J & K news and discussion

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 14:28

vina wrote:a shock troop like force of BJP nutters and their sectarian hate baggage could have accomplished.

Only one kind of hate is visible here.

AbhishekD · Post by **AbhishekD** » 24 Jan 2011 14:34

amit wrote:
AbhishekD wrote:The liberal establishment needs an excuse to shift the blame towards the hindu right. BJP's yatra is not the cause of the problem in Kashmir. Just to lets liberals know that. This problem is a product of 60 years of a misguided policy followed by the liberal establishment.

Kashmir is an integral part of India and their is no difference between kashmir and other parts of India. Kashmiris once they decided to accede to India have to abide by India's constitution. The accession was done under special conditions but that does not take away from the fact of under pakistani attack kashmiris decided to join India and not join pakistan or defend itself till the last man. I am sure that if kashmiris would not have signed the accession treaty and fought the pakistani army till the last man no nation in the world could have subjugated them with the largest army at hand.

After acceding they cannot change the status. Period
I think it is useful to remember that the National Flag will be raised in Srinagar on Wednesday. The question/argument/view (take your pick) is BJP's decision to hold a party function at Lal Chowk to raise the Tricolour.

Of course this is not say that the BJP or any other party or Indian does not have the right to hoist the Tricolour. But IMO it is wrong to imply that if the BJP is prevented from raising the flag at Lal Chowk, no Tricolour will be unfurled in Srinagar.

The question is simple. The NC - INC combine has traditionally allowed terrorists and islamists to take control of the valley. The last 3 years of on and off political agitation in the valley is again creating a political situation where the islamists are taking control of the valley. These islamists need to be confronted. the opposition of the flag hoisting is coming from islamists and the OA government should oppose them and not the BJP rally. BJP rally is a symbolic political gesture to illustrate the ground reality in Kashmir under the present NC-INC regime and the slow diplomatic surrender of the valley.

The reaction of the OA government and central government clearly shows which way the water is flowing in the valley. The valley under this regime is again going to dogs and terrorists as it happened earlier where Abdullah seniors peeded in his pants and resigned when the terrorists became too hot to handle. OA is showing similar signs

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jan 2011 14:42

As it's said, Vaade Vaade Jayate Tattva Bodha.

One point which I agree with is that there would have been an advantage in having this be a Pandit-led initiative, with the BJP less visible. That would have neutralized the regional sentiment factor, thereby exposing the opposition as being based purely on Islamist fanaticism and Islamist separatism.

It would have also neutralized the "victimhood" factor, since there is no community that has been victimized more than the Pandits.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 14:54

If people hate BJP how does BJP becomes a party which hates? Ah well must be something Chankian.

As to the Lahori Logic of there is one flag in Srinagar, therefore there must not be anyother.

By that token, once a flag goes up in Delhi, anyone else doing it elsewhere is a divisive politician.

Further since CRPF was hoisting the flag at Lal chowk last year while OA was doing it at where ever they must also be divisive politician.

What depths would people plunge too to defend their personal intrests over that of the nation.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 14:55

Pranav wrote:As it's said, Vaade Vaade Jayate Tattva Bodha.

One point which I agree with is that there would have been an advantage in having this be a Pandit-led initiative, with the BJP less visible. That would have neutralized the regional sentiment factor, thereby exposing the opposition as being based purely on Islamist fanaticism and Islamist separatism.

This is better, the islamists were exposed already, this is exposing their backers in New Delhi.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jan 2011 14:58

^^^ The smart thing would have been to make sure that the opposition exposes itself as being thoroughly illegitimate ... nothing but Islamist hatred. Strip away any possibility of hiding behind anything less abhorrent.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 15:00

Sanku wrote:If people hate BJP how does BJP becomes a party which hates? Ah well must be something Chankian.

It is more interesting when you see that people like Yasin Malik and Geelani are against the yatra. We are trying to be sensitive to their concerns. We should put balm on their injuries.

Who has killed more people: BJP or Yasin Malik and his stone-pelting followers in Sopore and Srinagar?

It is chanakian indeed!

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 15:04

Pranav wrote: a Pandit-led initiative, with the BJP less visible. That would have neutralized the regional sentiment factor, thereby exposing the opposition as being based purely on Islamist fanaticism and Islamist separatism.

It would have also neutralized the "victimhood" factor, since there is no community that has been victimized more than the Pandits.

