INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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dinesha
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

PM to dedicate Tarapur nuke reprocessing unit next week
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ek/420362/
Amidst controversy over the 10,000 Mw Jaitapur nuclear power project in Maharashtra’s Ratnagiri district, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would formally dedicate a reprocessing unit at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre’s (Barc) Tarapur facility in Thane district.

The function is being organised by Barc during the PM’s visit to Mumbai slated for January 7. The plant, commissioned in October, would have an annual capacity of 100 tonnes to reprocess spent fuel.

The plant is for indigenous nuclear reactors and is not under any foreign safeguard agreement. The reprocessed spent fuel would be re-used as fuel and for medical and other purposes.

Currently, there are three reprocessing units, at Tarapur, Trombay (a suburb of this city) and Kalpakkam, near Chennai, with a total reprocessing capacity of 230 tonnes, none of which are under safeguard watch.

A Barc official told Business Standard, “As part of the commissioning process in October, the cold trial run of the plant has been started, with the use of inactive natural uranium-based fuel in place of spent fuel, which will follow later.”

The PM would also visit the Tarapur nuclear power plant. It has four units, with a combined capacity of 1,400 Mw.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by JTull »

Thanks Manne. Are you in town or back in India?

dinesha,

the 540MWe reactor core is the same as the 700MWe. The difference is in the heat transfer circuits by allowing a bit of 'wet' steam to increase efficiency.

To outsiders, the words 'nuclear power plant' and 'nuclear reactor' can be used interchangeably. The truth is different.

The reactors (core + safety equipment) are not 'designed' by NPCIL. The power plant has lot of systems that are designed by NPCIL, as they are the engineers with experience of doing so. BARC scientists don't have any experience with operating power plants.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ashokpachori »

Atomic Energy Establishment, Trombay has already made its impressions in the world of science as one of the unique nuclear research institution where high quality research and development is taking place in the areas of nuclear reactor design and installation, fuel fabrication, chemical processing of depleted fuel and also acquired sufficient expertise in the development of radioisotope application techniques in medicine, agriculture and industries.
http://www.barc.ernet.in/about/
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ashokpachori »

the 540MWe reactor core is the same as the 700MWe

The configuration perhaps, but the burn up rate ought to be different, aint it?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Yagnasri »

how good of we in study supply of fuel to nuclear subs. I mean they need to refueled on in 10 or 15 years or what. Do we have that kind of stock to provide say a dozen arihants of any other versions of arihanths?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by JTull »

Narayana Rao wrote:how good of we in study supply of fuel to nuclear subs. I mean they need to refueled on in 10 or 15 years or what. Do we have that kind of stock to provide say a dozen arihants of any other versions of arihanths?
That's why the civilian nuclear deal so important. We don't have enough to grow the civilian sector and also military arsenal including nuclear subs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by D Roy »

Burn-up refers to the number of fission events in the core. And that is not the crux here. Burn-up depends on the design fuel and given that natural uranium is used even in this design it is likely to be the same given the core assembly. Although flux flattening can sometimes lead to a loss in overall burn-up.

If and when Slightly enriched uranium ( SEU not LEU) is loaded onto this design the burn-up will increase.

As JTull has pointed out the 700 MWe uses the same core as the Tarapur 3 and 4. It has 392 coolant channels with each channel housing 13 bundles of 37 elements each.

The power output is enhanced in this case by utilizing margin in the fuel linear heat rating and further flux flattening. Getting this additional heat out is achieved by allowing
the coolant to boil near the channel exit. This allows the
same reactor assembly and the same primary coolant loop to deliver the thermal equivalent of 700 MWe. Of that takeway 60 MWe for auxiliary purposes. SO net power rating relevant to the grid is 640 MWe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I am sick of this " mummy mummy who designs HWRs in India" debate. this discussion of who "precisely" *designed* it is ludicrous. A lot goes into design - there are several problem solving stages which require continuous consultation. The following are *all* working on HWR R&D and they work together.

– Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
– NPCIL R&D (Technology Development)
– NPCIL R&D (Electronic systems)
– NPCIL R&D Centre at TAPS
– Educational institutes and research labs
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by nits »

In a year, India will have nuclear triad: Navy chief
Only three countries, US, Russia and China, can be said to have fully-operational nuclear weapon triads -- the capability to fire nuclear-tipped missiles from land, air and sea. India will gatecrash into this highly-exclusive club by 2012.

Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma, not given to making dramatic statements, said the triad will be complete once its crucial underwater leg, the country's first indigenous nuclear submarine aptly named INS Arihant or the "destroyer of enemies", is commissioned towards late-2011 or early-2012. The land and air legs are already in place with the Agni family of road and rail-mobile ballistic missiles as well as fighter jets like Mirage-2000s and Sukhoi-30MKIs jury-rigged to deliver nuclear weapons.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^
Does this mean Arhiants will undergo sea-trials before Q4-2011 or Q1-2012 ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

since sea trials last a year atleast, IOC in 1Q2012 means sea trials need to start in 1Q2011 .. ie less than a year from now....being the 1st effort some problems are likely to be found and ship brought back to fix them... so HT (harbour trial) probably needs to start within few months and reactor made critical and turbine connected to propulsion eqpt.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Tanaji »

So how does the command and control thing work for Arihant? We loudly tom tom that our nuclear cores are not mated with the warheads. But the naval chief has said Arihant will be on deterrence patrol. So for that to be true, it automatically implies the warheads are mated to the cores. Then the logical conclusion is that there must exist some sort of devolved authority: either we have the US model where the sub commander launches by code authentication (further implies we have ELF type comm links ready) or we have the UK model which has authentication AND has the authority to launch on his own.

It is interesting that a fundamental shift in posture has been made but no publicity given yet. Is the DND going to be updated?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by merlin »

Tanaji wrote:So how does the command and control thing work for Arihant? We loudly tom tom that our nuclear cores are not mated with the warheads. But the naval chief has said Arihant will be on deterrence patrol. So for that to be true, it automatically implies the warheads are mated to the cores. Then the logical conclusion is that there must exist some sort of devolved authority: either we have the US model where the sub commander launches by code authentication (further implies we have ELF type comm links ready) or we have the UK model which has authentication AND has the authority to launch on his own.

It is interesting that a fundamental shift in posture has been made but no publicity given yet. Is the DND going to be updated?
No shift in posture has been made yet. Or are you forgetting that Arihant is not operational yet? In typical Indian fashion we will have something in place by the time Arihant is operational and actively doing deterrence patrols.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Tanaji »

^^ True that its not operational, but I am sure you realize these things take time to be developed. So changes to the posture are being made *now* in anticipation so that we are ready by the time Arihant is operational. Typically these things take years to be fine tuned.... There are tons of fine details and scenarios to be accounted for once you have a boat with mated warheads on patrol.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

there is no chance of mating the warheads onboard the sub - whatever goes in from above into the sealed tubes dockside is all there is. so a deterrent patrol automatically 101% implies mated n-warhead & missile.

to my knowledge, we do not have a ELF facility (only US has one in minnesota and Rus probably has one in siberia somewhere)..but we do have VLF stations. the diff seems to be ability to communicate to deeper submerged subs in the ELF case. in both cases, the sub has to get a few bytes of code calling it to periscope depth wherein it raises a satcom mast and gets the full message. if its for launch, I think it submerges deep again to complete launch prep (15 mins?) quietly before coming up again to missile firing depth.

all this is totally unscientific observations based on reading war novels and 'crimson tide' - so add salt to taste saar.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

web sources claim we have one in kolkata and one near kanyamukari.

here a VLF "ham" operator lists what he knows...kinda the "SOC" of VLF if you know what I mean
http://www.smeter.net/stations/vlf-stations.php

18.2 kHz VTX (Unknown) An Indian Navy communication station. The transmitter is located at South Vijayanarayanam village, 18.64 miles (30 km) south of Turunelveli on the Kanyakumari highway, in India.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

March 2008 piece
http://www.indiadefenceupdate.com/news93.html

It is to the credit of the Indian Navy it anticipated the importance of VLF (Very Low Frequency) underwater signal transmission in the 70s and as part of ambitious naval modernisation program. During early 1980s the Indian Navy acquired large tracts of land near Tirunavelli and constructed a VLF (Very Low Frequency) broadcasting station at Vijayanarayanam in Tamil Nadu. It was reported that United States actively collaborated in the project, which was completed in 1986. :oops:

