Small Arms Thread

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 00:04

tejas wrote:^^^ I was born in Tenali, AP thank you very much. My rant is that there is still no change in the socialist mindset put us in the predicament we are currently in. The OFB will be there whether they make money, lose money or provide rifles whose barrels burst after 3 shots. Why is the contract for producing this rifle not put up for competitive bidding? Do you think a private company will do a $hitty job when $2-3 billion is at stake?

The private sector, like nature, abhors a vacuum. If there is money to be made they will always go after that money with a product. It is up to the GOI to provide the right incentives and encourage Indian industry to take over the reigns of production. Once a private group gets comfortable producing an assault rifle they will definitely have a huge incentive to improve upon or develop a new product for the IA given the amount of money at stake. Otherwise we will continue to have the absurd situation where we import piston-propeller driven trainers while simultaneously building 4-5th generation fighters. All this monry should be spent in India.


absolutely bang on..!!...the OFB are practically useless ..however the problem is of chicken and egg.. if all the metallurgy students join TCS and Infy and only the bottom 10% of the batch join PSUs ... this is what is going to happen .. so not sure whom to blame here... I remember talking to L&T chairman A.M Naik during convocation ceremony 5 yrs back.... asked him about our current challenges as a country .. he clearly listed Infy and Wipro as the one.. but at the same time .. some of the biggest defence spending that we are capable of doing is because of the huge info of service related salary and subsequent tax collection ... !!

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 01 Dec 2011 01:14

I checked the RoI for the assault rifle which was issued in 2010, you can google it. The RFI was issued by the 'FINSAS office' that project office is planning to equip infantry soldier of future. Appears more like an effort to gather data and test best/latest on "no-cost no-commitment' basis. Even if they buy 66K of the best of the best from foreign market, they'll be used with Special Forces and become a benchmark for future INSAS developments. This might again be an effort to buy ToT for filling some critical gaps to expedite domestic FINSAS development. RFI asks vendors to indicate what is the minimum quantity that needs to be procured to get ToT :lol:

Indian armed forces need/use upwards 5 million assault rifles, 66K new ones at the top end is nothing but a cherry on the cake. Someone posted a news item that quoted OFB saying that there are close to 2 million INSAS rifles with armed forces and production continues. We shouldn't and can't make all type of low value/volume assault rifles at home and armed forces deserve right to get right tools for right nich.

In US assault rifles sell for as low as $30 a pop, a good new one is usually under $100. Rahul Bedi and Rajat Pandit are old-school media hands who think it is their job and responsibility to 'only' criticize govt efforts while govt plays defense by presenting the other side of the coin. Fair, balance and fact based informative articles with quotes from professional and official sources are more of a new fashion that won’t change these “old F@rts”. I wouldn’t call them anti Indian or lifafa journalists, they just belong to different and outdated (and wrong IMO) school of thought. Opposition politicians also follow that school of thought where they don't give credit or appreciate govt successes because in parliamentary system that is not their jobs. CAG and other auditors also focus only on the mistakes, errors and violations without any considaration to rest of the picture.

As readers/listners it is expected of us to look at both sides before making-up our mind and understand that most players (not all or all the time) are working from angles that they think best serves India's/citizens interests.

RajSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 22:20

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RajSingh » 01 Dec 2011 02:51

Saar .. I am a graduate from IIT kgp . a bunch of my friends joined HAL , MDL , NTPC , BHEL , DRDO etc. in 2009 when we graduated and now most of them have either left the companies or are eager to leave it .. not because the salary is less ( which is actually pretty good for IITians) but because there is no work. All innovative work is outsourced to private companies and the managers hardly utilize the skills of the engineers . Everybody is happy sitting down and making money and doing nothing. The young people want more challenges and so move on to do higher degrees or join companies with more challenge.

and BTW no one goes to Wipro and Infy from IIT's . Its considered an insult if a BTech from IIT has to join these IT companies !!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54698
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2011 03:22

So are you aero or mech? Am from IITM masters in mech. I like engineering and am still at it.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tejas » 01 Dec 2011 04:58

Viv S, clearly there many tasks the private sector simply cannot perform at this time. No private group could desing or build the LCA or Arjun or even a 155 mm howitzer for example. What I am trying to say is the GOI has to start the process where by private firms can crawl and walk before they finally run. Awarding this assault rifle contract to a private group to produce ( with initial outside help) would be a good start. I would also hope a national effort to design a 155 mm howitzer would result in a private company ( Mahindra, L&T or Bharat Forge for example) being the manufacturer. Given the profit from a large order they would then be in a good position to develop the follow on product ( with the GOI subsidizing R&D as is done in the West).

