Indian Military Aviation

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ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by ShauryaT »

Adm. Arun Prakash opines on role of military aviation.
The Philosophy of Air Power: Think Doctrine, not Hardware
Even after making allowances for the sensitivities of the IAF the answer lies, not in maintaining a stony silence on the issue of aviation roles & missions but, in discussing it in a professional and dispassionate manner; bi-laterally and even tri-laterally. Once they can arrive at an equitable and operationally viable formulation, the pall of suspicion that hangs over inter-Service relations will lift; with instant benefits for Jointness.

The Services must bear in mind that if they do not come to a mutually acceptable modus vivendi, for the optimal utilization, or sharing of precious air power, a bureaucratic decision may be thrust on them through political fiat. The recent offer of theRaksha Mantri to mediate in the Army-IAF dispute over tactical air power is a clear portent.

The IAF must takere assurance from the fact that it is the other two Services which need its support and not the other way round. The putative “Cold Start Doctrine” contemplated by the Indian Army is a good example. Apart from armour accompanied by self-propelled artillery for striking rapidly into enemy territory, the implementation of this doctrine would require large numbers of helicopters for mobility and the liberal availability of close air support by the IAF. Similarly, in the near future, the IN has to face the stark reality of the Chinese PLA Navy’s Anti-access and Area Denial (A2AD) strategy at sea. Essentially designed to counter the US Navy with a formidable ballistic and cruise-missile threat the A2AD strategy poses an equally menacing threat forthe IN.

With its force ofover 300 Sukhoi-30 and perhaps 200 MMRCAs supported by aerial tankers and AWACS the IAF is a powerful ally whose cooperation both the Indian Army and IN must actively seek. Instead of squabbling over hardware, the armed forces must rise to the doctrinal and strategic levels of thinking.

This is the time for the Indian armed forces to evolve Air-Land Battle and Air-Sea Battle Doctrines which will harness their synergy. The hardware “bun fights” might just vanish.

Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) is former Chief of Naval Staff
Viv S
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

Singha wrote:now that Jags are getting asraam it will pack a nasty bite for self-defence purpose, vs the dated matra 550. even better would have been topsight/elbithms + aim9x/python5 but I guess for cost reasons asraam was chosen.
Actually the Jaguar GR.3A (upgraded in 2000) was equipped with a Marconi (now SELEX) HMS cued to the Aim-9L.

Come to think of it, at least the Jaguar IM variant (if not others) could be converted into a decent interceptor - EL/M-2032 and HMSS, 4 to 6 Derby missiles plus 2 to 4 ASRAAMs (using racks), plus centreline jamming pod or fuel tank.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by navneeet »

Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

shiv wrote:
aharam wrote:
Ok Surya, I'll bite :-). As the Jag pilot, I would keep really low around 250 ft and relatively fast - between 280 - 350 knots. In this regime, the Jag still has great turn performance, and it is flying low enough to prevent a climbing dogfight. As the Mig 29 or M2K driver, I would have to dive into a low flying plane, shoot from above and pull out of the turn before I crash. Both the Mig 29 and M2K have much better climb performance, which is what they would use in such a dogfight. However, if the Jag declines a climbing dogfight and sticks close to the ground, the Mig 29 and M2K are forced into attacking in a dive. The scary part here is being the target of a fighter that is attacking in a dive - usually you get shot down by the attacker. However, if the Jag pilot keeps his wits about, he can weave during the dive attack and the Mig can't get too close to it because it can't pull out in time from the dive. If the Mig chooses to chase the Jaguar at this altitude in a turning dogfight, it will likely get shot down. Never get involved in a turning dogfight with a fundamentally slower plane at low altitude. The Jag has lower wing loading than either the 29 or the M2K. That said, I'd still prefer to be the Mig or M2K pilot, since I still hold the advantage - dive attack, if you miss, climb, rinse and repeat. As long as I have patience, I may win if the Jag makes a mistake. At least, I won't lose since the Jag can't chase me.

Incidentally, this was exactly what the F-4 phantom did in Vietnam, playing the role of the Jaguar against the attacking plane, which was the Mig-21. Once the F-4 dived to treetop level, the Mig 21 couldn't chase it because it was simply too dangerous. For a Jag, 250 ft is nominal altitude for a lot of their missions. For an F-4, it was not, so ground fire including small arms fire were a much bigger threat.

