Indian Railways Thread

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 19:35

Singha wrote:a cop with a 6' long danda could go around thrashing anyone who holds these doors open.

that would be awful since the doors are supposed to stay open. beating up people for no reason sounds very paki.

Singha wrote:a middle ground is a door thats like a grill door in apartments - lots of gaps for air to flow. there is no reason why people should be allowed to hang out of trains in any circumstances, and esp not in local trains proceeding at 75+ kmph on a mass of parallel tracks. even if a person falls and somehow recovers , the next train on adjoining tracks will mow him down.

that being said, I believe the current design of mumbai local trains cannot be improved further and is a 50s era POS. we need a std new design rake that is lighter, safer, with better quality of fittings, a fully closing door, AC etc. it will cost more in tickets , but exposing millions of people daily to a 4th world train experience is not the brightest of things to do imho.

we need to cutover from producing the ancient old wagon designs to new era metro and LHB style coaches on a war footing. retire the old crap and sell for scrap value. this just needs funds, not land or other state govt liaison that double tracking or bridge work does. so there aint no excuse for running the type of crapware wagons we do in this era. among top10 economy size countries, our wagons are perhaps the WORST. the AC 1st (non-LHB) coaches apparently havent been built for decades now, old , ratty, with vague smells and costing as much as airfare

all that will achieve nothing if the signaling system is not improved. changing coaches to shiny AC rakes do not increase their passenger carrying capacity. people won't hang from doors if there are enough trains and there would never be enough trains if we don't improve the frequency of trains. and if we are able to improve the frequency of trains many of the problems associated with current EMU trains like overcrowding and associated hazards & discomfort will go away. the locals primarily cater to poor people, a 4-5 times increase in ticket prices would be unaffordable for most. conversely, if ticket prices are not increased these would transform a profit making service into a loss making one. I don't think AC rakes are a must have right now, the Indian lower income group is a decade or two away from being able to afford air conditioned mass transport. the major cities anyway have the metros for intra city travel extending to the suburbs in most cases.

It is not that expensive to get all A/C locals for Mumbai.

For instance recently 129 x 15 coach rakes were brought in for about Rs 2000 Crores. The same set if bought from the Savili factory would be about Rs 5000 crores. When one considers that mumbai is spending Rs 3,500 crores for a monorail system, this may not be too much.

mumbai is not the only city in India to have a suburban rail network, every mid level town and above is connected by one. each such network has a very large number of rakes that would need to be changed. those would also be much more costly to maintain than the plain EMU rakes, not to mention the much higher electricity bill. it's just not the acquisition cost, the running costs would be much higher.

With Respect to HSR the key thing to remember is passenger thru put for profitability. The Shinkansen has a train leaving every 6 minutes and still struggles to be profitable. Even Mumbai Pune will cost in the Rs1,500 ($30) one way range. Every study has said it is wildly wildly non-cost effective right now.

could you do a time/fare comparison with other options, say the volvo service that runs between those 2 cities ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2011 19:38

hmm if the doors are supposed to stay always open, why install them in the first place?

are they used in parking yards at night to keep vandals and homeless out?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 19:42

yup, and so that wagon breakers do not steal the lights and pankha.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Jul 2011 19:44

I don't get it. Doors are supposed to keep people in and out! There is far too much free-riding in trains that having auto-doors serves a dual purpose. There is simply no reason to not have them.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Jul 2011 20:57

If you close the doors you need A/C. No grill system will work. Can't avoid. You will also need professional door closers at each platform to shove people in. Beating them will not work. Preferably w/ gloves and one per door.

Modern A/C coaches, w/ SS Shells are actually a lot easier to maintain. They must be cleaned everyday though. Yes, more electricity but not as much as you might think.

I didn't think we were discussing increasing passenger capacity. Why bring that in suddenly.
IIRC most Suburban lines are now down to the 150 second to 240 second interval at peak hour. You are not going get more than a marginal increase with new signal systems. The railways have gone from 8 coach trains to now 15 coach trains and they are still crammed. The only solution is new lines and hence all the Metro proposals. Doors will close on Metro coaches. Don't even think of increasing passengers on existing lines without proper station, platform, road, bus increases as well. No matter how you cut it Mumbai locals are pretty much maxed out.

