Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Nov 2011 20:23

Shiv, have you read Aatish Taseer's "Stranger to History"? Maybe the fastest way to deprogram radical Islam in Pakistan is for it to take over overtly that state.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Nov 2011 20:29

The Wall Street Journal, citing unnamed Afghan sources, is reporting that Pakistani forces fired first challenging the claim of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan that the ISAF/NATO helicopter attack on a Pakistani check-post was unprovoked.

Click the comment tabs as well and check out that section to the article which has seen a good amount of traffic:

Afghans Say Pakistan Fired First in NATO Attack

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2011 20:29

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv, have you read Aatish Taseer's "Stranger to History"? Maybe the fastest way to deprogram radical Islam in Pakistan is for it to take over overtly that state.

Arun - you are making me depressed because you are adding to my reading list which is already 7-8 books behind and I have all those books with me. I will read it though.

By some process of reasoning I had reached that conclusion myself - which is why I have been recommending exactly that for Pakistan and have always asked on here "Why shouldn't the Taliban take over Pakistan?"

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 20:35

If one can establish the dominance on ground and be ready to use force, then the major centres and lead groups of the ideology can be neutralised in 10 yrs. The ideology would be defanged.

From then on, the masses can be indoctrinated via all media. It will take just 15 years to see the difference. Some remnants of ideology will remain. They will be cleansed in course of time. Unless, this system is broken, the ideology will be dead and burned.

The use of force is critical. And not allowing any lead group to survive while they have not given up their ideology is essential.

What one should not do is half-hearted use of force. It is akin to throwing a stones at a beehive. Inadequate use of force will only strengthen the ideology. An eg: US WOT...so far.

When first phase of force is used, they will defend very hard. At the second phase, they will defend harder. In the third phase, they will ponder whether its worth it. In the fourth, desertions from the ideology will start. In the fifth, the flood gates of desertions will open.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Nov 2011 20:36

Upendra wrote:
menon s wrote:Shah Mohammed Qureshi calls himself, Ghaznavi 2 at his speech in #Gotki
Ghaznavi had Malik Ayaz as his slave lover? Who is Qureshi's lover?

mike mullen, but role reversal is there...

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Nov 2011 20:48

# A_GUPTA
QUOTE : Maybe the fastest way to deprogram radical Islam in Pk is for it to take over overtly that state.

I agree with this idea because the real trigger for splitting pak will come from within. This will happen when a radical pak takes over pk overtly. But this will be accompanied with a violent war with India as a logical consequence. We dont need Chamberlain types of PM but Churchill Types of PM in such situation.

Note that the 1947 Partition made the unmanageable muslim communalism , manageable after the split. The Ummah believers must be split into numerous small pieces to make them manageable in the 21st Century. We need to take advantage of this.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Nov 2011 20:49

The “Official” mouthpiece of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Associated Press of Pakistan (APP), is reporting Pakistani Interior Minister Rehman Malik as saying that the NATO supply route has been “stopped permanently”.

With Rehman Malik’s track record, let us see how long it will take for us to see a flip flop:

NATO supply stopped permanently: Malik

ISLAMABAD, Nov 27 (APP): Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Sunday said that the supply of NATO has not been suspended rather it has been stopped permanently. Talking to reporters here at National Crisis Management Cell of Ministry of Interior, he strongly condemned the NATO attack on Pakistani forces. “NATO force should respect feelings of Pakistani nation.” He said the nation and the government were aggrieved on the death of 24 officials of Pakistani security forces in the wake of NATO aggression on Salala post in Mohmand Agency. He said the decisions of the Defence Cabinet Committee (DCC) on the NATO forces attack inside Pakistan would be implemented in letter and spirit. “The decisions of the DCC are final and would be implemented,” he added.

The Minister said that NATO containers which have been stopped would not be allowed to cross the Pak-Afghan border.

Malik said that the democratic government of Pakistan would not take dictation from anyone. ............

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 27 Nov 2011 20:49

>>Maybe the fastest way to deprogram radical Islam in Pakistan is for it to take over overtly that state.