Cheers
aharam
Thanks for the funda Aharam. Very illuminating. The amazing thing about flying at 250 feet at say 350 kts (650 kmph/180 mps/600 feet per second) is that the ground is so close. My high school maths tells me that a MiG diving at a 5 degree angle closing in on a Jaguar flying 180 mps needs a forward vector of say 200 mps to "catch up" That would make his downward vector 60 fps (17.5 mps) That means a MiG diving catch up with a Jag with a forward velocity of over 700 kmph will be just 4 seconds or less from hitting the ground unless he remembers to pull up in time. The steeper the angle of dive, the better the profile to aim at but the faster the ground closes in. Scary stuff.
And when you take into account the poor situational awareness of the MiG-21 pilot thanks to its not so good view from the cockpit, and the lack of HOTAS controls, meaning that the pilot would need to look into the cockpit at the instruments selecting switches to arm before firing either a missile or cannons at the low-flying Jag, one can understand why pilot workload needed to be managed and reduced as much as possible in today's fighters.

Some of this has been sorted out on the Bison, but the LCA would still fare better in such a situation.
Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Viv S wrote:
Actually the Jaguar GR.3A (upgraded in 2000) was equipped with a Marconi (now SELEX) HMS cued to the Aim-9L.

Come to think of it, at least the Jaguar IM variant (if not others) could be converted into a decent interceptor - EL/M-2032 and HMSS, 4 to 6 Derby missiles plus 2 to 4 ASRAAMs (using racks), plus centreline jamming pod or fuel tank.
Very unlikely- the Jag IM's radome is tiny, and will give it just about adequate radar range to lock on to a ship or ground targets (after DARIN III upgrades) but will not be sufficient to allow it to use a Derby to its fullest range of ~ 60 kms.

Take a look at the size difference between the Jag IM's radome and that of a MiG-29..Jaguar IM and MiG-29 over water

The Jag IM earlier used the Agave radar which could detect airplanes (no mention of size of RCS) at 18-28 km and patrol boats at 40-55 kms. The EL/M-2032 while a much improved radar, still has the same antenna diameter, which means it most definitely will not be able to exploit the full range of the Derby.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by arunsrinivasan »

Newsflash from chindits blog - CCS clears Pilatus Trainer Contracts in addition to the MICA Missile contract. Good news on Pilatus, hope they sign quickly.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by merlin »

So earlier cost of $1.06B was deemed too expensive and the new cost of around $2B is not? Something doesn't sound right here.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

I see it as the paperwork being put in place for a large A330 buy now that life cycle cost, spares and technology are being brought into eqn vs just L1 flyaway cost.

I am sure we will order 6 initially and follow it up with another 12....khan has more tankers in a couple of middle east airbases than we have in the entire AF.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by member_20067 »

Singha wrote:I see it as the paperwork being put in place for a large A330 buy now that life cycle cost, spares and technology are being brought into eqn vs just L1 flyaway cost.

I am sure we will order 6 initially and follow it up with another 12....khan has more tankers in a couple of middle east airbases than we have in the entire AF.
Also any reasons behind Boeing not choosing to compete?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Vipul »

India clears €950 mn deal for missiles for Mirage 2000.

New Delhi India cleared a €950 million deal on Wednesday to procure 500 air-to-air missiles from a French firm for IAF's Mirage 2000 aircraft fleet.A Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) meeting chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh today cleared the deal to procure 490 MICA missiles manufactured by French firm MBDA for Euro 950 million, Defence Ministry sources said in New Delhi.

The missiles would be deployed on the 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft, which are already undergoing upgrades at French facilities under a €1.47 billion deal signed earlier this year.Under the deal, MBDA will have to do offsets worth 30 per cent of the deal meaning that they will have to invest 315 million Euros back in the Indian defence sector.

The Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) mandates that foreign vendors bagging deals worth over Rs 300 crore have to invest back at least 30 per cent of the contract's worth into Indian defence, civil aerospace and homeland security sector.

India signed a deal with French companies Thales and Dassault Aviation, which will take ten years to carry out mid-life upgrade of IAF's 51 Mirage-2000 fighters.

Two aircraft have already been flown to France for upgrades and the remaining would be modernised in India at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facilities here in India.