The operational VLF facility is primarily used by the Indian Navy to communicate with its SSKs, and the Kilo class and HDW submarines are conventionally powered hunter-killers with a trailing antenna when they are submerged and come up to shallow depths at appointed times to receive signals at very slow bit rates. This is standard operating procedure SOP. Hence when the Akula and ATV become operational, the VLF facility will permit Indian National Command Authority to issue launch orders to submerged ATV only at depth of a few metres. VLF waves propagate almost a quarter of the globe away and are generally immune to atmospheric disturbances caused by nuclear detonation.

However their small bandwidth limits the rate of transmission of data, usually allowing only the operation of a slow Teletype and messages can get missed or garbled. Thus an airborne VLF transmitter similar to United States Navy TACAMO (Take Charge And Move Out) may have to be considered and this requires high power. VLF transmission in TACAMO are achieved by a powerful 200KW transmitter in case of United States Navy EC-130A/Q Hercules and a trailing wire antennae 10 kilometres long with a drogue parachute at the end. During transmission the aircraft is flown in continuous tight circle, which results over 70 percent of the wire hanging straight down and acting as a relatively efficient vertical antennae. TACAMO role is fulfilled in Russian Navy by a variant of Tupolev-142 Bear-J. The advanced nations have kept this technology and advancements under wraps.

The hype has now shifted to blue green laser based underwater communications. There is an optical window in the blue-green part of the laser spectrum which enables transmission to penetrate the ocean at substantial distance. Power requirements are considerable and the system at least presently cannot be installed in satellites or aircraft as power out put requirements are massive. Thus it has to be ground based, preferably mobile, in perfect conjunction with a space based mirror with adaptive optics being used to produce a cohesive beam. Significantly, data transfer rate will be 300 times greater than ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) although the "rerouted" laser may not penetrate the same depth. This is the challenge that the Navy will have to overcome.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

this article in chennai hams is very clear - seems like Arihant and other IN subs might deploy a trailing submerged buoy up to a depth of 20m to get instructions...but obviously I think its fairly hazardous/impractical to be always doing it on a deterrent patrol vs a attack submarine mission where one is already instructed to go out and shoot at any targets. ELF sounds better from that POV *iff* it penetrates deeper and gets rid of the trailing wire thing.

http://chennaihams.blogspot.com/2009/09 ... using.html

VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. A vessel more deeply submerged might use a buoy on a long cable equipped with an antenna. The buoy rises to a few meters below the surface, and may be small enough to remain undetected by enemy sonar / radar.

Due to the low frequency, a VLF broadcast aerial needs to be quite big. In fact, broadcasting sites are usually a few square kilometers (or miles). This of course prevents such aerials being installed on submarines. Submarines only carry a VLF reception aerial, and do not respond on such low frequencies. So a ground-to-submarine VLF broadcast is always a one way broadcast, originating on the ground and received aboard the ship. If two-way communication is needed, the ship must surface and communicate on other, higher, frequencies (such as UHF or VHF).
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:to my knowledge, we do not have a ELF facility (only US has one in minnesota and Rus probably has one in siberia somewhere)..but we do have VLF stations. the diff seems to be ability to communicate to deeper submerged subs in the ELF case..
ELF communication is used by US and Russians to keep on passing "Every Thing Ok" ping messages at specific time intervals , which is a way to convey there are no pre-emptive nuclear strikes on the host country , since ELF are known to travel at significant depth.

Loss of ELF signal signifies loss of command and control something that would put the submarine on combat alert and an unacceptable condition , ELF signal loss can also happen due to other natural factors , submariners generally follow procedures to establish quickly command and control or check with other means like VLF covertly as possible to see if there is any emergency situations. Preffered way to receive messages would be VLF due to better data transfer rates but ELF can also used based on preset coded messages to pass target information or other conditions necessary for covert operation and nuclear response , VLF may not be necessary or absolutely critical in worst case.

