The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

[Sasi_ryu]

Now, seats are sold to the highest bidder by most of the parties. So most of them on the list are either criminals or corrupt. What's left for the voter is to choose the least chor amoung them. This will change when the option of Na pasandi is on the list. And it's a legitimate right of the voter. If he/she don't like anyone on the list then he will choose that option. So inorder to win, the parties will have to field good candidates. The better the candidate the better the chance of winning. It will reach that state. So this is not only a right of a voter but a good thing to happen.

You still did not explain me so that I can lose my dhimminess on this topic

I give an example and help me understand:


Mumbai North West constituency - Substantial Muslim and Dalits along with IT Vty (Anna's buddies) crowd.

Candidates - Dawood Ibrahim (INC), Uddav Thakkarey (Shiv Sena)

total votes = 100
Muslims = 30 - 80% voted - 24 votes and all voted to congress. None of them used "I hate all candidate yaar vote"
Dalits = 30 - 60% voted - 18 voted - 12 voted to congress and 6 voted to Shiv Sena
ITVty (u know yaar, I swear Anna is great crowd) = 40 - 90% voted -36 votes - These generally does not come out and vote but these guys are lot enthusiastic with "I hate all" stuff. However there are about 10 dhimmi Muppallas who think Uddav Thakkarey is better than Dawood and voted Shiv Sena. Dawood is a known criminal and the money he used is fake money printed by ISI but CEC Chawla does not find any fault even after RTI activists found incrimination evidence. Uddav Thakkery to compete with Raj Thakkarey made not allowing North and South Indians from Mumbai's government jobs as a priority though Raj Thakkarey actually wants to wipe them out. Looking at the poor choice of candidates, 26 voted to "I hate all yaar".

Final tally -
INC = 24+12 = 36
Shiv Sena = 10 +6 = 16
I hate everyone = 26

Yaaaaahooooo - The greatness of youngistan led to Dawood Ibrahim's win. Dhimmi Muppallas still think that Uddav may be a better choice in the circumstances but "I hate everyone" looked so cool to some. Had they voted to Uddav he may have got 42 and defeated Dawood.

I am still the Dhimmi and lost . I hope someone helps me in understanding this "Reject all" votes.

Actually if I am congressman, I will meet 2G, MMS and NAC folks to immediately accept Anna's request of "right to reject" votes. I will conduct a dharna so that my God of Gods Shri Rahul Gandhi can easily become PM.

This is not happening in my life time,

The "Reject all" candidates will be a good tool in hand of common citizens.

Look when a X party stages a MEMBER who is not from that constituency or have criminal background or just a hate speaker like DVS in cong
and similar happens with the opposite Y party where the member is bogus what normally happens at current time is we just vote to the lesser evil and come out and say thank god i voted to (Y) so will have to pay only Rs 600 as corruption to get my daily job done instead of Rs 1000 earlier under (X).

Now here is where "Reject all" comes in to play if i vote "Reject all" the PARTY which is staging their MEMBER will think twice before they stage any corrupt, bogus MEMBER next time as they know people have the power to really "vote and choose whom they want" or "Vote and Say i wont vote to any one" it's to my right why should i choose lesser evil when i think i dont need evil at all ?

[Muppalla]

Now here is where "Reject all" comes in to play if i vote "Reject all" the PARTY which is staging their MEMBER will think twice before they stage any corrupt, bogus MEMBER next time as they know people have the power to really "vote and choose whom they want" or "Vote and Say i wont vote to any one" it's to my right why should i choose lesser evil when i think i dont need evil at all ?

Again another hot air stuff.

What is the end result? You belive that the offending party will think (okay okay you belive they will think twice not once) The party will anyway say two hoots. Beyond that what is the difference between this "reject all" Vs sitting at home and eating popcorn? The end result is the evil ones win instead of lesser evil wins.

Instead if we have:
(1) a constitutionally mandated primaries for all recognized parties and registered parties. A process where the people themselves will select the candidates of the parties.
(2) A mandatory 50% of votes polled requred to win the election otherwise a runoff election between top two candidates.
(3) Agument (1) and (2) by means of some incentive/disincentive for voting and not sitting at home. For any job/loan application, check "I voted" certificate. Make it mandatory for all the private sector and give an incentive in tax breaks for all business to encorage voting.

[Virupaksha]

How about I also have the power to stand in election myself, as Rahul Mehta had done?

"Reject all" is a passive phenonmenon. It is clearly an ideology of vacuum. It doesnt say what ideology one stands for. As somebody said, if you dont stand for something, you will fall for anything.

