Prem ji,Prem wrote:Dont Dismiss Deer ajit_tr
RajeshA has already proposed joing with few choicest percentage of Agyani Pakistani Jnani in wholy purchased "matri-money".
That some "earlier Indians" were abject surrender monkeys and are now called pakis.sum wrote:sobetter way to manage Pakistan is to join them.Thats what even earlier Indians did.
What is this supposed to mean in normal English ( not Pinglish)?
NikhilB ji,NikhilB wrote:RajeshA jii - thanks for replying my counter arguments. I agree with your thoughts to some extent but I think they are too far fetched. Before we conquer and re-covert pakis, we have IM hurdle to cross, which we haven't done so far. Some sections of IMs are still lured by Saudis and pakis evern their generations have been pure SDREs in appearance and character. So isn't it an overambitious step to aim for pakis/afgans even before IM's minds are not fully conquered.
That is why, I have tried to flesh out the many details and consider it a long drawn process over the next 25 years.NikhilB wrote:In business context, any change management needs to happen gradually from current state to target state. The process has to be laid out carefully, and any abruptive change causes discomfort and resistance.
If acquisition of one SDRE woman caused them so joy, how much pain would it cause when they see a few prominent faces walking over into the arms of SDREs or even Indics. For them it is a life-and-death competition, and with every Pakeezah they hear of who has walked over, they will die a thousand deaths.NikhilB wrote:Your example of vina malik is good one. We need that sort of change more and moe - kind of reverse sania mirza. We know sania mirza did big mistake, and she wont live a day in pakis (who knows malik will request indian citizanship one day to play in IPL), but harm is done already. Pakis felt proud for whole 2 months during that period and forgot their daily bombings. They dont care whether malik leaves pakiland or not - they just proved themselvs to be TAFTA against 1 billion SDREs..so point scored !
Yes Money is the Key. Being bought is sometimes worse than being conquered!NikhilB wrote:Money is key. India has money. It has to produce more TAFTA and SDRE combinations with Indic names. We have taken pride in SDRE because we beleive character, and not appearance, is important. But pakis don't seem to be believe that.
RajeshA ji, very good point. Nature has ordained that a combination of attitudes, justly working together in their proper place and time, is required for victory.RajeshA wrote:There is a disadvantage with this model. Our strength is based on our national institutions. As soon as we are seen to go into an offensive mode (say on Proselytization, Marriage to IM women, Restraint on "Religious Freedoms", etc.) it creates a disturbance within our borders, and thus weakens our national institutions. ...
The other model (inwards model) is to start with Pakistan, and then work inwards. Somewhere the IMs do receive their strength from the knowledge that there are other bastions of Islam besides them outside India but inside the Indian Subcontinent, with whom they share a sort of historical contiguity. This makes them feel, that they are not alone against the huge majority of Indics in India. The IMs also receive some ideological guidance from Pakistan. But in India, to some extent we have also been successful in containing the IMs in a black box - more or less satisfied with the political system in India, with the level of security they enjoy, etc. There have been some pronouncements in view of the Islamic implosion in Pakistan, that Indian Islam is a bit different, which too is positive, because it shields India from IM mischief when India takes on Pakistan.
Carl ji,Carl wrote:raudro 'dbhutash cha shringAro
hAsyam veero dayA tathA
bhayAnakarash cha beebhatsaH
shAntaH sa-prema-bhaktikaH
In my opinion, the best option is what I would call strategic consolidation. That is, India, the US and its allies, must "step aside", let the holocaust happen, and try to contain in every way possible its spread beyond Pakistan's borders and the Pashtun region now dominated by the Taliban.
As the dimensions and ramifications of the "implosion" become apparent, the US, NATO and India can deploy their military and diplomatic resources in whatever manner they deem necessary and possible to contain, ameliorate and mediate the undoubtedly pervasive violence that will ensue and must run its course.
With regard to Afghan policy in the face of a Pakistani political meltdown, and an inevitable consequent upsurgence of Taliban militancy in the Pashtun region, former US ambassador to India (2001-3) Robert D. Blackwill has offered a highly imaginative interim solution.
The US, he says, should for the time being consolidate its forces and resources in the non-Pashtun portions of the country where Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazarras predominate and originally formed the core of the Northern Alliance which in concert with the US after 9/11 defeated the Taliban.
His observations concerning the interim realignment of forces in Afghanistan in the face of the worst-case scenario are highly pertinent.
"Washington should accept," he declares, "that the Taliban will inevitably control most of the Pashtun south and east and that the price of forestalling that outcome is far too high for the United States to continue paying."
Even prior to the impending collapse of Pakistan, or indeed if in the end it avoids this terminal fate, Blackwill rightly concludes that "the emergence of a clear division in Pakistan might provide just the sort of shock the Pakistani military apparently needs in order to appreciate the dangers of the game it has been playing for decades."