Maybe, maybe not. The Iranian example exists, and so does the Afghan example (which would likely still in place if 9/11 hadn't occurred). I'm specifically referring to the "deprogram radical Islam" part.

On the other hand, a Taliban takeover of Pakistan is a near perfect outcome from our point of view, so I am all in favour of it. Plus Pakistan will simply finally become what it was meant to be. What has prevented that from happening is neither Allah, nor the Army but America. But it seems, finally and inevitably, America is preparing to cut that scumbilical cord.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 20:53

I find it hard to believe that an ideology(or the organisation) can be defeated by allowing it to take over the state. Perhaps, the idea is ideological anti-incumbency. But I am not sure. I tend to think that once in power, the ideology(or organisation) has various tools to perpetuate and monopolise.

It seems to me that a non-ideological entity's direct intervention is a must to overthrow the ideology. If an internal revolution against the ideology is the goal, even then a non-ideological entity's subtle intervention to nurture a group that can revolt against the ideology is needed.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 21:03

India should declare itself not a Hindu state but a Dharmic Nation. Every 4 years the President of India should be from one of India's Dharmic sects. The constitution should be so amended. Rest all should continue in the normal manner. People debating about Dharma itself will instill Dharma in the nation. That will focus us on solidifying Dharmic behavior in our neighborhood. Paki's will take fear, annihilation to change. Neither we should fear them being afraid or being annihilated. We won't as long as we stand by Dharma.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 27 Nov 2011 21:12

harbans wrote:India should declare itself not a Hindu state but a Dharmic Nation. Every 4 years the President of India should be from one of India's Dharmic sects. The constitution should be so amended. Rest all should continue in the normal manner. People debating about Dharma itself will instill Dharma in the nation. That will focus us on solidifying Dharmic behavior in our neighborhood. Paki's will take fear, annihilation to change. Neither we should fear them being afraid or being annihilated. We won't as long as we stand by Dharma.

Dharma! What's the point! The terrorist scums don't have any religion, no sect, no Dharma and they don't show mercy for anyone following the same nor are scared about the same. As for instilling fear in the Pakis, Dharma can't do that, only solid actions coming from a strong backbone can!

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 27 Nov 2011 21:18

It appears a high ranking SSG Commando has been killed in NATO bombings. I am trying to get his name. This is turning into an avalanche of emotions in Pakistan.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 21:33

Dharma! What's the point! The terrorist scums don't have any religion

Forget terrorists, do we have Dharma left? Look at the 2600th Anniv of Buddha our PM and Prez didn't have the guts to attend cowering to the Chinese, you think they will have guts to stand up against terror scum? This lot would rather meekly surrender in the end or create circumstances where surrender is the only option. The only way we would stand for Dharma is by constitutionalizing it. No other way we could confront terrorism.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Nov 2011 21:55

High ranking SSG Kommando???...seems something was reallly up there and ISAF/NATO bombed the shite out of talibunnies and poakroaches...and is the reports are true, SF was keeping a tab and called in the cavalry at opportune moment...good bang for the buck.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2011 21:57

dada wrote: the population of pakistan was ~ 65m in 1971 & today in 2011 it is ~190m
also the number of such indoctrinated people has crossed 50% ( beyond the critical mass) and it is widely believed that the process of social indoctrination is now a self-sustaining process beyond the control of even the most well intentioned government if it captures power in coming election !

do u believe that both the processes can co-exist ? . imagine the following condition.
a self sustaining indoctrination process v/s a unsustainable reverse indoctrination process ?
no pakistani ruler has managed to rule beyond 10 years (since 1940)

so let us discuss how the self sustaining indoctrination process can be killed. First make this process , unsustainable. 90% of extremists & their philospher teachers are from urban / rural areas of western pakistani punjab & NWFP we have to hit them hard here. Consider the possibility of internal restructuring of the politics of paki punjab in which that state will be split into atleast 2 or more substates including areas around bahawalpur, seraikistan etc.

This is how I see it.