Reject all is simply another addition to the category of candidates and will do nothing to get better candidates. Infact it will lead to winning of most corrupt as the only ones who will have an inclination to choose "reject all" is the absolutely non-corrupt. If one is even a little bit corrupt and an oppurtunist, he will find someone in the field with whom he can comprimise with. Thus instead of actually decreasing corruption, reject-all will actually lead to an increase in the scale of corruption.

[a_bharat]

I think it is more than that; if "reject all" has more votes, then there has to be a re-poll.

If all the earlier candidates are barred in the re-poll, it may help in getting better candidates from the parties.

is there a formal draft on this anywhere ?

I am not sure if they have a draft yet; the first part (about re-poll) is what I heard on TV. The second part (barring the earlier candidates) is my own wish.

I think the following are more important than the right to reject or recall:

• - The winning candidate must get 50% or more of the polled votes; runoff polls must be conducted when necessary.
  - Other than TV debates, there should be no other form of campaigning. All leading candidates (say, those who have secured atleast 2000 signatures from their constituency) should get free (as in rupees) and fair opportuinity to put forward their views. Other candidates may purchase an equivalent amount of TV time.

[Dasari]

Most importantly the 'Reject All' option will make the guy who is trying to buy the votes think twice. It could be complete waste of money if the 'reject all' votes happened to be higher. It will also increase the voting % as many people who are refrained from voting for lack of better candidates will have incentive to go to the polls. Again any one of these, including Jan lok bill , is not a magic bullet but one of many defensive mechanisms to clean up this country. It took 60 years to start the process. Hopefully, we will reach there in our life times.

[Virupaksha]

I am not sure if they have a draft yet; the first part (about re-poll) is what I heard on TV. The second part (barring the earlier candidates) is my own wish.

I think the following are more important than the right to reject or recall:

• - The winning candidate must get 50% or more of the polled votes; runoff polls must be conducted when necessary.
  - Other than TV debates, there should be no other form of campaigning. All leading candidates (say, those who have secured atleast 2000 signatures from their constituency) should get free (as in rupees) and fair opportuinity to put forward their views. Other candidates may purchase an equivalent amount of TV time.

Have you ever been to a village sir? Do you know how many villages in India still dont have electricity and how many havent seen a tv or own a radio?

[niran]

is there a formal draft on this anywhere ?

not in India, in Saiamistan all ballots have one option
"I Prefer not to vote this time"
the catch is if 20% or more of the eligible voter in a given constituency prefer not to vote
then reelection has to be held with new sets of contestants, all in the original set will have to sit out for 4 years before contesting any election. if this is for 3 times then any member
wishing to contest will have to present themselves in public forum (gram sabha in India)and if they get a yes they can file for application with election commission.

[Virupaksha]

Most importantly the 'Reject All' option will make the guy who is trying to buy the votes think twice. It could be complete waste of money if the 'reject all' votes happened to be higher. It will also increase the voting % as many people who are refrained from voting for lack of better candidates will have incentive to go to the polls. Again any one of these, including Jan lok bill , is not a magic bullet but one of many defensive mechanisms to clean up this country. It took 60 years to start the process. Hopefully, we will reach there in our life times.

Even now if somebody else wins the vote, it is a waste of money and actually worse because somebody else won.

Reject all will mean he actually gets a second chance and now knows where his weak points were to plug with money.

Also please remember we have a parliamentary form of govt, i.e. the executive is from the parliament. So imagine the problems running a govt will face because of the delay in the result. A completely new set of candidates means one is tilting the already tilted battlefield completely towards established parties. It will require giving some time for the candidates to campaign and stuff. So instead of the govt being in a limbo for 3 months, you have just increased it to minimum 5 months. Now if one candidate from the first election files a court case and wins it after the second election, then what??

[Muppalla]

Muppala garu,

Votes required to win will be even lesser than today if you consider the large number of candidates (minimum 5-6 candidates in a constituency).

On the other hand the "right to recall" could be of better use, given politician's reluctance to face elections frequently. But on the other hand it could increase the need to earn more thru corruption.

Right to recall could also be a disaster in India. However, if we implement runoff elections, right to recall can be started at local election levels as a test before extending it to assembly and LS. With a lot of one sided money, you can trigger these stuff to remove the incumbant. What if candidate from Kakinada thinks Ambanis are looting the gas reserves in Godavari on-shore and votes against changing Cairns hold on the share from 26% to 51% proposed by the Milind Deora who is cahoots with Mukesh? In the process Mukesh via some "Kakinada vikaas protsaahan" spends 1116 crores to recall Kakinada LS candidate.