"The cost of the contract for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 with Thales is Euro 1,470 million while the cost of the contract with HAL is Rs 2,020 crores(around 340 million) Euro.

The upgrade of the aircraft is expected to be completed by mid 2021," Defence Minister AK Antony recently informed Parliament.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by aditya_d »

Prithwiraj wrote:
Singha wrote:I see it as the paperwork being put in place for a large A330 buy now that life cycle cost, spares and technology are being brought into eqn vs just L1 flyaway cost.

I am sure we will order 6 initially and follow it up with another 12....khan has more tankers in a couple of middle east airbases than we have in the entire AF.
Also any reasons behind Boeing not choosing to compete?

From the above article --- 'US’ Boeing, that was also included in the September 2010 request for proposal, opted not to compete for the tender.'
member_20067
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by member_20067 »

aditya_d wrote: From the above article --- 'US’ Boeing, that was also included in the September 2010 request for proposal, opted not to compete for the tender.'
yes I know .. I am asking the possible reasons for which Boeing option not to compete given the order size..and follow on options...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by member_20067 »

aditya_d wrote: From the above article --- 'US’ Boeing, that was also included in the September 2010 request for proposal, opted not to compete for the tender.'
yes I know .. I am asking the possible reasons for which Boeing opted not to compete given the order size..and follow on options...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by karan_mc »

Boeing was interested in USAF tanker competition and did want to get distracted from its price catch , may be 2 years down the line Boeing might be interested since they have secured the contract now
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by arunsrinivasan »

livefist - just posted a correction saying the Pilatus deal has not been approved by CCS but will be happening soon
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

boeing is a munna who will get orders for 150-300 new tankers under the KC-X program. so they dont really need to care about 10 here. the A330MRTT has to scrounge for 5 here and 5 there among EU and south/east asia. Aus has taken in a few.
Austin
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Upgrade completed by 2021 , why so quick time to just upgrade 51 Mirages ?

500 Mica for 50 odd M2K means 10 missile per aircraft , will we use it both for BVR and WVR or continue uses Matra for WVR and use Mica for only BVR.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shyamd »

French equipment will not go to PRC and TSP JF17 as a result of the order.
Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Prithwiraj wrote:
Singha wrote:I see it as the paperwork being put in place for a large A330 buy now that life cycle cost, spares and technology are being brought into eqn vs just L1 flyaway cost.

I am sure we will order 6 initially and follow it up with another 12....khan has more tankers in a couple of middle east airbases than we have in the entire AF.
Also any reasons behind Boeing not choosing to compete?
They were pre-occupied with the USAF tender for refuellers which is an order of magnitude larger than the IAF's order.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

US hadn't decided the tanker competition result by then. clearly boeing won't have continued the KC-767 line without the economics of the USAF order.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by member_20067 »

Austin wrote:Upgrade completed by 2021 , why so quick time to just upgrade 51 Mirages ?

500 Mica for 50 odd M2K means 10 missile per aircraft , will we use it both for BVR and WVR or continue uses Matra for WVR and use Mica for only BVR.
A part of that lengthy timeline is because of shifting the work to HAL --building the infrastructure...re-tooling etc...same as Scorpeone......it is a price we are paying for offsetting clause...we better use this learning or "ToT" to the fullest extent ..for future generations
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

How long will they take to upgrade the 60 odd Mig-29 to UPG standards , will be it lesser time since most upgrade will take place in India except for 2 prototypes , i think IAF BRD will do that.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by merlin »

Close to 2 mil euros per missile!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by nachiket »

The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time. Not only did they charge us $40 mil per aircraft but they are not even bothering to allot enough resources to upgrade more than 5 aircraft a year. At first I believed that the huge cost was because the weapon were included in the deal. Now it seems the MICA missile deal is separate. They took advantage of the IAF's situation. We couldn't do without the upgrade and they knew it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tejas »

Is it any wonder the French keep losing sales to the US? $2 million for a short legged MICA and $40 million for avionics upgrade per plane for the M2K. These prices are more than obscene. But it is the price we are forced to pay for short changing R&D funding in India. If the money has to be spent, might as well spend it at home.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Gurneesh »

^^ $40 mil will buy a LCA and considering that Mk2 should be ready by 2017, it would have made sense to just buy more LCA and let M2000's retire by 2025.