Also Mumbai Pune in A/C Bus is right now running in the Rs 200 - Rs 250 range. Chennai Hyderabad is about Rs 700 in A/C. Ahmedabad Mumbai is in the Rs 300-400 range.
Not sure about times.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 29 Jul 2011 21:06

In Mumbai, the train doors are closed by passengers during rains. These doors are manually operated so one can close the door anytime they choose. The rush hour passenger load on these trains usually flows out the door and some people who may be pressed for time have no option but to travel hanging on the ledge. I beleive these bogies are rated for 172 passengers and typical rush hour has 2-3 times that number travelling. It has gotten better because of more frequent trains and by adding more bogies (from 9 to 12). There is also an effort going on to add 2 more rail lines along the central railway line in Mumbai(currently there are 4 lines and the plan is to increase it to 6).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 01:25

biju ji, not just in mumbai, that's true everywhere.

theo saar, I beg to differ. the current EMU's are very robust systems that need very little maintenance. they have been with IR for a long time and the design has stabilized to very reliable levels. they take a lot of punishment yet rare is the occasion when an EMU rake breaks down. even by a simplistic analysis AC rakes have 3 times as many complex systems with moving parts, AC system in each rake in addition to the 6 (or 8 ?) automated doors plus the prime mover which both have. let's assume the one on AC rakes would be less maintenance intensive. even then it would take many more manhours to check and maintain just additional AC systems and automated doors. I don't see how it would be cheaper than the existing system.

I didn't think we were discussing increasing passenger capacity. Why bring that in suddenly.
IIRC most Suburban lines are now down to the 150 second to 240 second interval at peak hour. You are not going get more than a marginal increase with new signal systems. The railways have gone from 8 coach trains to now 15 coach trains and they are still crammed.

(in reply to bolded part) so that this kind of situation can be avoided.

the discussion was about safety and the only way to ensure safety is to run enough trains or provide other modes of transport so that people are not desperate enough to travel this way.

240 seconds is 4 minutes ! improved signaling system would bring it down to under 120 sec. (90sec is the lowest value achievable I believe.) that means double the number of trains in an hour, from 15 per hour to 30 per hour ! the improvement is far from marginal.

The only solution is new lines and hence all the Metro proposals. Doors will close on Metro coaches. Don't even think of increasing passengers on existing lines without proper station, platform, road, bus increases as well. No matter how you cut it Mumbai locals are pretty much maxed out.

if you think from your calculations that metro would be enough to absorb any future expansion of mass transport requirements then not improving the suburban rail network is justified. I am not too sure. kolkata is serviced by 3 rail networks, the suburban network, circular rail and metro. all 3 are crammed to capacity at peak hours.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Jul 2011 02:16

Once you bring in capacity questions all the safety ones go out the window. The only reason we put up with the murderous locals is because of the high capacity and cheapness.

For the population and the utter dependence on Metro Mumbai should have had at least 5 times more suburban/metro capacity. It is sad that this investment was not made. Improving signals is not likely to solve this problem. So far we have increased length and reduced time to 150 seconds at peak hour and have only achieved further congestion. 90 sec is already in place in certain places. Victoria Terminus for one. Honestly I was on the locals 4 years ago and I remember a blood curddling incident on the platform where the surging crowd pushed two people onto the tracks. Fortunately the train was stopped so they clambered back up but it could have ended so differently. I don't know what people in Mumbai think but the lines are well beyond dense crush load. They are approaching and exceeding super dense crush load. 5000 pax in a train meant for 1500. Even if you double the train through put and I doubt you can get more than 30% more, it will still be super dense crush in a matter of months.

Need 8-10 new metro lines. Write of the entire local rakes. They are quite simply garbage. No livable human city should put up with that. It's not even cheap once you consider the lives and electricity wasted. We just did not have the technology for better till now.

New rakes are not just about expensive components. The SS rakes of Delhi metro boast the following.

- Much lighter weight. Hence less power consumption, faster acceleration, etc.
- Far far safer. Fatal accidents can be counted on your fingers.
- Modern motor technology with proper regenerative braking. These alone can save 20% energy just by themselves. Enough for A/C in every single coach. Honestly we have been torturing ourselves for a long time rather pointlessly.
- And Mumbai locals break down all the time. Rarely does a day go by that one does not break down somewhere. DMRC breakdowns are so rare they make headlines.

