News - Osama Bin Laden - killed In Pakistan

[sum]

^^ Exactly..the whole deal logic falls flat when we consider the location where he finally met his 72... the only worse location for TSPA might have been Kiyani's bedroom

[abhishek_sharma]

MMS, for all his perceived weakness no doubt has figured this out that the TSP problem cannot be solved by India alone. So MMS takes the high road, that f#$% terrorism, I only care about the economy. Sooner rather than later TSP would do a huge mistake when world will take care of it, though India may get 1-2 nookes.
MMS philosophy is rightly or wrongly: Why should I care about 200 terror deaths a year when 5000 children die every day?
Now does a mother really care whether 1 of her sons dies of terrorism when 5 others die due to malnutrition.
For all its on the face weakness, MMS philosophy has some backbone and seems to work till an extent though its hugely irritating and seemingly cowardly.

You should get a Nobel Prize for this theory.

[A_Gupta]

MMS, for all his perceived weakness no doubt has figured this out that the TSP problem cannot be solved by India alone. So MMS takes the high road, that f#$% terrorism, I only care about the economy. Sooner rather than later TSP would do a huge mistake when world will take care of it, though India may get 1-2 nookes.
MMS philosophy is rightly or wrongly: Why should I care about 200 terror deaths a year when 5000 children die every day?
Now does a mother really care whether 1 of her sons dies of terrorism when 5 others die due to malnutrition.
For all its on the face weakness, MMS philosophy has some backbone and seems to work till an extent though its hugely irritating and seemingly cowardly.

I disagree. The money lost in the various scams, if used for development, would save and improve the lives of innumerable children. So the theorized MMS philosophy would require cleaning up corruption in India and delivery of development projects as a higher priority than talking to Pakistan. Which we don't see.

[RajeshA]

Dear American citizens of BRF. This is your one chance to lobby for cutting funds to Pakistan. This is it. Please write letters to your senators. Lobby Ram narayanan at the Indian American friendship council. Mobilize and act as a unit. Instead of blaming GoI, each one of you have the individual power to lobby your senators with DAMNING evidence and actually cause some change with US Pak dealings. I know I am drafting a letter to my MP, will you?

shyamd ji,

I would suggest, you start a new thread in Strategic or General Forum, where people can post the letters they write to their elected officials - Senators, House Representatives, Members of Parliament, etc.

It would give ideas to many more on how to formulate those letters and what to stress!

[sohamn]

CNN is saying that the helicopter that crashed was a new super secret stealth helicopter that was developed super secretly without knowledge of the public.

But unfortunately many sections of the helicopter is still intact and pakistan has got access to it now.

[Prasad]

Except for the tail rotor section, nothing else is in any recognisable form. The important parts of the chopper namely the electronics are gone. The SEALs made sure of that. According to aviation forums, the tail rotor appears to be a derivative of the comanche tail rotor. Not something chipanda already has/knows. So not much really. Khan would've wanted it back if not.

[Deans]

This (BRF) has by far the most interesting OBL thread, from the several sites I've visited and has made me come out of lurker mode

While I don't believe in any of the conspiracy theories being peddled by the Pakis, I believe the US needs to provide more details on what I think are some loose ends.

1. How did such a large no of computers / HDD's get recovered from a place that did not have an internet connection ? How many computer literate people were in the mansion, to have required several computers - its not as if OBL's 12 year old daughter
(or wife) updates her status on Facebook. Were they more people EKIA or taken prisoner ?

2. Might be useful for the US to start releasing snippets of the Intel they recovered - such as `we know that elements linked to the Pak establishment visited the compound...' since arm twisting is best done immediately after the event.

3. Just curious, but does India have a helicopter capable of some amount of stealth, for an Op like this ?

[Anujan]

1. How did such a large no of computers / HDD's get recovered from a place that did not have an internet connection ?

Reminds me of N^3 theory about Al Keeda.

[amdavadi]

OBL was using neighbour open wi-fi network to download all his speeches to keep record of what he said. He got paid 10K for every
speech he gave by eye-asss-eye..

[ranjithnath]

Reuters released photos of three dead men at OBL compond. 2/3 seem to be pakistanis.

LINK

At least 2, if not all 3 seem to have taken head shots.
I see no head wounds in front.