I have come across document on deterrent patrols of Russian navy where loss of Command and Control temporarily would raise the tension on the sub and every attempt would be made to establish it as quickly as possible , something a submariner describes as very tense moments and that he was more happy to serve on SSN then a SSBN.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Juggi G »

Nerpa and Arihant will Augment Indian Navy’s Declining Submarine Strength
..:: India Strategic ::..

By Cmde (Retd) Ranjit B Rai
The Author is a Former Director Naval Operations (DNO) and Naval Intelligence (DNI).
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

Yeah. But these are not the same as the Kilo class. They are a big/quantum jump. To see them as augmenting the numbers is simplistic. Hope he has better stuff in the article.

--yes he does. The article is really about state of submarines in IN. Conventional sub strength is going down due to age and lack of repalcements. And slow building capablity in India and aborad.

More improtantly he writes:
The nuclear submariners see the year 2012 as a game changing year when INS Arihant joins, and it is reported that two more ATVs are planned. The second hull will have four large long range K-4 nuclear tipped missiles and the third may have an additional plug for a total of eight K-4 missiles.
So Arihant be the K-15 boat and second and third will be K-4 boats(total 12 missiles) which makes the PRC deterrent in place.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Jayram »

And he has more
INS Arihant is presently berthed under a shed at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) near the Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam and will undergo all the standard harbour and sea trials common to all nuclear submarines. The crew has been trained at the Kalpakkam training nuclear reactor and in Russia, and the large black pear shaped hull has reportedly completed the first of many trim dives alongside, an operation that requires very detailed trim calculations for the first of the class. This is a very critical operation for flooding and de-flooding the ballast tanks by the powerful pumps.
Like all the nuclear submarine building yards, SBC has all the facilities to produce external steam and power for the submarine. With external steam and power, a submarine’s propulsion, steering gear and associated systems, electronics and generators can be set to work and tested in the harbour trials.
When all the systems have been cleared by the Submarine Overseering Teams, the full ship’s complement joins the boat for very detailed safety and emergency training. This is a very critical part of the commissioning, and is overseen under directions by the specialist submarine Vice Admiral at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) for nuclear safety. When all the harbour trials are completed, the 95mw nuclear reactor-powered Arihant, which has already been tested ashore, will go critical at low power and worked up to higher power to enable the hull to go to sea. When this happens, INS Arihant will report Underway on Nuclear Power, or words to that effect, marking a Red Letter Day in India’s history.
The next steps will include the many Part II sea trials on surface at various speeds, and when the confidence of the crew is made firm, the submarine will carry out its first shallow dive, going deeper progressively at various speeds. On return from every diving trial, many checks on the hull and reactor performance will be carried out by specialists and the final deep dive to maximum operating depth will culminate in the submarine getting on to Part III for weapon trials with a concurrent work up.
PS sory Ramanji I dont mean to be following you around.. :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by prithvi »

Jayram wrote:And he has more
INS Arihant is presently berthed under a shed at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) near the Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam and will undergo all the standard harbour and sea trials common to all nuclear submarines. The crew has been trained at the Kalpakkam training nuclear reactor and in Russia, and the large black pear shaped hull has reportedly completed the first of many trim dives alongside, an operation that requires very detailed trim calculations for the first of the class. This is a very critical operation for flooding and de-flooding the ballast tanks by the powerful pumps.
Like all the nuclear submarine building yards, SBC has all the facilities to produce external steam and power for the submarine. With external steam and power, a submarine’s propulsion, steering gear and associated systems, electronics and generators can be set to work and tested in the harbour trials.
When all the systems have been cleared by the Submarine Overseering Teams, the full ship’s complement joins the boat for very detailed safety and emergency training. This is a very critical part of the commissioning, and is overseen under directions by the specialist submarine Vice Admiral at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) for nuclear safety. When all the harbour trials are completed, the 95mw nuclear reactor-powered Arihant, which has already been tested ashore, will go critical at low power and worked up to higher power to enable the hull to go to sea. When this happens, INS Arihant will report Underway on Nuclear Power, or words to that effect, marking a Red Letter Day in India’s history.
The next steps will include the many Part II sea trials on surface at various speeds, and when the confidence of the crew is made firm, the submarine will carry out its first shallow dive, going deeper progressively at various speeds. On return from every diving trial, many checks on the hull and reactor performance will be carried out by specialists and the final deep dive to maximum operating depth will culminate in the submarine getting on to Part III for weapon trials with a concurrent work up.
PS sory Ramanji I dont mean to be following you around.. :)
Boy .. this looks like a good 4-5 years away from now...
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shiv »