Another option could have been upgrading M2000 with LCA avionics (Similar to DARIN upgs). Even Israel was offering a 2032 based upgrade that was reported to be fairly cheaper but at that time people here speculated that it might not include weapons. But then this deals also does not.

Hopefully IAF and GOI are not stupid and there are some hidden deals in this or maybe it was done to sway the french away from JF-17 upg program.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tejas »

Unfortunately with the Kangress party the only hidden deal is money in a Swiss acct. BTW Wiki estimated price of AMRAAM 120-D at $700K i.e. 1/3 of MICA price. But I agree 100% with LCA purchase instead of Mirage upgrade. At the slow rate the M2Ks are being upgraded and the rapacious price the deal is rotten to the core.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

nachiket wrote:The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time. Not only did they charge us $40 mil per aircraft but they are not even bothering to allot enough resources to upgrade more than 5 aircraft a year. At first I believed that the huge cost was because the weapon were included in the deal. Now it seems the MICA missile deal is separate. They took advantage of the IAF's situation. We couldn't do without the upgrade and they knew it.
Well, if numerous media reports were to be believed, the IAF surely had another option - HAL/IAI. Might not have been as perfect but would've been close to current upg. standard (performance wise) and a lot cheaper. HAL has achieved a level of competence in upgrading products thanks to the LCA, MKI programs along with numerous other upgs (MiG-29/27, Jag, Shar), which would've used v.similar hardware. Don't see why a M2k with Derby/Python, EL-2032 and Dash V would not have worked.

$ 4.5 billion for upgrading 50 Mirages! Don't even see any uber AESA/IRST/Engine in this royal ride! They could've have gotten 50 spanking new MiG-29s or 2 sqds worth of MKI for this insanity. And we are yet to see the other weapons that will come with this package. :evil:

Hope they are somehow subsidizing the Rafale with this.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Prithwiraj wrote: A part of that lengthy timeline is because of shifting the work to HAL --building the infrastructure...re-tooling etc...same as Scorpeone......it is a price we are paying for offsetting clause...we better use this learning or "ToT" to the fullest extent ..for future generations
I think that India is only second to Japan in wanting to do maximum work on its own soil, even if it means that timelines are drawn as a result and costs go up.

People are jumping up and screaming looking at the 2021 date- but consider what has happened with the MiG-29UPG program as a comparison.

the MiG-29 Upgrade deal was signed in March 2008 and in late 2011 the first upgraded prototypes started flying in Russia. That was a tad more than 36 months after contract signature. When one accounts for the fact that MiG has been producing MiG-29SMT fighters till quite recently (for Algeria) the upgrade was quite straightforward for them and incorporated some Indian equipment. By end 2016 all MiG-29s in the IAF fleet (~63 upgraded in 5 years @ 12 per year).

Having Thales upgrade the first 2 Mirages within 40 months of the deal being signed is almost exactly what MiG did for the MiG-29UPG. We're already in 2012 and 3 years and 4 months from that means mid 2015 for the first upgraded Mirage to fly in France. Thereafter, once 2 more Mirages are to be upgraded in India with French help, and HAL technicians are to be trained for the same..then HAL will upgrade the rest at the rate of 1 Mirage per month. That gives HAL only 47 months (~4 years from late 2016 or early 2017) to complete the upgrade of ~47 Mirages (if we don't suffer any more attrition to the type).

So if 2021 sounds bad, the only culprits are the MoD and Dassault/Thales who were so stubborn from their respective side of the negotiations. Otherwise, both teh MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000-5 upgrades have almost the same amount of time taken for each fighter to be upgraded by the OEM and then by HAL.

We'll now have had local upgrade facilities for the MiG-21 Bison (which came with huge delays as well), Jaguar DARIN II and III, Sea Harrier LUSH, MiG-27UPG (only 40 were upgraded, but by now all should be in service), MiG-29UPG and now Mirage-2000-5.

How has the ToT and assembly experience on the other fighters' upgrade helped us? In some cases, a lot, in others not quite so much except for giving work to HAL. In the case of both the MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000-5 the 30% offsets should've given us something back at least.