1) they were running
or
2) they were caught and shot

there are no exit wounds from front ??were they all shot from a side angle??only the last guy seems to have had a body shot.

[Airavat]

Plenty of documentation is required for constructing any kind of house, not to mention such a huge mansion:

Allotment letter
Possession order
Site Plan and sub-divided site plan
All paid utility bills and challans
Approval and completion of the building plan
Completion certificate
Transfer/Mutation Order
Power of Attorney, duly executed in the office of the Sub-registrar concerned.

And how about all the regulations and building permits required for the high walls and barbed wire. Who authorised all that?

Express Tribune:

Some locals pointed fingers at the authorities for failing to keep an eye on the building, which has a unique structure given the other housing facilities in the town. “The construction of high walls with barbed wires is not allowed by the Cantonment Board,” said another resident. “This house is built in complete violation of the building codes of the area. We are not allowed to raise our boundary wall beyond a certain level, so how was this building overlooked?” he said.

[Narad]

In the Guardian photos of the crashed halicopter, the tale section(picture 4) is clearly not of the old UH-60 Black hawk but a new stealth design.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery ... 90&index=3

Garus, pardon my ignorance and limited knowledge, but doesn't the stealth helicopter look too small to carry 4-5 men with all their equipments? I mean look at those men standing besides the helicopter, I dont think even one of them could fit comfortably in the cock-pit.

Can it be a stealth (maybe unmanned) Reconnaissance chopper for real time intel? Will it explain why no one was hurt or injured when this chopper crashed?

[Raja Bose]

According to aviation forums, the tail rotor appears to be a derivative of the comanche tail rotor. Not something chipanda already has/knows. So not much really. Khan would've wanted it back if not.

The Comanche had a fenestron type shrouded tail rotor - this crashed chopper has a more conventional rotor. If the rotor was so secret they would have blown it apart. Probably was a electronically souped up and up-armoured version of a BlackHawk variant.

[Prasad]

According to aviation forums, the tail rotor appears to be a derivative of the comanche tail rotor. Not something chipanda already has/knows. So not much really. Khan would've wanted it back if not.

The Comanche had a fenestron type shrouded tail rotor - this crashed chopper has a more conventional rotor. If the rotor was so secret they would have blown it apart. Probably was a electronically souped up and up-armoured version of a BlackHawk variant.

Oh yes. Fenestron type tail rotor is very different from the regular one. The regular blackhawk tail rotor looks like this - http://s3.amazonaws.com/picable/2008/01 ... er_620.jpg

I wonder what the shroud over the center is for. Noise damping is an obvious guess?

[Singha]

protection from small arms fire damaging the vital hub of the tail rotor. RCS reduction.

[Prabu]

Narada, Yes You are right. Please see a news above the bloody photo.

=====================================================================
from http://WWW.LIVELEAK.COM

bin Laden Raid Might Have Revealed a Secret New Helicopter


Part of channel(s): Death of Osama bin Laden (current event)


A picture of the tail rotor of the chopper that the Navy Seals' Team Six detonated revealed unfamiliar features. Reports say it could be a new, secret helicopter.

When the Team Six members reached Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad one of the choppers made a "controlled but hard landing," according to reports, probably due to higher than expected temperatures.

Temperatures affects the de More..

[ranjithnath]

maybe some EW or ELINT equipments??

[vipins]

According to aviation forums, the tail rotor appears to be a derivative of the comanche tail rotor. Not something chipanda already has/knows. So not much really. Khan would've wanted it back if not.

The Comanche had a fenestron type shrouded tail rotor - this crashed chopper has a more conventional rotor. If the rotor was so secret they would have blown it apart. Probably was a electronically souped up and up-armoured version of a BlackHawk variant.

Sir , One article puts it as a HH-60 Pave Hawk , only the rotor is 'stealth' covered in this case.
viewtopic.php?p=1083684#p1083684

[Raja Bose]

I wonder what the shroud over the center is for. Noise damping is an obvious guess?

It may be some sort of noise damping combined with armour plating. Or maybe it is just a bed pan in case OBL needed one during his last moments (I mean spending so much time with Pakis must have 400% inculcated the browning-of-shalwar habit into him).