[Bhaskar]

Not a suggestion, but lets call it curiosity : What if, like in other countries such as Australia, we make it mandatory for people to vote in the elections (with conditions if one is ill or unable to through personal reasons)... The middle class, the ones which do not vote would have to vote. The Indian Middle class numbers at 400,000 and I believe only 40% currently go out to vote.

If they do go out to vote when mandatory, the numbers for dalits and muslims will no longer be the deciding factor as these are two vote banks which go out to vote in large numbers .
Now I know that it will be a logistics nightmare some 1.2 billion people going out to vote, but...
more of the voters now voting will be litterate Indians who are mature enough to vote looking beyond their personal caste and creed. It will make the MP's more responsible as the people they once fooled would be much harder to fool now (except in rural villages).
Also, the problem with parties such as BJP is that the middle class supports them but they just do not go out to vote. It is a party which reflects the voice of many but voted by few.

Anna wants an option in the voting system where people can vote "none of the above". That accomplishes nothing, even though more people might go out to vote but that wouldnt affect the political landscape but would also encourage citizens to be indifferent with the candidates in their constituency.
What do you think? I believe making it mandatory for citizens will be a better idea than given the citizens the options of voting without picking a candidate.

[abhishek_sharma]

Jan Lokpal alone cannot root out graft, says Mahesh Bhatt

[Sasi_ryu]

Now here is where "Reject all" comes in to play if i vote "Reject all" the PARTY which is staging their MEMBER will think twice before they stage any corrupt, bogus MEMBER next time as they know people have the power to really "vote and choose whom they want" or "Vote and Say i wont vote to any one" it's to my right why should i choose lesser evil when i think i dont need evil at all ?

Again another hot air stuff.

What is the end result? You belive that the offending party will think (okay okay you belive they will think twice not once) The party will anyway say two hoots. Beyond that what is the difference between this "reject all" Vs sitting at home and eating popcorn? The end result is the evil ones win instead of lesser evil wins.

Instead if we have:
(1) a constitutionally mandated primaries for all recognized parties and registered parties. A process where the people themselves will select the candidates of the parties.
(2) A mandatory 50% of votes polled requred to win the election otherwise a runoff election between top two candidates.
(3) Agument (1) and (2) by means of some incentive/disincentive for voting and not sitting at home. For any job/loan application, check "I voted" certificate. Make it mandatory for all the private sector and give an incentive in tax breaks for all business to encorage voting.

Sitting at home ? I have not done once from my 18th year of life when i started voting so i dont know.

How does the evil one win if the PARTY in first place dont stage them ?

And your fist counter point see bold letter

1) How is the people themselves selecting the candidates of the parties will be dame wiser than those who select "Reject All" ?

2) Will the whole population vote for the top 2 or just those who voted other than them should choose 1 of top 2 ? If so is it not pushing voters to choose one who they actually did not wish to, If all should vote again only for top 2 then again is it not pushing the voters to choose those who they did not want to earlier ?

3) First it may look like good/best/wonderful point but think deep instead of using puss strategy for voting it is best/wonderful to use pull strategy. We need to educate people about the importance of voting and make it that it's their duty.

Think a article in Guardian, NYT, GEO, DAWN,WSJ etc etc
Aug 29 2016
" Worlds largest democracy forces voters to voting by providing incentives "

[abhishek_sharma]

Seventy-year-old Ghashiram Deka, who has been fasting in solidarity with Anna Hazare, breaks his fast in Guwahati on Sunday. Photo: Ritu Raj Konwar

[Dhiman]

Karnatka did have a lokayukta (fresh example) and corruption happened.

The success of Anna's fast is not in the fact that he got government to agree to set up LokPal. His success lies in the fact that he managed to get a message across to criminals that run this country that "corruption will no longer be tolerated." If one actually enforces just the current laws, then corruption can be effectively tackled. I don't know what added benefit a LokPal would bring - another bureaucracy to offer employment to people? The problem is not with laws, but with actual enforcement of laws, unless there is a will to enforce laws, new laws and new Lokyukta bureaucracy is going to be ineffective just like the the prevention of corruption act 1947, 1988, and all state Lokyuktas have already proven to be ineffective.

State Lokyuktas are mainly seen as a post-retirement benefit rather than an organization. Given that the Karnataka Lokyukta actually bothered to submit a report indicting a "high official", I would say it is the most effective state Lokyukta around. However, it released this report only after mining scam was already well known. Otherwise, most of the Karnataka Lokyukta's report are toothless and gather dust as the state government simply ignores them.

[Pranav]

What is the end result? You belive that the offending party will think (okay okay you belive they will think twice not once) The party will anyway say two hoots. Beyond that what is the difference between this "reject all" Vs sitting at home and eating popcorn? The end result is the evil ones win instead of lesser evil wins.