Exactly! Now, look at the first thing the Islamist nutters want to target. Music, dance, personal freedoms, an open mind and an open society (exactly the things the BJP nutters seem to get their chaddies into a twist as well, remember valentine's day? jeans?). The way to fight those Islamist nutters is to bring back the things that they are mortally afraid of and know that they cannot win against in a free environment where there is no coercion. Now that they cant coerce, cut the ground under the feet!.

Open up the discourse, get the party going, get the buzz going, get the kashmiri youth into the tent. You need to use your brains for a change. For a lot of the folks here can't seem to go beyond using coercion (for a person with a hammer,every problem seems to be a nail

). And for fighting the Gilani type nutcases, you don't roll out the nutcases of a different color, namely the rotund buffoon and his shock troops , but roll out Amir Khan and Katrina Kaif and the rest of the pack instead and the fun and frolic!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:13

Oh so the Pakistani backed moves would be stopped by doing a nautanki and a tamasha. And Kasab should be killed by his own guilt by feeding him biryani.

Vina-ji by the time this is over, your remaining reputation will equal somnath's on this board.

You seem to be in the wrong place anyway. This board consists of people who dont quite believe that turning the other cheek is a legitimate Rakshak tactic.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:16

I really and fervently wish that people who cant differentiate between Taliban and Indian nationalists spend some time up close and personal with Taliban.

But not in my country please.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 15:19

Sanku wrote:You seem to be in the wrong place anyway.

Actually the folks on this forum can actually use their brains and do have something between their ears other than vacuum.

This board consists of people who dont quite believe that turning the other cheek is a legitimate Rakshak tactic.

No one is asking you to turn the other cheek. When there is the gun, you use the gun. Now the gun is out. Now do something different.

You dont seem to be able to get it. Are you holding a hammer in your hand perhaps?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:20

vina wrote:
Sanku wrote:You seem to be in the wrong place anyway.
Actually the folks on this forum can actually use their brains and do have something between their ears other than vacuum.

I am glad you could figure that out. That is precisely why you are in the wrong place though.

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jan 2011 15:24

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is more interesting when you see that people like Yasin Malik and Geelani are against the yatra. We are trying to be sensitive to their concerns.

No you are NOT. You are trying to put that old stiff and that semi literate dead ender out of business.

But what the BJP is doing will surely give them a fresh lease of life and help them keep their shop open much longer than they otherwise can.

Who has killed more people: BJP or Yasin Malik and his stone-pelting followers in Sopore and Srinagar?

Indeed!. I would be very careful if I were you before posing such questions comparing the stone pelters and the BJP, given the riots that followed the Advani Rath yatra and Babri demolition and the Gujarat events a decade ago and the trauma that convulsed this nation.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:26

vina wrote: No you are NOT. You are trying to put that old stiff and that semi literate dead ender out of business.

Ah by feeding snake milk and looking the other way you hope the snakes will die?

Impressive feat of mental ability.

If some one says snake snake he must be real culprit, because the snake after drinking milk was going to die after all.

And not reproduce and create more snakes in your home.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:29

Marten wrote:Yeah, that's what all of India was waiting for... an == with Babri.

Sigh!

When we Indians feel tormented about our glorious country suffering so much through history despite all positives; we must remember the chief reasons.

Jaychand's; Silhadi; Man Singh of Amber and other collaborators and compromises who put bigoted partisan politics above the nation.

That is the real curse of India.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 24 Jan 2011 15:30

Sanku wrote:I really and fervently wish that people who cant differentiate between Taliban and Indian nationalists spend some time up close and personal with Taliban.

But not in my country please.

With some DVDs back-up onlee, a Hindustan Times journalist to write on this sharing of culture and a NDTV type to broadcast the Sufism.... But those Bolly DVDs might end up, up back as they might not be to the taste of the Talibs, andaz apna apna i guess..

Anurag Thakur, on Omar Abdullah:

I just pity him. He visualises no threat to peace by the activities of separatists and anti-national elements which he dreads to rein in. He finds no threat to peace when Hurriyat leaders openly preach secession and exercise their freedom of speech and expression enshrined in the Indian Constitution to challenge the Constitution which recognises J&K as a State of the Indian Union. But he feels threatened by our wish to unfurl the National Flag in Srinagar in a most peaceful manner. Congress-NC government in J&K and UPA government at the Centre extend to secessionists the freedom to preach sedition in any part of India, including Delhi but wish to deny us the freedom to show our respect to the National Flag in Srinagar.

