China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

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RamaY
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by RamaY »

Gaur wrote: That looks like a UFO conspiracy page at a glance. Is there really something worthy of reading there or were you being sarcastic at Proff Das? :-?
No Gaur ji.

I was just pointing out that one reference. Why did he reach similar observation, is my point...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Gaur »

^^
I see. Sometimes it is difficult to understand the humorous intentions (or the absence of it) in posts. :)
Last edited by Gaur on 06 May 2011 20:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
Sirji, I find myself mystified every time I read the good professor's theory of aircraft stealth depending upon phase of moon! :-?
What does that mean?
Visibility with night vision devices and sensitive low light detectors I guess. Just a guess BTW - I am no expert - but Das seems to know a lot more than I do.
I think what he means that Stealth of an aircraft depends on many factors ( climate ,maintenance ,tolerance ) and an aircraft would maintain its LO or it would get degraded depending on how well all of these factors can come into play in actual combat. JMT

But B-2 is an extreme example of stealth and engineering , there has been evolution in stealth where aircraft like JSF is claimed to require no special climate control hanger for maintenance and uses material that does not degrade even if the material gets materials gets damaged due to hits or other factors.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

sanjeevpunj wrote:The recent saving of a Chinese merchant Ship from Somalian pirates, 450 KM off Karwar's coast will definitely improve Indo-China relations.
Sino-Indo, perhaps.

PLA-Indo? :( . No chance in the near future. Unless we can see them reducing the number of roads built around AP or the like it will be diff to tell.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ranjithnath »

got this pic from starikki via keypubs
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look at the size of the canards on that bird!!
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ranjithnath »

more pics(courtesy keypubs)
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ranjithnath »

^^the first pic claims to be sensors for EO DAS .
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

What is EO DAS?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ArmenT »

Gaur wrote:^^
Sirji, I find myself mystified every time I read the good professor's theory of aircraft stealth depending upon phase of moon! :-?
What does that mean?
'Phase of the moon' is also a colloquial expression meaning 'depending on arbitrary unknown factors'. We use it all the time in the IT world (e.g. Windows bluescreens depending on phase of moon), though this slang term is pretty widespread in other fields as well.
See this link for more details.

As for some of the other guesses that Prof. Das posted:
Production was limited because there are not enough appropriate targets to strike. The technology is wonderful, but "it don't make sense!"
True. This plane was designed to make strikes deep in the former Soviet Union. After the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 90s, the raison d'etre (or 'raisin-dieter' if you prefer) of the aircraft was gone and there was no need to make additional aircraft. At the same time, the US economy was having troubles too and President Bush Sr. was under pressure to make budgetary cuts.
The aircraft was too expensive to produce. I doubt this. It is the first two dozen that are expensive. Thereafter costs should decline significantly.
The actual facts are that the original congressional order asked for 132 aircraft to be produced and Northrop priced them at about $400 mil per bomber. Then a little while later, Congress reduced the order to 75 aircraft and Northrop had to up the price to about $800 mil per. Then they reduced it to 21 bombers and the price jumped to about $2.2 billion per bomber. Why?? Because Northrop had spent a huge amount up front on R&D, as well as setting up a specialized plant and tools and hiring shop personnel who were cleared at the highest levels, all so that they could start manufacturing the B2. They had to recover their costs somehow, which is why they had to increase the price per aircraft when the # of planes ordered went down.

About 5 years later, Northrop offered to build the USAF 20 more bombers at the cost of $550 million each. They could now offer a lower price since they'd recovered their R&D and tooling costs. USAF didn't bite though.
Stealth is difficult to maintain. The bases are extremely special and the aircraft probably have to undergo not only very critical pre-flight preparations and checks but elaborate post launch procedures to ensure stealth is intact during the climb through 'contaminated' lower levels. Guam in mid-pacific is unlikely to be dusty. How about North Indian summer?
It is true that stealth is difficult to maintain and the aircraft need a lot of maintenance per flight. E.g. they apparently need to apply some special sealants after the pilots have got into the aircraft, to coat the bomb bays, doors etc to reduce the radar signature. One hour of B2 flight reportedly needs 100+ hours of ground maintenance. In addition, the aircraft need a large air-conditioned hangar to maintain the stealth properties of their coatings. Speaking about Guam vs. North India and dusty conditions, it might be worth to point out that one of the airbases that the B2 Spirit live in is the Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is an extremely dusty and hot environment.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by saip »

shiv wrote:What is EO DAS?
Electro Optical Distributed Aperture System (Where will we be without uncle Google?)

