INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 31 Jul 2011 15:35

Appearances can be deceptive.

The land attack Klub does 400 kg which is more than the brahmos.

the Novator Klub/Alfa/sizzler family is after all a descendant of the SS-N-21 Sampson ( derived from the Novator RK-55). the Klubs are essentially range reduced derivatives to allow export under MTCR controls. The Sampson had a nuclear role once upon a time.

by the way, primary task of Oscar class is and always was to take down U.S CVNs.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 01 Aug 2011 23:00

vishnu.nv wrote:darshhan,

The US can afford to have the true SSGN's which can attack land targets 1000's of km's away. In Indian context we may define SSGN's as the Bhramos/Klub/Nirbahay carrying SSN's. The missiles can be used for land attack as well as Anti Ship Missiles.

1 question to guru's. The Wikipedia states the Nerpa will be carrying nuclear capable Klub 3M/54 missiles. So can we arm these missiles with nuclear weapons?

Agreed.Even I think that nuke submarines that are exclusively SSNs are a waste of resources.Our attack submarines should have a land attack role.Infact even Los angeles class and virginia class now carry tomahawks.Exclusive use submarines are a thing of past.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Aug 2011 17:54

I am sure that with our ATVs and hopefully a few Akulas too,until we are able to build both SSBNs and SSGNs simultaneously,both N-subs will be able to carry N-warheads for Nirbhay/any LR cruise missile indigenously developed.What protocol exists between India and Russia for B'Mos/Klubs to be armed with N-warheads will be strictly classified,ven though both do not violate the MTCR.If we are also able to build/acquire a "B'Mos equipped AIP Amur/other Indo-Russian design,as only such subs will be allowd to carry B'Mos,we would have the capability to have both our N-subs and AIP subs carry part of our N-deterrent.This is what the Sino-Pak combine are engaged in,developing an AIP conventional sub-most probably on the Yuan class,of which 6 are on order,to be equipped with a sub-launched Chinese cruise missile,range far in excess of the MTCR 300km range limitations,,which will arrive as a "Paki " missile using the AQ Khan "stamp" of indigenous origin!

The N-subs are required to be able to deal with China in the Indo-China Sea and Pacific theatres on long voyages.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 30 Aug 2011 00:00

How many Arihant class are we going to deploy - Five or maybe Four & that too by 2015 going by this interview with the former Chairman of the AEC, Dr. M.R. Srinivasan. Add to that the INS Chakra. A total of 6 Nuclear Subs in the Indian Navy's fleet. The 2015 target feels a bit optimistic though, unless they've setup capability to manufacture them concurrently

On India’s nuclear submarine program

Dr. Srinivasan: The Department of Atomic Energy’s Rare Material Plant at Ratnahalli, near Mysore, is being further expanded to cater to India’s nuclear submarine program.

The first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant, sailed into the waters at Vishakapatnam in Andhra Pradesh in July 2009 and is currently undergoing sea trials. It is expected to be commissioned into the Indian Navy by the end of the year. Four submarines of a similar class will be commissioned into the Indian Navy by 2015.

The indigenous n-submarines have pressurized heavy water reactors designed by the Bhabha Atomic Research Center. The final production version was built by the Indira Gandhi Center For Atomic Research at Kalpakkam, near Chennai.

The submarines use enriched uranium which is fabricated at the Rare Material Plant.

http://www.asianscientist.com/features/ ... ru-centre/

reading the word is tricky, 4 similar to the 1st one or all 4 similar

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 16 Nov 2011 06:32

‘We can allay the fears'

When is the Pressurised Water Reactor, which uses enriched uranium as fuel, on board India's nuclear-powered submarine, Arihant, going critical?