Link

From the Times of India

JAMMU: In addition to disallowing vehicular traffic to Srinagar from Jammu on January 25 and 26, the Jammu and Kashmir government has deployed 4000 CRPF men besides 40 companies of Jammu and Kashmir police and Haryana police to stop the BJP from hoisting the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on January 26 at the end of the party's Ekta Yatra.

The state government also deployed forces at the entrance of the state at Lakhanpur which borders Punjab.

The state government has also imposed prohibitory orders across the state including Kathua, Jammu and Samba. Similarly prohibitory orders were also imposed in Srinagar , Bugdam and Anantnag districts in Kashmir valley to scuttle the BJP plan of hoisting the national flag, police sources said.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 15:35

Marten wrote:Yeah, that's what all of India was waiting for... an == with Babri.

Sigh!

Look at it another way, it seems that indeed Ramjanmbhooi == tiranga for those who detest both equally. Think of what it means.

This is deep insight into the mindset of self proclaimed liberal (while in reality bigoted haters of Indians who are not like them) secular (not really secular only pro the bloc which unites together to wield power, any bloc, they will happy bow before Hindu fanatics if such people really existed to appease them, of course while continuing to hate them privately as in 1)

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 15:35

vina wrote: No you are NOT. You are trying to put that old stiff and that semi literate dead ender out of business.

But what the BJP is doing will surely give them a fresh lease of life and help them keep their shop open much longer than they otherwise can.

I disagree. It is hard to say that they are weakened when we accept all their demands. If Geelani dies, someone else will take his place. The assembly line never ends. Omar Abdullah talks like his grandfather.

Indeed!. I would be very careful if I were you before posing such questions comparing the stone pelters and the BJP, given the riots that followed the Advani Rath yatra and Babri demolition and the Gujarat events a decade ago and the trauma that convulsed this nation.

I am very careful. I did not just say "stone pelters", I was talking about the number of civilians killed by terrorists since 1989 in J&K. My claim is accurate.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Jan 2011 15:35

Will even Pak have so much security and prohibition if BJP decides to hoist the tricolour in Lahore?

Seems from the reation of centre+OA combo as if the evil communal BJP is asking for tricolour hoisting in kandhaar or Isloo instead of our own country ( as per our constitution)?

saket · Post by **saket** » 24 Jan 2011 16:08

Yasin Malik threatened "We will see who raises the flag and whose flag is raised"

Omar and MMS are the ones implementing his threat.

After this performance OA and MMS can spend some time to write a thesis on how Yasin Malik's arse tastes.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 24 Jan 2011 16:24

Sushma Swaraj tweets:

We have landed in Jammu. It appears they have locked the Terminal gates. Not being allowed to go out.
web • 1/24/11 5:08 AM

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 16:26

BJP top brass stopped at Jammu airport ahead of ‘Ekta Yatra’

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 353544.cms

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 24 Jan 2011 16:30

. When I see such meticulous planning and the 'bandobust', it really makes me wonder. Will all these worthies take the same efforts if the nation is in danger? (external or internal problems). If the J&K state security agencies show the same grit and determination to stop terrorists from out side entering India, that itself would be a great achievement. Looks like now we are reaching a situation where none of the parties would now step back (call it ego or what ever it is). So now it is "may the best win!".

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2011 16:33

Sachin wrote:. When I see such meticulous planning and the 'bandobust', it really makes me wonder. Will all these worthies take the same efforts if the nation is in danger? (external or internal problems). If the J&K state security agencies show the same grit and determination to stop terrorists from out side entering India, that itself would be a great achievement.

You took the words out of my mouth Sir!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2011 16:37

Sachin wrote:If the J&K state security agencies show the same grit and determination to stop terrorists from out side entering India, that itself would be a great achievement.

Why saar? Don't we want to encourage "people-to-people" contacts? What about GoI's plan to bring back people who "have gone to the other side"? Given this direction, J&K police has to look south, not north/west.

Baba · Post by **Baba** » 24 Jan 2011 16:58

Vina,

I have a small house in small town India. I want to hoist a green flag over it.

I also demand a plebiscite to declare that 135 sq yd territory as sovereign nation. It is my right as a I live in a democracy. Please help my cause in the way you are helping that of J&K peace lovers.

Mind you, I am a Hindu.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Jan 2011 17:03

vina wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Would all those who are having trouble with BJP hoisting tricolor in Lal chowk be happy and dandy and support us if Jamwal ji and me hoist national flag in Lal chowk.
After all we cannot be construed as invading force ( Whatever that meant vina ji ).
That is the sanest argument I have heard in this entire thread. What you and your fellow pundits should have done is to put together a group and put in a formal application to the Govt of J&K and the GOI for security and permission for raising the flag on Jan26th at Lal Chowk and got together some 1000 strong group , shot off a copy to TOI (let ), Al-Hundi , Undie TV, Times Now etc and every TV channel and given some tag line such as "Kashmiris, going home to raise the flag on Republic day" ,.