Instead if we have:
(1) a constitutionally mandated primaries for all recognized parties and registered parties. A process where the people themselves will select the candidates of the parties.
(2) A mandatory 50% of votes polled requred to win the election otherwise a runoff election between top two candidates.
(3) Agument (1) and (2) by means of some incentive/disincentive for voting and not sitting at home. For any job/loan application, check "I voted" certificate. Make it mandatory for all the private sector and give an incentive in tax breaks for all business to encorage voting.

Good suggestions ... "Reject All" means that the votes of the "intellectual class" will be divided ... . Run-offs are an excellent idea. Also voting should be not just incentivized, but made compulsory.

I also support a suggestion made by somebody earlier to separate the legislature from the executive; lawmakers should not be able to benefit from the laws they are making. But for proper separation it may be necessary to have the elections on non-party basis.

Another suggestion by Kejriwal that is good is to bind the legislators to vote as per the dictates of their constituents, expressed via the Gram and Mohalla Sabhas. They should not be tied by whip issued by party High Command, nor should they be able to auction their votes in horse-trading.

[Sanku]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Kiran-pra ... 38995.aspx

Kiran praises BJP, calls it game-changer

Anna Hazare's key aide Kiran Bedi on Sunday credited the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) for being the game-changer when the talks were at a crucial stage. Heaping praise on the party, the former IPS officer said, "Nothing would have happened had the BJP not taken a stand. As a major
opposition party, it has played a vital role in swinging it. They have been the game-changers."

She said senior BJP leader LK Advani had called her and assured that a solution would be found by Saturday evening.

She said, "When I got a message that Advani and PM are meeting, I knew it would be done. That was the time of miracle. I am grateful to him."

[Sanku]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 773750.cms

Hazare's movement a fight of entire country: Advani

After Hazare ended his fast today, his associate Arvind Kejriwal visited Advani's house to thank him and his party for the support extended to the Gandhian's agitation.

Kiran Bedi, another member of Team Anna, also sent a message to Advani thanking him.

=========================

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 776065.cms

NEW DELHI: Opposition BJP pledged continued support to Anna Hazare's movement against corruption and promised to help ensure an effective Lokpal is installed by the government.

Senior BJP leader L K Advani on Sunday said his party would continue to support Hazare, revealing that the Gandian had thanked BJP for its contribution during the campaign. "Anna wrote a letter to thank my party for the contribution it made. The fight will continue," Advani told reporters here.

[Prem]

Here is RahuL Mehta ji;s thinking.

Dear All,

Every Anna-bhagat says I am defaiming Anna and company. Can you pls tell us which statement of mine is false? Which statement of mine is a lie? I speak truth, and if that truth looks like defamation, it is NOT my faut.
1. I say Anna became famous due to coverage he got from MNC-paid TV-channels. That is truth. eg On Apr-4, only 500-800 people attended the anshan at Jantar Mantar and MNC-paid TV-channels said that 5000 attended the meet. Likewise, MNC-paid TV-channels have given full cioverage to Anna's anshan. I have spoken no lies
2. Next, I say Janlokpal with NO Right to Recall corrupt clauses will help MNCs and Misssionarues because now they need to bribe only 11 Lokpals to control/threaten 1000s of IAS, IPS etc. This is truth3. Next I say, Anna and company did NOT add RTR-Lokpal clauses in their draft. If I am liar, can YOU show me RTR-Lokpal clauses in their draft?
4. And they have all along been saying that RTR after JLP is passed. Well JLP has no passed, but they have now pre-poned RTR movement. I support that. But are they silent on RTR-Lokpal? Why are they silent on RTR Supreme Court judges? Why are they all silent RTR-PM proposal?
5. I said that they want activists to focus on chillars like RTR-sarpanch, RTR-parshad (corporators), RTR-MLA and RTR-MP and they are asking activists NOT to focus on RTR Supreme Court judges. Am I wrong?
Where am I wrong? NO where? I speak 100% truth and you find defamation !! Well, I couldnt care less.

[Pranav]

Yes, the BJP finally sided with the people instead of with the political class, thereby redeeming itself after several months of waffling. But lets see how they behave in the coming months.

Another interesting thing - Congress governor in Gujarat unilaterally appointed a Lok Ayukta as soon as the BJP reached and understanding with Team Anna.

[vina]

Hmm. I was listening to that Kejriwal dude's speech on TV just before Anna Hazare broke his fast and he talked about how they were going to campaign for the right of recall and referendum in India.

Now recall and referendum are not in the basic features of the Indian constitution and that will need a big constitutional amendment to do it. That will take some incredible doing and will face massive resistance from the entrenched political class. After all, which politico after winning and election would like to be recalled and also referendum is messy.