1. Radical Islam is now in partial control of Pakistan. Pakistan "survives" as a nation state only because the ruling elite and army realise that the Islam they love so much will not get them any money or friends if they too start appearing to be radical islamists to the West and donors like China. What radical Islam does is to become brutal on fellow Muslims. Islam is nothing about peace, It is all war. As long as Hindus and Sikhs were being cleansed Pakistan none of Pakistan's donors gave a rat's ass. But as the killing (shias, Ahmedis and others) became more brutal and spread, Pakistan got "noticed".

A radical country run by a Taliban like government causes so much horror and disgust that it becomes politically easy for opponents to mobilise domestic support to attack and kill or defeat radical Islamists by war or other means. That is why Islamists hide their true behavior when they feel weak. It became much easier for Indians to mobilise support against Pakistan after 26/11. All of India's fake liberals and pseudoseculars were partially silenced. A Pakistan that is taken over by the Taliban can be expected to kill most of the sympathy India has for Pakis and quash pseudosecularism. For these reasons I see advantages in a radical takeover of Pakistan.

2. If however the "moderate forces" of Pakistan are strengthened by US and India support, I see only a continuation of the same nonsense with the US and India living on hope that the moderates will somehow win while the Islamists bide their time.

Pakistan needs to sink before it can be cleaned up. It has not sunk far enough because there are too many Pakistan supporters. Rather than fighting those supporters and hoping they are killed. i would rather try and ensure that the worst Islamists do come to power and start beheading women and executing people in public in Pakistan as state policy. It already happens now but the Paki "state" denies that it is state policy. That is the taqiya that the state is following. That mask should be removed by provoking them .

The Paki state is already Islamist, with a thin veneer of moderation that is supported by Indian and US idiocy that chooses to believe the moderate taqiya as representative of all of Pakistan.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 27 Nov 2011 22:14

That makes a lot of sense.

A pliable pit bull will have 3 and a half guys trying to manage it for their uses. A mad dog on the other hand becomes everyones problem. Putting it to sleep is the only option. So, all we should say is god speed to the pakis on their way to total talibunny control.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 27 Nov 2011 22:21

America’s Pakistan Mess Gets Worse With Alleged NATO Strike (bruce Reidel)

Even before NATO allegedly killed 24 Pakistani soldiers, this alliance was a wreck. Bruce Riedel on the decades of deceit that have put Obama in diplomatic hell—and why Pakistan holds all the cards.

This trust gap is the result of decades of mutual deceit and lying. Pakistan proclaimed it was our ally against communism or Al Qaeda or whatever when what it really just wanted was arms and help to fight India. America promised to help democracy in Pakistan and instead backed four brutal military dictators. Ironically, the Army believes we have betrayed it over and over again. We have.

America has to engage Pakistan. It is too important not to engage. It is on track to have the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

Wow. Bigger even than the tallel than mounted fliend's??

More apologetic bilge from the khans desperate to keep Pak propped up in one piece for as long as feasible.

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Nov 2011 22:38

dada wrote:http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/27/view-fro ... ifled.html

Experiences of a Pakistani
===================
Place : A Museum in NY USA displaying the works of Indian Painters from 1100-1900AD
(mostly muslims from the Mughal Era)

Event : Visit by a Pakistani

Typical RAPE. Lives outside Pakistan, "acts" liberal.

believes Pakistan is the inheritor of Mughal India, believes Zia is responsible for the current state of Pakistan and that before him Pakistan was a paradise,

Why did the 20-something Jobs spend seven months in India looking for Zen, when he could have come to Pakistan, the mother of Gandhara civilisation? He could have spent his time among the ruins of ancient Buddhist monastery at Jaulian or roamed around the ruins of Takht-i-Bahi, or gone to that lovely British relic, the Taxila Museum with sloping roofs tiled in green lined with tall graceful Cyprus trees

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 22:41

I agree. The complete ideological take over of the state will 'threaten' the non-ideological entities, and they would prepare to annihilate the ideology by direct or indirect intervention. So, eventually, intervention is necessary.

However, I dont agree with the idea that ideological takeover of state, devoid of non-ideological entity's intervention, in itself will destroy the ideology. To me, intervention seems the only way to end the ideology. So, whatever provokes such intervention is welcome.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 27 Nov 2011 22:59

dada wrote:Religious Fundamentalism is highest & strongest in the poor & lowest class of 65% pakistani society. But this is the very Class which lends itself to be used as a TOOL

Who are the USED & specifically WHO are the USERS ?