Not bad. Except for the fact that there are no Kashmiri Pandits left in the valley. Survivors are scattered all over and not organised enough. All thanks to secular Kashmiri Muslims. As for Jammu is concerned, we are a bunch of communal black mailers onlee. Don't you remember 2008 when we caused millions of KM to die of starvation by blocking national highway.

This thread is moving FAST.

saket · Post by **saket** » 24 Jan 2011 17:05

Baba wrote:Vina,

I have a small house in small town India. I want to hoist a green flag over it.

I also demand a plebiscite to declare that 135 sq yd territory as sovereign nation. It is my right as a I live in a democracy. Please help my cause in the way you are helping that of J&K peace lovers.

Mind you, I am a Hindu.

Dont you know, Muslims have the first right over land, water, kaffir wimmens ... convert yourself before you raise a voice ..

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Jan 2011 17:08

One more thing, are Kashmir muslims perceived any different from muslims any where else in India ?
The way I see it, this kashmir issue is seen with a Kashmir lens instead of Islamist bigotry one.

saket · Post by **saket** » 24 Jan 2011 17:11

Watch this NDTV report on the falling population of Kashmiri Pandits

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/a ... ers/188807

Someone called Vina expects these marginalized Kashmiri Pandits to to march towards the valley, on their own without any help. Thats like mocking their current predicament.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 24 Jan 2011 17:21

Just thinking on a different note... If say NC-INC succeed to stop BJP from hosting national flag >> Will it be possible to make a JK govt answerable to court why instead of facilitating a flag hosting by Indian on Indian territory, JK govt uses state machinery to oppose/prohibit it (hosting national flag is fundamental right of every Indian)

And say to save the face, CRPF or who ever host a flag ... case still has a merit >> instead of provide protection to Indian to hoist national flag JK govd prohibiting Indian from their fundamental right. I am sure JK govt can not hide under the facade of volatile situation/greater interest of people of JK/maintain law and order etc.. logic.

If a case get register in PIL.. That will be enough to take the last shred of mask these pseudo-nationalist... also it will awaken the every indian about the reality of Kashmiiiir. Also, in that case INC will try to distant itself from NC... and that will reduce the orchestrated support for kasmiiir issue.

Also, I support Vinas idea. We have tackle these guys in all front. When one such function will arranged, in the home turf of islamist bigots... it will be a do-or-die challenge to them... along with we have to arrange week long cultural promotion (including school/college kids) every now and then and after the day elders have party. I am sure these islamist will try their best to curtail these... and very soon they will commit blunder like school bus burning >> we need to lure them in to this. And in school-to-school cultural interaction we can break the isolation of next generation.

strategy must be hit them hard where it matters and pull the sympathy carpet from under their feet in every opportunity... it does not matter if it is Gandhian or grenade-ian as long as it is doing the right thing without us falling in to their trap...

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 24 Jan 2011 17:24

Lot of light and heat but nothing much will come off it, realism tells me. Theek hai.

Sushma swaraj is using her smartfone to tweet happenings in Jammu. J&K govt has locked the oppn inside the airport tarmac and intends to release them only after 26-Jan. Someone was mentioning that when the leaders of oppn in LS and RS don't have freedom of movement inside J&K< what then of ordinary citizens.

Ajatshatru wrote:Yasin Malik - the same bastar* who is accused of, among other things, killing of 4 unarmed Air Force officers in the past....Is this sort of scumbag/aantakwaadi's feelings OA is concerned about when OA is trying to prevent the Indian flag being hoisted at Lal Chowk?

Any source? Didn't know about this. TIA.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Jan 2011 17:27

The only people who have a true right to raise the Indian flag in Kashmir are Kashmiri's themselves. Sure you can march in there and do it, but it does not speak well of us, the other states. Anyone doing so uninvited is violating someones home. This is the meaning of the Indian Federation. We are not an Empire or the Domain of a God King.

First of all, this not gatecrashing.. BJP is doing what the GOI should have done. The message being sent out is that India as a nation will not surrender Kashmir to Pakistan. Kashmiris doesn't mean only secessionists - There are Hindus and Muslims as well, who welcome this move by BJP.