Here is a report on one of many many such breakdowns.
http://sachinuppal.blogspot.com/2009/02 ... n+Uppal%29

- Keep in mind a 'faster' signal system will mean in-cab signals with Automatic Train Protection systems. You will need brand new rakes for this.
- Need 8-10 new metro lines in Mumbai. Only solution.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jul 2011 07:40

deleted

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jul 2011 07:48

putting 70-80 pax in coaches that can carry 150-200 is just that

Are you saying that wagons of local trains are meant to accommodate 150-200 people? I cannot imagine how ~150 people can fit in those compartments. And I know about those trains. (As far as my experience is concerned, I traveled from Howrah to Kharagpur in local trains for 5 years.)

My suggestion that every compartment should carry 70-80 people was aimed at sleeper class compartments. They have 72 seats. It was not an "artificial and arbitrary" limit.

I would remind people that there are constraints on how many goats and cows can be transported in a wagon of given dimensions.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 30 Jul 2011 11:20

Folks! Having used the Mumbai suburban network for over 20 years in the 80's and early 2000's....I must say its the worst managed public service in the entire world in terms of passenger comfort or safety. The only thing in it's favor is that compared to other modes of transport available it is the most reliable in terms of time taken to travel from point A to point B.

I have personally witnessed atleast one fatality every week (on an average) either due to illegal track crossings, electrocution or falling off a overcrowded train. One can blame the railway authorities or the govt. but honestly, the mumbaikars should share the blame as much for the apathetic attitude on the way they conduct their day to day lives. You need to witness the mad rush to board a train to grab seat even before the train has completely halted. Screw! the passengers who need to alight at their destinations before boarding, as is the norm elsewhere! Besides that, there is ample goondagiri abound, if someone has managed to get a seat from a starting point of the train and doesn't vacate it atleast 5-6 stops before he has to get off. In many cases you won't be allowed to get off and forced to carry on until the terminating destination of the train.

Thankfully, ladies have their own compartments and during peak hours whole trains dedicated to them (aptly named as "Maal Gaadis"

in Mumbaiya speak). Otherwise you can imagine the plight of women in those crowded compartments.

There have been some improvements in the late 90's by way of adding 12 coach rakes and better signalling which made it possible to increase the frequency to 180 secs between trains during peak hours. But, even then it just wasn't enough to cope up with the passenger loads. You can be rest assured that if for some reason the suburban service gets disrupted (quite often due to heavy rains in the monsoon) the whole city comes to a standstill. Starting in the 90's there was a conscious effort to spread the commercial areas all around the city instead of being concentrated in south bombay and that has also helped just a wee bit. Although the population has increased so much since that now instead of trains being crowded only during peak times, they are pretty much packed for the entire duration of service i.e. 5:00am - 1:00am daily

The density of people traveling during peak hours (also termed as "Super Crush Load") is 14-16 passengers per sq.mt

Just close your eyes and imagine what it would feel like

to be among this!

From the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Suburban_Railway

Overcrowding

Due to its extensive reach across the Mumbai Metropolitan Region, and its intensive use by the local urban population, the Mumbai Suburban Railway suffers from some of the most severe overcrowding in the world.[4] Over 4,500 passengers are packed into a 9-car rake during peak hours, as against the rated carrying capacity of 1,700.[4] This has resulted in what is known as Super-Dense Crush Load of 14 to 16 standing passengers per square meter of floor space. Trains on the suburban line are on average more than 4 minutes apart, contributing to the problem of overcrowding. The impending introduction of new higher speed rakes may help address the issue.

The new trains look just as ugly and retarded as the old one's.....much like the new trams in Kolkata

Rakes
The interior of new rakes

A bulk of the current fleet of both the Western and Central railways features old rakes which are capable of a maximum speed of 85 km/h in regular service. Most of these rakes are built by Jessop (Kolkata) and ICF (Perambur). The recently introduced AC/DC rakes (more modern motors in the existing carriage designs) are capable of 100 km/h under low traffic conditions. The actual average speed of the rakes on the slow lines is about 35 km/h, while rakes on fast lines average about 45–50 km/h on a typical run.