Clearly what we are doing now is a dismal failure. The question is not if we need to change, it is what changes we need to make. Einstein once said the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Why do we expect socialist production methods and policies to work wondres in India when they have failed everywhere else?

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 05:43

RajSingh wrote:Saar .. I am a graduate from IIT kgp . a bunch of my friends joined HAL , MDL , NTPC , BHEL , DRDO etc. in 2009 when we graduated and now most of them have either left the companies or are eager to leave it .. not because the salary is less ( which is actually pretty good for IITians) but because there is no work. All innovative work is outsourced to private companies and the managers hardly utilize the skills of the engineers . Everybody is happy sitting down and making money and doing nothing. The young people want more challenges and so move on to do higher degrees or join companies with more challenge.

and BTW no one goes to Wipro and Infy from IIT's . Its considered an insult if a BTech from IIT has to join these IT companies !!


That is absolutely true .. but likewise top 30%-40% of the batch goes to US for higher studies .. I have seen only few hard core mechanical engineers in my batch to stick to masters in IISc. or IIT. simply because they lacked the language skills to crack GRE...and unfortunately when I see those people who continued in masters.. they ended up in Honeywell, Intel and GE ... Like it or not .. it is a fact these days that given a first hand choice no one joins PSUs... but again for a solid foundation in engineering skill sets in a country you can not just rely on IIT .. you need to feed top class students from other engineering institutes as well...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 07:03

RajSingh wrote:Saar .. I am a graduate from IIT kgp . a bunch of my friends joined HAL , MDL , NTPC , BHEL , DRDO etc. in 2009 when we graduated and now most of them have either left the companies or are eager to leave it .. not because the salary is less ( which is actually pretty good for IITians) but because there is no work. All innovative work is outsourced to private companies and the managers hardly utilize the skills of the engineers . Everybody is happy sitting down and making money and doing nothing. The young people want more challenges and so move on to do higher degrees or join companies with more challenge.

and BTW no one goes to Wipro and Infy from IIT's . Its considered an insult if a BTech from IIT has to join these IT companies !!


I don't want to sound insulting to you or to anyone else. But let me just point out what appear to be "home truths" about Indian, IIT, engineering and education in India. All personal viewpoints just like yours, starting from having close family (brothers/cousins/in laws) in IIT Kgp, Mumbai, Madras ending up with their children and their generations children getting - some in IIT again and some non IIT engineers.

IITs are supposed to be the best engineering institutes in India and they are certainly better than most of the rest. But they still do not come very high up on the world ranking simply because even IIT alumni "look down" with contempt at anyone who has to do an MTech at IIT. You would never ever consult an MBBS doctor for anything but the most minor problems, you want a guy with specialist training. The more the merrier. Why shoud it be different for engineers. 4 years education hardly makes a good engineer out of a good student. IITs do not offer respectable post graduate education.

The other engineering colleges are worse barring the ones that are affiliated with AIEEE - the RECs and a few others. Even Infosys and WIPRO are not particularly bothered about IIT graduates because they can take on willing people from "lesser" colleges and train them to do the job they want done rather than use the material that IIT graduate come stuffed with i their heads. They seem to be doing perfectly well without IIT material.

The problem is that no employer in India can look for "IIT IIT IIT" every time. He can only hope to get the "average engineering graduate". The "average engg graduate" in India has attended 3-4 years of coaching classes from 9th to 12 std and he then gets into some engineering course in and engineering college with not enough faculty and who are sometimes unemployable elsewhere. The engineer who scrapes through is hardly an engineer. These are the people who man Indian industries.

Engineering innovation and excellence comes from research. Research means funds, science and high quality educational institutions that can offer respectable Techs or PhDs. Private companies are not doing much research. Most research is done in government labs of DRDO etc. The easiest thing is to curse and easier to be contemptuous of India. But it is more difficult to suppress the anger , convert it to concern and ask how to go about solving a fundamental education and research funding problem in India.

The "mai-baap" solution of "government should do this and that" is silly. If you curse the government on the one hand for being incompetent, you cannot expect the same government to come up with solutions. How does the government run good quality subsidized IITs while it cannot run government research labs? There is something important missing in this non analysis. Rants do not help. Most people who are good students in India who go abroad (like all my IIT relatives) end up feeling that "their talents were recognised abroad". That could mean that their talents, honed in IITs in india were actually no good for India. At least a few of them start identifying with the west which recognized their talents and then start roundly cursing the India that trained them to do well abroad.

No need to curse and rant.
Last edited by shiv on 01 Dec 2011 07:15, edited 1 time in total.

RajSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 22:20

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby RajSingh » 01 Dec 2011 07:11

Sir .. most of my batchmates stayed in India and very few 10-15% are abroad doing masters or all . The smartest of the people go to Google , microsoft , IBM research based in India. Finance is also a good attraction and mckinsey and others take a lot of good students. For mech nowadays lots of options in FMCG and Auto companies such as Mercedes and Nissan which have R&D in India. SO I won't say India does not have good companies but definitely the PSU's fail to retain the best.

@Ramana sir

I did my BTech in Biotech and Biochemical Engineering , right now doing PhD at UC Berkeley. When we graduated market was bad and I managed to get a job in FInance company onlee so had to take up this PhD offer :D

Hopefully will be back in India soon after finishing up !!! : )

@shiv Sir .

I agree with what you say but most IITians nowadays don't want to go abroad and a lot of them want to go in research too. but talking about ranting .. the labs in at least my department at IIT where excellently well stocked but the problem was quality professors but you know these things are changing too . 40% of professors in IIT Delhi and Mumbai are now less than 40 years of age and most of them are returning IITians who did their PhD abroad and came back. It has changed a lot from 80's and 90's when IITians left the country in hordes. I am just saying that PSU's still need to learn a lot in retaining talent.

Sorry for all the OT :((

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 07:20

RajSingh wrote:Sir .. most of my batchmates stayed in India and very few 10-15% are abroad doing masters or all . The smartest of the people go to Google , microsoft , IBM research based in India. Finance is also a good attraction and mckinsey and others take a lot of good students.


They were smart when they got in. I wish them similar luck over the next 30 years of their lives. What Indian needs is not so much engineering as science and research based in science. If we talk small arms we are looking at metallurgy. Metallurgy is chemistry, physics, geology. Now who does all that in India? We need investment in science, not engineering. BSc and MScs not BTechs and BEs. That in fact is happening. As the IT boom dies down careers in science are looking more attractive.

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 930
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 01 Dec 2011 07:35

Aditya_V wrote:$83 is also pretty cheap
No, it was about the right market price at that time (1990s). What we are seeing now are prices being paid that have no relationship with current market prices...

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 07:53

ParGha wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:$83 is also pretty cheap
No, it was about the right market price at that time (1990s). What we are seeing now are prices being paid that have no relationship with current market prices...

yes... great Indian loot

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1871
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby uddu » 01 Dec 2011 08:07

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 937653.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 497346.cms

Is there another scam brewing?
I do feel very much that the MOD has been penetrated by the Import lobby.

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 930
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 01 Dec 2011 08:14

Viv S wrote:The INSAS is simple, effective and rugged, but its derivates haven't panned out quite as well, and its obviously no substitute for the Tavor.


It should be the other way around: Tavors are no substitute for the failure to produce INSAS to the rugged specs it was designed for. A Tavor, whose 5.56x45mm rounds are no different than INSAS's (and supposedly unsuited for COIN), has no real better future than the INSAS. Money which could have been better spent giving the current INSAS/AKM/Vz58 systems an edge (via optics and ruggedization), and/or on exploring truly revolutionary breakthroughs (caseless ammo, smart 20mm grenades, etc), is being wasted on something which makes very little difference.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 08:15

Career counselling lectures are held in a dozen or more centers year in and year out in many cities in India, and Bangalore is one of them. People from Infosys and WIPRO talking about who or what they look for are are regulars at such events. They are emphatic in pointing out that tehy are not merely looking for only IIT graduates or even engineering graduates, or even just graduates in InfoTech related specialities. They will take on BSC and MScs as well, apart from having places even for niche engineering specialities like Ceramics tech engineering.

I want to make a comment about "smart people" and by implication the "unsmart" people who are unable to do what "smart people" do using a personal example. When I was a young lad training in medicine - the "smart people" did Medicine and Surgery. The rest who were presumably "unsmart" did other things. The reason why I emphasize the word "smart" is that it may not be as smart as one imagines. One enters a field and has to live in that field for 30 or 40 plus years, and in those 30 or 40 years all sorts of people who did "unsmart" things end up being in situations where being "unsmart" was smart.

Shifting manufacture of arms to private industry in India is OK provided the shift is done over the next 15-20 years. Do you know what that means? It means that if you are young and in love today, you may get married to your sweetheart and have a child who grows up and gets educated and is one of the people who gets a job in the private arms manufacturing firm in India. Private companies in India do not have the technology to manufacture innovative small arms. that tech cannot appear from thin air. Either it has to be imported (like DRDO?) or developed by in house research. Private companies in India have not invested in research and the papers for a few years have been full of government appeals for private industry to invest in research. That research cannot bear fruit in days. You have to invest, build labs, employ people to do research, keep encouraging them even when they fail and then produce technology. That is where your son will come in.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 08:16

ParGha wrote:
Viv S wrote:The INSAS is simple, effective and rugged, but its derivates haven't panned out quite as well, and its obviously no substitute for the Tavor.