Not just Kashmir - if the authority of the Government is challenged, then such action should be taken anywhere in India, be it Tamil Nadu, Andhra, Punjab or Arunachal. That is what any country will do, even small ones - it is just to protect the territorial integrity, and cannot be misconstrued as empire building.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Jan 2011 17:32

>>>>BJP top brass stopped at Jammu airport ahead of ‘Ekta Yatra’

They are released now...may be Omar's a$$ caught fire!

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Jan 2011 17:36

Can Omar or MMS Guarantee the nation that if BJP doesn't hoist the flag on 26th, the separatists will be stopped from hoisting the Pakistani Flag?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 24 Jan 2011 17:46

Neilz wrote:Just thinking on a different note... If say NC-INC succeed to stop BJP from hosting national flag >> Will it be possible to make a JK govt answerable to court why instead of facilitating a flag hosting by Indian on Indian territory, JK govt uses state machinery to oppose/prohibit it (hosting national flag is fundamental right of every Indian)

And say to save the face, CRPF or who ever host a flag ... case still has a merit >> instead of provide protection to Indian to hoist national flag JK govd prohibiting Indian from their fundamental right. I am sure JK govt can not hide under the facade of volatile situation/greater interest of people of JK/maintain law and order etc.. logic.

Exactly the correct way to think about this....All the sound and fury with the anti-hoisting brigade spluttering in rage, counts for zilch.

The issue is really that there exists a fundamental right to fly / hoist the Indian flag in India as mandated by the SC (based on Naveen Jindal's PIL)- and so the precise provision / clause that the government proposes to use to block the BJP from exercising its rights needs to be articulated. If nothing else, the battle will be taken to court and saner voices will debate on the whole issue of fundamental rights and expressing one's nationalism in this most benign and universally tolerated form.

The BJP should be commended for forcing this debate into the public domain using Gandhian methods. Mark my words - the public will have a huge stake in this debate, and it might not be very pretty for the INC.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 24 Jan 2011 17:48

Actually Bhagat Singh should not have thrown the bomb in the assembly nor distributed the pamphlets. See it hurt the British sentiments and gave fresh life to British resolve.
Instead He should have sent interlocutors to understand British PoV and sing hosannas in their praise.
Preferably let the clrown run this country while worrying about the economic growth and GDP. Why spoil the party when Brits were having fun at Indian cost.

PS: If you guys want Vina ji to support this Yatra , Make sure that the expense of this Yatra is paid only by Delhities.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jan 2011 17:54

saket wrote:Watch this NDTV report on the falling population of Kashmiri Pandits

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/a ... ers/188807

Someone called Vina expects these marginalized Kashmiri Pandits to to march towards the valley, on their own without any help. Thats like mocking their current predicament.

That is what it should appear to be. In the realm of symbolism and psy-ops, appearances matter.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Jan 2011 18:07

WoW, a real fast moving thread in BRF. it moved four pages in seven hours.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Jan 2011 18:20

Sushma Swaraj tweets from Jammu airport wrote: DGP and other senior officials have arrived.

Arun Jaitley and Anant Kr with me.

We have been taken to the Terminal. Those accompanying us held at the tarmac. DM came.

Just see - we are being deported because we want to fly the national flag.

Arun Jaitley & Anant trying to reason with the. You cant do this under Section 144 ?

The plane is not allowed to leave.

Terminal gates are locked. We are not allowed there.

Bharat Mata ki jai. Vande Maatram - Vande Maatram. Bs hamein jaane do.

Lo suno - Hum jhanda fahrayeinge. Aur Bharat ka jhanda fahrayeinge. Bs hamein physically pahunchne do.

Kahte hain 'dekhte hain kaun jhanda fahrata hai aur kiska jhanda fahrata hai'. Arre hamari mayon ne kaayar jane hain kya ?

I am reminded of what poet Faiz wrote 'Nisar main teri galiyon pe ae watan ki jahan chali hai rasam ki koi na sar utha ke chale'.

What is our offence ? We only want to hoist our national flag.

What is this ? They are not allowing the plane to leave without us.

We are determined to go and hoist the national flag at the Lal Chowk. The Government should allow us to go there at our risk.

We are at the tarmac.

They have the power to arrest us. How can they deport us.

They are not allowing the plane to fly back. They are asking us to go back in the Plane. We have refused.

Initially they were not allowing us to deplane. Now we have come out. We are sitting at the tarmac.

They have served us an Order under S.144 CrPC. They want us to fly back.

We have landed in Jammu. It appears they have locked the Terminal gates. Not being allowed to go out.