Reminds me, what has MiG given related to offsets for the $900 million it got for the MiG-29UPG program?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

nachiket wrote:The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time. Not only did they charge us $40 mil per aircraft but they are not even bothering to allot enough resources to upgrade more than 5 aircraft a year. At first I believed that the huge cost was because the weapon were included in the deal. Now it seems the MICA missile deal is separate. They took advantage of the IAF's situation. We couldn't do without the upgrade and they knew it.
read up on the upgrade and it's timelines before saying that they screwed us or that THEY didn't allot enough resources. as I mentioned in my previous post, the timelines for both the MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000-5 upgrades are nearly teh same.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

Cain Marko wrote:Well, if numerous media reports were to be believed, the IAF surely had another option - HAL/IAI. Might not have been as perfect but would've been close to current upg. standard (performance wise) and a lot cheaper. HAL has achieved a level of competence in upgrading products thanks to the LCA, MKI programs along with numerous other upgs (MiG-29/27, Jag, Shar), which would've used v.similar hardware. Don't see why a M2k with Derby/Python, EL-2032 and Dash V would not have worked.
Its possible yes, but I doubt that the MoD would have tried to deliberately exclude the OEM from the upgrade. If things do go wrong it becomes extremely hard to bail the project out. And the Indian govt. has traditionally been quite risk averse.

This is an apt example of why the Dassault had an inordinate degree of leverage by virtue of being the OEM.


A mass of tangled wires, loose plates and scaffolding surround a shabby, ferrous hulk sitting at a dry dock at the public sector Hindustan Shipyard Ltd. (HSL) in Visakhapatnam.A few workmen amble around the yard disregarding the chaos around. Welcome to the navy's 'dry dock queen', the INS Sindhukirti.

For close to five years, this submarine has been sitting in a medium refit-conducted when a submarine completes half its operational life of 15 years-manned by a skeletal naval crew. She can rejoin the fleet only after another five years by which time this steel shark would have spent a third of her useful life of 30 years, in a refit. "We have written off this submarine," shrugs a naval official.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Navy ... 20342.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

nachiket wrote:The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time.
Just a quick comment:
We feel the French have screwed us big time
We feel the Russians have screwed us big time over Akula and Gorshkov
We feel we are screwing ourselves big time with DRDO, HAL, OFB
We feel the US supplies things in time but screws us big time by giving Pakistan the same stuff for free

What options do we have? Other than an all round screwing that we are getting anyway? :D
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by nachiket »

shiv wrote:
nachiket wrote:The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time.
Just a quick comment:
We feel the French have screwed us big time
We feel the Russians have screwed us big time over Akula and Gorshkov
We feel we are screwing ourselves big time with DRDO, HAL, OFB
We feel the US supplies things in time but screws us big time by giving Pakistan the same stuff for free

What options do we have? :D
Shiv saar, you are trying to apply piskology where there is no need. I like to look at individual deals while forming such opinions. The Mig-29 upgrade deal for example seems to be very good value for money. The M2k upgrade deal appears quite the opposite, although I'll try to have another look at the timelines as Kartik suggested.
We feel the Russians have screwed us big time over Akula and Gorshkov
There are certainly big questions over their conduct in those deals, particularly Gorshkov wouldn't you say?
We feel we are screwing ourselves big time with DRDO, HAL, OFB
Never said that anywhere. In fact the more we start to rely on them the better for us in the long term.
We feel the US supplies things in time but screws us big time by giving Pakistan the same stuff for free
It is a fact that they give stuff to pakistan for free. So how are we supposed to feel about it? At least the deals with them are running on schedule and on budget (C-130J, P-8I).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

New missiles for Mirage jets for USD 1.23 bn approved
Though the CCS approval to the deal has come as a New Year gift for the IAF, the actual contract signing will take about a month from now, sources said.

The contract also envisages an offsets clause under which MBDA will plough back 30 percent of the deal -- USD 360 million -- in India's defence, aviation and homeland security sectors.

India had in July last year signed a USD 2.4-billion with Thales and Dassault for upgrading the Mirages with night vision goggle-compatible glass cockpits, advanced navigational systems, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radars, fully integrated electronic warfare suites and advanced beyond visual range (BVR) capability.