Jayram wrote:And he has more
INS Arihant is presently berthed under a shed at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) near the Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam and will undergo all the standard harbour and sea trials common to all nuclear submarines. The crew has been trained at the Kalpakkam training nuclear reactor and in Russia, and the large black pear shaped hull has reportedly completed the first of many trim dives alongside, an operation that requires very detailed trim calculations for the first of the class. This is a very critical operation for flooding and de-flooding the ballast tanks by the powerful pumps.
Like all the nuclear submarine building yards, SBC has all the facilities to produce external steam and power for the submarine. With external steam and power, a submarine’s propulsion, steering gear and associated systems, electronics and generators can be set to work and tested in the harbour trials.
When all the systems have been cleared by the Submarine Overseering Teams, the full ship’s complement joins the boat for very detailed safety and emergency training. This is a very critical part of the commissioning, and is overseen under directions by the specialist submarine Vice Admiral at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) for nuclear safety. When all the harbour trials are completed, the 95mw nuclear reactor-powered Arihant, which has already been tested ashore, will go critical at low power and worked up to higher power to enable the hull to go to sea. When this happens, INS Arihant will report Underway on Nuclear Power, or words to that effect, marking a Red Letter Day in India’s history.
The next steps will include the many Part II sea trials on surface at various speeds, and when the confidence of the crew is made firm, the submarine will carry out its first shallow dive, going deeper progressively at various speeds. On return from every diving trial, many checks on the hull and reactor performance will be carried out by specialists and the final deep dive to maximum operating depth will culminate in the submarine getting on to Part III for weapon trials with a concurrent work up.
Archivable stuff. These are details that are generally not well known and will be asked again and again on this forum.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

^^^ so it is 95mw reactor and not 80mv as generally quoted
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by nachiket »

dinesha wrote:^^^ so it is 95mw reactor and not 80mv as generally quoted
The earlier figure that was usually quoted was 85MW. I still remember the big argument here about whether it was 85MWth or 85MWe.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by sum »

Just found a nice ( but dated ) article on Arihant. Not sure if it was posted earlier and hence, posting it :
ndia’s nuclear sub: There she lies like a supine beast, hidden from satellite eyes
Visakhapatnam, July 26: The conning tower is a crusty jet black. It sits on a hull rolled with a mat of black squares. The surfacing is uneven. Reflections of saffron sodium and white mercury lights from the workshop’s ceiling gleam off the mosaic of silvery black that wraps the body of the vessel.

India’s first nuclear submarine is supine like a slothful beast in a narrow strip of water flanked by concrete banks inside the super-secretive Ship Building Centre here. It does not look like the ultimate weapon — the “Brahmastra” — that it is supposed to be.

But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is here and he announces the “launch of India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine”. His wife Gursharan Kaur unveils the metal plaque on the front of the conning tower (a raised platform from which an officer can “con” or control the vessel by giving directions to others).

It reads “INS Arihant”, Sanskrit for “destroyer of enemies”.

In the 30 years of the project, no Prime Minister has even acknowledged its existence publicly. Schedule and serendipity have worked for the Prime Minister whose main task so far has been to take India out of “nuclear isolation”.

The Arihant is now fit for trials, not fit for war. That will take about four years, maybe more.

“First, we go into harbour trials,” says Vice Admiral B. Kannan, programme director, ATV. “In it, we will test each piece of equipment. First, we get its fluids running and then we will get its heart ticking.”

It will be at least a year before the (nuclear) reactor is fired and after that the sea trials.

The Indian Navy owns the submarine now. The vessel is towed by the tail by two tugboats. The tugboats are out in the water in the naval channel of Vizag harbour. The sub is towed a few metres, maybe 20, in slow motion. The vessel is not on own power.