I was actually hoping that it would be started up by the end of this year, but I am told now that it will be commissioned in January or February 2012. Some things are yet to be settled.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Nov 2011 12:34

October is gone and as is half of November, has any news arrived of the Chakra and when she will reach the Indian shores. Or will we be looking at a delay of another 6 months for internal paint jobs and the provision of rolls of toilet paper.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 16 Nov 2011 16:59

this is the most recent news available but it only says end of the year 2011

http://www.gg2.net/russia-to-supply-nuc ... _4246.aspx

RUSSIA will deliver a nuclear submarine to India by the end of the year, Russia’s navy chief was quoted as saying today by state news agency RIA.

India sees Russia as a strategic counterweight to China but New Delhi has been upset by repeated delays to major weapons orders from Moscow, including the Admiral Gorshkov heavy aircraft carrier.

The date for delivering the Nerpa submarine to India, Russia’s close economic and political partner since Soviet days, has repeatedly been put back.

“We shall definitely supply this vessel to the customer by the end of this year,” RIA quoted navy commander Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky as saying.

Vysotsky said a fully trained Indian navy crew were ready to receive the submarine, which some Russian media reported last year had already been handed over to India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Nov 2011 17:38

Perhaps the IN will be required to pay a ransom to get the Chakra by the end of the year.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 16 Nov 2011 19:24

Pratyush wrote:Perhaps the IN will be required to pay a ransom to get the Chakra by the end of the year.

It might already be here.. we don't know..yet..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2011 14:36

Latest Vayu says Arihant is out at sea on trials.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 24 Dec 2011 16:57

shiv wrote:Latest Vayu says Arihant is out at sea on trials.

Shiv sir, if it is true then its a golden mile stone. Any relevant link do you have....

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 24 Dec 2011 18:01

Hi Shiv, Been following ATV news for long, It would ge great if you can post some more news on the ARIHANT Sea trials.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2011 18:59

Accurate news of the ATV and Akula will be scarce for obvious reasons.A host of nations will be wanting to get the signatures of the two N-subs,and therefore delivery schedules,sea trials ,etc.,will be scarce and confusing-deliberately.Remember the reports about subs snoopin' of Kalpakkam some time ago? Anyway,the imminent arrival of the Akula will add to the festivities of the season and when the
Arihant is commisioned too it will be a great day for the IN and country.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2011 19:13

I have no news other than what you can read in this cellphone pic of the relevant page of Vayu. Click on image to enlarge

partha · Post by **partha** » 24 Dec 2011 19:34

shiv wrote:I have no news other than what you can read in this cellphone pic of the relevant page of Vayu. Click on image to enlarge

hmm... there was a news report in Feb which is also cited in the wiki article on Arihant. It has the exact words from this vayu article.

First nuke-sub undergoes trial
New Delhi, Feb 23, DHNS:
‘INS Arihant’ induction likely next year

One of India’s top secret defence projects for over three decades, ‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald.

Once inducted, ‘INS Arihant’ will be the third leg of the nuclear triad enabling India to have retaliatory second strike capability from the sea. At the defence research and development organisation’s annual awards function attended by Defence Minister A K Antony, DRDO chief V K Saraswat mentioned ‘INS Arihant’ as a significant technology achievement.
For obvious reasons Saraswat did not mention anything about the two other nuclear submarines, which DRDO is constructing at the moment.
The hull of the second boomer is under construction at an L&T facility in Gujarat. The Visakhapatnam shipyard was recently brought under the defence ministry to secretly carry out the construction activities.

Saraswat listed out developing Agni-5 with a range of 5,000 km, unmanned combat aerial vehicle, indigenous airborne early warning and control system and automatic under-ground and under-water vehicles as some of the key future challenges. Antony asked the DRDO to reduce long gestation period and cut down on time and cost overrun. “It is high time that DRDO shed its reticence in working in tandem with the private industry. We need the maximum possible synergy between various production agencies,” he added.