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... targeting/
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by manum »

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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by VinodTK »

China least potent among N-powers, says Harvard study
Zhang's article in the "Science and Global Security" says China stopped production of enriched uranium in 1987 and plutonium in 1990, diverting resources towards nuclear fuel used for civilian purposes. A careful satellite study of Chinese facilities and calculations of use of fissile material had led to these estimates.

China's nuclear programme was aided by the erstwhile Soviet Union before Russia broke cooperation after Mao Zedong's assertive policies. The facilities were then located in south-west China — far from the coast and border with the Soviet Union — and became operational in the 1970s.

The new plutonium estimate, says Zhang, is consistent with a US department of energy assessment from 1999 that China had a stockpile of 1.7–2.8 tonnes of plutonium for weapons.

The stocks might be more modest than estimated, but this does not necessarily spell comfort for India as most of China's missiles are in the mid-range that covers the Indian landmass. Some Western reports put China's stockpile at 240 warheads, with 175 in active mode and 65 in reserve. But many missiles are not clearly distinguished as nuclear capable, fuelling confusion and panicky reactions.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

ranjithnath wrote:^^the first pic claims to be sensors for EO DAS .
The backside view of the EO DAS

Image
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Please bear with me folks. I am not a mathematician. Imagine a horizontal circle around an aircraft that is flying level. A circle is 360 degrees right? Imagine that to be an "equator"

Fine. Now for every degree of that horizontal circle you can draw one vertical circle - so that there are 360 vertical circles that are based on the same center point as the horizontal circle - making up a full sphere. These are like longitude lines

What I am saying is that an aircraft that needs 360 degree awareness cannot do with 360 degrees in a plane. It needs awareness over the surface area of a sphere consisting of 360 x 360 rectangles and triangles. No public information is available as far as I can tell if F-35 has awareness in all directions of a sphere. 360 degrees does not cut it. No point talking about the propaganda of J-20.

I think any nation that has developed an aircraft will under stand that initial prototypes are required primarily to prove structural integrity and aerodynamics. This requires a lot of monitoring and telemetry equipment, Gradually - as the required data is gained and confidence is gained in the handling and the material integrity of the prototype, other prototypes are added into which new systems such as radar and avionics are added. Each of these systems itself requires monitoring and testing separately and this comes after the initial telemetry devices are removed. We have seen how the process evolves with our own SDRE YellSeeYay. If the Chinese are not doing that they are making a mistake, If they lose one prototype they will never know what went wrong unles testing is thorough. I don't think the Chinese aviation people are that stupid.

That only means that our Chinese internet friends are themselves being taken for a ride if they think that one single J-20 prototype or even 2 - of which the first flight was January 2011 is now flying with avionics for "360 degree" sensors. Give me a break please.

I admit that these things are surely planned for the future, But then even I am planning on adding Angelina Jolie and Katrina Kaif to my already bloated harem :roll:
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Rant 2:

Sorry folks. I can't help feeling that I, and a whole lot of you are being made ulloos by images of aircrfat with circles painted on showing dhoti-shiver causing stuff. Please. wtf?

I mean if you have a brand new "stealthy plane" prototype please think why you would make these holes and bulges in that prototype. People will tell me that these are for testing purposes. OK I admit that even if the final EO avionics is not installed you need to test the aircraft with all those pods and bulges of integrity, stealth etc. Fine Fine Fine. No argument. But people - just look at technology. You have an aircraft with a bulge or a pod designed to hold avionics. Tomorrow - you put the avionics inside and test. Typically something goes wrong. Something fails to work as expected. Something overheats. Something crashes. What you do then is to redesign the equipment, put something new or different. You may need to change the configuration of the bulge or housing itself which may not be perfect. Then the new shape has to be optimized for stealth and tested. A lot of minor design changes will be needed. And a lot more testing. Anyone who even follows the design and development of complex technology will know this.