Two of the planes will be upgraded in France by Dassault, two in India with French help and the remaining 47 entirely by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The upgrade of the entire fleet will take nine years. The first two Mirages have already been flown to France.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony had recently informed parliament that the Mirage upgrade will be completed by mid-2021.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
nachiket wrote:The pathetic 10 year upgrading time can only be explained by one thing. The french screwed us over. Big time.
Just a quick comment:
We feel the French have screwed us big time
We feel the Russians have screwed us big time over Akula and Gorshkov
We feel we are screwing ourselves big time with DRDO, HAL, OFB
We feel the US supplies things in time but screws us big time by giving Pakistan the same stuff for free

What options do we have? Other than an all round screwing that we are getting anyway? :D

:rotfl:

The Brits are watching. They do not like to be left out.

And, of course the Caliphate ......................
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

nachiket wrote: Shiv saar, you are trying to apply piskology where there is no need.
Nothing to do with you nachiket. Just a joke. A badly timed one maybe, but just a joke 8)

A joke on how hopeless things seem to be if you take all forum members views of who is screwing India and put them on one list.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

>> A part of that lengthy timeline is because of shifting the work to HAL --building the infrastructure...re-tooling etc...same as Scorpeone.

I dont understand what India or HAL gains by this slow process of setting up a upgrade line here and doing it over 10 years!! as it is HAL is overwhelmed with work in jaguars, tejas, hawk, mki, helicopters and soon the MRCA. they have hardly anything to gain from this imo...if dassault could do it quicker it should have been completely done over there in batches of 10 a year maybe which even the french with their 35 yr work weeks and long lunch breaks should have managed! pretty much all the new eqpt is foreign so there is no need for intensive interaction with drdo on this.

once the upg was done by Dassault the BRD facilities could have been set up.

I can only hope its some kind of accounting gimmick to pay the french for help on missile and nuclear submarine tech 'under the table' ... I am clutching at straws I know... :((
Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

Cabinet clears Rs 6,600 crore French missile deal
........
Sources say another major defence deal, the acquisition of 75 Swiss turbo-prop aircraft to train IAF rookie pilots for over Rs 3,000 crore, is likely to be cleared next week. IAF wants to induct the 75 Pilatus PC-7 basic trainers by 2013-14 since its 114 piston-engine HPT-32 aircraft have been grounded since August, 2009, due to repeated engine failures, leading to training of pilots being truncated.

TOI had earlier reported that all decks had been cleared for the MICA and Pilatus deals, even as the final calculations are underway to select the ``lowest bidder'' between French Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon for the mega MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 top-notch fighters at a cost likely to touch $20 billion.

The MICA systems will be fitted on IAF's 51 Mirage-2000s, which are to be progressively upgraded with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator).
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The overall Mirage upgrade project cost will cross Rs 20,000 crore, and it will take over a decade to be completed. This has led to some criticism that it would probably have been better to go in for new fighters. IAF, however, swears by the Mirage-2000 fighters, which have had an excellent track record with the force.........
member_20067
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by member_20067 »

Singha wrote:>> A part of that lengthy timeline is because of shifting the work to HAL --building the infrastructure...re-tooling etc...same as Scorpeone.

I dont understand what India or HAL gains by this slow process of setting up a upgrade line here and doing it over 10 years!! as it is HAL is overwhelmed with work in jaguars, tejas, hawk, mki, helicopters and soon the MRCA. they have hardly anything to gain from this imo...if dassault could do it quicker it should have been completely done over there in batches of 10 a year maybe which even the french with their 35 yr work weeks and long lunch breaks should have managed! pretty much all the new eqpt is foreign so there is no need for intensive interaction with drdo on this.

once the upg was done by Dassault the BRD facilities could have been set up.

I can only hope its some kind of accounting gimmick to pay the french for help on missile and nuclear submarine tech 'under the table' ... I am clutching at straws I know... :((
I just have a hunch (hope I am wrong)... we are looking at some of the biggest scams and kick backs which will dwarf 3G scams...using the china story we are somehow outspending ourselves...projecting as the biggest spender of defense.. trying to be a blue water navy etc. The threat perception will probably remained unchanged on ground even after inducting all the current gadgets... just curious if we are spending so much to counter China or prevent it from attacking us .. will this enhanced capability will also provide us the political will to retaliate against any future Pakistani mischief? ... I might just be rambling...so how things don't add up... may be I am too trivial to even figure all these out.. :((
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