On November 12, 2007, 1st rake of 129 new 12-coach rakes with upgraded facilities was inducted into the fleet of the Western Railways under the MUTP project. The coaches are built of stainless steel, and have non-cushioned seats, emergency fluorescent lights, bigger windows with polycarbonate lookout glass, better suspension systems and a novel roof mounted forced ventilation system, station indicators in all coaches, GPS based Public information system in all coaches. These rakes have been procured under the project at a total cost of Rs 1,900 crore (Rs 19 billion) (USD 431.0 million).
Brand new rakes will replace the ageing fleet of suburban trains

As on Sep 2010, 102 out of 129 new trains have been delivered to Mumbai Suburban Railway.[2] Total cost of this project is Indian Rupee symbol.svg5,300 crore (US$1.18 billion) [3]

Here you will find some of the new features in the new rakes (same old wine new bottle)

http://www.mrvc.indianrailways.gov.in/v ... 0&id=0,298

And about the Mumbai Metro project, the least said the better. While Delhi wallas are cruising along in A/C comfort in plush German/Canadian rakes, us Mumbaikars will have to wait atleast until end 2013 before we see the first metro in the VAG (Versova-Andheri-Ghatkpar) corridor and that too in rolling stock provided by the one and only, face saving, tarrel than mountain friends thanks to Ambani guru. That is another disaster waiting to happen.

Anyway sorry for the long rant.....as Vina sir says...what goes my father's?

Peace!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 13:02

abhishek_sharma wrote:
putting 70-80 pax in coaches that can carry 150-200 is just that
Are you saying that wagons of local trains are meant to accommodate 150-200 people? I cannot imagine how ~150 people can fit in those compartments. And I know about those trains. (As far as my experience is concerned, I traveled from Howrah to Kharagpur in local trains for 5 years.)

My suggestion that every compartment should carry 70-80 people was aimed at sleeper class compartments. They have 72 seats. It was not an "artificial and arbitrary" limit.

I would remind people that there are constraints on how many goats and cows can be transported in a wagon of given dimensions.

oh come on, we were discussing suburban railway not sleeper coaches. otherwise I don't know how your arguments about people falling off etc fit in. and yes, the local trains would carry that many. it's not unique to India, any country with high population density will face those problems. if people want to travel on time and are okay with the crowd who are you to stop them ?
this is from japan, guess how many passengers are travelling in that rake ?

as for sleeper class, I agree they are very often overcrowded. instead of 72, or 81 in the asinine coaches with side middle berths, there are usually around 100 pax in each coach. however, the thing is many of these people without reserved seats did pay for them but the demand being what it is, they remain stranded with wait listed or RAC tickets. people without tickets or with unreserved tickets are routinely thrown out by the TTE's. nowadays all tickets are sold out a month before the journey, 3AC and above even earlier.
IR can easily run another train on the same route with the wait listed passengers.

p.s. I don't understand how you can travel on the locals for 5 years and yet miss the doors.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jul 2011 13:20

Okay. My point is that if the capacity of the wagon is 'c', then we should not allow more than c+10 people. We should certainly not allow c*1.5 people to enter those compartments. We should have more trains if needed.

That video is very disturbing. I don't think we should treat our citizens in that way.

I really don't remember seeing any door in local trains.

kya karen?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jul 2011 13:20

khair...jo bhi ho...let us move on.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2011 13:49

somehow the whole mumbai infra thing brings me a pic of shia faithfuls whipping themselves with ropes, small chains, small knives attached to chains etc....a lot of voluntary pain inflicted upon the self in some form of penance.

when people ask why mumbai is whipping itself like this, all sorts of reasons and rationalizations are made, kind of like how inaction of GOI vs some aspects of paki behaviour is spun as a chankian strategy of doing nothing but letting gravity do its work

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 14:01

Theo saar, you misunderstood my post. I am not saying improving the local trains is a panacea, that it is not. but given how our cities are exploding we need to wring out every bit of capability from every available mode of transport, whether local trains, metro, monorail or public buses.
we can't afford to ignore any of these by saying mode x (insert favourite mode here) will be enough. a combination of all these would hopefully reduce the overt dependence on any particular one and have enough reserve capacity to cater for emergencies, like when rains stop train services.