When I heard the words recall and referendum, i though, oh my God, this is not the place I live in now, but the place I lived in earlier, Californication ! Team Anna wants to make India a giant Californication! What can I say. Before getting the politics of Californication in, first get the economy to that level.

[kmkraoind]

Mole hunt in Team Anna?

Although Team Anna's campaign against corruption has had a tremendous impact as it succeeded in creating a charged atmosphere by channelising the positive energy of people from all walks of life including youth by applying all kinds of management plans, it lacked one thing -- an in--house intelligence system.

"With time, everything fell in place. We had one key issue -- corruption. Later, we established media, marketing, event and other management plans. But for intelligence inputs, we were dependent on the common man, media, police and government machinery," said a member of Team Anna.


Sources in the team claimed they had information that a few people from the group might be government moles and would leak strategies formulated by them. But, as they had no mechanism to catch them, they were helpless.

"We were lucky. Where we failed, someone from outside Team Anna helped us. Even sources in government intelligence and police department helped us indirectly by sharing some information," another associate of Team Anna said.

According to sources, Team Anna had information of Swami Agnivesh's video since Saturday morning. "The information and the video were shared with us before leaking in media, which happened in the afternoon," said a source.

I want to sing loudly "Hum Honge Kamyab Ek Din."

[Sanku]

, thereby redeeming itself after several months of waffling. But lets see how they behave in the coming months..

Incorrect, BJPs stand was quite clear and continues unchanged. It has been up on their website since July

The only point was IAC was aware (and has said so explicitly) that they expected Congress to start acting funny as soon as BJP joined in so they consciously stayed away, till the end game.

Havent you heard of cavalry being sent in at the last moment?


BJP was the final charge.

As I said, why assume that there are only one set of chess players in the world. This is a classic, flank (BR), center (AH) and mop up strategy (BJP) -- I am to assume no coordination?

Heck some people assume more correlation in the Jewish conspiracy theories.

[Dhiman]

EC recommended "electoral reforms" to GoI in 2004 and I quote some of the recommendations

From http://eci.gov.in/eci_main/PROPOSED_ELE ... EFORMS.pdf

CRIMINALISATION OF POLITICS
The Commission is of the view that keeping a person, who is accused of serious criminal charges and where the Court is prima facie satisfied about his involvement in the crime and consequently framed charges, out of electoral arena would be a reasonable restriction in greater public interests. It is also suggested that persons found guilty by a Commission of Enquiry should also stand disqualified from contesting elections.

RESTRICTION ON THE NUMBER OF SEATS FROM WHICH ONE MAY CONTEST
The Commission is of the view that the law should be amended to provide that a person cannot contest from more than one constituency at a time.

EXIT POLLS AND OPINION POLLS
The Commission reiterates its view that there should be some restriction on publishing the results of Opinion Polls and Exit Polls.

PROHIBITION OF SURROGATE ADVERTISEMENTS IN PRINT MEDIA
The Commission is of the view that there should be clear provision to deal with cases of surrogate advertisements in print media.

NEGATIVE / NEUTRAL VOTING
The Commission recommends that the law should be amended to specifically provide for negative / neutral voting. For this purpose, Rules 22 and 49B of the Conduct of Election
Rules, 1961 may be suitably amended adding a proviso that in the ballot paper and the particulars on the ballot unit, in the column relating to names of candidates, after the
entry relating to the last candidate, there shall be a column None of the above, to enable a voter to reject all the candidates, if he chooses so. Such a proposal was earlier
made by the Commission in 2001 (vide letter dated 10.12.2001).

BAN ON TRANSFERS OF ELECTION OFFICERS ON THE EVE OF ELECTIONS

There should also be some sort of ban on candidates providing gifts and inducements to voters, i.e ending the practice of buying votes.

[Murugan]

Agniwesh has also ditched Ramdev and probably back-stabbed him in whole Ramlila episode, according to many Anna supporters around.

The character was doubtful when in the month of April he profusely thanked Kaangressi guys and Madam when govt promised to bring lokpal after Anna's anshan.