The definitions of HUMAN TOOL are indeed interesting

A Person who is
used for other’s purpose / aim / to accomplish something
acts for someone's else benefit
has no idea what he is doing ( especially wrong & stupid things)
is easily manipulated
is characterized by low intelligence & low self esteem
is a dumb / a fool / a idiot ( a useful one for others ! )
does not think for self
a dummy who acts without thinking through
lacks the mental capacity to know / realize that he is being used
oblivious to what is happening within his own mind / outside

Do we have any strategy to deal with these Class ?

Strategy based on "People to People Approach" , Aman Ka Tamasha never involve people from this Class.

dada, Shiv ji, others:

One doesnt have to make it overly complicated. These islamic zombies exist entirely in a halucinatory environment derived from total indoctrination. That and the total belief in pre determination (allah ki marzi - will of allah). But they draw their strength form the power of myths- myths that they believe in absolutely. The quickest means of reducing them to bottom dweller/scum sucking beasts that they are, is by demolishing their myths. That is pretty much what was done to their ancestors who converted. Luckely, there were not the large numbers of Indians who were slaves to ritual and myths, so there were not that many who could be converted by this means. But the pakis are primed for it.

First, they have to be disabused of the myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful. One begins by demolishing as many ramshakle masjids that one can find. Where there are significant buildings of historical value, convert those to temples/gurudwaras. Masjids should ideally be converted to Kali/Durga temples, so animal sacrifice is kosher. Bring in young, succulant pigs for Bali to the Godess. Add a lot of loud religious musivc (that which goes with Bali sacrifice is perfect). Burn kuraans by the dozen to cook the pork. Do all this in presence of the mullah, other luminaries of their community. This will go on until they are convinced that allah/mummhad can do squat about it. I dont know if any on this forum remember the theft of mummhad's hair (baal) from the Hazratbaal masjid in Sirinagar, and the panic it created in the mussalmans over there. Once the lower zombies are disabused of their myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful, it will not take decades for them to come out into the sunshine. It is a tough recepie, but, from a reading of history, bound to work, and work in short order. Unless the power of their myths is broken, they will not change.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 27 Nov 2011 23:00

Sindh Liberation Army blows up railway tracks in interior Sindh: Jiye Sindh!

http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=27396

NAWABSHAH: Railway department, by repairing the up and down link rail tracks damaged by five explosions in a row near Hyderabad, Nawabshah and Mehrabpur railway stations, has restored the trains traffic, Geo News reported.

Sindh Liberation Army has accepted the responsibility of explosions on the tracks.

It may be recalled that several trains narrowly escaped from tragic mishaps due to the blasts blowing up rail tracks.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 27 Nov 2011 23:07

parsuram wrote:
dada wrote:Religious Fundamentalism is highest & strongest in the poor & lowest class of 65% pakistani society. But this is the very Class which lends itself to be used as a TOOL

Who are the USED & specifically WHO are the USERS ?

The definitions of HUMAN TOOL are indeed interesting

A Person who is
used for other’s purpose / aim / to accomplish something
acts for someone's else benefit
has no idea what he is doing ( especially wrong & stupid things)
is easily manipulated
is characterized by low intelligence & low self esteem
is a dumb / a fool / a idiot ( a useful one for others ! )
does not think for self
a dummy who acts without thinking through
lacks the mental capacity to know / realize that he is being used
oblivious to what is happening within his own mind / outside

Do we have any strategy to deal with these Class ?

Strategy based on "People to People Approach" , Aman Ka Tamasha never involve people from this Class.
dada, Shiv ji, others:

One doesnt have to make it overly complicated. These islamic zombies exist entirely in a halucinatory environment derived from total indoctrination. That and the total belief in pre determination (allah ki marzi - will of allah). But they draw their strength form the power of myths- myths that they believe in absolutely. The quickest means of reducing them to bottom dweller/scum sucking beasts that they are, is by demolishing their myths. That is pretty much what was done to their ancestors who converted. Luckely, there were not the large numbers of Indians who were slaves to ritual and myths, so there were not that many who could be converted by this means. But the pakis are primed for it.