They are approaching and exceeding super dense crush load. 5000 pax in a train meant for 1500. Even if you double the train through put and I doubt you can get more than 30% more, it will still be super dense crush in a matter of months.

agreed, but the same will be true of metro too isn't it ? the reason after all is same, not enough capacity compared to number of passengers.

comparison with DMRC rakes is unjustified, DMRC runs on dedicated tracks with a completely different objective. metros are primarily for intra city transport, while suburban rail is for bringing people from outside the city into it.
if it was this easy people would have simply replaced the suburban rail system with metro rakes. the rail system is also used by the long range IR trains, I do not think it is possible to change the whole IR train system to conform with DMRC at one stroke.
local train rakes should definitely be improved but I don't think it is feasible to match bombardier rakes anytime soon.

And Mumbai locals break down all the time. Rarely does a day go by that one does not break down somewhere. DMRC breakdowns are so rare they make headlines.

the problem is usually in the tracks or the overhead high-tension wires, not with the rakes themselves. and then there's glitches in the signaling system. in the video you have posted the stoppage was due to a protest, not a breakdown.

rake breakdown is very rare. if one happens passengers would be transferred to a relief train and the faulty one would be shunted away or repaired on the spot with dedicated engineer's cabs brought in. if these things don't happen it's a problem with tracks,overhead wire or signal. in all my years of using kolkata locals in student life it has happened once.

- Keep in mind a 'faster' signal system will mean in-cab signals with Automatic Train Protection systems. You will need brand new rakes for this.

most likely can be retro-fitted to the new rakes with AC driver's cabin which are being used in mumbai. same as the ones in anishns' post.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jul 2011 21:08

Singha wrote:a cop with a 6' long danda could go around thrashing anyone who holds these doors open.

a better civilized strategy would be automate the whole stuff. the train will not move unless the door is closed. /PERIOD. Let the civilized citizens decide if they want to go or not.

that way we actually training two things - one the system itself, second people's behavior.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jul 2011 21:21

http://www.indianexpress.com/story-print/822902/

The bullet trains will cover 300 km in an hour and their fare could be equivalent to that of airlines. Six corridors have been selected for the project — Delhi-Chandigarh-Amritsar (450 km), Pune-Mumbai-Ahmedabad (650 km), Hyderabad-Dornakal-Vijayawada-Chennai (664 km), Chennai-Bangalore-Coimbatore-Ernakulam (649 km), Howrah-Haldia (135 km), Delhi-Agra-Lucknow-Varanasi-Patna (991 km). Twelve state governments and one UT have given their approval to share the cost of consultancy on a 50:50 basis. On Tuesday, Railways officials discussed a feasibility plan regarding the Howrah-Haldia high speed rail corridor.

The pre-feasibility report of two such high speed corridor projects was submitted to the ministry recently. According to the proposal, one can reach Patna from Delhi in a little more than three hours and from Delhi to Amritsar in 1.5 hours.

The formation of the National High Speed Railway Authority (NHSRA) was approved after it was announced during the Rail Budget earlier this year by the then minister Mamata Banerjee. The NHSRA will be an autonomous body with its administrative control under the Ministry of Railways, officials said. The formation of NHSRA seems to have been fast-tracked after Dinesh Trivedi took over as the Railways Minister. This is one of the ‘pet projects’ of his mentor and West Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee. A memorandum was finalised by the Railway Board on this and a note sent to Cabinet for approval a few days back.

The Howrah-Haldia high speed rail corridor project is said to be close to Banerjee. The proposed high speed train will cut the travel time to half-an-hour. Last week, UK-based Mott Macdonald, which was roped in to do the pre-feasibility study had submitted its interim report .

“Once the board is constituted, the high speed corridor will be fast-tracked and things will move in the right direction. These trains will drastically cut down travel time and can compete with airline sector,” said a senior official.

not sure if this would be economically feasible with prices at same level as air travel. 300kmph is quite a high speed and would require massive investment and maintenance.
at the very least I hope they have a provision for running hi-speed freight trains on these routes to recover costs.

rae bareili coach factory for raj.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jul 2011 21:25

maglevs with safety latch design could be one option if we are thinking about bullets.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 30 Jul 2011 23:43

That clip from Japan is very funny.