Leading American commentators, including this one, are now convinced that Pakistan is only a furtive step away from ceasing to be a viable modern state capable of carrying out its responsibilities as a purported "non-NATO ally" of the US in the war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda and other jihadi extremists.
Yes, this implies a comprehensive realignment of forces, resources and strategic orientation towards the Af-Pak theatre. But in the face of a steadily disintegrating, politically pathological Pakistan state, it is only a matter of time until such a realignment takes place anyway. For US-Pakistan relations, as we have known them, it is indeed the end of the affair.
Harold Gould is Visiting Scholar in the Center for South Asian Studies, University of Virginia
From drone attacks to constant admonishing by the Obama administration, to a weak economy, an insurgency and target-killing of the non-Baloch in Balochistan, and a weekly dose of suicide attacks on common people, all support a perception that Pakistan is collapsing. However, this conventional understanding may not be accurate. What these events suggest is that there is a growing crisis and contradiction within and between the institutions of the state in Pakistan and these crises and contradictions, evaluated differently, might offer a completely divergent narrative. What may be collapsing is the political settlement that has existed for many decades and this may be a positive development. Democractic forces have an opportunity now to end the military’s domination of Pakistan.
Based on a long list of events and responses around them, one can unambiguously answer this question as a definite “yes”.
This may be OT here but in the context of your post. This is common in India at various times periods in India. From AP itself, there were instances of lack of girls for brahmin-viadeeki community in 1940s-50s and the folks in Guntur/Prakasam districts went to Palghat-Kerala to marry girls from Iyer community. Rajus/Gajapathis (Ramalinga Raju/Ashok Gajapathiraju) West Godavari to districts in Orissa - used to marry girls from Rajputs of Rajasthan (though this is maintaining the pan-Indian Rajah communities). Rajus thing is reciprocal as girls were given as alliances too.Hari Seldon wrote:RajeshA garu,
Here's an article about how some Haryanvi jat bachelors are managing to find wives... from another part of India. Well, Pakjab is much closer than Kerala, I'd say...
This is another way of saying that they are going to stop the tap which funds Pak military machine and the state which for the last 30 years allowed it to keep threaten India and deploy a jihad policy.RajeshA wrote:Published on Jul 03, 2011
By Harold A. Gould
A disintegrating Pakistan: Choices for US and India: Deccan HeraldIn my opinion, the best option is what I would call strategic consolidation. That is, India, the US and its allies, must "step aside", let the holocaust happen, and try to contain in every way possible its spread beyond Pakistan's borders and the Pashtun region now dominated by the Taliban.
Leading American commentators, including this one, are now convinced that Pakistan is only a furtive step away from ceasing to be a viable modern state capable of carrying out its responsibilities as a purported "non-NATO ally" of the US in the war against the Taliban, Al Qaeda and other jihadi extremists.
Hari Seldon ji,Hari Seldon wrote:RajeshA garu,
Here's an article about how some Haryanvi jat bachelors are managing to find wives... from another part of India. Well, Pakjab is much closer than Kerala, I'd say...
The Frankenstein Monster is now bigger than what Dr. Frankenstein can handle alone.Acharya wrote:But why should they ask for India help or talk to Indians.
The Pentagon should get Indian Railways to build railroads through Central Asia, thereby increasing the throughput. It would be best if the railroads built are built to Indian Gauge - 1.676 meters.ranjbe wrote:Unkil implementing Plan B, where they will not be dependent on Paki supply routes in the future, via strengthening the Northern supply line. Todays Washington Post:As recently as 2009, the U.S. military moved 90 percent of its surface cargo through Pakistan, arriving by ship at the port in Karachi and then snaking through mountain passes, deserts and remote tribal areas before crossing the border into Afghanistan. The Pakistan supply lines are served entirely by contractors instead of U.S. military convoys and are vulnerable to bandits, insurgents and natural disasters.
Today, almost 40 percent of surface cargo arrives in Afghanistan from the north, along a patchwork of Central Asian rail and road routes that the Pentagon calls the Northern Distribution Network. Military planners said they are pushing to raise the northern network’s share to as much as 75 percent by the end of this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html“If you look at what we’ve done there in the last two years, we look at it more or less as a logistics miracle,” said Alan F. Estevez, the Pentagon’s principal deputy assistant secretary for logistics.
There is a lot that can be transported over Iran.somnath wrote:If I may, given that India shares no borders with any Central Asian country, or indeed with Af, how is that going to be possible?RajeshA wrote:The Pentagon should get Indian Railways to build railroads through Central Asia, thereby increasing the throughput. It would be best if the railroads built are built to Indian Gauge - 1.676 meters.
If Pentagon is willing to spend some money, India may be willing to deliver a far better logistics network in Central Asia, than happens to be the case right now.