A yellow light revolves on its conning tower where the commanding officer, Captain Anshuman Dutt, is standing, and emphasises the movement. The conning tower itself is to the fore, closer to the bow, rather than in the centre like older, conventional submarines.

Below and behind the conning tower that is stepped, sailors in white uniform drape yellow life jackets around their necks. Some are on the “hump”, just aft, three are on the bow.

The hump, one officer says, will open a hatch to fire missiles vertically. There may be four tubes underneath, each capable of holding three nuclear-tipped SLBMs — submarine-launched ballistic missiles.

The Arihant is gliding again, tail first, but it is still under the roof of the workshop. It will not be towed across the naval channel, out in the open, in daylight, to its next base — Site Bravo — right now. Site Bravo is the spanking new workshop across the naval channel, about — in landlubbers’ terms — a kilometre away. There is a flurry of satellite activity suspected overhead, maybe spy satellites, eager to take images.

Inside this yard of the Ship Building Centre, the only photography allowed is by three cameramen who are either authorised naval personnel or defence ministry staff. No television. No live images.

The media is confined to a space by the naval band. We are on the starboard (right) side of the vessel. We see only the top half of its profile.

But the length is within grasp. From the tip of its tail to its snub-nosed bow, the Arihant is 112 metres, longer by far than any of the submarines in the Indian Naval fleet. At its widest, it is 11 metres in diameter.

The size of the SSBN — the ship submersible ballistic nuclear missile — that the Arihant is, registers first-up.

Russia’s ambassador to India and Russian technologists associated with India’s nuclear submarine programme are present here. Their contribution is richly acknowledged.

“We never had a nuclear submarine, and we needed design consultancy from them,” Vice Admiral Kannan says. The Arihant has about 40 per cent indigenous content. The next two submarines of the same class that are planned are likely to have more.

Commodore C.S. Rao, from the ATV programme’s design department, explains that the undulating surface is probably the outcome of the mosaic of anechoic — rubberised — tiles. Is it bad workmanship?

Rao says the special tiles are said to be capable of absorbing sound waves — the way sound navigation and ranging (sonar) operates — and give the Arihant more stealth. Sonar tries to identify and detect by the reflection of sound waves. Submarine detectors, as well as submarines, rely on sonar.

In the middle of the hull — the body — on the starboard side, there are two rectangular vents. They appear to be perforated. They are meant to take in water when the submarine dives.

“This is a double-hull. What you see is the outer hull through which the water will go in and help take the sub down,” says Rao. That’s common to all submarines. The inner, pressurised hull, is another cocoon. He is talking of a cocoon within a cocoon.

At the snub-nose in the bow, on the waterline right now because the submarine is still on the surface, is a sheet of white metal that contrasts with the blackness of the rest of the hull. They are the sonar sheets of the Arihant.

Below it, on either side and under the water, are three or four tubes angled upwards. They are the torpedo barrels. The missiles with nuclear warheads won’t come out of here. The Arihant may not even have to use this in a conflict. It is a strategic weapons platform, expected to be escorted by the hunter-killer-attack submarines.

The nuclear-tipped missiles that will go into its silos are being tried and tested on land. First, it is likely to be armed with the K-15, that have a range of 750km, and subsequently, a more developed missile, at best called the “K-X” now, that is being designed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation and Bharat Dynamics to have a range of at least 1,500km. Even that is not “strategic”.

The Indian Navy is operating under the belief that it has to compete with the Chinese and must be capable of launching a missile from a submarine with a nuclear warhead that is capable of hitting the target from at least 3,500km.

If a reality check were needed, here it is: The Chinese PLAN (People’s Liberation Army Navy) has 10 nuclear submarines. Some of them are attack (SSN) and some are SSBN in the same category as the Arihant.

Inside the ship-building yard, the Arihant glides to a stop. The water hardly ripples. Captain Dutt on the conning tower is speaking into a walkie-talkie. The vessel will have a crew of more than 90 but less than 100.