[sumishi]

...
I give an example and help me understand:
Mumbai North West constituency - Substantial Muslim and Dalits along with IT Vty (Anna's buddies) crowd.
Candidates - Dawood Ibrahim (INC), Uddav Thakkarey (Shiv Sena)

total votes = 100
Muslims = 30 - 80% voted - 24 votes and all voted to congress. None of them used "I hate all candidate yaar vote"
Dalits = 30 - 60% voted - 18 voted - 12 voted to congress and 6 voted to Shiv Sena
ITVty (u know yaar, I swear Anna is great crowd) = 40 - 90% voted -36 votes - These generally does not come out and vote but these guys are lot enthusiastic with "I hate all" stuff. However there are about 10 dhimmi Muppallas who think Uddav Thakkarey is better than Dawood and voted Shiv Sena. Dawood is a known criminal and the money he used is fake money printed by ISI but CEC Chawla does not find any fault even after RTI activists found incrimination evidence. Uddav Thakkery to compete with Raj Thakkarey made not allowing North and South Indians from Mumbai's government jobs as a priority though Raj Thakkarey actually wants to wipe them out. Looking at the poor choice of candidates, 26 voted to "I hate all yaar".

Final tally -
INC = 24+12 = 36
Shiv Sena = 10 +6 = 16
I hate everyone = 26

Yaaaaahooooo - The greatness of youngistan led to Dawood Ibrahim's win. Dhimmi Muppallas still think that Uddav may be a better choice in the circumstances but "I hate everyone" looked so cool to some. Had they voted to Uddav he may have got 42 and defeated Dawood.
...

An extension of my "hypothetical negative vote logic", and using Mupalla's example, suppose, instead of "I hate Everyone", there are as many extra negative choices as no. of candidates, like:
[1] INC (Dawood)
[2] Shiv Sena (Uddav)
[3] INC fields the worst candidate [negative vote]
[4] Shiv Sena fields the worst candidate[negative vote]

Now, each negative vote in [3] subtracts one vote from [1], and each negative vote in [4] subtracts one vote from [2]
So, assuming that out of the 26 "I hate everyone" crowd, 16 choose [3] and 10 choose [4], that leaves the following tally:
INC = 24+12 = 36 { -16} = 20
Shiv Sena = 10 +6 = 16 { -10} = 6
Negative votes = 26
A better situation, at least in this example.

[Pranav]

Incorrect, BJPs stand was quite clear and continues unchanged. It has been up on their website since July

The only point was IAC was aware (and has said so explicitly) that they expected Congress to start acting funny as soon as BJP joined in so they consciously stayed away, till the end game.

Havent you heard of cavalry being sent in at the last moment?


BJP was the final charge.

As I said, why assume that there are only one set of chess players in the world. This is a classic, flank (BR), center (AH) and mop up strategy (BJP) -- I am to assume no coordination?

August 16: BJP rejects Anna's demand on Jan Lokpal Bill - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 362546.ece

August 28: Ready to march forward under your leadership, Gadkari tells Hazare - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 406439.ece

Heck some people assume more correlation in the Jewish conspiracy theories.

People should overcome their programming and develop a rational mindset; at one point it was a "conspiracy theory" that the earth revolved around the sun.

[Samay]

Congress led pseudo secular have started taking cheap shots on Anna's movement,calling it right wing,anti minorities,blah blah just to divert public attention from the real issue.
It looks quite difficult to completely remove corruption from India ,but considering the massive scale of corruption going on everyday, it needed a halt,especially the money that's being sent outside.
One could see the pain these crooks and anti-national agents have that they have unleashed an army of anti-national,pseudo secular agents to derail the movement.
Implementing a good law,as per our requirements will be even more difficult . Anna and his team realize this ,thats why they ended his fast after confirmation of debate on this bill from govt.

I dont think that Sonia is in US only for a cancer therapy

[sumishi]

...People should overcome their programming and develop a rational mindset; at one point it was a "conspiracy theory" that the earth revolved around the sun.

[OT] The church even refused to look through Galileo's telescope, saying that it was the instrument of the devil who could create illusions

[Sanku]

August 16: BJP rejects Anna's demand on Jan Lokpal Bill - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 362546.ece

August 28: Ready to march forward under your leadership, Gadkari tells Hazare - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 406439.ece

Yes, BJPs stand is same, team Anna has incorporated BJPs changes.

So yes BJPs stand has remained consistent, team Anna changed at the last minute to involve BJP. And they made the last minute switch deliberately.

It kept them from the attack of "politically motivated" -- IAC has also said so in so many words.

People should overcome their programming and develop a rational mindset; at one point it was a "conspiracy theory" that the earth revolved around the sun.

Yes rationality would be welcome in some quarters.

[Pranav]

Yes, BJPs stand is same

I suppose Shatrughan Sinha and Yashwant Sinha don't have your inside info?

Khair, if some people want to change for the better, it is always welcome.

[Sanku]

Yes, BJPs stand is same

I suppose Shatrughan Sinha and Yashwant Sinha don't have your inside info?

My inside info is from inside, and also direct report from outside, and not from Hindu masquerading as inside info. They have both directly questioned the reports as mischievous propaganda.