But when that is true - wtf? Why TF are we seeing photos with imaginary circles talking of EO pods and imaginary lines talking or internal bays?

I don't know about you guys. I think that someone is trying to mak an ulloo of me.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by RamaY »

Shivji,

The Nisachari and Vasikarani projects of DRDO will take care of J2o. Their stealth program is best suited for their internal and Paki consumption. Let them spend some $B on a project that builds a bridge to nowhere... :wink:
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ranjithnath »

shivsaar,that is why i wrote"claims to be the sensors for DAS".i had posted a pic with couple of arrows pointing to its belly and nose so thought it would require some clarification of what the chinese "claims" that to be.please bear the heat on me :D
regardless of what the chinese certainly have a way to do PR now!!releasing all the pics at the same time saying the project is ultrasecret so that there is no information on public domains :lol:
Last edited by Gerard on 08 May 2011 21:33, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: please avoid offensive terms. Edited to "chinese"
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

ranjithnath wrote:shivsaar,that is why i wrote"claims to be the sensors for DAS".i had posted a pic with couple of arrows pointing to its belly and nose so thought it would require some clarification of what the chinese "claims" that to be.please bear the heat on me :D
regardless of what the chinese certainly have a way to do PR now!!releasing all the pics at the same time saying the project is ultrasecret so that there is no information on public domains :lol:
:D It's OK ranjithnath - its not about you - but it is entirely possible that I am losing it. Or alternatively I am right. The more I look around at the media and "analyses" the more I begin to feel that the ratio of clued up to clueless is miniscule. Sorry to go OT - but you have to bore yourself watching 2-3 minutes of CNN analysis of Bin Laden family video to realise how stupid analyses can get.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by chackojoseph »

^^^^ You are right. I too am not exactly delighted by WS-10 successes every year. Needless to say, Chinese are paper tigers and totall depend on Russians.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by manum »

The biggest slap will be LCA mk2 exports on china's propaganda...If we had never worked on LCA we were always susceptible to such propaganda, but now since we are well aware of nitpicks of R&D, It can be easily gauged who is upto what.

and it is essential we train all the other nation around china and build our own NATO...having common platforms of MIGs Sukhoi's and LCA
exports...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Don wrote: The backside view of the EO DAS

Image
By Chinese propaganda standards this photo is a bad one. China is falling behind. I yearn for the days when al-photoshoppe wouid create a row of tanks 40 abreast and 1000 long to make viewer shiver. The new open China is losing it. This photo is like a woman who has raised her skirt to the level of her belly button and above that are marked two arrows that read "nipples"

The only purpose such a labelled photograph can serve is not to prove that China has some high tech 360 degree sensors a la F-35 but merely to give the impression that its all coming. A jingoistic exhortation to the comrades to rally behind the flag as they march on into the future singling "The east is Red" in one voice. Really - this is a bad non informative photo that means nothing.

if an Indian put a photo of an Indian aircraft with such markings he would be laughed off the forum as a fraud.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by sum »

This photo is like a woman who has raised her skirt to the level of her belly button and above that are marked two arrows that read "nipples"
The photo acquired a whole new meaning ( in my eyes) after reading this comment... :rotfl: :rotfl:

Seriously need a spill alert before such comments on a "serious thread"..
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Sid »

Shiv, all the evolutionary steps in fighter jet you just mentioned are required if your are creating everything form scratch. But if you just reverse engineer it then.... :wink:

F-35 fighter computer program hacked
http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/F35Figh ... gramHacked
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by manum »

I am an architect and I'll try to explain something, if it will make sense...

We work with drawings of buildings, details, designs and many structural, technical details overlapped over the main design or understanding of subject/ theme/ philosophy...and elaborated with various forms of drawings, plans elevation, sections, perspectives, 3d etc....
Now when you see a building, an experienced Architect can judge correlating many things about me I have done in past and seeing drawings again and again can know what I really did...Now question is will he/she will copy my design exactly by studying my building altogether, and create exact copy...He can copy the idea take it step further, make the idea his/her own.

but its impossible to reverse engineer the building, because many decision Architect has taken is not really told by seeing drawing, so one will never really understand what happened and why and it'll be months of process to understand what happened with the drawing, and if one is playing safe and just doing everything exactly as drawing, one might create exact building but still the reason will be lost and so the design...result will be a mediocre effort, but yes a building.