It should be the other way around: Tavors are no substitute for the failure to produce INSAS to the rugged specs it was designed for. A Tavor, whose 5.56x45mm rounds are no different than INSAS's (and supposedly unsuited for COIN), has no real better future than the INSAS. Money which could have been better spent giving the current INSAS/AKM/Vz58 systems an edge (via optics and ruggedization), and/or on exploring truly revolutionary breakthroughs (caseless ammo, smart 20mm grenades, etc), is being wasted on something which makes very little difference.


I think too much has been made of one news item. Even if India seeks to import small arms they will compete with some indigenously manufactured stuff.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 09:13

tejas wrote:Once a private group gets comfortable producing an assault rifle they will definitely have a huge incentive to improve upon or develop a new product for the IA given the amount of money at stake. .


Who will provide the design and technology for the first order to be placed by the Indian armed forces from a private Indian manufacturer? Private industry in India has no indigenous arms technology. Either they to must import the tech or adopt what DRDO has developed. Or they will have to buy some company abroad. The companies abroad that are making money are not for sale.

If you read the news, the government is begging private industry to come in and look at technology that has been developed and invest in manufacture, or alternatively invest in research. Basically private industry in India has been hobbled for many decades and will not be able to jump in suddenly.

Unless an Indian private company buys off a foreign firm (like Mahindra's aerospace venture) I would anticipate a 15 to 20 year lag period before private industry is capable of meeting a big part if India's small arms needs. Until then it is OFB, DRDO and whatever we import. This much should be pretty clear to anyone who actually reads news from India. Rants won't help solve the problem although they might help you get rid of your personal anger and frustration about a sorry state of affairs. But then like many other Indians you are only solving your own problem by doing that.

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 930
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ParGha » 01 Dec 2011 09:28

shiv wrote:Unless an Indian private company buys off a foreign firm (like Mahindra's aerospace venture) I would anticipate a 15 to 20 year lag period before private industry is capable of meeting a big part if India's small arms needs. Until then it is OFB, DRDO and whatever we import. This much should be pretty clear to anyone who actually reads news from India.


Mmm... I would say it really depends on what kinds of technical expertise is present in India. When Gaston Glock started to prepare for the 1980s Austrian pistol tender, his company had zero small-arms development experience -- but it did have solid polymers and manufacturing expertise; he also made sure to consult with a wide body of civil, police and military experts in fleshing out what required to be done. The prototype was prepared in 3 months. Glock won the bid.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54698
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2011 09:34

yeah Glock had to only meet the stated tech reqmts. In India once you meet them new ones get added and no questions. If you have foreign location all is forgotten.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tejas » 01 Dec 2011 09:41

Shiv, the IA RFP is essentially admitting that DRDO/OFB do not have what it wants. My gripe is that the IA/GOI are saying we will import 66,000 rifles off the shelf and then want the private (foreign) manufacturer to help the OFB to manufacture the gun in India. Are you saying there is not a single private company in India capable of making a rifle even with help from abroad?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 09:41

Sorry. One last post.

I would like to make the connection between research, private industry, DRDO, foreign technology and profits

Only the DRDO does research in India. If the DRDO develops a grade of alloy that is good for a rifle, there are two further points to be considered.

1. That alloy may be "good" so that you can make small arms with it, but it may not be the best in the world. That means that the small arms made with that alloy would work, but may not have the service life or light weight of some alloy made by say the USA or Belgium.

2. If that alloy needs to be made into 1 million rifles, some industry has to be set up to make that alloy in bulk and shape it into rifle barrels. Someone will have to invest in the factories and workshops to do that. That someone will either have to be private industry or a government investment.

3. Now if a private industry wants that order for a million rifles, he does not have the alloy technology. So he goes hunting for the alloy. He finds that DRDO will give him the technology for their alloy free as long as he sets up the industry to make a million rifles. But the private player is looking for a future and profits. He asks, "Can I export this rifle?". He finds that the alloy is not the best in the world. He asks around and finds that the people who make those alloys are willing to sell the readymade alloy (not the technology) to him at low prices. So far so good. But then when he thinks of manufacture of rifle barrel he realises that 200 factories in the west have been doing that for years and will sell rifles at very low cost. He cannot profitably set up a plant using imported alloy to set up a factory that can sell to India and export also. So the private player sees DRDO tech as unprofitable for export and foreign tech as totally unprofitable unless he serves as middleman/sales promoter.

