic when personnel from the technology partner left abruptly.

“Now, to get them back once again, with complete airfare, the cost of deputation etc is exorbitant,” he added.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2022/06 ... miral.html

Of course if India puts its foot down, it will see Rafale spares are delayed, etc. This is the challenge we face due to the force's constant desire to import, import, import. We are now beholden to multiple countries. They can advise us on everything from human rights to democracy to what not. And as it's all a cartel, they even cooperate despite being ostensible rivals, in divvying up markets.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Aug 2022 06:37

la.khan wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:So, has the gripe-fest @ BRF brought back enqyoob-al-baghdadi from his cave complex?
No, I think enqyoob-al-baghdadi sent his subordinate, a yak herder from Ulan Bator, to straighten things out @ BRF

Tier 1 aviation industry experts who have graced us with their glorious presence in multiple avatars over the decades on BRF. What I never understood is why they waste their time here. Go to India and change the system. It would be better served. And we mere mortals must *ONLY* absorb the gems of blessed info that graciously flow out from the omniscient minds of such experts, many of whom are recipients of the Charles Stark Draper prize (American engineering's highest accolade and equivalent to the Nobel). The unsolicited gyan being doled out must never be questioned. That is hara-kiri. Be thankful that His Grace is even visiting us.

The timing of this new avatar on BRF is not surprising though. NaMo wants the forces to focus on Atmanirbhar Bharat, the Tejas Mk1A beat her own timeline of her first flight by a month, the Tejas Mk2 is well on her to way to her first flight, the HTT-40 has received her airworthiness certificate from CEMILAC, the LCH and LUH are also progressing well, etc. This all causes takleef to a number of yak herders - in the you-know-where

- who are yearning for the MRFA, MRCBF, (and other such) contests to reach their logical conclusion.

By the way, has the sage dropped this particular gyan (like manna/food from heaven for us hungry mortals) on BRF yet ---> The MRFA (a second line featuring a foreign fighter to be produced in India) is absolutely vital for the future of India's aerospace industry? Because if it has not, rest assured that will come. That train is never late and is always on time. I have read it a number of times on BRF, so just asking for a friend....

And once that point has been consistently hammered on BRF, then peel the next layer i.e. only Boeing and Lockheed Martin* can save India's aviation industry (non-existent as per American standards). Attempting to do it by yourself is foolhardy and pointless. Just lean on to the largest MIC the world has ever known and you will see things that your minds would have never even conceived. That is coming...wait for it....

*Basically from the Devalok / देवलोक called Amreeka.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 05 Aug 2022 07:42

Holy cows. The Admiral firing 20mm, 70mm and ATGMs, all at once

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Aug 2022 14:51

Rakesh wrote:
la.khan wrote: No, I think enqyoob-al-baghdadi sent his subordinate, a yak herder from Ulan Bator, to straighten things out @ BRF
.

Just lean on to the largest MIC the world has ever known and you will see things that your minds would have never even conceived.
*Basically from the Devalok / देवलोक called Amreeka.

Indeed it is ., one cannot imagine how *deep* and insidious their influence is on Indian military

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Aug 2022 06:56

IAF to raise first LCH squadron at Jodhpur in October
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 826771.ece
29 Aug 2022

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... zRfxLQE_Pg ---> The Indian Air Force is all set to raise the first Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) Squadron later in October, in the western sector, most likely to be based in Jodhpur. As per reports, the Indian Army has already raised its first LCH unit, earlier on 01 June 2022 at Bengaluru.

Army Version

Photo: https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... zRfxLQE_Pg --->

Air Force Version

Photo: https://twitter.com/idrwalerts/status/1 ... zRfxLQE_Pg --->

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Aug 2022 08:41

Where are the followup orders?

What ATGM are getting incorporated?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 31 Aug 2022 10:53

They will come forth serependitiously as a consequence of the SQ /Unit formation..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Sep 2022 15:32

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Sep 2022 15:34

Should go one first page. Good to see All Up Weight (AUW) going up. At some point they need to work on a Dhruv XL 7.5-8 ton focused on Navy to compliment MH-60Rs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Sep 2022 03:54

Cybaru wrote:Should go one first page.

Done

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Sep 2022 04:05

Set to join IAF, light combat helicopters can carry out night operations
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ops-434673
24 Sept 2022

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 26 Sep 2022 05:44

Cybaru wrote:Should go one first page. Good to see All Up Weight (AUW) going up. At some point they need to work on a Dhruv XL 7.5-8 ton focused on Navy to compliment MH-60Rs.

before increasing the weight. ALH will need a new transmission optimized for the plains but i think that is not a trivial task.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Sep 2022 15:12

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1574 ... Qef-qlcncA

Coming soon to an IAF base near you in the Western sector.

The Light Combat Helicopter.

#AtmanirbharBharat

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 27 Sep 2022 15:18

https://mobile.twitter.com/gabroo1969/s ... 0048968704 ---> Production and flying at HAL's New Helicopter Factory

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 27 Sep 2022 20:16

Cybaru wrote:Should go one first page. Good to see All Up Weight (AUW) going up. At some point they need to work on a Dhruv XL 7.5-8 ton focused on Navy to compliment MH-60Rs.

But if you listen to the navy the ALH is already too heavy and large for their ships so how would an XL work?

Leaving that aside I’m not sure where the XL would come in, the NUH is meant to be a replacement for Chetak, the IMRH will be the all singing all dancing NMRH the IN wants

I’d rather they get the ALH compatible with the IN’s NUH specs (whatever they may involve) than wasting effort on another effort that will be shunned by Indian users

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 27 Sep 2022 20:17

rajkumar wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/gabroo1969/s ... 0048968704 ---> Production and flying at HAL's New Helicopter Factory

Oh wow this is Tumkur! Until now only BLR had seen LCH production.