One way I am trying to say its impossible to reverse engineer an approach and the directions taken...and its a futile effort to do it...reverse engineering can be a good method to make money, but It'll never give a product equal to original...and in the process one would go through more arduous and extensive time period than creating an original design.

you can not reverse engineer the things F35 seem to have and make an equivalent ...you can study the idea and make it your own...
I have heard russian did reverse some of Western designs...But I strongly think they studied it and even tried to make it by looking at the details, but in the process they kep on applying their own logic and hence they ended up creating totally different thing out of same think...This is what I also do, I study many designs, and sometimes try to copy them, but in process of copying the whole thing takes a different shape...

and then the direction it takes becomes my discourse...and sometimes the idea i started with gets redundant and new idea comes into existence...

It might be useless or OT talk...but I felt compelled to tell my opinions about reversing...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by jai »

There is an old Hindi saying -"naqal key liye bhi Akal chaiheye"

Loosely translates to say that you need some intelligence to copy effectively" ie knowing what, how much to copy and how to adapt it to get what you need while making sure it does not look like a copy. :wink:
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

@ Manum: OT, but still very relevant. You put it very succintely. I think it's time us SDRE's quit dhoti shivering and just got down to getting things done as needed.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Kailash »

Army chief briefs PM on China’s role in POK

Does anyone remember the last time our PM or his government openly confronting the Chinese? They are constantly harrassing us with stapled visas, capture/killing of fishermen by the SL navy, lobbying against us on every major issue, building N-reactors for pak, keeping us out of the security council, ring of pearls, and now stationing troops in Pakistan.

Human rights atrocities, autonomy of tibet, LAC, dam across bhramputra, taxes or ban on imports, take ULFA/Maoist connections to Chinese arms, their listening posts, conterfeit auto parts and medicines, waking up ambassidors at the middle of the night.... we can blow up any of these issues. If only we had the guts to put our foot down and say - "enough... now take a step back. If you dont want friendship, we have enough cards to play against you". The government's memory seems to be as shortlived as DDM's and our determination to pursue these issues is seriously lacking.

So they are ahead in terms of infrastructure and arms production capabilities. So what? Why is that being turned to some sense of "wanting to appease" or "ensure never to offend" the Chinese? Why is the Indian reaction so mute in this matter?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

to me they could be emergency fuel dump openings.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vPAYMG2Dtyo/T ... FszHgw.jpg
rafale-M has a single opening somewhere above or between the exhaust ...
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Sean Rowe »

Kailash wrote:Army chief briefs PM on China’s role in POK

Does anyone remember the last time our PM or his government openly confronting the Chinese? They are constantly harrassing us with stapled visas, capture/killing of fishermen by the SL navy, lobbying against us on every major issue, building N-reactors for pak, keeping us out of the security council, ring of pearls, and now stationing troops in Pakistan.

Human rights atrocities, autonomy of tibet, LAC, dam across bhramputra, taxes or ban on imports, take ULFA/Maoist connections to Chinese arms, their listening posts, conterfeit auto parts and medicines, waking up ambassidors at the middle of the night.... we can blow up any of these issues. If only we had the guts to put our foot down and say - "enough... now take a step back. If you dont want friendship, we have enough cards to play against you". The government's memory seems to be as shortlived as DDM's and our determination to pursue these issues is seriously lacking.