The crew will have to be put through endurance tests. “The submarine has enough time, it is the fatigue factor that matters,” says an officer from Naval Headquarters, here for today’s programme. “It’s claustrophobic inside a sub; you notice little things about others, it can be annoying. It’s a psychological thing for the crew,” he says.
Had a chance to meet a very senior chaiwallah of the P-ATV yesterday but the very mention of the word, ATV makes the guys go :| and act as if a question wasn't asked.. :cry:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

nachiket wrote:The earlier figure that was usually quoted was 85MW. I still remember the big argument here about whether it was 85MWth or 85MWe.
Ofcourse it will be 95MW(t) and not 95MW(e), since Naval Reactors are not Thermodynamically efficient compared to land based counterpart they tend to be 15 - 16 % efficient and best may be 20 % compared to last based reactor of ~ 50 %

I would expect if ATV has a thermal rating of 95 MW(t) , its electric generation capacity will be in the region of 16 to 18 MW(e) , even Akula third generation reactor are publicly stated to generate 32MW(e) for a reactor of 190MW(t)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by abhik »

I have a noob question: If only say 20% of the thermal energy is converted to electrical energy what happens to the rest? Now in a land based reactor most of this unconverted energy would be let off as steam but I suppose this is not possible or ideal in a sub.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

Today's ET (delhi) reports that, "It was envisaged that a second (Nuclear) Submarine of the same type (order 518, K-152, Nerpa), built by the same company, order 519, around 60% ready would be completed and leased to india subsequently (after transfer of Nerpa).
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by sum »

^^ It was envisaged or is it still being envisaged?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

dinesha
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

^^^^ Looks like Ptichkin has borrowed the entire paragraph (word to word) from Vijendra Thakur's site :(
http://knol.google.com/k/ins-chakra#
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SureshP »

Wrong place to post it but of sufficient interest
Internet mistake reveals UK nuclear submarine secrets


The Ministry of Defence has admitted that secret information about the UK's nuclear powered submarines was made available on the internet by mistake.

A technical error meant blacked-out parts of an online MoD report could be read by pasting into another document.

Details were reported to include expert opinion on how well the fleet could cope with a catastrophic accident.

The MoD said a secure version had now been published and it was working to stop such an incident happening again.

Information also included measures used by the US Navy to protect its nuclear submarines, the Daily Star Sunday reported.
Declassified dossier

The document was an assessment by the head of the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator, Commodore Andrew McFarlane, of the options for reactors for future submarines to replace the Trident fleet.

Some parts of the declassified dossier, published on the Parliament website, were redacted to protect sensitive information.

In the sections that were supposed to be released, it was concluded that existing reactors were "potentially vulnerable" to fatal accidents.

This caused ministers to suggest that different types would be used in future.

'Public domain'

Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army officer, said the leak was "potentially catastrophic", with the details "hugely interesting" to the UK's enemies.

A spokesman for the MoD, which was told about the blunder by the Daily Star Sunday, said: "The MoD is grateful to the journalist for bringing this matter to our attention.

"As soon as we were told about this, we took steps to ensure the document was removed from the public domain and replaced by a properly redacted version.

"We take nuclear security very seriously and we are doing everything possible to prevent a recurrence of this."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13107413
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by khwaja »

prithvi wrote:
INS Arihant is presently berthed under a shed at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) near the Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam and will undergo all the standard harbour and sea trials common to all nuclear submarines. The crew has been trained at the Kalpakkam training nuclear reactor and in Russia, and the large black pear shaped hull has reportedly completed the first of many trim dives alongside, an operation that requires very detailed trim calculations for the first of the class. This is a very critical operation for flooding and de-flooding the ballast tanks by the powerful pumps.
Like all the nuclear submarine building yards, SBC has all the facilities to produce external steam and power for the submarine. With external steam and power, a submarine’s propulsion, steering gear and associated systems, electronics and generators can be set to work and tested in the harbour trials.
When all the systems have been cleared by the Submarine Overseering Teams, the full ship’s complement joins the boat for very detailed safety and emergency training. This is a very critical part of the commissioning, and is overseen under directions by the specialist submarine Vice Admiral at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) for nuclear safety. When all the harbour trials are completed, the 95mw nuclear reactor-powered Arihant, which has already been tested ashore, will go critical at low power and worked up to higher power to enable the hull to go to sea. When this happens, INS Arihant will report Underway on Nuclear Power, or words to that effect, marking a Red Letter Day in India’s history.
The next steps will include the many Part II sea trials on surface at various speeds, and when the confidence of the crew is made firm, the submarine will carry out its first shallow dive, going deeper progressively at various speeds. On return from every diving trial, many checks on the hull and reactor performance will be carried out by specialists and the final deep dive to maximum operating depth will culminate in the submarine getting on to Part III for weapon trials with a concurrent work up.
Boy .. this looks like a good 4-5 years away from now...