Perhaps GoI should think of setting bulk standards for people who can take public transit. As in anyone over 32-34 waist is not allowed, and should walk instead (will be better for them anyway

). Precedent for such Paki solution exists, and can be implemented since railways are government owned.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jul 2011 04:50

work from home and take the mountain to mohammad solutions can work to bring down some peak hour office traffic.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 31 Jul 2011 04:54

some thoughts,

1) double Decker coaches with FRP superstructure and iron undercarriages, keeps the center of gravity low, the non-conducting FRP allows for lesser distance between overhead line and the roof of the bogie, add roof top solar panels for fans, A/C hence enabling closed doors, train doesn't move if doors not closed

2) fix the signaling system to enable high frequency

3) say station platform length is good for accommodating 16 bogies,
each Train will have 16 (section A) + 16 (section

= 32 bogies lugged by a very high capacity electric loco for quick acceleration and deceleration; > 6000hp locos from Japan for Mumbai - Delhi freight corridor can help

Train 1 section A stops at every alternate station (Set 1) from the origin station, section B stops at the rest of them (Set 2)

3 mins later Train 2 arrives, section A stops at stations in Set 2, section B at stations in Set 1; this ensures that for every 6 mins, all stations on that route are covered

each bogie will have a electronic ticker where those "Trivandrum -> Lucknow" type boards go on the sides powered by solar panels and wheel driven generators recharging during rapid deceleration when stopping at stations perhaps allowing for laptop power outlets

even the station can have electronic tickers announcing which sectional train is expected to arrive next

4) the doors remain closed on the sections outside the platform and the bogies of a section are always contiguous

5) kick the RPF butt to ensure that for each bogie entrance people form 2 queues (one for each section)

6) number of train sections and station sets can be optimized based on traffic timings, if some of these measures are adopted across IR, forget Reservation Against Cancellation and handle holiday surges smoothly

7) longer trains help (2) as well

the city should then think of staggering office timings

then finally figure the finances should be possible if they are trying to rationalize HSR costs

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2011 08:44

iirc this metal barricade thing is there in many countries, incl singapore metro.

not that its really needed in singapore - the population is dense but the people look work-focussed and disciplined.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2011 09:40

^true. my memory is 2 yrs old.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 31 Jul 2011 19:56

nukavarapu bhaijan, EMUs or ultra locos, increase capacity and just adopt a way that works, status quo as on Telangana is unacceptable

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Jul 2011 22:07

not sure forming proper queues should be a priority, with the crowd situation what it is now all those things are meaningless. people have to squeeze in and out of trains in the space of a few seconds, the orderly separation needed for queues to work is not available. if crowds lessen the situation would improve itself. I don't know if people have noticed but these days I see people forming queues on their own without any intervention by authorities if the situation demands it, this type of crowd behaviour was unthinkable 10 years back.

nukavarapu, very thought provoking series of posts. I had one objection to double decker trains and that was the low number of exits in rush hour. but your 2 storey platform idea shows a way around it. I think it is a brilliant idea.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 31 Jul 2011 22:33

For super high density of India, we should have super high density transportation system with multiple systems sharing infrastructure to save space. Long time back I read about Germany's hanging railway. We can have two lines of hanging monorail on either side of the elevated structure on which Delhi's metro run. Both the systems can share the platform/ticketing infrastructure and with minial modifications the passenger capacity could be doubled.

Cheers....

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Jul 2011 22:38

I am curious with people advocating Monorail type systems. What is the advantage of a Monorail versus an elevated track (like much of Delhi Metro is)?

Is it the cost per km.?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Jul 2011 22:41

hanging monorails have too little capacity to be of use in India. not all of DMRC or any other metro is elevated. what would you do when the track goes underground ?
also, can the structure handle both at the same time, I don't think it can. if so it will hold up one service for another, compounding the problem.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 31 Jul 2011 22:54

If you are starting afresh, this can be implemented. The whole track can be made elevated and the elevated structure can be designed for the required loads. Agreed that the carrying capacity of monorails is lesser but it will add on to the overall capacity of the system. Plus I don't see any substantial additional infra required by the hanging system.