So they are ahead in terms of infrastructure and arms production capabilities. So what? Why is that being turned to some sense of "wanting to appease" or "ensure never to offend" the Chinese? Why is the Indian reaction so mute in this matter?
Any direct confrontation with china at this point of time is not in India's interest. India first needs to grow economically and technically and decisively prove that Democracy is not barrier to growth but is a facilitator of growth. And single party rule and dictatorship are irrelevent and raise chinese people against their regime for democracy for human rights there by "soft landing" like Soviet union not like hard landing NaziGermany
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by kmkraoind »

China Tests Helicopter Drone

V750 Unmanned Helicopter Can Rival US Counterparts

Image

Image

Why are the silver tubes on landing bars are hanging downside while flying, is it just for some testing purpose or does it have any utilitarian value? TIA.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Indranil »

^^^ It is not downwards, it is outwards... I believe it is for a bigger base to land on. After it has landed the side ways skids are folded in.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Yagnasri »

I agree with Manum sir views that it is not so easy to copy something. From the reports Chipand tried to do so for Su27 and failed badly. So to think that they can do some copy of F35 is too much.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by manum »

kmkraoind wrote:China Tests Helicopter Drone

V750 Unmanned Helicopter Can Rival US Counterparts

Image

Image

Why are the silver tubes on landing bars are hanging downside while flying, is it just for some testing purpose or does it have any utilitarian value? TIA.
Notice the heels of the Chinese lady...I don't get it, is that a dress code?

It is to create a self balancing...
Image..it distributes the CG I guess, or there can be better explaination.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

That picchar of a stiletto-heeled xiaojie and a sun-tanned helicopter apparently having its way with her..... that needs a NSFW labelling :evil:

Dhoti is shivering with mixed emotions. Darn PLA is good.... Like San Fernando Valley good
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

kmkraoind wrote:China Tests Helicopter Drone

V750 Unmanned Helicopter Can Rival US Counterparts

Image

Why are the silver tubes on landing bars are hanging downside while flying, is it just for some testing purpose or does it have any utilitarian value? TIA.
That helo has a very very broad base indeed. I suspect they must have been made for "hovering tests" close to the ground where any tendency to suddenly topple over due to poor control would be compensated by a part of the broad base touching the ground before that happened.

The skids sticking out in every direction makes for a fairly ugly looking thing.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

looks like they want a naval UAV similar to the fire scout?

meantime USMC is trying another concept - a rotary wing cargo UAV.
http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.com/2010/ ... cargo.html
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Sid »

kmkraoind wrote:China Tests Helicopter Drone

V750 Unmanned Helicopter Can Rival US Counterparts

Image
Why are the silver tubes on landing bars are hanging downside while flying, is it just for some testing purpose or does it have any utilitarian value? TIA.
Beautiful looking prototype. I have to admit whatever subject they pick up, they do stick to it till the end.

I wonder what happened to our NRUAV program :(
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by suryag »

^^^ How different is this from a scaled up RC helicopter. Only when it does things(or meets it advertised specs) that can be demonstrated outside China should any serious person believe it
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Samay »

The Army Commander said China had made inroads around India thus posing substantial challenges not only along the China-Indian border but also along the Line of Control (LoC).

He said ‘a great game is being played by Chinese expansionism and by mushrooming terror networks,’ adding that it was imperative to take control of the situation in Jammu and Kashmir and find a viable solution to internal problems of the State without interference from Pakistan.
Sometime back I predicted that china is planning its own great game there, for that it needs to weaken India.

Its army present in pok can do anything. Recent developments suggest that the terrorist organizations in pukiland and kashmir are looking forward to a strategic one-to-one partnership with china without any dependencies on the useless puki army. It will strengthen them leaps and bounds. They think that since a country like India could not possess risk to nuclear powered yet garib puki army howcome they will hold the pla?

PLA is trying to take their expansion war on a foriegn turf by supporting puki army and terrorists. By that I mean they will strengthen their clout amongst the well nourished asymmetric component of pukistan which is almost as powerful as the puki army in pukistan , they will arm them and could even give them WMD's ...

So LeT is an organization that we have to face , before the situations get worse India should break its silence and somehow drive away pla from pok. It is difficult but not impossible . Since the americans are in afpak and chinese are waiting their exit, we can hope to use their partnership 'without becoming a NATO member 'so that they atleast do one Good thing after wasting so much money and resources,before they get out of afg. Otherwise it will be difficult for us to hold kashmir in future as china would not leave any stone unturned trying to weaken India ..

The communist nation is of course trying to grab as much land and natural resources as possible and our govt. is sleeping tight.
Somebody,wake up the banker please..
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