The above article published in Feb 2011 says sea trials began a few months ago

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2011 20:14

that was HAT (harbour acceptance trial) wherein power is supplied from outside to the sub from the pier and all systems are tested to extent possible. the reactor was not yet critical per reports at various points in 2011.

maybe they started the reactor recently and left harbour on the surface for initial tests.

partha · Post by **partha** » 24 Dec 2011 20:17

Yes, most probably that's the case. Looks like the sea trials with the actual reactor have begun! Also, as Philipsji has pointed out, there is always this deliberately misleading reports.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2011 10:00

I am sure they dont want EJ/Enviro goons leading a pack of fishing boats to blocade vizag harbour Kudankulam style demanding an end to this 'nuclear pollution' !

I expect another full 2 years of misleading reports and secrecy before one fine day the veil is lifted and it is inducted into IN!

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 25 Dec 2011 13:43

INS Arihant(ATV)
All we have to know that we have a SUB.
We have to keep closedoor on what it can do or can not do some things.
Sometime chiana and other nation can learn lot from news papers.
We have tomuch free press.
All we have know is more boats on pipeline.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Dec 2011 14:31

Hiten wrote:How many Arihant class are we going to deploy - Five or maybe Four & that too by 2015 going by this interview with the former Chairman of the AEC, Dr. M.R. Srinivasan. Add to that the INS Chakra. A total of 6 Nuclear Subs in the Indian Navy's fleet. The 2015 target feels a bit optimistic though, unless they've setup capability to manufacture them concurrently

The minimum required is 4 to maintain a credible minimum deterent. This allows at the minimum 1 to be operational while the rest are going refit/repairs etc. India is following the UK model.

We know that 2 others are already in various stages of construction and are said to be larger than Arihant.

arun · Post by **arun** » 25 Dec 2011 17:49

shiv wrote:I have no news other than what you can read in this cellphone pic of the relevant page of Vayu. Click on image to enlarge

Regards Arihant having gone out to the high-seas for trial, Vayu may have got it wrong.

Excerpt from interview of Dr. Srikumar Banerjee, Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission and Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy, on October 27, 2011 by T.S.Subramanian :

When is the Pressurised Water Reactor, which uses enriched uranium as fuel, on board India's nuclear-powered submarine, Arihant, going critical?

I was actually hoping that it would be started up by the end of this year, but I am told now that it will be commissioned in January or February 2012. Some things are yet to be settled.

Frontline

Further corroboration by Huma Siddiqui quoting CNS Adm. Nirmal Verma in an article in the Financial Express datelined Dec. 6, 2011:

“I had said that we will do so (commissioning of INS Arihant) in 2012 and by and large we are on track. A firm date can be given only when we have the sea trials which will happen from some months from now.”

Clicky

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 25 Dec 2011 18:40

What makes you think that both said the truth???

This is a nuclear sub and none is going to tell you what exactly is happening

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 26 Dec 2011 00:27

To be honest, whether or not Arihant is on sea trials is purely academic. At some point it will and this thing will get completed. What is more interesting is how GoI has solved the command and control issues. Till date, our deterrent has always been de-mated (or so they claim). With Arihant:

Will it really go on patrol with mated warhead missiles?
How does the GoI,and more importantly, MoD(which is hyper suspicious of defence personnel yelling "coup, coup") trust a sub captain with live nuclear warheads?
How is the launch authorised? Does the sub captain have latitude like the British commanders (I believe they are the only ones to have the authority to launch in a total doomsday scenario where there is no contact left?)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Dec 2011 04:35

The real acid test will be for the ATV to launch a ballistic missile (K-15) while submerged.This is what it is intended to do while remaining undetected.One presumes that future ATV variants will be larger,able to carry 12 missiles with MIRV warheads.ATV-1 and perhaps ATV-2 if of similar size,could be used as SSGNs once the larger SSBNs start coming out as planned.Until the submerged launches of our IRBM/ICBM are completed ,the ATV cannot be commissioned as a fully capable SSBN.