Cheers....

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 31 Jul 2011 23:20

Raja Bose wrote:I am curious with people advocating Monorail type systems. What is the advantage of a Monorail versus an elevated track (like much of Delhi Metro is)? Is it the cost per km.?

Cost + very little space needed to build the tracks. Generally monorail systems work as feeder systems into the main line where the main line cannot go because of lack of space. Essentially monorail is sort of single concrete track over the pillars.

Cheers....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Aug 2011 00:18

Curvature on existing tracks might put strong limits on two-tier concept with slowing down required around such bends.

There is the other problem of falling into the tracks from the upper platform, unless barriers are built. It has to be modern and sleek stations with access control between platform and bogies.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 Aug 2011 00:43

Monorail is not he solution it appears.

First cost. Metro costs about Rs 200 Crore per km. Monorail (incomplete) is costing about Rs 170 crore per km so far. The capacity top end for Monorail is 1/4 that for Metro. If you over load, the monorail will stop and people will have to get off. The more twisty the line the slower monorail runs. It not uncommon for speeds of 15 kmph to be posted at curves as monorail can't be banked. A combined Metro cum Mono system would bee even more expensive. There is not much cost saving as even with an under slung system the viaduct will have to beefed up, the columns increased in height and mush increased in size. Stations will be way way up in the air, etc.

The present Suburban got to its present status by a desire to cram more and more traffic through it. Look at the numbers. A system that handled about 10 Lakhs in 1960 now carries about 70 Lakhs now. Every day. How can anyone argue for putting even more passengers through that super dense crush load.

Lets keep in mind this entire conversation started when we asked how do you close the doors in Suburban trains. The only reasonable way to do that is to go to A/C coaches and reduce the passenger loads on the locals. The way to do that is to built new Metro lines. This not avoidable. Honestly when one considers the staggering costs of changing any aspect of the Suburban lines a new metro line at Rs 200 crore per km sounds very reasonable. The VAG Metro One line with an lead time of 180 secs can carry 60,000 persons per hour both directions. In a Twenty hour day (Mumbai) that is about 1.2 Million. This is with just 4 cars. Imagine what it could do with 8 cars. Just that one line is a 20% capacity increase.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Aug 2011 00:52

Access control will force the A/C coaches for all forms of transport. There is no escaping that with the usual arguments so far presented for maintaining the status quo for suburban lines.

We need to travel more comfortably and not at the same level as freight. Why cannot the basket carriers to local subzi mandis have a freight onlee cars attached. Why the need to mix different needs into the same car.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 01 Aug 2011 02:01

Bade wrote:Why cannot the basket carriers to local subzi mandis have a freight onlee cars attached. Why the need to mix different needs into the same car.

cost

saip · Post by **saip** » 01 Aug 2011 06:18

Is there another railway accident (CNN scrawl) today?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2011 09:12

the guwahati-bangalore exp derailed near Malda yday. couple of coaches landed into a pond, fate of occupants unknown. some coaches on adjacent track were hit minutes later by passenger train coming from opposite direction.

a relative of mine is supposed was supposed to go on this same rake on its return journey 4th august night. I am hoping they can arrange a replacement train from SBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14361015

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2011 09:14

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ck/444258/

Rail safety is badly off track
Indian Railways has been slow to implement the technology to make journeys safer
Suryanarayanan Balasubramanian, V Sridhar & C S Raman / July 30, 2011, 0:47 IST

exceprts:

The number of people killed on the tracks and through other railroad accidents has steadily increased over the years and accounts for about eight per cent of accidental deaths. In 2010 alone, of the 50 major railroad accidents worldwide 14 were in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2011 09:17

the tech to keep track of all trains from central places and flash a emergency halt message to trailing trains and opposite side trains does not look like rocket science to me. per the article above numerous railways are adopting it. the military will certainly have similar or better things to keep track of strategic assets.

as usual my rant would be do not use the railways as a band-aid employment generation vehicle only (to paper over economic failure in WB/Bihar/UP) but treat it as a strategic asset that needs capex and opex to get anywhere near a decent standard.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Aug 2011 09:46

scares me to think of a scenario when some mishap happens on a trunk line during war