[arunsrinivasan]

Apologies if this is a repost.
Pakistani Army, Shaken by Raid, Faces New Scrutiny

By JANE PERLEZ
Published: May 4, 2011

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — The reputation of the army, the most powerful and privileged force in Pakistan, has been severely undermined by the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden, raising profound questions about its credibility from people at home and from benefactors abroad, including the United States.

That American helicopters could fly into Pakistan, carrying a team to kill the world’s most wanted terrorist and then fly out undetected has produced a stunned silence from the military and its intelligence service that some interpret as embarrassment, even humiliation.

There is no doubt that the raid has provoked a crisis of confidence for what was long seen as the one institution that held together a nation dangerously beset by militancy and chronically weak civilian governments.

The aftermath has left Pakistanis to challenge their leadership, and the United States to further question an already frequently distrusted partner.

By Wednesday, members of Parliament, newspaper editorials and Pakistan’s raucous political talk shows were calling for an explanation and challenging the military and intelligence establishment, institutions previously immune to public reproach.

Some were calling for an independent inquiry, focused less on the fact that the world’s most wanted terrorist was discovered in their midst than on whether the military could defend Pakistan’s borders and its nuclear arsenal from being snatched or attacked by the United States or India.

“If these people are found to be incompetent, heads should roll,” said Zafar Hilaly, a prominent newspaper columnist.

Different questions were coming from Pakistan’s neighbors and Western allies, including the United States. In Congress, powerful lawmakers in charge of foreign military assistance delivered scathing assessments of the Pakistani Army as either incompetent or duplicitous, saying that renewed financial support was hardly guaranteed.

In Britain, Prime Minister David Cameron told Parliament it was unbelievable that the Pakistani authorities did not know that Bin Laden was hiding not far from the capital.

But the most urgent question of all is what to do about it, and whether the United States should continue to invest in a Pakistani military whose assurances that it does not work with terrorists carry less weight than ever.

Pakistani officials, who feel betrayed by the United States for not informing them in advance about the raid, are responding more defensively by the day.

The biggest question for Pakistan is whether the event prompts a reconsideration of its security strategy, which has long depended on militant proxies, including groups entwined with Al Qaeda.

American officials are certain to use the fact that Bin Laden had taken shelter in Pakistan to press the country for a clearer break from its past. Both sides have an interest in preserving some form of the status quo. Pakistan would like to keep the billions of dollars in aid that flow from the United States. The United States would like to prevent this nuclear-armed Muslim nation from turning more hostile, hosting terrorist networks and complicating efforts to end the war in Afghanistan. But the challenges ahead were revealed in how the outrage over the Bin Laden raid has cut differently in Pakistan and the United States.

For the United States, it has raised the issue of whether any assurance provided by the Pakistani military can be trusted, including the security of its nuclear arsenal. The army has insisted it is adequately protected from extremists, but has resisted security assistance from the United States that it considers too invasive. “We can press Pakistan until the cows come home on its nuclear program,” said Michael Krepon, a co-founder of the Stimson Center in Washington, which works on programs to reduce nuclear weapons. “But they are not going to do the things that we would like them to do that they don’t want to do.”

In Pakistan, commentators who consider the nuclear weapons the country’s most valued asset have raised another concern: In light of the American operation, are the weapons safe from a raid by the United States, or even India?

Meanwhile, the chief of the army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, and the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, have remained silent about what they knew or did not know about Bin Laden’s presence.

They have both met with President Asif Ali Zardari since the American raid, but no mention has been made in public of those discussions. Civilian politicians have been virtually absent.

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani left for France on Tuesday, but said Wednesday that he would cut short his trip and return home. Senior ministers in the cabinet failed to turn up in Parliament to offer any explanations on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Instead, the Foreign Office and the information minister, apparently on orders from the military, issued statements intended to explain the shortcomings.

In Parliament on Wednesday, Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said the American helicopters had evaded detection by radar “due to hilly terrain” and use of “nap of the earth” flying techniques, an account that failed to comfort almost anyone.

The Foreign Office defended the fact that Bin Laden was not detected because the high security walls at his house in Abbottabad were in line with a culture of privacy. These scant explanations fueled more speculation.

One of the military’s biggest advocates, Kamran Khan, a journalist whose nightly television show garners big audiences, led the chorus: “We had the belief that our defense was impenetrable, but look what has happened. Such a massive intrusion and it went undetected.”