First, they have to be disabused of the myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful. One begins by demolishing as many ramshakle masjids that one can find. Where there are significant buildings of historical value, convert those to temples/gurudwaras. Masjids should ideally be converted to Kali/Durga temples, so animal sacrifice is kosher. Bring in young, succulant pigs for Bali to the Godess. Add a lot of loud religious musivc (that which goes with Bali sacrifice is perfect). Burn kuraans by the dozen to cook the pork. Do all this in presence of the mullah, other luminaries of their community. This will go on until they are convinced that allah/mummhad can do squat about it. I dont know if any on this forum remember the theft of mummhad's hair (baal) from the Hazratbaal masjid in Sirinagar, and the panic it created in the mussalmans over there. Once the lower zombies are disabused of their myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful, it will not take decades for them to come out into the sunshine. It is a tough recepie, but, from a reading of history, bound to work, and work in short order. Unless the power of their myths is broken, they will not change.

This is a great topic, I believe this can be its own thread. To discuss "How can we manage Pakistan to our advantage" or something such.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 23:16

Ivanev wrote: Dharma! What's the point! The terrorist scums don't have any religion, no sect, no Dharma and they don't show mercy for anyone following the same nor are scared about the same. As for instilling fear in the Pakis, Dharma can't do that, only solid actions coming from a strong backbone can!

Dharmo rakshati rakshitah

Dharma is for those who adhere to it. If pakis adhere to dharma, then conflict will end. If they violate dharma, then they are adharmics. If they wish to harm dharma, then they are vidharmics.

Dharma forces its adherents to stand up against the adharma. Dharma stops its adherents from wriggling away from defence of dharma from the onslaught of vidharmics. Dharma dictates its adherents to stick with dharma, even if it involves the slaughter of kith and kin. Dharma does not allow its adherents to masquerade cowardice as magnanmity. The context of Bhagavad Gita illustrates these points.

In Mahabharata, the blind king Dhritarashtra sends a envoy with a message to Dharmaraja(Yuddhishter). The summary of the message was: we cant return your kingdom. But since you are man of peace, dont initiate war. It is better to beg than rule blood-soaked throne.
Dharmaraja and Sri Krishna rubbished this message. They gave a counter-offer: give us the kingdom or prepare for war.

Duryodhana chose war. At the fag end of war, on the 18th day, the forces on both sides had almost perished. Duryodhana's army was wiped out. Duryodhana had always been itching for war. But now, he decided to flee. He hid underwater. Pandavas and Sri Krishna reached the spot. Duryodhana talked of peace. Dharmaraja did not buy it. At last, Duryodhana met his end.

The culture of dharma is not limited to forgiving.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 23:28

Johnee Ji..thanks for the great post. Good to read that looking at the Adharmic cowardice that springs out of this spineless Govt and it's functionaries.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 27 Nov 2011 23:42

parsuram wrote: dada, Shiv ji, others:

One doesnt have to make it overly complicated. These islamic zombies exist entirely in a halucinatory environment derived from total indoctrination. That and the total belief in pre determination (allah ki marzi - will of allah). But they draw their strength form the power of myths- myths that they believe in absolutely. The quickest means of reducing them to bottom dweller/scum sucking beasts that they are, is by demolishing their myths. That is pretty much what was done to their ancestors who converted. Luckely, there were not the large numbers of Indians who were slaves to ritual and myths, so there were not that many who could be converted by this means. But the pakis are primed for it.