It is also important that the rail network in Central Asia is built to the Indian Gauge.
Indian railways gauge is 1.676m. Russian railways gauge is 1.520 m. In fact, in parts, Iran too uses the Indian gauge.somnath wrote:And well, why should a rail network criss-crossing CA be on Indian gauge, and not the Soviet gauge (whatever that is) that should be the "standard"?
A hiccup from the Chinese is better than a binging spree from them.GuruPrabhu wrote:^^^ With increasing use of containers for goods transportation, the gauge mismatches are not that big a deal. At gauge conversion points, a goods train with 100 wagons of containers can be transferred in a couple of hours with proper design of crane systems.
Chinese will just build such transfer points - it will only be a minor hiccup and not a show stopper.
Dual Gauge is easier if one has a broader gauge first. But if one has the narrower gauge first, as is the case with "standard gauge" which the Chinese have, then expanding it with broad gauge is more difficult.pgbhat wrote: Dual gauge
A_Gupta wrote:One thing with psychological impact will be if India starts doing well in things like Olympic track & field and FIFA soccer and so on. The Pakistani image of perhaps brainy but not brawny Indian will start taking a beating.
Domain-specific rankings differ by country, but sports is apparently always high on the pride priority list for developing nations.The domain-specific national pride battery asks people how proud they are of their country in ten domains: 1) the way democracy works, 2) its political influence in the world, 3) country’s economic system, 4) its social security system, 5) its scientific and technological achievements, 6) its achievements in sports, 7) its achievement in the arts and literature, 8 ) COUNTRY’s armed forces, 9) its history, and 10) its fair and equal treatment of all groups in society.
[...]
General Level of Pride in Specific Domains
Looking across all 34 countries and giving equal weight to each country, people have the most pride in their country’s history (34% very proud)(Table 2). This is closely followed by pride in sports 32%). Next comes national pride in arts/literature (25%) and in science/technology (23%). They are followed by pride in a country’s armed forces (17.5%). Clustered closely together at a lower level is national pride in democracy (12%), economics (12%), the fair and equal treatment of groups (11%), and ones social security system 11%). Bring up the bottom is national pride in ones country’s political influence in the world (8%).
In general, more subjective and cultural dimensions are rated more highly and domains that are more objective and political are rated less highly.
But...According to government’s own estimates out of the 770 million below the age of 35, only about 50 million have access to organised games and sports facilities. This is lower than in countries such as China where 37 per cent of its population, or 480 million citizens, actively participate in education and sports activities.
It is predicted that recreation consumption in India, which includes expenditure on sports, will grow at the rate of 8.9 per cent per annum from $1 billion in 2005 to $6 billion in 2025.
Nihat ji,Nihat wrote:1.) Diplomatic / Political warfare - similar to post 26/11
2.) Economic warfare
3.) Water wars
4.) Military confrontation
5.) Our own proxy War
6.) No action at all
The key is to build a Pushtun Force in Afghanistan, which cooperates closely with India, is firmly in favor of an independent Pushtunistan, and have the connections to influence the Pushtun Taliban in FATA and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.Nihat wrote:If we fight back , we are just giving them what they want and in the process potentially sacrificing our men in uniform, if we don't fight back and deny them the opportunity to fight then we come off looking like bunnies who are too afraid to defend our motherland
harbans wrote:I may be way off track here, but something struck me as being entirely possible. Pakistan is producing Nuclear materials and weapons like no one's business. Reports are saying 200 in a few years. All the while it's evident the State is weakening with a very significant possibility of a fundamentalist (unwashed Jihadi) takeover. PA and ISI today are finding the present setup as very difficult to nuke India, they've tried to provoke India and India has not reacted.
There is a possibility the PA is at some point has reconciled to a complete Mad mullah takeover of the country lock, stock and barrel. The elite RAPE and Army top brass will make it to US/ UK/ EU etc when the country descends in chaos and civil war, Somalia type of situations. From there they will watch mad mullah and India possibly nuke each other and pretend to be the sane faction amongst the extreme Muslims and 'extreme' Hindu's. I say this, as i have always wondered why a country going down the sewer is so damn keen on increasing it's nuke piles to these levels.
Deterrence towards India has clearly worked on 2 occasions for them: Kargil and Parakrama. Therefore it makes little sense to increase nukes to the levels they are going for presently. So does creating a massive fundamentalist structure and nuclear destructive capability and finally deserting it to a leadership that won't hesitate to use it at some point make sense? I think in many ways it's the only thing that makes sense to the Elite RAPE for a few reasons:
1. In case of a complete Jihadi, unwashed Mullah takeover, the Elite manage to escape to the safe confines of the West.
2. They leave a complete and massive Missile and Nuclear weapons set up to target India.
3. From the West they plant articles of == with Hindu right==Taliban, unwashed Jihadi types..we were the only sober party is South Asia type arguments.