Mr. Khan posed the question on many Pakistani minds: “What is the guarantee that our strategic assets and security installations are safe?”

In some Pakistani quarters, the failure of the army and intelligence agencies to detect Bin Laden, or to do anything about him if indeed his presence was known, prompted calls for an overhaul of the nation’s strategic policies.

“Instead of making more India-specific nuclear-capable missiles, the funds and the energy should be directed to eliminating the terrorists,” said an editorial in the newspaper Pakistan Today.

The editor, Arif Nizami, said the American raid made a mockery of the Pakistani military’s bravura that its fighter jets could shoot down American drones. “You talk of taking out drones, and you can’t even take out helicopters,” Mr. Nizami said.

Some Pakistanis said they were more concerned about the fact that known terrorists were living in their midst than the violation of sovereignty by the Americans.

“The terrorists’ being on our soil is the biggest violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty,” said Athar Minallah, a prominent lawyer. “If Osama bin Laden lives in Abbottabad, there could be a terrorist in my neighborhood.”

[Lalmohan]

given that no journalist in pakistan dares speak without some sort of official cover, the above article seems to indicate that there is indeed two camps at war within the state. it is not clear if the military is in one camp or in both. however the unkil gameplan, as india is compelled to follow, seems to be to install a credible civilian government and undermine military control. recent events may see unkil trying to accelerate that plan. however in that case - we must expect more immediate hostile actions against india and also the hastening of pak balkanisation

[shiv]

I wonder what the shroud over the center is for. Noise damping is an obvious guess?

It may be some sort of noise damping combined with armour plating. Or maybe it is just a bed pan in case OBL needed one during his last moments (I mean spending so much time with Pakis must have 400% inculcated the browning-of-shalwar habit into him).

I thought it might be a radar signature suppressing plate. It you look at the uncovered rotor near the hub there are a lot of little rods and things that, while rotating, might give off a characteristic radar signature.

If you look at the very tip of the tail/fuselage - it is exactly like that of a Blackhawk (a wedge) . I have posted some stuff about that in the aircraft recognition thread.

[Singha]

better IR stealth too - hiding the hot rotating hub section.

[Pratyush]

given that no journalist in pakistan dares speak
SNIP..............
india and also the hastening of pak balkanisation

Lal mullah, I may not reach the conclusion as you have reached, at least not just yet. To me it just an attempt at diverting attention from the real issue of TSPA culpability in hiding OBL in TSP.

If you read the US-TSP interaction over the past month or so, it appears that the game was well orchestrated by both the parties in this game. On the one hand, you have Kiyani, shouting about the soveriginity and on the other you are looking at the US pushing the TSP to take more action.

All this with hindsight seems to be a ruse to lull the TSP population into a false sense of security that the TSPA will defend the nation against any adventure from any one. Less the a week from that time you have the raid killing OBL. This is more then just fishy to me.

May be I am jaded from having watched the GOAT for the past 10 years or so. But it is my gut feel that the TSPA-US played this game quite well. The net result will be that their will be no change as far as India is concerned.

JMT

[abhishek_sharma]

Paki Ambassador to US Husain Haqqani (Video)

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11655

Summary:

1. We are worried about our eastern neighbor. That is why we were not thinking about OBL.
2. Some low-level people were helping OBL. The state of Pakistan is not involved in this OBL affair.
3. We were worried about intrusion from the east. That is why we could not detect American intrusion from the west.

[Nesoj]

For all those doubting OBL's death let me reassure you that he's safe, living with his 3 wives (the 4th was passed on to the Puki's as he got bored of her) in Shangri La. His neighbor is Prabakaran (ex LTTE) whose death is also a mystery and not accepted by LTTE sympathizers. Elvis, of course, is the landlord

[NRao]

Pakistani army shaken by raid to kill bin Laden

[Vikas]

^ Yup you heard it right! In few months from now, USA will hand over Kashmir to TSP in a glittering ceremony at Tatta Pani in Jammu.
China will be given Ladakh for the services provided. As usual no one cares about Jammu.

[amdavadi]

yeah while we are at it...We can sell sindh,baluchistan & rest of moth eaten place to higest bidder.

[Sanku]

[Pranav]

in which case you should stop blaming the ACM and start blaming pakistan. it's not his fault that pakistanis are loonies.

and in any case, 'no comments' would have had FAR worse fallout.

singha ji, it's the former. brenner's detailed comments make it clear that pakis were not told even during the incident as we had speculated but after it was over.