The large number of tests of the Russian Bulava missile must be borne in mind.Due to a variety of factors,production quality issues,a large number of initial tests failed,which saw the sacking of one of that country's foremost missile designers.In recent tests,the missile has been successful.All this time the SSBN has been commissioned and at sea.Therefore the significant difference must be noted,that the sub is perfoming to specs and is fully capable of being deployed operationally,but with or without its principal weapon system.In Russia's case,it already had an older less capable ICBM deployed and available.It now has the Bulava too.In India's case,we have only the K-15 as of now and it has to succeed.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 26 Dec 2011 06:40

LCA or Arihant(ATV)
If we have news tomorrow that both Lca/Arihant roll out and test are 100% perfact.Do you know how much cry will be from Astralia,china and nabours.
It's better they do all the test and do not say much.Once we have news we are building more subs
that mean eveary thing is fine and ready to go.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 26 Dec 2011 14:37

^ of course, can you reacall the international hue and cry raised when the first Keltron TV rolled out of the factory in Kerala

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 27 Dec 2011 11:13

kuldipchager wrote:LCA or Arihant(ATV)
If we have news tomorrow that both Lca/Arihant roll out and test are 100% perfact.Do you know how much cry will be from Astralia,china and nabours.
It's better they do all the test and do not say much.Once we have news we are building more subs
that mean eveary thing is fine and ready to go.

While there is a merit in wat u say, but wat i dont understand is why do we want run before learning to walk. Have we ever made IJT operation before launching in to LCA? Or madea conventional sub, instead of jumping directly to nuclear sub?

This is wat costing us dearly in making these two working for us. Agreed there were embargo, sanction etc, but why be so ambitious, sometimes it better to aim at something achievable, then going after a super duper block buster thing. These things are too basic common logic.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Dec 2011 12:28

ritesh wrote:
kuldipchager wrote:LCA or Arihant(ATV)
If we have news tomorrow that both Lca/Arihant roll out and test are 100% perfact.Do you know how much cry will be from Astralia,china and nabours.
It's better they do all the test and do not say much.Once we have news we are building more subs
that mean eveary thing is fine and ready to go.
While there is a merit in wat u say, but wat i dont understand is why do we want run before learning to walk. Have we ever made IJT operation before launching in to LCA? Or madea conventional sub, instead of jumping directly to nuclear sub?

This is wat costing us dearly in making these two working for us. Agreed there were embargo, sanction etc, but why be so ambitious, sometimes it better to aim at something achievable, then going after a super duper block buster thing. These things are too basic common logic.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 27 Dec 2011 15:53

krishnan wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html

Wat after marut? wasnt it phased out in 85 or so.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2011 16:20

ritesh wrote:
krishnan wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html
Wat after marut? wasnt it phased out in 85 or so.

HJT-16 Kiran.

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 27 Dec 2011 17:26

shiv wrote: HJT-16 Kiran.

It was a contemporary product & also a basic trainer right?.

Not to derail the thread any further, i was just implying that when u need to go to top of the pile, u have start from bottom, not somewhere in the middle and then get lost in trying to achieve the mighty odds.

The best thing for LCA & Arihant we be to get a tech partner, preferably countries like Brazil/ Israel/ Japan, so that the whole prog could speed ed up and brought to its logical conclusion. Established countries will be either not interested or would not like to part with the tech. Its better to collaborate and proceed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2011 17:41

ritesh wrote: Not to derail the thread any further, i was just implying that when u need to go to top of the pile, u have start from bottom, not somewhere in the middle and then get lost in trying to achieve the mighty odds. .

For LCA we started from the bottom. We had no experience in making composites. We had no experience in translating control laws into software code. But we were not rock bottom. We had built and flown metal aircraft successfully.

ATV: We had built subs under licence, but never one of our own. We had built nuclear power plants but never a miniature one for a sub. How much more "starting at bottom" is required?

There is no reason in my view to build a conventional sub before a nuke sub. But we had built them under licence in any case.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 30 Dec 2011 22:23

Documentation completed! Hope this is accurate

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111230.htm

"The signing ceremony happened on Thursday at the Bolshoi Kamen ship building facility in the (Far East) Primorye region where the Nerpa is now based," ITAR-TASS news agency quoted a senior Russian Navy official as saying.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 31 Dec 2011 04:26

OT

Not to derail the thread any further, i was just implying that when u need to go to top of the pile, u have start from bottom

like you should first start posting in deaf-n-dumn fora then indiadef fora and finally come to peearefff...