4. They manage to escape any eventuality from a Nuke war they have engendered.
A little out of the box folks, but just because it's exactly that, i posted it.
harbans ji,harbans wrote:IN the above it's important to see why the frothing Jihadi in the PA has been unwilling to use Nukes so far. Why he has been curtailed. What motivated him to back off. It's the personal losses. Like Reidel and Shiv Ji much earlier mentioned it's essential to target the individual Officers and there families, now that's something they back off from if one notices. Responsibility.
This scares them the uniformed Jihadi, the individual targeting part. It doesn't scare the unwashed Jihadi though. So how the F do they start hostilities in India, specially when they are collapsing on all fronts, a basket case of an economy, US breathing down their necks and inner regions without escaping responsibility.
The only way i feel is letting Pakistan descend to controlled civil war conditions and allowing at an appropriate point a take over by the unwashed. Escape for the RAPE is very urgent at this juncture. They are probably making arrangements or already have for that part.
This is the message we should keep on repeating. There is no escape for Pakis, where ever in the world they may try to hide. That is an oath every Indian should take! The first step in the Renewal of Indian Civilization in the Aftermath of a Nuclear Exchange with Pakistan starts with cleansing the Planet of each and every person who has ever called themselves a Pakistani.RajeshA wrote:Thirdly every Pakjabi man, woman and child regardless of where ever they may be living on the face of the earth or beyond, will be butchered till there is no trace of that qaum any more on this earth. They will be safe neither in Queenstan, nor in Amreeka, nor in Canada, nor in Norway, simply nowhere. India would be putting up killer commandos in all these lands, and their work would be of hunting down the Pakis, and cremating them alive. No Paki caught would ever end up in a grave or have his last rites read. They will simply be fed to the pigs!
If they are inaccessable within Poakland, get them overseas. No one stopping Maino to use Mafiaso and pay from Swiss account. They can make it look like accidents.Carl wrote:^^
6. Also, there may emerge grassroots networks for reciprocal terror formed by enraged Indian citizens who have borne the brunt of TSP terrorism, or whose brethren inside TSP are under constant threat. These groups may carry out revenge strikes inside TSP. The GoI must immediately condemn these Indian Non-State Actors and open an official dossier investigating the hoodlums. The said groups will probably aim at:
(a) RAPE people and infrastructure
(b) Terror tanzeems
(c) Paki national and cultural landmarks and symbols
Sociologically speaking, this is a natural phenomenon bound to occur, completing the circle of people-to-people contacts initiated by WKK's, in order to meet Pakis in the full gamut of different moods that they come to us in.
Sravan wrote:Ever heard of viral marketing? leveraging social media to bring change. Do you know how efficiently you can control mass opinion with social media?
leverage the crowd sourced media and you can immediately create a medium to call out others on bullshit. How do you think wikileaks works.
Short term goals are simple. Attack a few terror camps which we have solid evidence about. I'm telling you regarding both short term and long term goals. However to achieve the short term goals as a citizen of a democracy you need to establish a system even if it's patchy to bring about change. Create a citizen driven institution with or without the approval of any governance to bring about information. Knowledge is power, leverage it and you will be successful in bringing about change.
Sravan wrote:Why should we depend on people who have failed to deliver? Either change the system or make the system a non-party to the problem by approaching it yourself. Show leadership in your community, arrange meetings, raise awareness. Get shit done instead of talking about it or contemplating what will happen. Doing it will give you the experience, the know how, the infrastructure, the drive to bring about change. The more change you bring, the more efficient you will be at influencing society.
Lalmohan wrote:the backdrop to this is unkil's presence in afghanistan, unkil's demands on the TSPA and the TSPA's counter by raising the "indian bogey" which finally the americans are getting wise to. so what better than to provoke the indian bogey - not enough so that it becomes serious, but just enough to keep the disequilibrium boiling. paquis are great at doing just enough
terror outfits in this case are fairly incidental to the whole thing.
i've trawled through a few international papers - most are happy to point fingers at pakistan, but interestingly, where there are "south asian" journalists - then they tend to do a purohit style ==
TSPA wants more than anything for India to lash out, that would immediately cancel all GWOT operations and unite the various beards into a greater jihad
its a real catch-22 situation, and unfortunately the only way out may be a total annihilation of pakistan as we know it
Lalmohan ji,shiv wrote:I would like US aid to stop, and Pakhanastan to go further down the drain. Ideally relations with the US deteriorate so much that the "friends" Pakistan has in the CIA do stop feeding them with critical intel. That is the time to lash out and hit them.Lalmohan wrote: TSPA wants more than anything for India to lash out, that would immediately cancel all GWOT operations and unite the various beards into a greater jihad