I told you so -

Pakistan warns ... India against covert operations

In an apparent reference to India, Bashir said: "Any other country that would ever act (similarly) on the assumption that it has the might ... will find it has made a basic miscalculation."

He added: "We see a lot of bravado in our region... from the military, air force, which state that this can be repeated.

"We feel that sort of misadventure or miscalculation will result in a catastrophe."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 168389.cms

Why give them an opportunity to bluster.

[Sanku]

Pranav; what according to you should have been ACMs reply to a direct question?

[sum]

^^ So, Pak says that big Indian army is causing Pak to be jittery and so we should start cutting down our army size so that they don't get a opportunity to bluster?
Nowadays, even talking of thinking about hitting Paki terrorists seems to be a "Un-chankian" thing to do..

[Pranav]

Pranav; what according to you should have been ACMs reply to a direct question?

The interviewer should have been told not to ask such a question, at least for a few weeks. Not such a big deal, but still it was predictable that the Paks would try to salvage some H&D by blustering at the Yindoos.

[armenon]

1. How did such a large no of computers / HDD's get recovered from a place that did not have an internet connection

Almost all Pakistani telecom providers offers EDGE service over wireless. There is no need to have a wired internet or phone connection to have this.

http://www.ufone.com/mobPro_edgeusb.aspx
http://www.telenor.com.pk/pressCenter/p ... 75&lang=en
http://groups.google.com/group/telecom- ... 0995a99c28

Google mobile broadband in Pakistan and you will get more hits.

[Lalmohan]

i dont think they would have risked any IP address locatable to that building
most likely messages were saved to the pen drives and then taken elsewhere for onward transmission
al-q security on comms is known to be tight

[shiv]

Why give them an opportunity to bluster.

Pranav - there are many layers here and I believe you are ignoring that. Pakistan's knee jerk reaction to something said by an Indian armed force chief was hardly a warning. It was a little fart in India's sirection on the lines of "There will be catastrophe". of course there will - for Pakistan.

But the TV media (Times Now, CNNN/IBN) have dhoti-soilingly referred to that statement as ""hitting back at India" and "warning India". Our media are full of idiots - who are either looking to provoke a reaction or themselves interpret such statements as "warnings' or "backlash" or "demarche". A very large number of Indians seem to see their own nation as weak and powerless and other as strong and the media reflect that. It really should have been reported as Paki bluster of Paki bravado and laughed off - but it flashed ever 3 seconds on TV as "Pakistan warns India".

[armenon]

i dont think they would have risked any IP address locatable to that building
most likely messages were saved to the pen drives and then taken elsewhere for onward transmission
al-q security on comms is known to be tight

There are ways to hide the IP address and the data transmitted. Pron sites are banned in almost all the middle east countries via filters and proxy servers by the respective governments. There are corner shops selling charge cards for vpn servers hosted in Europe etc which allows the user to bypass the local restriction.

They have enough and more sympathizers living in UK and Europe and setting up an encrypted vpn link for internet access is not really a big deal if they don't want to use a commercial provider for security reasons.

Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if Khan analyst's snoops and vets any and every vpn link coming out of Pakistan for obvious reasons

[Aaryan]

before I answer, this is the problem with reading pakistani forum and blogs without a filter.
read deafNdumb if you want but keep its gyan out of BR.
kindly keep BS from paki sources to those sites. do not litter this place with garbage.

[/quote]


Sir, i dint knew that asking questions is prohibited in BR, its not littering. I would rather call it a debate. If u belive that BR should have only one point of view and others should either shut up or take the risk of being called garbage, then i would prefer the 2nd option. I hope u read about the process of thesis, antithesis, synthesis.. If questions are not raised how come any one will know the truth and about the ambiguities in the version and try to find out the hidden truth. I don’t think Unkil will invite any of us to give the 1st hand account of the event and what actually happened. Today u may criticize for asking questions but I hope time will prove who is right and who is wrong.. Will rest my case and try and not litter the place with garbage with my questions..
PS: Chanakya sir.. Thanks for understanding my point.

[sanjeevpunj]

Next please.........I want to hear how D company kingpin went the way OBL went.