I am well aware of games of unnamed sources

You want us to believe or disbelieve data points; depending on how they fit into the support of your grand "conspiracy model" with all being same controlled by dark actors.

Sorry, cant do that.

[disha]

August 16: BJP rejects Anna's demand on Jan Lokpal Bill - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 362546.ece

August 28: Ready to march forward under your leadership, Gadkari tells Hazare - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 406439.ece

Heck some people assume more correlation in the Jewish conspiracy theories.

People should overcome their programming and develop a rational mindset; at one point it was a "conspiracy theory" that the earth revolved around the sun.[/quote]

Sir, and you are quoting a red rag to support your position? Anyway, just to point out - and this from public articles only ...

1. A. Kejriwal initially approaches Baba Ramdev camp to get some support on JLPB (India Today/Articles on Kejriwal)
1a. Kejriwal distances himself from B.R after giving a speech on JLPB., some say he wants it to keep apolitical, others say he does not want it to be tainted by "hindutva" and he approaches Anna Hazare

Lot of things happen between Jantar Mantar and Ram Lila grounds.

2. Prior to all the speeches in Parliament, Anna Hazare asks where is the oppositions response?

3. Pat comes the response from BJP President (Nitin Gadkari) about full support to JLPB.

Now here is my take, if BJP had supported AH earlier, it would have been easily tarnished by the Congi/Pseudo-sickular media about a hindutva fascist take. The call for support to JLPB from BJP had to come from Anna and that gauntlet had to be thrown at the precise right moment, the moment wherein the media starts questioning the opposition (BJP) but the BJP itself is not completely tarnished. It was well choreographed, by chance or by design or both, gauntlet is thrown and immediately is answered leaving the rest high and dry. And conversations from Kiran Bedi prove that, particularly "L.K. Advaniji said - it will happen tomorrow". Also who provided the muscle? When B.R speaks at the IAC manch, who will come to listen? B.R's followers or A.H followers?

In between trial balloons are flown, like another bid of elections etc. This is to sense how much the rest of the MPs want to go for elections in this charged atmosphere. If they do not, then they are more likely to compromise (the MPs, that is) on the JLPB (and that is what happened).

There are several naysayers to the JLPB, but one major thing everybody is missing is that the CBI and ACB have a good chance of becoming a truly independent investigative agencies and that also means that politicking like Samjhauta Express becomes difficult. There is always chance of a good officer or politico getting "abused" by the Lok Ayukta, but if there is something that needs to be learnt from Gujarat, it solidifies the position of a honest officer and/or politico (everytime Arundhoti speaks against Na Mo, he gets more votes!).

At the end of the day, here are some of the losers:

1. Vepala Something Rao a.k.a self-styled swami - outed as a Congress lackey
2. The Congress Maino family - Osama was more vocal than the Sphinx
3. Amul Baby has come out completely clueless and so their buddies., it was their chance to sieze the moment - but they not just lost the plot, they could not even figure out what the plot is
4. All the pseudo-secular leftists - like Aruna Roy and Arundhati Roy and other camp followers. They have been showed what they are - camp followers and political gadflys.
5. The NAC - what is it still doing when they missed the issue of the day and did not have a single say in the final draft? For the Aam Admi on the street it was Anna and Kejriwal and Kiran and Baba Ramdev who were against corruption.
6. All the 2-bit dalit/muslim based parties - Shahi Imam of Jama masjid was reduced to sarkari imam. The fast was broken by a dalit and muslim girls, which dealt a complete blow to John Dayal types.

And here are some winners:

1. The people of India. They could express their angst against wholesale corruption from top to bottom and prove that it is they who matter (rich and poor alike).
2. The Indic ethos - fast unto death is as indic as it gets - and all in a completely non-violent movement where the foundations of the current government were shaken,
3. The "nationalist left"! Here please bear with me:

When we talk about left/right/center - we are looking at Indian politics through the prism of west. Western philosophy does not have grey areas - it has classic black or white - no shade in between, while Indic philosophy is all grey - with either degrees of white or degrees of black. So what do you make of a veteran soldier who uses gandhian methods with a dose of strict enforcement to improve his village? A gandhian, a nationalist, a fascist, a hindutvawadi, a left liberal, a socialist? All of the above - none of the above - some of the above?

Similarly on the "left" side, we do have people who think primarily of social causes (RTI/JLPB) and nothing else, at the same time there are "left liberal intellegentia" (A. Roy types) who are primarily political gadfly's - aam admi be damned, nation be damned, its culture be damned. This movement separated the left grain from the left chafe.