/OT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2012 08:19

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 332636.cms

India to achieve N-arm triad in February
TNN | Jan 2, 2012, 04.33AM IST

NEW DELHI: India will take a big step towards achieving a credible nuclear weapon triad in February when its first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant begins sea trials off Visakhapatnam.

Top defence ministry sources say the "sea-acceptance trials'' (SATS) of INS Arihant are slated to begin "towards end-February'' after the completion of its ongoing harbour-acceptance trials (HATS). "It will take at least six months of extensive SATS and missile trials before the boat is ready for commissioning into Navy,'' said a source.

With INS Arihant's induction, India for the first time will brandish the most effective third leg of the nuclear triad - the ability to fire nukes from land, air and sea. The first two legs revolve around the Agni family of ballistic missiles and fighters like Sukhoi-30MKIs and Mirage-2000s jury-rigged to deliver nuclear warheads. Only the Big-5 has nuclear triads till now, with a total of over 140 nuclear-powered submarines. America leads the pack with 71, followed by Russia with about 40, while China, the UK and France have around 10-12 each. India did get delivery of INS Chakra, the rechristened Akula-II nuclear-powered submarine 'K-152 Nerpa', from Russia on a 10-year lease last week. But while it will bolster the country's underwater firepower, it's not armed with nuclear-tipped missiles due to international treatises.

India's nuclear triad will be in place, as Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has declared, once INS Arihant is out at sea on "deterrent patrols''. It has been a long journey for INS Arihant since it was "launched'' at Vizag in July, 2009, with PM Manmohan Singh himself in attendance.

Each and every sub-system was checked and re-checked, along with high-pressure steam trials of all the pipelines, before the miniature 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor, fitted in a containment vessel on board the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, went "critical'' last year, said sources.

"HATS followed thereafter. Now, things are on track for SATS to begin in end-February,'' said the source. Simultaneously, fabrication work on the three follow-on SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear ballistic missiles), dubbed S-2, S-3 and S-4, is in full swing under the over Rs 30,000-crore advanced technology vessel programme. The second SSBN after INS Arihant is to be named INS Aridhaman, both of which loosely mean "potent destroyer of enemies''. They are to be armed first with the 750-km K-15 and at a later stage with the under-development 3,500-km K-4 SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles). INS Arihant has four silos on its hump to carry either 12 K-15s or four K-4s.

Navy wants to have three SSBNs and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines) in the long term, as reported by TOI earlier. The force is grappling with a depleting conventional underwater arm, down to only 14 ageing diesel-electric submarines.

Nuclear-powered submarines can silently stay underwater for months at end, unlike conventional ones that have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. India with a clear "no-first use'' nuclear doctrine needs survivable second-strike capability riding on SSBNs to ensure credible deterrence.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jan 2012 09:10

^^ Why does the article say that IN needs 3 SSBN in long term when it also mentions 4 new SSBNs being built ( S-1, S-2, S-3, S-4)?

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 02 Jan 2012 09:10

INS Arihant is itself S-2.

Rest of the 2 which are under manufacturing are S-3 & S4.

Cheers!!!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Jan 2012 09:12

INS arihant is S-1 as per the report

fabrication work on the three follow-on SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear ballistic missiles), dubbed S-2, S-3 and S-4, is in full swing

There were reports that INS arihant might be some kind of TD...or this is plain DDM

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jan 2012 09:32

^^Nothing much is going to be revealed.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jan 2012 09:50

I think that Arihant is more of a SSN (4x3+12 VLS for something like Brahmos or Klub) with secondary function of SSBN. The batches after S-2 to S-4 might be true SSBNs when we get 200MW reactor going.