First, they have to be disabused of the myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful. One begins by demolishing as many ramshakle masjids that one can find. Where there are significant buildings of historical value, convert those to temples/gurudwaras. Masjids should ideally be converted to Kali/Durga temples, so animal sacrifice is kosher. Bring in young, succulant pigs for Bali to the Godess. Add a lot of loud religious musivc (that which goes with Bali sacrifice is perfect). Burn kuraans by the dozen to cook the pork. Do all this in presence of the mullah, other luminaries of their community. This will go on until they are convinced that allah/mummhad can do squat about it. I dont know if any on this forum remember the theft of mummhad's hair (baal) from the Hazratbaal masjid in Sirinagar, and the panic it created in the mussalmans over there. Once the lower zombies are disabused of their myth that allah/mummhad is all powerful, it will not take decades for them to come out into the sunshine. It is a tough recepie, but, from a reading of history, bound to work, and work in short order. Unless the power of their myths is broken, they will not change.

What you are prescribing is prescription for communal riots, and not acceptable. Our problem is a certain interpretation of Islam, mainly the Paki variety radical fundamentalist Islam, but not the Islam or muslims who peacefully co-exitence with the rest, and I am guessing that there are a whole lot of them, probably the silent majority.

I like Shiv's ideas better.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 23:48

harbans wrote:Johnee Ji..thanks for the great post. Good to read that looking at the Adharmic cowardice that springs out of this spineless Govt and it's functionaries.

Thanks for appreciation.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 27 Nov 2011 23:52

Quote

Jose Calabro wrote:

I don't feel sorry for the Pakistani "soldiers" any more than I would feel sorry for a parolee being busted when a raid in a drug house catches him or her there "accidentally". Those bombs and missiles have a limited killing radius. If one is as little as one hundred yards away from the terrorists when they are bombed one can survive the attack. However, if you sleep in the same house, play cards with them, cook with them, party with them, or share stories at the side of the same camp fire with them you will be caught in the explosion and go meet your exhausted and by now fed up no longer virgin virgins. Let's keep it simple. Stay away from trouble, by as little as what a domestic restraining order requires here, and you get to live. Act dumb and you will find out that the virgins are in fact hairy leg Virginians and no amount of prayer will change the trajectory of hypersonic missiles.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 28 Nov 2011 00:03

People are day dreaming on this forum, the current goi is not going to do anything to annoy anybody.
If Pakistan is in bad shape, let it rot itself. It is in not in india's control as to what Pakistan does.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 28 Nov 2011 00:05

Dipankar ji, what ever is practiced in the paki is not anything to do with religion. Communal riots where? In India? No community in India has any right or reason to riot on account of the pakis getting all that they deserve. And any community in India that attempts to riot on belf of the pakis should get the same treatment meeted out to the pakis. No tikki, no laundly. Can't make omletts without breaking eggs. Communities in India should thank their luckey stars that they live in a Dharmic country.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Nov 2011 00:09

Hari Seldon wrote:America’s Pakistan Mess Gets Worse With Alleged NATO Strike (bruce Reidel)

America has to engage Pakistan. It is too important not to engage. It is on track to have the third-largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

This is diplomatic gobly gook to hide the real intent. The preservation of both TSPA and it nukes for other geo-political objectives. Funny thing is that this false premise is established and nobody in the US media has the guts nor the intellectual horsepower to question this balderdash.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 Nov 2011 00:11

Attacking(verbally or/and physically) the symbols, figures, beliefs, places, monuments, personalities and icons is an easy way to discredit an ideology in the eyes of its followers. This is a commonly practiced tactic.

If it is a closed ideology with crude concepts then the tactic is more effective. Even otherwise, the tactic works fairly well.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 28 Nov 2011 00:16

Dipanker wrote: What you are prescribing is prescription for communal riots, and not acceptable. Our problem is a certain interpretation of Islam, mainly the Paki variety radical fundamentalist Islam, but not the Islam or muslims who peacefully co-exitence with the rest, and I am guessing that there are a whole lot of them, probably the silent majority.

I like Shiv's ideas better.

Partially agree but not with the bold part. The current social structure of Islam, does, in the long term make this silent majority fundamentalist. This is what we are seeing in Pakistan. The first step should be the decentralization of power within the religion much like the christian reformation. Every so-called "Islamic reform movements" like Deoband, Ahmadiyya etc subscribe to the same power structure of mullacracy, blind faith to Koran, hadiths etc. Changing this fundamental structure should be the first step.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 28 Nov 2011 00:24

KrishG wrote:
Dipanker wrote: What you are prescribing is prescription for communal riots, and not acceptable. Our problem is a certain interpretation of Islam, mainly the Paki variety radical fundamentalist Islam, but not the Islam or muslims who peacefully co-exitence with the rest, and I am guessing that there are a whole lot of them, probably the silent majority.

I like Shiv's ideas better.
Partially agree but not with the bold part. The current social structure of Islam, does, in the long term make this silent majority fundamentalist. This is what we are seeing in Pakistan. The first step should be the decentralization of power within the religion much like the christian reformation. Every so-called "Islamic reform movements" like Deoband, Ahmadiyya etc subscribe to the same power structure of mullacracy, blind faith to Koran, hadiths etc. Changing this fundamental structure should be the first step.

blind faith to quran is not bad,like any hindu can have blind faith to gita. no religion teaches fundamentalism.no religion preaches terrorism. if someone follows a religion it makes that person good.what we see in muslims these days or for that matter some hindus ( godhra, and bari demolisher type) is stupidity. gita does not teach violence,,quran does not preach non tolerance...its the stupid mullahs or the babas who deviate people for selfish gains.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 28 Nov 2011 00:36

saptarishi wrote: blind faith to quran is not bad,like any hindu can have blind faith to gita. no religion teaches fundamentalism.no religion preaches terrorism. if someone follows a religion it makes that person good.what we see in muslims these days or for that matter some hindus ( godhra, and bari demolisher type) is stupidity. gita does not teach violence,,quran does not preach non tolerance...its the stupid mullahs or the babas who deviate people for selfish gains.

"faith" is not bad. "Blind faith" is. It is nothing but a result of a person's inability to make conscious decisions but how his faith is to be practiced either out of his own stupidity or the prevailing power structure in his religious community, which doesn't permit him to use his brains. When there are so many extremist strains in a particular religion then there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the religion. Now, when such kind of introspection is itself outlawed (and strictly adhered to) in that religion then what significant change can be expected without fundamental changes within the particular religion ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Nov 2011 00:41

saptarshi, have you read the koran and/or the hadith ? you might want to do that first.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 Nov 2011 00:46

Its preposterous to club all the various creeds under one category and then make generic statements like 'no creed is good' or 'no religion is bad'.

If there are conflicting interpretations, then who is the authority to decide which is the correct interpretation? Each will claim his own interpetation as correct and other's interpretation as wrong.

Are there any statistics to prove that milder interpretations are more popularly believed than radical versions? Are the radical interpretations being challenged by the majority?

What is the position of eminent religious authorities?

Why assume that all ideologies are equal?

Ultimately, the trackrecord of an ideology speaks out the truth...

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 28 Nov 2011 00:48

KrishG wrote:
saptarishi wrote: blind faith to quran is not bad,like any hindu can have blind faith to gita. no religion teaches fundamentalism.no religion preaches terrorism. if someone follows a religion it makes that person good.what we see in muslims these days or for that matter some hindus ( godhra, and bari demolisher type) is stupidity. gita does not teach violence,,quran does not preach non tolerance...its the stupid mullahs or the babas who deviate people for selfish gains.
"faith" is not bad. "Blind faith" is. It is nothing but a result of a person's inability to make conscious decisions but how his faith is to be practiced either out of his own stupidity or the prevailing power structure in his religious community, which doesn't permit him to use his brains. When there are so many extremist strains in a particular religion then there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the religion. Now, when such kind of introspection is itself outlawed (and strictly adhered to) in that religion then what significant change can be expected without fundamental changes within the particular religion ?

even blind faith is not bad,,but blind faith to something false is bad...just cheack gita ,quran or bible,,,,nothing in them is wrong....gita teaches us to do our duty without expectation of result .it teaches dhyan yog,karma yog etc,,,quran teaches devotion to god kindness,,,bible teaches mercy and devotion,,,,,,NO ONE FAILS IF THESE ABOVE VIRTUES ARE FOLLOWED.PROBLEM STARTS WHEN a mullah /clergy/baba misinterprets the teachings for personal gains.....quran doesn't preach killing in the name of jehad is a way to heaven,,,,,GITA DOESN'T ask us to masacre muslims in gujarat or demolish a mosque.....its the stupid mullahs and VHP/RSS TYPE BIGOTS who destroy the sacred religions,,thats it,,,we can have BLIND FAITH IN RELIGION but we should be careful while trusting the preachers