4. Finally, in the face of sanctions and delays and exhorbitant import costs the government sets up a plant to make the new DRDO alloy (good but not as good as the best) and a factory to make rifles out of that. Those rifles are never going to be equal to the best in the world. But there is almost no other option. By importing we pay high costs and set ourselves up for sanctions. Private industry is not enthusiastic. And the rifles made in India are cursed by Indians.

5.In the meantime research has to be funded to continue to improve the alloy so equal the best in the world. Private industry is not doing this. It has to be done by DRDO.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. And very few educated Indians seem to be discerning enough about India to figure out this story. Like I said part of this belongs in another thread in another forum if you know what I mean.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 09:47

tejas wrote:Shiv, the IA RFP is essentially admitting that DRDO/OFB do not have what it wants. My gripe is that the IA/GOI are saying we will import 66,000 rifles off the shelf and then want the private (foreign) manufacturer to help the OFB to manufacture the gun in India. Are you saying there is not a single private company in India capable of making a rifle even with help from abroad?

Whatever your gripe might be I would like to point out that very few companies in the world manufacture arms that can meet every need of the Indian army so a rant about India and Indians of the type you made when this discussion started says more about you than the arms manufacturing capability of India.

I would be willing to swallow my words if you can point me to any country in the world with a million man army and associated armed forces that manufacture every single weapon they need in house.

Part of the "griping" is a contemptuous attitude where inability to meet Indian requirements translates to Indian incompetence requiring a sharp tongue lashing. A person who gives a tongue lashing should presumably have all the answers and consider himself placed on some higher hallowed ground. Are you in such a position yourself?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 09:51

tejas wrote:Shiv, the IA RFP is essentially admitting that DRDO/OFB do not have what it wants. My gripe is that the IA/GOI are saying we will import 66,000 rifles off the shelf and then want the private (foreign) manufacturer to help the OFB to manufacture the gun in India. Are you saying there is not a single private company in India capable of making a rifle even with help from abroad?


What help will India get from abroad? Freedom to copy designs? Insights into how the alloys are made - the forging, the pre treatment, the post treatment? What parts will be supplied ready made by the foreign supplier in order to make sure that their own business does not die down from future Indian competition? Unless you are able to quote from previous Indian experience in this regard this question cannot be answered with a yes or no.

Anyhow read this post
viewtopic.php?p=1204222#p1204222

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 10:11

shiv wrote:
tejas wrote:Shiv, the IA RFP is essentially admitting that DRDO/OFB do not have what it wants. My gripe is that the IA/GOI are saying we will import 66,000 rifles off the shelf and then want the private (foreign) manufacturer to help the OFB to manufacture the gun in India. Are you saying there is not a single private company in India capable of making a rifle even with help from abroad?

Whatever your gripe might be I would like to point out that very few companies in the world manufacture arms that can meet every need of the Indian army so a rant about India and Indians of the type you made when this discussion started says more about you than the arms manufacturing capability of India.

I would be willing to swallow my words if you can point me to any country in the world with a million man army and associated armed forces that manufacture every single weapon they need in house.

Part of the "griping" is a contemptuous attitude where inability to meet Indian requirements translates to Indian incompetence requiring a sharp tongue lashing. A person who gives a tongue lashing should presumably have all the answers and consider himself placed on some higher hallowed ground. Are you in such a position yourself?



Shivji..
do you think all these "foren" orders are nothing but a ploy by the "govt" and "stakeholders" to grab as much of over flowing forex before world economy falls down along with India's forex reserve like a heap of cards? why suddenly every week there is a new RFP for every possible weapon systems... ?
Last edited by member_20067 on 01 Dec 2011 10:39, edited 2 times in total.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby tejas » 01 Dec 2011 10:13

Sorry Shiv boss, am already up past my bed time will have to respond tomorrow, peace out.

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 10:51

shiv wrote:
tejas wrote:Shiv, the IA RFP is essentially admitting that DRDO/OFB do not have what it wants. My gripe is that the IA/GOI are saying we will import 66,000 rifles off the shelf and then want the private (foreign) manufacturer to help the OFB to manufacture the gun in India. Are you saying there is not a single private company in India capable of making a rifle even with help from abroad?

Whatever your gripe might be I would like to point out that very few companies in the world manufacture arms that can meet every need of the Indian army so a rant about India and Indians of the type you made when this discussion started says more about you than the arms manufacturing capability of India.

I would be willing to swallow my words if you can point me to any country in the world with a million man army and associated armed forces that manufacture every single weapon they need in house.