4. The nationalist forces. This was a homegrown movement and completely democratic - as a democracy we still have lot to learn, but given the neighbourhood (the arc from Europe to Japan) and given the diversity., this is the only multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, secular democracy in the world that is working. If that does not generate respect, I am not sure what will. Yes we are all corrupt and de-based and unwashed and all that - but unlike in M.E we have not picked up guns or unlike in Australia/Europe/US, we have not oppressed the minorities in our march to democracy.

[disha]

I dont think that Sonia is in US only for a cancer therapy

I do not think Sonia is in US at all!

[Dhiman]

I also support a suggestion made by somebody earlier to separate the legislature from the executive; lawmakers should not be able to benefit from the laws they are making. But for proper separation it may be necessary to have the elections on non-party basis.

Yes, execute and legislatures should both be directly elected with the caveat that an entity standing for executive elections can not stand for legislative elections and vice versa.

[Arjun]

^^ Excellent post, Disha!

The AH phenomenon truly brings a pride in Indian democracy and hope for governance that has been completely missing in the citizenry, with genuine reason.

One nitpick though -

Similarly on the "left" side, we do have people who think primarily of social causes (RTI/JLPB) and nothing else

I would not categorize RTI, JPLB as leftist causes....There are some folks who happen to be highly interested in the process of Governance and focus their thinking on how this can be bettered. But that is not a leftist sentiment in the least....One can be completely 'rightist' in economic leaning - as I am, and yet strongly identify with the movement for governance reforms.

Leftists are typically those who are against the process of economic liberalization, or focus entirely on redistributive schemes (like NREGA) at the expense of growth....

As long as the movement's focus is on 'governance' issues such as Lokpal, electoral reform etc it cannot be described as leftist. But if and when it starts moving towards genuinely leftist issues - it will certainly lose my support as well as those of a large section of the middle class / elite. Prashant Bhushan types need to be kept on eye on - so they don't hijack the movement.

[Pranav]

Police and intelligence working for Team Anna?

Sources in the team claimed they had information that a few people from the group might be government moles and would leak strategies formulated by them. But, as they had no mechanism to catch them, they were helpless.

"We were lucky. Where we failed, someone from outside Team Anna helped us. Even sources in government intelligence and police department helped us indirectly by sharing some information," another associate of Team Anna said.

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/aug/29 ... m-Anna.htm

[Pranav]

You want us to believe or disbelieve data points; depending on how they fit into the support of your grand "conspiracy model" with all being same controlled by dark actors.

Sorry, cant do that.

I am happy to evaluate all data points ... A good general rule is that the side that wants to shut down free discussion is the side that is either rigidly programmed or has skeletons to hide.

[Pranav]

They have both directly questioned the reports as mischievous propaganda.

They could have directly contradicted the reports by saying that they were very happy with the BJP policies vis-a-vis Team Anna. They chose to not do that.

[Pranav]

Now here is my take, if BJP had supported AH earlier, it would have been easily tarnished by the Congi/Pseudo-sickular media about a hindutva fascist take. The call for support to JLPB from BJP had to come from Anna and that gauntlet had to be thrown at the precise right moment, the moment wherein the media starts questioning the opposition (BJP) but the BJP itself is not completely tarnished. It was well choreographed, by chance or by design or both, gauntlet is thrown and immediately is answered leaving the rest high and dry. And conversations from Kiran Bedi prove that, particularly "L.K. Advaniji said - it will happen tomorrow".

Valid points. But I think the choreography was by chance, not design. A good ending for the second battle, the war continues.

[Pranav]

An extension of my "hypothetical negative vote logic", and using Mupalla's example, suppose, instead of "I hate Everyone", there are as many extra negative choices as no. of candidates, like:
[1] INC (Dawood)
[2] Shiv Sena (Uddav)
[3] INC fields the worst candidate [negative vote]
[4] Shiv Sena fields the worst candidate[negative vote]

Now, each negative vote in [3] subtracts one vote from [1], and each negative vote in [4] subtracts one vote from [2]
So, assuming that out of the 26 "I hate everyone" crowd, 16 choose [3] and 10 choose [4], that leaves the following tally:
INC = 24+12 = 36 { -16} = 20
Shiv Sena = 10 +6 = 16 { -10} = 6
Negative votes = 26
A better situation, at least in this example.

On one hand "reject all" may divide the educated types ... and on the other hand many times the winner has just 1/3rd of the votes in an election with 50% turnout. So one can win with just 17% of the total vote. If all candidates are bad, and if more than 17% can be persuaded to come and say that all candidates are bad (not hard if voting is compulsory), then the election will stand cancelled.

So, right to reject may be viable if combined with compulsory voting.