Plus, wht's worrying is that our present fleet is also very low on operational readiness.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories886.htm

India's operational fleet strength is a mere 13 Diesel subs. The Shishumar class is a 1970s design used by 13 countries (we're in the ranks of countries like Argentina, Indonesia, Peru and the like). The Sindhugosh, the Kilo class (1980s design), is also an export model used by about 6 countries.

This does not seem or sound like a country trying to control the Indian Ocean in the coming century. We have to ramp up the scale of production (no more defence PSUs please) and research going into naval vessels. A US type model could be experimented, by nurturing "Electric Boat" type companies who'll invest in research guided by policies and doctrines and build and compete in the Global market for orders.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by khwaja »

abhik wrote:I have a noob question: If only say 20% of the thermal energy is converted to electrical energy what happens to the rest? Now in a land based reactor most of this unconverted energy would be let off as steam but I suppose this is not possible or ideal in a sub.
You'd expect some awesome heat exchangers which push out that heat into the sea... hmm.. that's got me thinking of heat signatures of these vessels (come on now.. 75 MWe is a lot of heat!)..

Any bright ideas?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Misraji »

^^^

Water absorbs electromagnetic radiation except at certain wavelengths.
Electromagnetic absorption by water.

From what I vaguely recollect, there had been an earlier idea to communicate with submarines using blue-green lasers since that part of the spectrum is not as strongly absorbed. No clue what happened to that.

~Ashish
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by wig »

the times of iNdia reports that Manmohan Singh takes stock of country's nuclear arsenal
Monday took stock of its nuclear arsenal and delivery systems like long-range ballistic missiles, fighter-bombers and warships towards its quest to have an operational nuclear triad -- the capability to fire nukes from land, sea and air -- in the near future.

Sources said the top-level meet held by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was "not just a general security review'' but in fact a full-fledged Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) conference to assess the steps being taken to consolidate and strengthen India's "minimum but credible nuclear deterrence".

The status of two crucial but delayed "strategic programmes", the 5,000-km-range Agni-V missile and indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, is said to have figured in the discussion apart from "overarching strategic issues".
a snippet on the Arihant
INS Arihant is also slated to go for "harbour and sea trials" once its miniature 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor gains "full criticality". The defence establishment is eager to induct INS Arihant, armed with 12 nuclear-tipped missiles, by next year because it will constitute the most effective and difficult-to-detect leg of the nuclear triad
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 380273.cms
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by sum »

^^ Cmde Ranjit Rai ( ex- DNI chief) mentioned that the harbour trials had already begun after some "glitches" were sorted out..
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

I am assuming that this has already been discussed here.
S-2.
By: Khan, Muhammad Azam.
Naval War College Review, Summer2010, Vol. 63 Issue 3, p85-104, 20p;

Abstract: The article discusses the S-2 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, or INS Arihant, completed in 2009 by India as part of the Advanced Technology Vessel project of the Indian Navy. The impact of this nuclear weapons delivery system on the Indian Ocean region, and especially Pakistan, is discussed, as are the nuclear policies of India and Pakistan, and Pakistan's options for responding to India's seaborne capability. Options for the Pakistani Navy to deploy nuclear weapons at sea are discussed in particular.; (AN 51197454)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by sum »

X-posting( from IN dhaga) :
jai wrote:NewsX channel is reporting an accident at Vizag - dry dock of Arihant got flooded suddenly - 4 navy men, incl 2 officers dead, 18 injured.

Sad indeed, Sub is safe.

http://alpha.newsx.com/
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