Part of the "griping" is a contemptuous attitude where inability to meet Indian requirements translates to Indian incompetence requiring a sharp tongue lashing. A person who gives a tongue lashing should presumably have all the answers and consider himself placed on some higher hallowed ground. Are you in such a position yourself?


so basically if I curse at Sachin because he failed to score match winning run that means I should be able to out-perform his performance.. other wise my cursing is not valid?

Code: Select all

I would be willing to swallow my words if you can point me to any country in the world with a million man army and associated armed forces that manufacture every single weapon they need in house.

yes you are right..there is no other country... and don't take me wrong .. .I am not what you called Dhoti shivering etc. etc.. it is just that if you feel for your motherland unfortunately you end up scratching your head even at un-godly hours.. .

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 11:53

Prithwiraj wrote:
so basically if I curse at Sachin because he failed to score match winning run that means I should be able to out-perform his performance.. other wise my cursing is not valid?
.

LOL good one. Cursing Sachin only makes you feel better. That is precisely what I said about Indians cursing Indians. It makes them feel better. It does nothing in terms of definition or insight into the problem.

Its like my grandmother cursing a seevant for taking a day off when she never allowed him to take one day off. Unfair, unnecessary and only helped my granny feel better.

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 12:07

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
so basically if I curse at Sachin because he failed to score match winning run that means I should be able to out-perform his performance.. other wise my cursing is not valid?
.

LOL good one. Cursing Sachin only makes you feel better. That is precisely what I said about Indians cursing Indians. It makes them feel better. It does nothing in terms of definition or insight into the problem.

Its like my grandmother cursing a seevant for taking a day off when she never allowed him to take one day off. Unfair, unnecessary and only helped my granny feel better.


I don't think cursing Sachin makes me feel better... it makes me frustrated.. !!
this is a dangerous precedence.. we not only curse but also try to find the root of the problems.. solution to the problem is at the policy level ... so let me think.. this is something like.. the famous "Hirok Raja r Desh e " movie by Satyajit Ray...
"Porar Kono Sesh nai. .Porar Chesta Britha tai"... " Lame Translation "There is no end to wisdom so no point chasing it.."

.. what else do you propose as a overall community for us to do? Show us the light .. we will follow... :idea: ...

I have utmost respect for the seniors..so I am not attempting to look down upon anyone here

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 15:09

Prithwiraj wrote:I have utmost respect for the seniors..so I am not attempting to look down upon anyone here


We are going off topic, but let me just step back about 13-14 years to the beginning of this forum. This was the only place where people could come to for exchanging Indian military related information anywhere on the net.

But then, as now, there is no way of telling "senior" from "junior" or "newbie". Suppose some xyz logs in for exchanging information about the Indian armed forces, he has no way of knowing anything about "senior", "junior" "sub junior" etc.

So when anyone posts on here I believe that there must be a degree of responsibility towards the privilege of belonging to the community. Ideally one should ask if one does not know or give information if one knows. However if a person has a rant that is either misinformed or is hurtful to someone - he is not doing the community a favor. As a theoretical example -imagine someone who says "All DRDO personnel are clods. Those incompetent bums should all be shot". Such statement would clearly be hurtful to someone else whose father may work for DRDO. That apart a lot of people post misinformed rants or rants based on lack of information.

It is OK to be misinformed (all of us are to some extent) , but any rant is unnecessary because a misinformed person who asks nicely can be told nicely. A misinformed rant will have to be smashed on its head and the person who had the rant made to regret it for the long term good of the community. Only some rants on this forum are based on genuine inside knowledge - we are all amateur armchair generals and armchair marshals. But a large proportion of rants are irritating if they are based on bullshit in the first place. So the right thing to do is to state opinions, or ask questions politely. Rants are not needed.

The most consistently underinformed rants I (and other old fuddy duddies like me) have seen on this forum is this bogey of "give it to private industry" made by a series of people who just do not have a clue. They pick up the rant from some underinformed person off the forum - maybe even a teacher or a relative or colleague and come and vomit it on here.

A large number of people who come on to this forum are enthusiastic "well intentioned" jingos but do not really think aircraft are more complex than cars, and that rifles really don't need much more tech than steel pipes. Since most don't know the degree of complexity of the depth of technology they often start with a rant about the stupidity and incompetence of fellow Indians. If they are wrong, they need to be told.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 01 Dec 2011 15:26

ParGha wrote:
Viv S wrote:The INSAS is simple, effective and rugged, but its derivates haven't panned out quite as well, and its obviously no substitute for the Tavor.