HAL is getting serious about Tumkur and also LCH

Tumkur will be a fascinating place to see in 5-10 years

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Sep 2022 17:59

Congratulations Mr. Nair. Nice article.

https://m.rediff.com/news/special/light ... 220929.htm

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 29 Sep 2022 18:41

Indeginiously designed & developed Light Combat Helicopter #LCH has been inducted into #IndianArmy. The first #LCH was formally handed over by #HAL to Director General, #ArmyAviationCorps. Highly manoeuvrable & agile, #LCH will significantly enhance the combat capability.

https://twitter.com/adgpi/status/157546 ... ahqSmfSQCg

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Sep 2022 08:56

ashishvikas wrote:..

Jungle camo.. that's one badass bird

Can't wait to see photos of it prowling in packs.. low.. just above the treelines

And am already imagining the inflight videos. Cockpit POVs, FLIR Sensors.

(if the Army and IAF PR guys start putting regular slick videos of them up on youtube, there will be a line of future air warriors waiting to sign up)

Exciting times ahead

PS: incidentally has this predator got it's official name yet? and a BRF moniker?

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Sep 2022 11:26

Manish_P wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:..

[img

Jungle camo.. that's one badass bird

Can't wait to see photos of it prowling in packs.. low.. just above the treelines

And am already imagining the inflight videos. Cockpit POVs, FLIR Sensors.

(if the Army and IAF PR guys start putting regular slick videos of them up on youtube, there will be a line of future air warriors waiting to sign up)

Exciting times ahead

PS: incidentally has this predator got it's official name yet? and a BRF moniker?

I like VYAGHRA, sanskrit for tiger.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 30 Sep 2022 11:38

Sorry but that sounds like V**GRA !!

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 01 Oct 2022 08:06

https://www.flightglobal.com/download?ac=83735

Here's a shocker...number of Apaches in the US;
US Army -- 819
US Airforce -- 0

Seems like they have figured out some operational separation we haven't.

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 01 Oct 2022 08:54

How many with Marines?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Oct 2022 10:03

pravula wrote:How many with Marines?

USMC have the AH-1Z Viper. About 90 odd.

I know this is the helicopter forum but i can't help also note that the US Army AF have about 70 odd MQ-1C Gray Eagle UAVs.
The USAF has about 250+ MQ-9A Reapers
Going forward it is a very safe bet that the UAVs (fixed wing and rotary both) will vastly outnumber the manned birds.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 01 Oct 2022 10:36

JTull wrote:https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1574 ... Qef-qlcncA

Coming soon to an IAF base near you in the Western sector.

The Light Combat Helicopter.

#AtmanirbharBharat

That was a beautiful video. too short.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Oct 2022 11:33

Read that rediff article, koti koti pranaamam to WingCo Unni Pillai garu, but for his skill we would have lost this program.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Oct 2022 11:54

Read the article and was amazed by the fact. Even though the mechanical components of the machine were perfected with the Dhruv.

It still took nearly 10 years to perfect the machine.

The most disgusting aspect of the program is the stepmotherly treatment the services have given it.

Till date they have not decided on the ATGM to be integrated with the machine. Not hellfire.

Not spike.

Not any of the Russian missiles.

Almost, as if, they don't know what to do with the machine.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Oct 2022 12:29

Services want foreign platforms with their roles defined by foreign powers. Shows complete lack of independent thinking.

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Oct 2022 14:06

JTull wrote:Services want foreign platforms with their roles defined by foreign powers. Shows complete lack of independent thinking.

Absolutely. A true geopolitical power needs a military that can project and safeguard its ambitions. It needs a military that has strategic direction, with that would come preparedness for future projects and acquisitions.

CDS is just one step ., a university for strategic affairs and military matters has to happen with various chairs undertaking research into such., but OT

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 01 Oct 2022 16:09

Pratyush wrote:Read the article and was amazed by the fact. Even though the mechanical components of the machine were perfected with the Dhruv.

It still took nearly 10 years to perfect the machine.

The most disgusting aspect of the program is the stepmotherly treatment the services have given it.

Till date they have not decided on the ATGM to be integrated with the machine. Not hellfire.

Not spike.

Not any of the Russian missiles.

Almost, as if, they don't know what to do with the machine.

A peacetime military that has no living memory of a conventional war to speak of so they have to base their entire ORBAT around foreign OEM brochure specs

No greater example of this than the truly fantasy specs created in their SQRs that I’m sure most just laugh at in the industry.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Oct 2022 21:02

Watch "Rakhwale: भारत में बना Light Combat Helicopter लद्दाख में झंडा गाड़ने के बाद अब फौज के हवाले हुआ" on YouTube

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Oct 2022 09:45

KSingh wrote:...
A peacetime military that has no living memory of a conventional war to speak of so...

While i agree, to an extent with the second part, i would not emphasize with the above statement

Let's not forget that the Indian armed forces did fight a short but very bloody conventional conflict in Kargil

Some of the root causes of the problem is the Indian military has for decades been tied up, by the external enemy, in non-conventional counter-insurgency warfare and but even more damagingly forced, by the resident enemy, to fight with their hands tied vide non-assertive national goals, policy paralysis and deliberate economic starvation.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Oct 2022 14:29

Kargil, Balakot (plus it’s aftermath), the situation in East Ladakh, etc. etc. It is a force that lives and breathes offensive operations.