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 01:11

KrishG wrote:
saptarishi wrote:---
"faith" is not bad. "Blind faith" is. It is nothing but a result of a person's inability to make conscious decisions but how his faith is to be practiced either out of his own stupidity or the prevailing power structure in his religious community, which doesn't permit him to use his brains. When there are so many extremist strains in a particular religion then there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the religion. Now, when such kind of introspection is itself outlawed (and strictly adhered to) in that religion then what significant change can be expected without fundamental changes within the particular religion ?

Rahul M wrote:saptarshi, have you read the koran and/or the hadith ? you might want to do that first.

+1 to both.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 28 Nov 2011 01:18

saptarishi wrote: blind faith to quran is not bad,like any hindu can have blind faith to gita. no religion teaches fundamentalism.no religion preaches terrorism. ...its the stupid mullahs or the babas who deviate people for selfish gains.

Really? Start from here.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Nov 2011 01:21

dada wrote:http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/27/view-fro ... ifled.html
Experiences of a Pakistani===================
Place : A Museum in NY USA displaying the works of Indian Painters from 1100-1900AD
(mostly muslims from the Mughal Era)
Event : Visit by a Pakistani

This Pakkie has insulted Isalm and the Prophet by expressing admiration for Jihala. He lost his civilizational link but got the only true kight of Deen as reward which is enough to take care of his all needs here and over there . He should rejoice and not feel anguished. But look here, Jihala having stronger pull than any make belief. After winning the victory in Google search for animal sex, Pakistano now moving further up

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 011_pg11_4
Sale of unethical books on the rise in twin cities
All H ass an

ISLAM A BAD: At stage where advancement in technology has enchanted modern youth towards book reading, the booksellers, however are cashing in this phenomenon by selling unethical, obscene and immoral literature, Daily Times has learnt. During visits of different places in twin cities Daily Times learnt that the students are more interested in unethical books rather than knowledgeable books and they like to read vulgar literature, not only students but people from different professions read such kind of immoral books.
Besides, the authority did not take any action against such kinds of bookseller. These kinds of books are usually sold at bus stops in twin cities of Rawalpindi and Islamabad. The students of different colleges and school come these bus stops, search for vulgar literature on these stalls, instead of purchasing informative books. It was learnt that the conductors, beggars and labors seen on bus stops also search for vulgar pictorial books or novels. These kinds of books stalls are seen at Peerwadhai, Faizabad, I-10 and G-7 bus stops. Novels of nudity, vulgar poetry and many other unethical books are being sold there.These kinds of books adversely affect the minds and approach of young students. Such books are being sold only at Rs 30 to 35 on the stall at bus stops of twin cities. These books are source of entertainment for lower class community of labors, conductors and beggars. The wrongdoings spreading in our society is the result of reading these vulgar and unethical novels and books. They give rise to many gender related issues in our society.
Psychologist and physicist Dr Sharif Astori said that young generation is an important asset of the country. They are moving towards wrongdoings instead of good deeds. He also said that reading immoral books adversely affect the thinking capability of people. It affects the process of personality building of our youth. Then people are forced to think negatively, instead of taking things positively. ( Wonder which Book has all this)Therefore effective action needs to be taken against these booksellers. Another bookseller Hamid Chugtai sells novels and magazines at I-10 bus stop. He told that he sells old novels and course books of different classes, but our young generation is least interested in buying them. Therefore they need to display this kind of substandard books at the bookstalls. It is the only source of income for them and they earn money to fulfill the required expenditures of their household. He also told that students demand these books without any hesitation. Therefore the booksellers have to keep in mind the market demand while selling the books. Talking to Daily Times Pakistan Academy of Letters (PAL) Director Tariq Shahid said that the dilemma is that our society is moving towards unethical and immoral things and people are interested in vulgarity and wrongdoings.