It should be the other way around: Tavors are no substitute for the failure to produce INSAS to the rugged specs it was designed for. A Tavor, whose 5.56x45mm rounds are no different than INSAS's (and supposedly unsuited for COIN), has no real better future than the INSAS. Money which could have been better spent giving the current INSAS/AKM/Vz58 systems an edge (via optics and ruggedization), and/or on exploring truly revolutionary breakthroughs (caseless ammo, smart 20mm grenades, etc), is being wasted on something which makes very little difference.


The Tavor is lighter, more compact, modular, equipped with Picatinny rails and has better recoil characteristics. Also while its a good idea to build on the INSAS (the results though have apparently been less than satisfactory [?]), the SF's requirements were more pressing and the order size relatively limited.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Viv S » 01 Dec 2011 15:49

shiv wrote:Who will provide the design and technology for the first order to be placed by the Indian armed forces from a private Indian manufacturer? Private industry in India has no indigenous arms technology. Either they to must import the tech or adopt what DRDO has developed. Or they will have to buy some company abroad. The companies abroad that are making money are not for sale.


I don't believe the technical barriers to entry into the small arms business are quite as high as other segments of the defence market. If there is a time issue, technologies like chrome bore lining can be licensed from OFB, the rest is a matter of the design team's ingenuity.

saje
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 08 Oct 2010 16:28
Location: Bangalore

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby saje » 01 Dec 2011 17:27

While the INSAS may not have been upto the military's standards, I do hope that once IA gets it's new rifles it hands over it's INSASs' to the police forces. It's about time the police get rid of those disgusting .303s! Also, DRDO can continue tinkering with it and use the 'Pandu' as a guinea pig.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gaur » 01 Dec 2011 18:59

I see many posters and journos comming to the conclusion that IA doesn't want INSAS because it is not a good enough rifle. That is an incorrect assessment IMO.

The problem is that Army's requirements have changed.

Earlier IA's "ek goli ek dushman" made them modify full auto FN-FAL to semi auto SLR. Then IPKF experience made them want 3 round burst in INSAS (which is actually more difficult and costly feature to implement). But they still wanted a conventional battlefield rifle...a role which INSAS performs beautifully.

INSAS is a conventional battlefield rifle (like M-16)... conventional design, 5.56 NATO round, designed for shoot to incapicitate, 3 round burst instead of full auto. These were precisely the requirement of IA when INSAS was designed.
Coventional design because...my guess is that many Armies were (and still are) more comfortable with this tried and tested design. Also, designing a bullup or multibarrel configuration has its own complications.
Shoot to incapacitate because when an enemy dies, you are short of only one enemy. But when you injure an opponent, he has to be evacuated by at least 4 other enemy soldiers (many more in mountains) which leaves you with much depleted resistance to overcome. This, along with the psycological effect of your buddy beside you vomitting blood while screaming and bleeding all over you...it makes it difficult to concentrate on fighting not to mention the more important effect on morale.
3 round burst because of the obvious reasons of accuracy and ammo conservation. Battle can go on for a long time and ammunition is limited. So it is important that the soldier doesn't hold the trigger in heat of the moment.

Now these very features (5.56 round, no full auto, long length because conventional design) are undesirable.

But shoot to incapicitate doesn't work in CI ops because terrorists do not try to carry away their injured and full auto is required in CQB. Also, Kargil war showed that conventional battle rifles don't always work in Mountain warfare where CQB is frequent occurance. This is of special importance given our border with China.
Recently, TAR-21's reflex sight seems to have been very useful for CQB situations.

In short, INSAS is a very good rifle for conventional war in plains but the the above experiences seem to have changed IA's requirements. Now IA seems to want a rifle which caters to both CI and battlefield environment which brings us to requirements of higher caliber rounds (even capability to fire multiple calibers), compact design and full auto. So, neither INSAS nor IA is at fault. INSAS was a good rifle for the role it was designed, but the requirements have changed (just like SLR). Also, I agree (or hope) with Katare that imported rifles are unlikely to be
a replacement for INSAS. Unless DRDO is having serious problems with the multicaliber rifle it is developing for FINSAS, there is little chance of that.

PS: I am aware of the past problems faced by INSAS but they were because of shoddy manufacturing by OFB rather than any design issue. So even if we get TOT of a foreign rifle the shoddy manufacturing will still continue unless OFB is made to get its act together. So, while I don't want small arms to be manufactured by private sector (I shudder to think of an Indian Small arms industry lobby like that of US), there is certainly a need to crack whip on OFB.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2011 19:15

Viv S wrote:
shiv wrote:Who will provide the design and technology for the first order to be placed by the Indian armed forces from a private Indian manufacturer? Private industry in India has no indigenous arms technology. Either they to must import the tech or adopt what DRDO has developed. Or they will have to buy some company abroad. The companies abroad that are making money are not for sale.


