harbans wrote:Harbans ji, how realistic is that? IMHO not very much. Governance is a "system" of people after all, and if the people implementing the system are crooked, there will be problems no matter how good the "system" looks on paper. I think it has to be both, a strong system with checks and balances AND dedicated people to implement it. A flaw in either one or the other is problematic.
Rudradev Ji, i used that term to define how solid the system of checks and balances should be. if the system was good and reformed, most scams should not have happened. There is a quote i forget by whom, but it goes like this: If you require a genius to run your organization, then it's severely flawed. Because if a person of average skills comes over the organization is doomed, since it requires only a genius to run things. So any organization must be such that even if it has to deal with a person of less than average intellect, it must hold. Ideal i agree an no one will dispute is good policies and dedicated people running it, strengthening the system further.
Harbans ji, forgive me but I see a flaw in your argument. You are categorizing human beings (working within a system) as one of two types; geniuses or duffers. This does not take into account a third category... crooks.
There is no system or organization devised thus far in history, which is so solid that it cannot be subverted by motivated crooks (even if it is perfectly proof against mere duffers or average intellects.) I cannot even imagine what such a system would look like... maybe an artificial intelligence with absolute authority! But that's science fiction.
Hence there have to be provisions for taking out and punishing crooks, over and above any improvements one might make to the system in terms of policy instruments per se. Popular movements that are aimed at getting justice against crooks who have subverted the system, must be recognized for what they are. People who shout down those popular movements and insist that only systemic policy flaws need to be examined in detail... seem to be on the side of the crooks!
Some Mainovadi shills on this thread have sought to reduce the argument to an absurd assertion that "bad policy" is the sole reason behind the problems of corruption that India is facing. That is about as realistic as saying "Kashmir is the root cause" of problems with Pakistan, and ignoring the role of successive generations of Pakistani vested interests in keeping the hostility alive.
I think that's a bit of a stretch linking Kashmir as root problem and lack of reform/ bad policy being responsible for corruption. We know K is not the root problem as we have gone deeper into paks psyche and the 2 nation theory and stuff. But the truth is many problems as illustrated by many examples over the last few pages do clearly indicate that the root cause of corruption is lack of reform/ bad policy. The lack of reform is attracting crooks into politics is known to us all. They know they can make fast money because as before 90's they used to dole out licenses and favors, now they have with them discretionary and other powers they can misuse. Simply put, IF there's a chance of making money by crook in the system, it is going to be exploited. Thus we have to correct things such that those who go into politics don't do so to generate income for themselves and their cronies but do so for really making a difference. That i am sorry is the truth.
I was not linking Kashmir per se to corruption. The link is this: some individuals insist that bad policy and only bad policy is responsible for corruption (rather than the deliberate subversion of adequate policy instruments by motivated crooks.) Such an argument is as disingenuous as the Paki argument that Kashmir and only Kashmir is responsible for India-Pakistan tensions.
As you correctly point out, We have gone deeper into Pak's psyche and 2-nation theory to determine that the Kashmir-only argument is bogus. What needs to be done now, as demanded by popular mass movements, is a sustained study and indictment of the crooks subverting existing policy regimes to profit from corruption. This should not be put aside in favour of diversionary arguments to the effect that the whole problem is one of bad policy and flawed policy instruments... that would be just as bad as accepting the Paki argument that "Kashmir is the root cause."
You can have the best policy instruments in the world, but if their implementation is flawed... and worse still, flawed because the people implementing them are crooked... then the instruments themselves become useless.
Examples illustrated earlier don't indicate this. The system is no longer functioning with the best policy instruments if it cannot withstand someone with crooked instincts getting exposed. To that extent scams getting exposed by Govt policy instruments themselves is a big positive. If you notice the big scams started surfacing only when the system started getting more open. Late 80's onwards.
But what is the use of even the best bricks and mortar if they are just going to lie in a heap in our backyard, if nobody actually takes them and fixes the wall?
So obviously the above example is where a system does not have adequate implementation, methods to discover breaches etc. Some flaw in it. Problem is in the system responsible for that.
On the contrary Harbans-ji. There are plenty of examples wherein existing policy instruments have been subverted (successfully) by crooks in order to commit crimes against the nation, or cover up those crimes. Consider this:
Vasu wrote:Not only has she returned the report, the CONgress won't allow it to be discussed again either.
Cong won't allow PAC to discuss 2G again
With Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar returning the controversial Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report on 2G spectrum allocations to the panel's chairman Murli Manohar Joshi , the Congress looks determined not to allow the issue to be taken up again in the reconstituted panel. Though the Congress has not reacted formally to the rejection of the report submitted by Joshi, its members on the panel said there was no chance of the issue being taken up again.
"The matter is over. There is a new committee now and it will discuss other issues," a Congress MP on the panel said. Congress sources said the Speaker had rejected the report on procedural grounds, pointing out that a majority had not adopted the report. With the report being sent back, the committee has a choice to consider the issue again if a majority of members present and voting agree with the move.
The controversial report, submitted by Joshi a day before his previous term as chairman ended on April 30, had scathing remarks on Prime Minister's Office, Home Minister P Chidambaram and former telecom minister A Raja. The party would obviously not want to revisit the issue and expose itself to more embarrassment .
The PAC and JPC are policy instruments formulated with good intentions, exactly for the purpose of inquiring into such situations as governmental corruption in the 2G scam. On the face of it, nothing is wrong with such institutions as the PAC.
But motivated crooks like the Maino regime, can invariably find a way to make these policy instruments useless... as they have done in the above situation. In fact that is exactly a case of "bricks and mortar lying in a useless heap because no one is using them to fix the wall!" Criminal subversion is preventing these policy instruments from being used to the effect that was intended.
I agree with you that greater transparency in the system is at least exposing SOME of the scams and corruption that have been taking place (though one has to wonder, what all might have gone on that was not exposed.)
Apart from Lokpal Bill type mechanisms, there have to be severe repercussions for any government... in this case the Maino Regime... which is subverting policy mechanisms that already exist to achieve their criminal ends. Otherwise the Lokpal Bill can be made useless, just as the PAC has been made useless, no?
Meanwhile, discussing anything else, by anybody else, is characterized as motivated, or "political game playing", or "vengeful." This is completely spurious. If someone points out the fact that your chowkidar is a crook acting in league with the thieves, should he be made to shut up while the details of bricks and mortar are discussed? If the chowkidar is punished for his crime, is that "vengeful", or is it merely justice that will serve as a disincentive to future chowkidars with crooked ambitions? Either way, why are only the bricks and mortar considered "legitimate" topics of discussion?
Rudradev Ji, i think no one is saying there must not be punishment. But vengeance or floggings and executions will alone not solve these problems. One has to look beyond the political party thing in this case. Fact is systemic reform is key to solving the corruption problem. Too many examples have been given in the last few pages.
Harbans ji, for every example of reform, there can be an example of how the policy instrument formulated by that reform was subsequently subverted in future. See again the case with the PAC and Meira Kumar.
The criminals (especially if they are in power, as the Maino Regime is) can always stay one step ahead of any solution that is purely predicated on systemic reform... because they are already on top of the system.
Nothing stops them from subverting something like the Lokpal Bill, the very instant that it is introduced. In fact, that is exactly what they have been trying to do with the Lokpal Bill since their apparent acceptance of the terms of Anna Hazare's Jantar Mantar agitation (diluting the provisions, trying to exempt the PM, etc.)
And that is why, it will never be sufficient to simply try and implement reforms by working within a system whose implementation is already controlled and subverted by criminals. They will subvert any reform or policy instrument before it even gets off the ground. Apart from such reforms, political mechanisms and popular actions to bring down and punish the criminals who are already on top of the system, are an absolute pre-requisite if systemic reforms are going to be at all meaningful.
.but now I know , Indians allow themselves to be sold and enslaved..
) specially for those who are christian and support congress
as they used to say in school 'le li guru'.
What has Pramod Mahajan got to do with current series of scams ? 
At least he never claimed that he is some Mr. Interity or honest man of India.