I don't believe the technical barriers to entry into the small arms business are quite as high as other segments of the defence market. If there is a time issue, technologies like chrome bore lining can be licensed from OFB, the rest is a matter of the design team's ingenuity.


If the private company imports the design tech they will either have to manufacture exactly what the exporter supplies or they have to reach a separate agreement that they want the design only and will get some tech from DRDO. Which exporter would be ready to have his design ba$tardized cheaply for a hotch potch of his design and DRDO meterial? They may be willing to do that for some obsolete design. Better to just start copying the Tavor or something. If we do that we then come up against the tech barrier. if it is easy we cross it, make Tavor clones and piss off the OEM (like the Chinese do regularly). If we don't cross it, we make inferior copies. (Also done in China with no compunction)

On the question of "tech hurdles" - do we import special steels for OFB rifle barrels or do we make them in house. I really want to know the answer to that. For example we import the aviation grade aluminium for Tejas. Right now BR has a relevant news item. Colored emphasis mine

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=16982
We meet half of Defence needs indigenously

"Cost and time over-runs are due to several reasons. Technology denials, for one. We had taken for granted some technology and component support from abroad during the development phase of large projects. In some cases, either the technology was totally denied or assured components delayed for a long period, either way impacting the progress. Hence, denials impacted LCA, IGMDP, Main Battle Tank, Arjun, Electronic Warfare etc.

For example, in LCA, the wing is made of carbon fibre. The National Aerospace Laboratory, Bangalore, struggled to make it for long. The question was of technology maturity. There was a mismatch between technology maturity, industrial capability and project goals during the 1980s-90s, which has affected MBT, IGMDP etc."

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby koti » 01 Dec 2011 19:26

Coventional design because...my guess is that many Armies were (and still are) more comfortable with this tried and tested design. Also, designing a bullup or multibarrel configuration has its own complications.

Why many armies encourage conventional designs is because that is what is better for Assault. Assault as in men charging against an enemy and finally bayoneting them.
Bullpups cant do this.(not better atleast).

And most of these attacks are often over plains, so ducking is hardly possible. The only way to duck is to keep the head as low as possible. And 30 round mags or mags of higher caliber wont help here. This explains the 20 round Insas or Vietnam era STANAG or Sig 550/1 or G3 type magazines.
Also guess why Sterling SMG has the mag to its side.

Indian Orbit still believes in conventional assaults over its and its enemies plains. So Insas will be any day a better option then say Tar or AK.
Now SF is a different dimension.

silod
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby silod » 01 Dec 2011 22:45

Mr. Shiv,

You seem to be a big fan of DRDO and OFB and actually there is nothing wrong in this. I also respect DRDO and OFB for creating the job opportunities for many people. What these people do when they enter DRDO in another matter.
I normally do not post the comments because of the prople like Shiv who do not seem to respect what others are saying. I have a very strong bond with IA. My grandfather fought against Japs in Berma during WW-II. I lost three friends in Kargil in 1999. One of my very close relative lost his hearing during the same war. When I say that DRDO is a bunk organization, it is based on my conversations with my friends and relatives.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby negi » 01 Dec 2011 23:13

Shiv iirc we imported the forging machines from Steyr AUG required for the cold hammer forging process to make barrels for INSAS.

member_20453
BRFite
Posts: 613
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20453 » 01 Dec 2011 23:26

They say the RFP was sent to 40 companies? It's going to take a long time to findout which ones will be shortlisted and even longer to figure out which one to buy.

I think they should just quickly finish working on the Trichy Assault Rifle. Give it a collapsable buttstock like the MSMC, and quickly take it for trials. Wonder whats happening with the trichy rifle

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby member_20067 » 02 Dec 2011 00:51

The most consistently underinformed rants I (and other old fuddy duddies like me) have seen on this forum is this bogey of "give it to private industry" made by a series of people who just do not have a clue. They pick up the rant from some underinformed person off the forum - maybe even a teacher or a relative or colleague and come and vomit it on here.


instead wasting so much time and space it will be interesting to see what is the statistical failures of private industries in defense production.in India... without even giving a chance how can someone draw a conclusion that private profit minded organizations will have no clue about rifle manufacturing despite so many examples of successful weapons manufacturing firms all over the world? What am I missing here?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54698
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2011 03:22

Gaur, Good explanation. Only wish they acknowledge that INSAS was good for what they asked for early on and not snicker while ordering new weapons.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7919
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 02 Dec 2011 03:25

ramana wrote:Gaur, Good explanation. Only wish they acknowledge that INSAS was good for what they asked for early on and not snicker while ordering new weapons.

They (IA) are not snickering. The media is.


Return to “Mil-Tech Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests